How did Z pick his name?


Zodiackiller.com Message Board: General Zodiac Discussion: How did Z pick his name?

By Esau (Esau) (1cust103.tnt2.sacramento2.ca.da.uu.net - 63.17.219.103) on Sunday, November 05, 2000 - 01:33 pm:

I leared from a TV special about Zodiac that there was a Charlie Chan movie about a killer that wrote taunting letters to the police and called himself "Zodiac". I know that there have been astrology theories buts let's hear some opinions.....

By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (ac9b42f6.ipt.aol.com - 172.155.66.246) on Sunday, November 05, 2000 - 02:27 pm:

What opinions are you looking for?

"Charlie Chan at Treasure Island" featured a villain named Dr. Zodiac. He wrote letters, taunted police and had a nemesis who was a reporter for the Chronicle.

By Esau (Esau) (1cust134.tnt5.sacramento2.ca.da.uu.net - 63.26.69.134) on Sunday, November 05, 2000 - 08:24 pm:

I'm hoping to bring up a good topic and hear some refreshing opinions and theories from other people.

By Hurley (Hurley) (spider-wn042.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.197.167) on Monday, November 06, 2000 - 08:03 am:

There is the Zodiac watch connection. Allen supposedly had a Zodiac watch that has a symbol like the one Zodiac used.

By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (ac8d4e7d.ipt.aol.com - 172.141.78.125) on Monday, November 06, 2000 - 10:50 am:

Allen DID own a Zodiac watch until it was seized by the Vallejo Police Department during a Valentine's Day search in 1991.

By Jake (Jake) (spider-we031.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.195.31) on Monday, November 06, 2000 - 03:43 pm:

Esau wrote:
"let's hear some opinions..... "

There's also the Ford Zodiac, a car that was used as a police vehicle in the UK during the late '50s and early '60s; the hood ornament was sort of a squared-off crossed-circle. This would fit in with the theory that Z was British and/or a cop buff.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By El_Shaddai (El_Shaddai) (pool-63.50.223.40.phnx.grid.net - 63.50.223.40) on Thursday, November 30, 2000 - 03:23 pm:

Jake wrote:
"This would fit in with the theory that Z was British and/or a cop buff."

BRUCE:
It would also fit in with the way Z used many European word spellings and terminology.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Sunday, December 03, 2000 - 08:02 pm:

Back in the early 70s ,I saw a Zodiac watch case in a used store window. As soon as I saw it, I felt this had to be where he got his name and symbol. The lining was red satin, the z symbol was gold, the name Zodiac was also gold. This watch is a under water watch, (was the killer a diver? I thought)Another connection to water! Its the only thing that has the exact symbol and the name zodiac. We all know he is a movie buff,perhaps he saw the Chan movie and liked it so much, that when he found the watch, he put it all together.Also the Lincoln car has a symbol on its hood like Z's.Most of the cars my suspect drives are Fords and Lincolns.

By Pamhuckaby (Pamhuckaby) (spider-ta073.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.205.78) on Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 09:15 am:

Well if my thoughts are right, the word Zodiac was a every day word with Darlene. When she would meet you she would say "Hey, what's your Zodiac sign?

By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p29.as1.dungarvan1.eircom.net - 159.134.234.29) on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 10:42 am:

It is interesting that the killer did not use the name Zodiac until after BRS.I also wonder why he waited until after this event to claim responsibility for LHR murders?.Anyone any thoughts on this?

By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-tc053.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.17.43) on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 04:46 pm:

I think it all goes back to how signature killers experiment with different core components of their signatures. Z started off small, then started adding more ("experimenting") until he got it right for himself. In other words:

First, the LHR murders by gun, and that was enough to sate his sick thirst for a while;

Second, the BRS murder PLUS the phone call, because he needed a little more;

Third, the first three letters and ciphers, which added to his sense of power;

Fourth, the fourth letter, in which he gave himself a name to be feared (what sounds scarier? "You better stay indoors tonight, that serial killer might be out there," or "You better stay indoors tonight, the Zodiac might get you!");

Fifth, LB and his executioner's getup, stabbing rather than shooting (probably to see if it afforded him more thrills than a simple execution by gun), plus the phone call;

Sixth, the PH murder, in an upscale neighborhood rather than a secluded area, meaning there would be a greater chance of getting caught;

Seventh, Z's unprecedented letter-writing campaign, undoubtedly helping him ride the wave of terror he created.

What we see is a gradual increase in what I perceive to be the signature aspects of his crimes. When he first started at LHR, I don't think he intended to claim responsibility at that time (not that he never would, just that he hadn't planned to at the time). Since he "couldn't get his rocks off" nearly as well or whatever in subsequent attacks, he made the call, and I suspect that his claim that he "killed those kids last year" was almost an afterthought, because he couldn't let someone else take responsibility for them.

Anyway, just a few thoughts to explain why Z took so long...

By Howard (Howard) (dialup-63.212.128.212.losangeles1.level3.net - 63.212.128.212) on Friday, January 12, 2001 - 12:32 am:

Charlie (Manson's name)Chan/Dr. Zodiac movie: Both a .22/.45 gun mentioned;Story in S.F.;S.F.P.D.mentioned-including Chief of police ;note:"SIGN OF SCORPIO INDICATES DISASTER IF ZODIAC OBLIGATIONS IGNORED" (unsigned)sounds familiar !(for fun-'slueth should see a name below killers film'),"mo.of Scorpio" is mentioned(Manson was a Scorpio);Note:"CAN'T ESCAPE ZODIAC";Yellow cab in S.F.;Writer named Paul(like Paul Avery);"Large shoes";Knives(sacrifical);S.F.Chronicle mentioned;Dr. Zodiac wore a disguise-black cape,etc. Zodiac symbols on cape;The Zodiac and astrology charts mentioned;The one I like "Dr. Zodiac is really two persons"(I won't say Manson/Davis). O.K. I lied,but they loved old movies!

By Hurley (Hurley) (spider-tf063.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.197.203) on Friday, January 12, 2001 - 02:49 pm:

Lapumo, I've wondered that myself. EdN. presents a good explanation. I've been wondering if the ciphers and letters weren't part of a hoax to distract from some other reason for killing but they do seem to progress like at LB.

By Esau (Esau) (cc129455-a.rcrdva1.ca.home.com - 24.176.178.187) on Friday, January 12, 2001 - 05:57 pm:

Hi Ed, I think Zodiac didn't take resposibility for LHR right away because he knew his car was seen by several other people and wanted to make sure the police weren't going to come knocking on his door to question him. I also think that by the time he claimed responsibility for BRS he was reasonably sure that got away with the LHR murder. There was an eyewitness at BRS but it was dark and I think that he felt confident that no one could give a good enough description of him or his car to put him in danger of being identified. When he did make the phone call to Vallejo PