Unanswered questions


Zodiackiller.com Message Board: General Zodiac Discussion: Unanswered questions

By Lapumo (p88.as2.dungarvan1.eircom.net - 159.134.234.88) on Tuesday, September 26, 2000 - 05:09 pm:

Tom
Am new to the board.Congradulations on a superb site.Also note that graysmith is interested in what people might like to see him address in his follow-up.So by way of getting involved in discussions, would like to throw the following open to all.Firstly most of my knowledge of this case comes from the book.While inevitable given the nature of the case this book was going to leave us with more questions than answers, Must confess to being disappointed when what some might see as interesting clues were not dealt with sufficiently.Can anyone help with the following.
1. The missing door handle reappears- Yes we are given an explanation on what graysmith believes may have happened but this is hardly sufficient given the importance of what is implied if he was wrong.Believe the lynchpin of this case is close to darlene.
2.Lee's appearence at the time in no way matches
the photofit issued after the stine killing. How is this explained?
3.Two interesting clues from the herb cane cypher
are not discussed in any detial. "see a name below killers film" seems to be a clue --the film
Badlands about charles starkweather was playing at the time .Were any conclusions drawn from this
4. These fools shall meet killer please ask lunblad" suggests lunblad met killer does it?
5. In 71 lee was asked to give handwriting samples
including "all people who shake hands shake hands like that". Dont see any reference anywhere else to this. Was this something held back by police?
6. In the chapter on Andy Walker graysmith says that this name has been changed ???
7. Finally, for now, can anyone tell me when Lawerence Kane became a suspect and/or if hes mentioned in the book.
8. The whole area around the ferrin killing as dealt with in the book is full of holes, unless graysmith is actually going to identify Zodiac in his next book he should attempt to clean this mess up.Any thoughts anyone

By Jake (Jake) (spider-wg074.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.196.54) on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 02:57 pm:

Doesn't look like anyone else is taking this one, so I'll answer.

Lapumo wrote:
"1. The missing door handle reappears- Yes we are given an explanation on what graysmith believes may have happened but this is hardly sufficient given the importance of what is implied if he was wrong.Believe the lynchpin of this case is close to darlene."

The short answer is that Ferrin was in all likelihood targeted at random, like all the other Z victims. For the long answer, see the "Vallejo" page on my site -- it's linked below. Graysmith's explanation of the door handle is probably one of the few things he got right in his treatment of the BRS attack.

"2.Lee's appearence at the time in no way matches
the photofit issued after the stine killing. How is this explained?"

My explanation is that Allen didn't kill Stine.

"3.Two interesting clues from the herb cane cypher
are not discussed in any detial. "see a name below killers film" seems to be a clue --the film
Badlands about charles starkweather was playing at the time .Were any conclusions drawn from this
4. These fools shall meet killer please ask lunblad" suggests lunblad met killer does it?"

Graysmith's "solution" to the 340-character cryptogram is widely believed to be bogus. One of our frequent posters, Glen, gave a pretty good explanation as to why, but you can probably figure it out yourself if you try to follow Graysmith's own key -- there isn't one. It's extremely subjective, and there's no pattern.

"5. In 71 lee was asked to give handwriting samples
including "all people who shake hands shake hands like that". Dont see any reference anywhere else to this. Was this something held back by police?"

This phrase, a perversion of a quote from the Mikado, appeared in a July 1970 letter from the Zodiac. It's transcribed in Graysmith's book, and reproduced on the "Rare Zodiac Letters" page on this site.

"6. In the chapter on Andy Walker graysmith says that this name has been changed ??? "

"Andrew Todd Walker," "Robert Hall Starr," and "Donald Jeff Andrews" are all pseudonyms. You can learn more about them on the "Suspects" page of this site.

"7. Finally, for now, can anyone tell me when Lawerence Kane became a suspect and/or if hes mentioned in the book."

Kane was first developed as a suspect by a cop named Harvey Hines in 1973. He was supposed to appear in Graysmith's book, I've heard, but the publishers cut that section because they didn't want to print a 500-lb hardcover.

"8. The whole area around the ferrin killing as dealt with in the book is full of holes, unless graysmith is actually going to identify Zodiac in his next book he should attempt to clean this mess up.Any thoughts anyone"

My thoughts are that the whole "Darlene knew her killer" theory is a bunch of baloney. The events and aftermath of the killing do not indicate in any way that either Ferrin or Mageau knew the attacker -- it's only in Graysmith's book that such a story arises.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Lapumo (p31.as1.dungarvan1.eircom.net - 159.134.234.31) on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 03:11 pm:

Jake, appreciate your time. Thanks

By Ed N. (spider-wn052.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.197.172) on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 05:12 pm:

Jake wrote:

My thoughts are that the whole "Darlene knew her killer" theory is a bunch of baloney. The events and aftermath of the killing do not indicate in any way that either Ferrin or Mageau knew the attacker -- it's only in Graysmith's book that such a story arises.

I think that the first time a Darlene-Z connection was hinted at was in "One Killing Zodiac Might Have Planned Carefully," by Bill Wallace (San Francisco Chronicle, 5-4-1981, p. 6). Wallace wrote:

In at least one Zodiac murder case, however, The Chronicle has pieced together evidence indicating that the Zodiac not only knew his victim for several months before he shot her to death, but might have actually stalked her and lured her to her death with a late-night telephone call.

He went on to mention what we are all familiar with from Zodiac: someone was watching her apartment, she might have received a call from Z (!) just minutes before her death, someone stalked her at Terry's, and someone made anonymous calls to her friends and relatives just after her murder. It would appear that this is where Graysmith got this idea.

Lapumo asked the following anachronistic question:

3.Two interesting clues from the herb cane cypher are not discussed in any detial. "see a name below killers film" seems to be a clue --the film Badlands about charles starkweather was playing at the time .Were any conclusions drawn from this

Non sequitur. The 340-cipher was mailed to the Chronicle in November 1969, Badlands came out in 1974, and Graysmith "solved" the cipher in 1979. Your chronology is way off on this one, and the "clue" from the "solution" is bogus in any case (Glen's posts explain why), so your question is meaningless.

Lapumo also wrote:

6. In the chapter on Andy Walker graysmith says that this name has been changed ???

Jake answered:

"Andrew Todd Walker," "Robert Hall Starr," and "Donald Jeff Andrews" are all pseudonyms. You can learn more about them on the "Suspects" page of this site.

"Robert Hall Starr" is Arthur Leigh Allen. "Donald Jeff Andrews" is Richard Marshall. "Andrew Todd Walker's" name has never been published before, so we'll just leave his name pseudonymous.

By Dambuster (line00f6.kdt.de - 195.8.225.246) on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 08:43 pm:

Tom,
Stromjunkie is here, and not in Dreamland.

Btw, how can you explain us the difference of your HALLOWEEN (Avery) card compared to other sources ?

More precisely, the different number "14" on your card and on Mr. Graysmith's & Mr. Penn's ?

P.S.
You will see this number on the skeleton hand.
(Not to mention the missing "orange" pumpkin)
Can you clear the air for us ?
Thanks in advance

By Tom Voigt (aca1eb6b.ipt.aol.com - 172.161.235.107) on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 09:19 pm:

The copy I have was made after the pumpkin was removed, apparently. I can't tell a difference with the "14."
SFPD allowed me to copy their photostat. I doubt they allowed Graysmith and Penn the same consideration. (In fact I know they didn't.)

By Stromjunkie (squid1w.kdt.de - 195.8.224.38) on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 09:28 pm:

Well, that's pretty strange (now really!)
Would you be so kind and post the other fragments of this Xtra special Z communiqe ?

If not for me, than possibly for people with more education ?

Thanks in advance

By Tom Voigt (aca1eb6b.ipt.aol.com - 172.161.235.107) on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 09:50 pm:

Why is it strange?
SFPD peeled off the pumpkin to see if there was a message underneath. I was allowed a copy that was made after the peeling.

I'm not interested in posting it again.
If you aren't sharp enough to save these images on your computer, that's your bad luck.

By Anika (line0783.kdt.de - 195.8.255.131) on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 11:19 pm:

>>>SFPD peeled off the pumpkin to see if there was a message underneath. I was allowed a copy that was made after the peeling.<<<

I think you dream a little bit too much.

By Tom Voigt (ac8bbccb.ipt.aol.com - 172.139.188.203) on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 11:33 pm:

OK, so you think I somehow manufactured a fake card to fool idiots like you?

By The Icarus Network (fotonik20.mc2.chalmers.se - 129.16.41.105) on Thursday, September 28, 2000 - 03:32 am:

EdN

We heard some rumours about a new Z-website.Are you really in the progress of publishing one with some articles/media? Somebody told us that you are about to post additional comments…..
There's the possibility that you've posted a text that would answer our questions, but sadly we haven't read this amazing MB in its entirety, so excuse us if we ask questions which have been answered elsewhere.

Regards,

TiN

By Ed N. (spider-wn062.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.197.177) on Thursday, September 28, 2000 - 10:00 am:

I have been wondering just how I will do this website, and there certainly seems to be some interest. As I'm sure you know, your average library's microfilm readers/copiers are not the best, and so a good percentage of my copies of those old Z stories are too dark, too light, etc etc. Plus, scanning each one to download would probably blow out my bandwidth in short order, and so it was suggested that I transcribe them. Even that is a tremendous amount of tedious work, so what I have been thinking is that I shall post, at the very least, the title of each story, along with date and newspaper etc, with general comments about it. Perhaps I will end up transcribing the more important stories anyway. What do you think? Any suggestions?

By Jonathan (spider-mtc-td041.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.104.166) on Thursday, September 28, 2000 - 10:46 am:

Does anyone know what became of the man who witnessed Zodiac make the call the night of the blue rock springs attack? Was a sketch ever made based on his recollection?

By Jake (Jake) (spider-th034.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.213.59) on Thursday, September 28, 2000 - 11:18 am:

Ed wrote:
"Perhaps I will end up transcribing the more important stories anyway. What do you think? Any suggestions? "

I'd be glad to help in any way I can, and even to host some of the pages on my server space, if necessary.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the zodiac Speaking..."

By Jake (Jake) (spider-th034.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.213.59) on Thursday, September 28, 2000 - 11:20 am:

Jonathan wrote:
"Does anyone know what became of the man who witnessed Zodiac make the call the night of the blue rock springs attack? Was a sketch ever made based on his recollection?"

I'm given to understand that no one was ever able to locate this man. I've never seen him mentioned in any source other than Z's letter and Graysmith's book.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking

By Tom Voigt (ac9ec435.ipt.aol.com - 172.158.196.53) on Thursday, September 28, 2000 - 11:23 am:

To answer Jonathan's question, the story of the phone-call witness came from Zodiac. Was this another ruse? Nobody could ever corroborate Z's claim of a witness.

By Jake (Jake) (spider-wg083.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.196.58) on Thursday, September 28, 2000 - 03:41 pm:

Ed N. wrote:
"I think that the first time a Darlene-Z connection was hinted at was in "One Killing Zodiac Might Have Planned Carefully," by Bill Wallace (San Francisco Chronicle, 5-4-1981, p. 6). Wallace wrote:

In at least one Zodiac murder case, however, The Chronicle has pieced together evidence indicating that the Zodiac not only knew his victim for several months before he shot her to death, but might have actually stalked her and lured her to her death with a late-night telephone call.

He went on to mention what we are all familiar with from Zodiac: someone was watching her apartment, she might have received a call from Z (!) just minutes before her death, someone stalked her at Terry's, and someone made anonymous calls to her friends and relatives just after her murder. It would appear that this is where Graysmith got this idea."

I've wondered just where that "pieced-together evidence" came from. Graysmith first copyrighted his book in 1976, and obviously was interested in the case before then. Since Paul Avery never mentioned this evidence, I doubt that he investigated it, and since Graysmith was still at the Chron in '81, I hypothesize that he was the source of this info, having gotten it from Darlene's sisters.

Again, this is hypothesis, so take it with a grain of salt.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Lapumo (p166.as1.virginia1.eircom.net - 159.134.234.166) on Thursday, September 28, 2000 - 04:25 pm:

Ed, you cleared up my question on Andy Walker. His name was never released. So graysmiths book -Andy Walker -this site Andy Walker which is why I asked the original question.
As far as Badlands timing -this was something I had read in another book as it happens my main point concerned clues in the 340 cypher, which as it turns out is also a waste of time. My interest in the Ferrin/Mageau section of this case concerns the unanswered questions and different accounts rather than any particular theory. I do however,believe having this section cleared up could give a more definitave direction to the search for Zodiac.
The first question here is the call Darlene recieved, either purposely or accidently this led to her death. I take it nobody ever determined where or from whom this call came? only that it came from someone she knew.It was important enough to ask her babysitters to stay and to apparently lie as to the reason.Supposedly for fireworks-but she had no money.I see on Jakes Vallego page Mageau says for something to eat but the intended going to a party later seems strange.
Then we have conflicting reports as to as to how and why they ended up at BRS. were the followed or not? Last two points -Jake may be right as to the "missing door " handle but what bothers me is
no definative answer as to whether the handle was in the car or not.Surely the position of all items at a murder scene are accounted for.Lastly this section becomes important in relation to the first murders. Why wait until now to "take credit"
for the first Murders? Why waist no time in taking credit immediately almost for these shootings?

By Ed N. (spider-tq041.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.201.61) on Thursday, September 28, 2000 - 06:02 pm:

Jonathan wrote:

Does anyone know what became of the man who witnessed Zodiac make the call the night of the blue rock springs attack? Was a sketch ever made based on his recollection?

A story entitled "Police Seek Slaying Aid" appeared in the Vallejo News-Chronicle (8-5-1969, p. 1), which reported:

Vallejo police today appealed to a local man who may have seen the killer of three young persons and his car to contact the police department.

Since Z claimed that the witness had told police his car was brown, and since the police in this story indicate they were unaware of such a witness, we can only conclude that either:

1) Z made it up;

2) There really was such a witness, and Z just assumed that he told the police about his car.

I think Tom's right. It was just a ruse by Z to have them waste time looking for someone who didn't exist.

By scott (exchange.thebernsteincompanies.com - 216.33.206.14) on Monday, October 02, 2000 - 10:10 am:

If there was no witness, who told police Z was driving a brown car. How did police get this info. Zodiac just would not volunteer it.

By Ed N. (spider-wd012.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.193.152) on Monday, October 02, 2000 - 10:36 am:

The information obviously came from Mageau, the only surviving witness to that attack.

By Douglas Oswell (199.251.68.7) on Monday, October 02, 2000 - 11:21 am:

I believe that Mageau later referred to the car as "tan," which would place it somewhere between a medium and dark brown. Sure enough, the morning after the attack the Vallejo Times-Herald was reporting that the assailant drove a brown car. That information could only have come from Mageau, in my opinion.

By jena (spider-mtc-td012.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.104.152) on Monday, October 02, 2000 - 09:10 pm:

Most of us here like facts... Anyone know for sure who reported the car color to police or if it ever really took place? I hate assumptions there not much help unless you can back them up with the facts!

By Ed N. (spider-wc052.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.193.42) on Monday, October 02, 2000 - 10:55 pm:

So do we. I don't have the report, so I can't tell you for sure. However, it's pretty obvious (if you have been following the recent posts) that it must have been Mageau. There was no passerby who ever came forward, and Darlene was dead. Ergo, Mageau.

By scott (exchange.thebernsteincompanies.com - 216.33.206.14) on Tuesday, October 03, 2000 - 03:50 am:

If nobody knows for sure where the info about the brown car came from, could Zodiac have written it in his letter as misleading info and the police assumed it was truthful. If Mageau was the source how could he identify z's car was brown in the dark. It would be hard to tell with no light. I could see if saying it was a dark color car but how could he tell the difference among black, brown or any other dark color.

By Jena (spider-tf022.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.197.182) on Tuesday, October 03, 2000 - 03:24 pm:

question: has Mageau ever undergone a lie detector test? I'm thinking I'd love for him to answer some questioned. Top of the list would be:
1) Did you know your attacker?
2) Did you see the vehicles color /was it brown?
3) Did you know the man stalking Darlene?
and the list goes on... Thanks , J

By Jake (Jake) (spider-tk054.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.206.199) on Wednesday, October 04, 2000 - 08:22 am:

Jena wrote:
"has Mageau ever undergone a lie detector test?"

I don't know if Mageau was ever subjected to a polygraph, but he has answered all of those questions numerous times, and his responses were consistent in every recorded interview:

A man he had never seen before pulled into the parking lot driving a light brown car he did not recognize. The man silently walked up to Darlene's car and opened fire without speaking a word.

Darlene's stalker was likely George Waters, a local man who had asked Darlene on several dates. He was rebuffed, and did not take it well. However, Vallejo PD quickly identified and questioned him, determining that he was at home with his wife at the time of the murder. He was not the Zodiac.

You can read more about the Vallejo attacks at the "Vallejo" page on my site, linked below.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Mattb (Mattb) (207.212.244.69) on Saturday, January 06, 2001 - 11:44 am:

Hello Everybody
This is my first time posting a message here. I don't have any question or statements yet, but I'm sure I will have some in the future.
I'm from Vallejo and went to school with most of the Vallejo victums. I used to work at a gas station next to Terry's when Darlene worked there.

Sincerely
Matt B.

By Jake Wark (Jake) (spider-th062.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.213.72) on Saturday, January 06, 2001 - 06:34 pm:

Hi Matt -- do you have any memories about the victims, or about the media reports that followed? I'm sure we're all eager to hear them.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Esau (Esau) (cc129455-a.rcrdva1.ca.home.com - 24.176.178.187) on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 06:19 pm:

In "Zodiac" Graysmith mentions a ship's steward that met a man on April 19, 1970 that seemed to be obsessed with the murder rate in San Fransisco. According to Graysmith he went on to describe in great detail all 35 of the city's murders so far that year but seemed to avoid the Zodiac murders. The man in question was sitting in a late model hard top on the corner of Bay St. and Embarcadero in San Francisco. The ship's steward said that the man claimed to be a British engineer that had been living in San Francisco for 10 years but there is no mention of whether or not he had a British accent. He supposedly looked like the composite of the Zodiac. Have any of you investigators ever found the name of this man and interviewed him?

By Mattb (Mattb) (cust4.scronline.com - 207.212.244.69) on Friday, January 12, 2001 - 02:54 am:

Hi Jake
I do have a few memories from those days and the more I think about it, the more memories return.
I don't have a lot of time right now, but will post some of my memories in the future.
Take care.
Sincerely
MattB

By Mattb (Mattb) (207.212.244.82) on Friday, January 12, 2001 - 04:13 pm:

Hi Jake
I remember a male that used to come into the gas station and talking with me about Darlene. Was she working, did I see her. That type of stuff.
He was shorter then me (I'm 6'1") and stocky with short hair. Half of his face was paralized. I don't remember what kind of car he drove.
I believe he was watching Darlene's house. I can also remember friends wanting to buy drugs, but not wanting to go to Darlene's to get them because they thought the police were watching her house. I knew that it wasn't the police because I knew this guy wasn't a cop.
I'll be happy to answer any question you might have.
Take care
MattB

By Mattb (Mattb) (207.212.244.82) on Friday, January 12, 2001 - 04:45 pm:

Tom
You have made a lot of nice improvments since I was first here a few years ago.
I was wondering if it would be allright if I posted some messages to Zodiac? I believe that if he is still alive he would be visiting here and I have some question for him. I doubt he would answer them, but I'd still like a chance to ask him anyway.
Please keep up the good work that you are doing here.
Take care
MattB

By Mattb (Mattb) (207.212.244.82) on Friday, January 12, 2001 - 04:51 pm:

Hello eveybody
I hope people will be able to make since of my postings.
English was not something I was interested in studying in school and in the many years since then my knowledge has improved much.
I appologize in advance for any comfussion I might cause and ask that you have patience with me as I try to answer any question you might ask me.
Thank you.
MattB

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 10:55 am:

MattB. I haven't been reading the board for some time now , I just read your post about a man asking about Darleen. Do you remember the way he spoke? My #1 suspect has 1/2 of his face paralyzed.This is the same man who was trying to get Donna Lass to go out with him,in Lake Tahoe. He lived in S.F. before that.His picture (when he was younger)I believe it is on the Americas Most wanted web site. Please look at it and see if it is the same guy.He looks taller than he is, but is about 5ft 8 or 9.I tried to email you, because this guy reads the board and is very upset with my knowledge of him.You may "e" me if you like.

By Mattb (Mattb) (cust12.scronline.com - 207.212.244.77) on Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 06:08 pm:

Hi Sandy
Thank you for the message and the warning. I don't think I have much to worry about. Zodiac was/is a coward. If this guy is Zodiac then he is a coward too. I'm not the victum type. I'm big, strong and smart. Not the type of person Zodiac went after.
Zodiac was/is a spinless coward the shot defencless people. His only way to feel impowered is to use a gun in a situation where his victums can't fight back.
Sorry, I didn't mean to go on like that. I just hate bullies.
Anyway, I'll try to E-mail you. I'm not to good at computers so I might take a while to do it.
Sincerely
MattB

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 08:44 pm:

Its o.k. Matt, I am not that good either. Just click on to my name on the post and it will get you to my email address. You are right about him being a coward, so you can post the information. I think most of the people would like to read what you have to tell anyway. Most of them know about the man with the slight paralysis on his face, and how he got to be that way. A man named Harvey Hines has someone who fits the same description as his suspect.Did you notice anything at all about his eyes? The color or how they looked? How about his teeth?The car he drove and its color. The way he dressed, color and style of his hair. Did he look different from time to time, and show up in different cars? Was he always alone? Did you ever see him with glasses? Thank you so much!

By Mattb (Mattb) (207.212.244.67) on Sunday, January 14, 2001 - 06:24 am:

Hi Sandy
You must visit here often.
I tried clicking on your name, but your E-mail address was unavalible. If you can E=mail me I can reply.
No I don't remember his eye color or if he wore glasses. He was always alone and if I remember correctly, he was always dressed in dark colors. I don't think he had a large wordrobe. I think he only had one car.
I don't know the AMW address so I haven't seen the picture you told me about.
I hope this information was helpful.
Sincerely
MattB

By Mattb (Mattb) (207.212.244.67) on Sunday, January 14, 2001 - 07:04 am:

Hi Again Sandy
If I give you a number for a local pay phone would you call me?
We can pick a time for me to be there waiting for your call.
You can call from a pay phone if you're worried about me tracing the call.
I can be there later today and any time tomorrow or any time Friday.
I'll check back in a few hours to see your reply.
Sincerely
MattB

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Sunday, January 14, 2001 - 04:43 pm:

O.K. MattB give me a number and I will call you Monday at 11am.

By Mattb (Mattb) (cust63.scronline.com - 207.212.244.131) on Sunday, January 14, 2001 - 07:38 pm:

Hi Sandy
The number is 707-558-9464 and I'll be there at 11:00 am Pacific time.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 08:41 am:

O.K. Matt, Thanks Sandy

By Oscar (Oscar) (pool0553.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net - 209.178.190.43) on Tuesday, January 16, 2001 - 09:41 pm:

Is it just me, or is this particular thread starting to resemble The Dating Game? Just kidding. Matt, I am very eagerly awaiting any further recollections of the events that took place in Vallejo so long ago. Please post again.
Oscar.

By Realtor (Realtor) (208.128.16.97) on Wednesday, January 17, 2001 - 10:29 am:

Yeah, me too. Sandy, did you and Matt get to talk?

Realtor

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Thursday, January 18, 2001 - 08:41 am:

Yes we did, he didn't remember too much. We will meet, and I will show him the pictures of all the suspects I have gathered from Z sites. Without the names to influence any wrong I.D.

By Bryan (Bryan) (144.141.27.172) on Friday, January 19, 2001 - 01:13 pm:

My Name is Bryan (got older up in Petaluma, wife says I never grew up) and I find your site very interesting, I would like to say a few things about most of the posts I've read. My Dad was a part time cab driver when Stein was murdered it did come on as a news bulletin. My Grandfather saw it as was concerned enough to call my mom to see if my Dad was driving that night. And only when my Dad called we knew it wasn't him.

I was on my way to school the morning after The Zodiac threatened. to shoot the tires and pop off the kiddies as they came off the bus ". There were three police officers on the bus that morning the thing that interests me about Arthur Leigh Allen was his teaching background, (were any victims students at any schools where he taught?). how many people knew the procedure when a bus got a flat? We were always told to wait outside the bus to wait for another bus to come. I remember how hard it was to ask a girl out on a date in Jr high combined that now we had to have a parent with us at all times. (Now I have a 12 year old daughter "go ahead kiss her good bye young man I wont watch and break your arms").

I remembered how scared I was back then, it was pretty interesting Halloween that year, NO kids went out alone.

Has anyone ever connected the Mount Tamalpais (SP) killer and the Zodiac, I remember seeing a composite drawing and always wondered how close any of the suspects would look alike?

I did 20 years in the Navy and the wing walker were standard issue.

Bryan

By Jake Wark (Jake) (spider-wd033.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.193.163) on Friday, January 19, 2001 - 02:32 pm:

Bryan wrote:
"Has anyone ever connected the Mount Tamalpais (SP) killer and the Zodiac, I remember seeing a composite drawing and always wondered how close any of the suspects would look alike?"

The closest connection is that Robert Graysmith wrote books about both of them. I believe that there was a theory that Zodiac did the Mt. Tam murders, but it evaporated when Carpenter was arrested.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Mattb (Mattb) (207.212.244.74) on Friday, January 19, 2001 - 05:21 pm:

Hello everybody
I was wondering. Does anybody think that Z would leave a confession to be found after he died?

MattB

By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (ac8de571.ipt.aol.com - 172.141.229.113) on Friday, January 19, 2001 - 06:37 pm:

Matt, please start a new thread for that question.

By Oscar (Oscar) (pool0118.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net - 209.178.188.118) on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 03:05 am:

Jake,
In Graysmith's book on Carpenter/Trailside Killings, Carpenter is alleged to have confessed to a fellow inmate that he was Zodiac.
Oscar

By Jake Wark (Jake) (spider-mtc-tf071.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.103.51) on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 12:35 pm:

Yeah, I kind of lost interest after the first few chapters. Anyway, I don't think anyone believes he was Z.

--Jake

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Monday, January 22, 2001 - 09:38 pm:

The police thought z was the Trailside killer,but when they caught Carpenter they checked him out as Zodiac, and of course he wasn't. The same taunting phone calls were made to the police as z did. What I can't understand, is how can a man who has a real bad stutter,stop stuttering when he made those phone calls,and not stutter when he spoke to his victims?(one did live to tell) Please don't tell me about Mel Tillis,the killer didn't sing to them.

By Oscar (Oscar) (pool0921.cvx26-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net - 209.179.153.156) on Monday, January 22, 2001 - 09:47 pm:

Sandy,
Actually, the police were convinced that the two killers-Zodiac and Trailside- were different entities prior to Carpenter's capture. You are correct in stating that it was a theory during the earlier days of the case, but it was soon abandoned after several aspects of the Trailside case did not mesh with Z's MO and such. Zodiac, being the elusive 'boogeyman' of the Bay area at the time (and entire state), was blamed for a plethora of crimes that he could not have possibly committed. When 'little Timmy's' puppy went missing, who did they blame? Why Zodiac, of course...at least for a while.
Oscar.
p.s. Check out the Zodies; you are quite popular.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Tuesday, January 23, 2001 - 11:39 pm:

Thanks Oscar I did, I had to laugh at some of them. I understand that most of the people want to meet in S.F. If they plan on flying South west air we better meet soon, SW won't be flying to S,F. after March! I would like to see some of the suspects at the party,maybe Tom can have Allen stuffed and bring him along?

By Oscar (Oscar) (pool0107.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net - 209.178.188.107) on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 03:10 am:

Sandy,
Great idea! Maybe we can serve "stuffed Allen" at the banquet as well? I just hope...nay, I dare...that's right, I dare Gareth Penn to show his mug around town on this weekend. Not only will I force him to give me a refund for his pile of goat-dip in the guise of a book, but I'll actually take two out of three in arm-wrestling or weenie-wagging. It's his choice. Look out Gareth, I've been in training!
Oscar
p.s. Penn in 2004. Ride the Turd!

By The Giant (Bryan) (144.141.27.172) on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 07:47 am:

I never found out about the outcome of the trailside killings, I was out of the country most of the time from 76 to 96. So I also missed alot of the TV Programs and specials also, I did see a thing about serial killers on TLC last week but they did'nt profile the Zodiac.
Bryan

By Pamhuckaby (Pamhuckaby) (spider-tp054.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.204.199) on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 08:09 am:

Jake:

I disagree with you alot, Darlene did know her killer, do you have something to back up what your saying. We have had many talks on this and I am not making up stories. I am disappointed in your thinking of me.

By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-tc074.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.17.54) on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 10:11 am:

Pam: are you certain that the man who was stalking your sister was in fact the same one who murdered her? One thing I've learned over the last eight years studying this case is that there seem to be an awful lot of men connected one way or the other who had similar descriptions.

At first (in 1993), I thought Z murdered his victims at random. Then, I started thinking (by 1995), based on the various things I'd read, that Darlene knew all the early victims and that Z was trying to cover something up. Now (as of ca. 1999), I'm at the point where I'm thinking that there may not have been any particular connections between Z's victims, that Darlene certainly had a complex life, but that she was randomly targeted by Z.

To be honest, after sorting through the fact, fiction, mythology and mis- and disinformation perpetuated about this case, I'm not really certain about any conclusion at the moment. My question is, how can you be sure that Darlene knew Z?

By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p98.as2.dungarvan1.eircom.net - 159.134.234.98) on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 10:59 am:

ED,
Have you ever read anything or seen anything that would suggest a link between Darlene and CJB?

By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-tc024.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.17.29) on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 03:23 pm:

Lapumo: other than Pam's claim that the two knew each other, I've not read anything else about it.

By Jake Wark (Jake) (spider-wg014.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.196.24) on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 02:23 pm:

Pam wrote:
"I disagree with you alot..."

We spoke last night, but for the benefit of our readers I'll restate a few points. The only sources that endorse your theory are the works of Robert Graysmith and Harry Martin; the former relies on uncited anecdotes and the latter is almost entirely fiction. The sources I trust most are the reports of the Vallejo Police Department and newspaper interviews with the only survivng witness to the attack, Mike Mageau.

Now, VPD has dropped its share of balls, but their work in the immediate aftermath of the crime seems pretty thorough. Moreover, their reports are entirely consistent with Mageau's published accounts. I've quoted and footnoted several salient passages over at my site, and for this reason, I think I've held up my end of the bargain pretty well. If anything, it's your responsibility to explain the theory that Darlene did know her killer when most legitimate sources seem to suggest otherwise.

This doesn't really have any bearing on what I think of you, so please don't take it personally.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (mail.ci.colospgs.co.us - 204.131.210.1) on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 11:13 pm:

JAKE:
If anything, it's your responsibility to explain the theory that Darlene did know her killer when most legitimate sources seem to suggest otherwise.

BRUCE:
Jake, you know that I am normally in agreement with your analyses here, but on this issue I'm afraid I have to digress. Whether we choose to believe everything Pam confides or not, it is still an undeniable fact that she lived through the events in question and was in the best position to observe the actions, associations, and expressed thoughts that Darlene may have exibited in her day-to-day life over a long period of time, up to and including the day of her murder.

While it's true that family members can be subject to distortions in their perceptions as a result of emotional trauma, it is also true that close family members are among the best and most reliable sources of information--and this is especially true among siblings, who often have insights that parents are not even aware of. In fact, even long after the fact, family members will often recall obscure bits of information that they had not remembered earlier, but suddenly falls into place. For example, when a young teenager commits suicide, family members are frequently quoted as being oblivious to any signs of depression or other ideosyncracies the teen had been exhibiting, but weeks or months, even years, later (as they begin to think about it with less emotion) they will often recall certain comments or incidents that were actually clues to the teen's state of mind, but didn't realize it at the time; things like, "yeah, I remember that a few days before Johnny shot himself he gave his record collection to his sister." Such information is important and such that could easily be overlooked initially (as opposed to someone allegedly making a series of self-incriminating statements like, "I will kill couples at random and call myself Zodiac," among others, which would be immediately obvious to anyone having heard such statements when such events actually started happening for real and appearing in the news headlines).

Neither VPD (which, as you say, has "dropped its share of balls") nor Mageau, (c'mon Jake, Mageau is as squirly as they come, and continues to be) can be relied upon as sources of information that stand as pillers of fact beyond question or error. Even if Mageau's statements (vague as they were) are accurate (and beyond the attack itself, that is a big "if"), that STILL does nothing to disprove the possibility that Darlene "knew her killer," and that her own history (replete with an all-star cast of questionable characters) played something more in her death than just being the victim of a random attack.

It seems to me a major stumbling block that many here are simply unwilling to accept (for whatever reasons) the distinct possibility that "the Zodiac" killings really were the combined actions of more than one person (a prospect that would, in one swoop, answer a helluva lot of problematic questions).

I'm not saying this is or is not the case, but until we take that possibility seriously (a prospect I believe also means giving Pam, Sandy and, yes, even Johns, a little latitude--at least as much as has been allowed to others), we're likely to fall into the same ruts and biases that have prevented this case from being resolved for the last thirty years. I'm also not suggesting that Pam is under no obligation to submit evidence that corroborates her assertions (as a standard of proof we do need corroboration), but by the same token, it's quite possible for her to be presenting factual information, even if her own theories about that information prove unsound in the end. For example, if one were to posit that Darlene "knew her killer" and that she "knew Allen," there are many here who would accept that with little difficulty. In other words, Pam's assertion would have been factual information even though her own theory on different suspects was wrong. Of course, I only use Allen as an example here to make a point. I could also have used Kane or some other suspect in a similar fashion.

Regards,

Bruce M.

By Peterh (Peterh) (adsl-141-154-76-16.bostma.adsl.bellatlantic.net - 141.154.76.16) on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 06:54 am:

Geez, lighten up on Jake, will ya? Family members have better knowledge of something because they actually _know_ something, like "I overheard Darlene on the phone telling Mike that she was afraid Leigh was going to sneak up on them some dark night . . .". Just being a family member can make specific information pretty authoritative, (like the record collection) but just being a family member doesn't validate an assertion without any such information. All Jake seems to be asking for is what _information_ Pam has, that is, _why_ she beleives Darlene knew the killer, other than "I'm her sister and that's what I think, so there". No offense meant to you, Pam. Its Bruce M here that needs the course in deductive reasoning. You do have a unique perspective, and we would all benefit from your sharing the actual information or experience you have that makes you believe Darlene knew Z.

By Edward (Edward) (adsl-63-204-75-202.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net - 63.204.75.202) on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 09:57 am:

Bruce,

I would think Zodiac was as "squirly" as they come. Not one of his victims. It's amazing you give Pam her due for living through it all, yet trash Mike Mageau.

By Jake Wark (Jake) (spider-wo063.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.200.48) on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 05:25 pm:

Bruce wrote:
"Whether we choose to believe everything Pam confides or not, it is still an undeniable fact that she lived through the events in question and was in the best position to observe the actions, associations, and expressed thoughts that Darlene may have exibited in her day-to-day life over a long period of time, up to and including the day of her murder."

I got interested in this case in the same way as most of the people here -- I read Graysmith's book, and so I practically took it for granted that Darlene and the Zodiac were somehow linked prior to her murder. After all, she was being stalked, she was tense and nervous in the days before her death, she had an argument the evening of the murder, the killer called her by her secret name ("Dee"), and her family received crank calls immediately after the attack, right? Why wouldn't we accept Pam's various statements that bolster the Darlene-as-keystone theory?

Well, Darlene had an admirer, alright -- VPD reports from July 5th, 6th, and 7th are loaded with leads on her stalker, George the bartender. He was identified, located, interviewed, and cleared. Darlene's husband -- that is, the man who lived with her and so would also be in an excellent position to observe her actions, associations, and expressed thoughts -- has said, among other things, that he noticed no tension, nervousness, or unusual behavior on Darlene's part before she died. The infamous argument at Terry's was nothing more than an exchange between a man meeting Z's general description and a waitress who wasn't Darlene. Darlene was chaperoning her sister Christina (not Pam, as you implied) around town and making plans with Mike Mageau. Nowhere -- NOWHERE -- have I ever seen Mageau give an account that described Z as speaking at all that night: the killer walked silently up to the passenger's side (ie, Mageau's side, ie, not Darlene's side), opened fire, and left. Finally, while calls were received at Dean and Darlene's house, none were received at the Suennen home.

When the legend is stripped down to the facts, and with the benefit of hindsight, it only makes sense to start with the assumption that Ferrin and Mageau were, like the other Zodiac victims, randomly selected. I'm not saying that I positively discount the theory that Darlene knew the man who killed her, but I am saying that I still haven't heard a convincing argument that she did. I didn't start out with this opinion: I came at it with an open mind, perhaps even prejudiced in favor of Pam's general theory, and the facts led me elsewhere.

"Neither VPD ... nor Mageau ... can be relied upon as sources of information that stand as pillers of fact beyond question or error."

VPD investigated this murder the same way any other police force would: they assumed that she knew who killed her. They took dozens of interviews looking for someone who liked her, didn't like her, followed her, called her, scared her, etc. They spoke to the families. They spoke to co-workers. They spoke to Mike Mageau, who maybe wasn't working for the Nixon administration but who at least told the same story every time he was asked. And finally, if you're searching for a pillar of fact beyond question or error, I would respectfully suggest that you keep on looking.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (csd135.bvi3.cos.pcisys.net - 207.204.7.135) on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 07:56 pm:

Peter,

I'm not dogging Jake here--he's one of the people here who DOES exhibit sound reasoning on a regular basis. Just because I disagree with him on a certain point doesn't mean I am knocking his method--I AGREE WITH HIS METHOD! I wasn't rude to Jake. I simply stated a contrary view and gave my reasons for such, that's all.

PETER:
Its Bruce M here that needs the course in deductive reasoning.

BRUCE:
That's amusing, Peter.

Regards,

Bruce M.

By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (csd135.bvi3.cos.pcisys.net - 207.204.7.135) on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 08:14 pm:

JAKE:
I'm not saying that I positively discount the theory that Darlene knew the man who killed her, but I am saying that I still haven't heard a convincing argument that she did.

BRUCE:
And that's all I'm saying, Jake. There are enough curious questions about Ferrin and the gamut of curious figures surrounding her to make most anything possible.

JAKE:
And finally, if you're searching for a pillar of fact beyond question or error, I would respectfully suggest that you keep on looking.

BRUCE:
And, once again, I would wholly agree. But then, from what I have seen, we are still a long way off from any such pillars. Indeed, Jake, many of my "questions" in this event have been inspired by observations you presented in your previous posts, particularly in the debate you had with Tom a while back.

Regards,

Bruce M.

By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (csd135.bvi3.cos.pcisys.net - 207.204.7.135) on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 08:48 pm:

EDWARD:
I would think Zodiac was as "squirly" as they come. Not one of his victims. It's amazing you give Pam her due for living through it all, yet trash Mike Mageau.

BRUCE:
Edward, all I am saying is that Pam deserves as much leeway that is afforded anyone else. I also never said that Pam was exempt from providing corroborating evidence for her assertions. Indeed, I mentioned that specifically:

I'm also not suggesting that Pam is under no obligation to submit evidence that corroborates her assertions (as a standard of proof we do need corroboration)..."

As I also emphasized, Pam could very well be presenting some factual information that is relevant to this case, and yet have her own theories about that information be off the mark.

Incidentally, the same goes for Penn and the radian (another issue on which I share Jake's opinions--unless he has changed those within the last few months); that being that just because Penn's conclusions are out in left field does not mean everything he observed about radians in his studies was wrong and useless. Indeed, one has only to look through the creative brainstorming that goes on here to see that there are many compelling scenarios for which a case can be made, and all of them cannot be true, but accurate observations may still be present within a flawed theory. Would you agree or disagree?

Regards,

Bruce M.

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-th031.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.213.56) on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 09:56 pm:

Pam is another noise source.

By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (csd135.bvi3.cos.pcisys.net - 207.204.7.135) on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 11:11 pm:

Alan, my mention of Penn does not mean I am defending his wild escapades, so don't think that I am (radian discussion aside), but I am curious about what you mean by saying Pam is "another noise source."?

Regards,

Bruce Monson

By Chalandra (Chalandra) (tsway1-87.du.gate.net - 207.36.1.214) on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 05:20 am:

Alanc,

I am also wondering what you mean by "Pam is another noise source"? The way it was said makes me think that you think Pam is just running her mouth for no reason.

It seems as if some people on this MB thinks Pam doesn't know what she is talking about.
I believe Pam does know what she is talking about and I think she should be able to tell her story without anyone cutting her down. I believe everything that Pam has said, afterall, she was there, and she did notice that something was going on with Darlene. Pam also noticed a certain man made Darlene very nervous. What I would like to know is, who this man is and if this man was ever found and investigated?
It is simply amazing how cruel some people can be to others.

Chalandra

By Jake Wark (Jake) (spider-mtc-th024.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.102.29) on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 06:05 am:

Chalandra wrote:
"Pam also noticed a certain man made Darlene very nervous. What I would like to know is, who this man is and if this man was ever found and investigated?"

Pam wasn't alone -- a lot of her acquaintances mentioned a suspicious "George" to detectives. As I just pointed out, George was identified, located, interviewed, and cleared. Check the Vallejo" page on my site.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 06:18 am:

Although I do believe Darlene knew who was stalking her, and that he was also her killer,the name Dee was not a secret. She was listed in the city directory as Dee!

By Jake Wark (Jake) (spider-wc043.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.193.38) on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 06:34 pm:

Sandy wrote:
"She was listed in the city directory as Dee!"

Thanks for the tip -- Pam has said that only her family knew her by that name.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Marbar (Marbar) (mp-217-87.daxnet.no - 193.216.217.87) on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 02:22 am:

I am very interested in hearing about Pam's theories about who Z might be etc, but like with Sandys' posts it is all very, very confusing!!!! I must agree with Alanc and Edward here!

I understand that Sandy is now working with Bruce Monson to get her story/therory into something readable on this MB, and I am looking forward to that.

If Pam wants to be taken seriously, she should write a brief summary of her story here for all to understand!!!!

Marbar

By The Giant (Bryan) (144.141.27.172) on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 12:00 pm:

On another website, it compared the composite (SFPD)drawing with Peter O. my question is "was there a artist interpretation of a "lazy left eye" (example scar on forehead was an pencil mark not really a scar on VPD Composite) or did the kids or the two police officers Identify a lazy left eye?
Bryan

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wa043.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.192.38) on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 12:19 pm:

Chalandra, you mistake plain speaking for cruelty, a trait frequently associated with persons who play the "victim" card when the ideas they espouse are challenged. I referred to Pam as a "noise source" because she has a recurring habit of dropping hints and not ever fleshing them out. Those hints are just noise unless there is some substantial linear narrative to back them up.

Unless Pam actually has a linear narrative to string her various hints and assertions together, I'm of a mind to disregard her posts here as the efforts of someone angling for some talk show exposure and maybe a book deal.

By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (spider-wm024.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.199.159) on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 12:28 pm:

Bryan, you need to post your question in the thread that deals with that suspect.
Look under "Other Suspects." His name is Peter O.

By Pamhuckaby (Pamhuckaby) (spider-wb074.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.192.184) on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 07:55 pm:

I have never looked for a book deal, and I have already been on many talk shows, I can't back up everything I say, because I never knew I would have to write my life down for further use. If you will look beyond Darlene's life and the family's life you would see what I'm talking about. When ever someone would come into my life with zodiac stuff I would research it. I have been doing this since 1969, I just didn't read "Graysmith's" book and say oh yea that's how it happened. You had to have been there. ALOT of the people that are involved in the case one way or another weren't even born, they read a book and it interested. Our family NEVER called Darlene, "Dee". I wished I could tell everyone the months that I was in my sister's life that lead up to her being killed. So that is why I'm doing something that you all have assume me of and am going to write it out. But to start it all on why I was so close to Darlene the last 9 to 10 months of her life is in the Vallejo Times Herald paper. On Nov.1968 there was a Serial rapist, raped women in Vallejo, I was victim number 6, so when they caught this man, myself and 6 other women Identified this man. The day after Darlene was murdered I was in the Vallejo courts, testifying against this man. So if you read the newspapers, you will see "women killed on July 4th", "serial rapist victims #3 in court today," Manson Murders captured, all on the same page. Do you honestly thought I wanted to tell the world this hell know. So I will start there and maybe someone out there can just let me say what I have to say, and try to help me bring this SOB to justice instead of bad mouthing me. This case is not all this hard if you all would put your brains together instead of saying what you are lets "work" together. I will not go away!!!
Pam

By Esau (Esau) (cc129455-a.rcrdva1.ca.home.com - 24.176.178.187) on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 08:01 pm:

Hi Pam. I don't doubt your sincerity and your intentions but the Manson murders didn't occur until August of 1969. He was arrested in October of 1969.

By Pamhuckaby (Pamhuckaby) (spider-wb041.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.192.166) on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 09:46 pm:

Esau:
It only talks about the arrest. Zodiac didn't write his first letter till Aug. 4th 1969.
Check out the Vallejo Paper's. And all these police reports that are being read , came from my house. I gave Tom V. a copy, I'm sure it went from there. Aug. 4th is a letter, from Z, also a story on the Manson Murder's. Court lasted a while.
Your just misssing the point. It's okay thro.....Pam

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wb064.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.192.179) on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 10:29 pm:

Sharon Tate was murdered on the night of August 9-10, 1969. Charles Manson was arrested in October on car theft charges and not charged with the Tate-LoBianco killings until that December.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 05:17 am:

Pam has a lot of emotion concerning this case, I am sure we can all understand why.When she gets upset, she makes mistakes on the exact dates. I am sure she meant to say z named himself on August7th, but that his first letter was July 31st 69, on that letter he used his logo. The confusion with Manson could be that Helter skelter was "suppose" to take place on Aug. 1st 69 ,and that Z wanted his first letter put in the papers on Aug. 1st 69, another one of those odd coincidental z things.

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-tp063.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.204.203) on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 07:33 am:

Well then we'll all just have to avoid upsetting her, won't we? Don't worry about the dates, they aren't important.

By Howard (Howard) (dialup-63.210.121.62.losangeles1.level3.net - 63.210.121.62) on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 11:57 pm:

Sandy-Zodiac's letter stated:"If you do not print this cipher[publicity tool]on the front page of your paper by the afternoon of Fry.1st of Aug 69, I will go on a ramPage Fry. night."Why then? Why Aug. 1st and it's importance to the degree Z threatens to kill 12 people -the exact # in astrology, or the 12 signs.I see Manson's kickoff for the Revolution and the "terrorizing of CA",as Manson said.

Since M/D were into the occult and astrology, I looked up Aug. first.In witchcraft, which they knew,the "first" was the major sabbat,or festival ,of Lammas,or Lugnassad. It celebrates the HARVESTING of the FIRST FRUITS.It is also called Aug. Eve,or the "time" to initiate "rites" and a"program".Aug.first 69' Manson told some in the group he was "going UP NORTH to get some new recruits". Tex Watson said in his book that this was a "rare" thing for Manson to do."Around Aug. 1st",Manson called Bruce Davis and Bobby Beausoleil into his trailer and told Bruce he had to be willing to "go to the city and cut and slash until he[Bruce ]had blood and guts up to here" -[motioning to his chin].

Manson's chronology from the first to the eighth of Aug. 69'has "gaps" according to investigators. When he did return he told some in the Family that "the people up north were really not together,they were just off on their own little trips,and they were not getting together.Now is the time for Helter Skelter, "is what M said.The timing of Zodiac with Manson's Revolution and activities is amazing! All EMP/caps are mine

By Bill Baker (Billbaker) (pool0861.cvx5-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net - 209.178.155.96) on Monday, February 05, 2001 - 03:13 am:

Howard, I know it's a matter of neither here nor there, but I interviewed Bobby Beausoleil in San Quentin in 1970, when he was still on death row for the murder of Gary Hinman. I interviewed Susan Atkins when she was also under a death sentence. Bobby gave us only an iota of information, claiming that he believed his death sentence would be over-turned (which it was). Susan (Sadie) was her typical self, laying off blame for any alleged crimes on Charlie.

The murder for which I pursued Bobby as the culprit of the crime occurred in late July 1969 (her body was found August 3, bound, stabbed repeatedly, her throat cut). She was never identified. There is physical evidence that places Bobby at the "dump" scene, but nothing else to confirm his complicity. He, obviously, denies his involvement but, at the same time, stupidly acknowledges certain factors that suggest his complicity. Beausoleil remains a suspect in our 1969 case, but even his eventual arrest not far from the body dump a few days later, a few miles away, doesn't give us squat.

Howard, I don't believe that there is a connection between Bruce Davis, or any other Manson follower, with the Zodiac killings. For that matter, I don't believe any suggestion that Ted K was responsible. But that's just my personal opinion. As I was accused of in 1972, the evidence does not fully support the claim. But as I have always said, the claim supports the evidence. Z killed our victims, and Z's killings, especially Lake Berryessa, bear that out. However that may tend to skew the views of detractors, that's my position.

By Howard (Howard) (dialup-64.156.147.157.losangeles1.level3.net - 64.156.147.157) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 01:57 am:

Bill-Points well taken;but I have the same questions for you as I left for Michael-why can't Bruce Davis fit the Zodiac case?Why do you rule him out?I have him at or near all the sites including LT,S.F.,Riverside,etc.,except LB.I can do description, background ,including mental analysis match,motive,cars,weapons expertise,etc. I can't rule out Allen, as we have enough to keep him afloat.I can play the other way and sink him at points in the Z investigation.So this is what makes me wonder why can't my guy, whom I can match to, say, Allen,be included on the Z list? How can a professional say I don't"think" your guy is Zodiac-again,what rules him out? I won't do that as a researcher concerning other suspects-I can't in an unsolved case like this. I am at a loss in understanding statements such as I have described.Quite puzzled actually,unless you have done a detailed investigation and can give firm reason/s based on facts,of course ,"gut feelings" are out.Dave Peterson, who was with the Z case since 12/20/'68, and the one who looked at all the main suspects, and some unknowns,looked at my guy ,and on his own, included him as a chief suspect(with a personal conviction he was Z).What I am saying is ,even if he had his "own guy", he saw enough evidence NOT to rule him out as you have done! Just wondering out loud!The '87 you brought forth is interesting. I know someone who is in touch with Bobby ,so he will ask him about the "87 and report to you . I will contact his wife too.You are very dedicated ,and it shows in your concern with past unsolved cases-an admirable trait,and one that other professionals should emulate!

By Esau (Esau) (cc129455-a.rcrdva1.ca.home.com - 24.176.178.187) on Saturday, February 17, 2001 - 02:57 pm:

Hi Bill, what's the name of the victim from July 1969?

By William Baker (Bill_Baker) (pool0315.cvx4-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net - 209.178.147.60) on Saturday, February 17, 2001 - 05:20 pm:

Esau, she's still a Jane Doe. She was tied, stabbed repeatedly, her throat cut deeply, then dumped down an embankment bordering a creek, off a side road adjacent to Hwy 1 on the way to Lompoc. She was discovered, decomposed, on August 3, 1969.

By Eduard Versluijs (Eduard) (1cust229.tnt8.rtm1.nl.uu.net - 213.116.110.229) on Friday, March 09, 2001 - 02:19 am:

Hi Chalandra,

I try to contact you now for weeks...
I'm interested in hearing what the authority's were investigating about your suspect and how it ended. Can you mail me back on this subject?
Thanks,
-Eduard

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ntc-ta073.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.16.53) on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 01:38 pm:

Just re-read Grasmith's book. Are we sure that Walker is not Kane?? Sounds a whole lot like him.

By Jake (Jake) (h00010224c042.ne.mediaone.net - 66.31.109.98) on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 05:51 pm:

Andrew Todd Walker has never been publicly identified, so his true name is CONFIDENTIAL. His initials are WJG, if I'm thinking of the right guy.

Kane was edited out of Graysmith's first book, but I'm sure he'll play a part in "Zodiac Unmasked" if it's ever released. (Has everybody written to Berkeley?)

--Jake
http://www.ZodiacSpeaking.com

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 08:25 pm:

Jake, RJG was Donald Jeff Andrews in the book. Andrew Todd Walker was W.G.the guy who played games on the freeway over pass with the CHP officer. His picture was once posted on this site. Someone once named him on this site, and he has threatened to sue that person. RJG has not been named, that was Ken Narlow's guy at one time.He looked real good, even his voice sounded right, and he wore superman like glass's.One of his so called friends turned him in as z, because RJG confessed to him that he was the Zodiac. He still lives in S.F.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acb63a68.ipt.aol.com - 172.182.58.104) on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 10:43 pm:

Sandy, the suspect called "Don Andrews" in the yellow book is Rick Marshall.

By Mark (Mark) (203-116-237-24.anc-dial.gci.net - 24.237.116.203) on Monday, June 11, 2001 - 12:33 am:

Jake-good question about "Zodiac Unmasked"-I have written to them about moving forward on the publishing date, has anyone else? Anything new about the book? Mark

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Monday, June 11, 2001 - 07:13 am:

Tom , sorry I was told Andrews was Richard J. G.who lives in S.F. It was Darlenes sister who gave me his name. Ken Narlow was upset with her for interrupting the investigation of him, by going to his house and talking to him about Darlene. Rick Marshall has been named before, this RJG guy, hasn't as far as I know.But then none of us have all that we should, with all the misinformation. Could you tell us how you came about Marshall as Andrews? And did he work for the Phone co.? Blaine T Blaine, AKA Smith, was the man who turned in RJG.I have his transcript to DOJ. One of us has been misinformed.I would like to know for sure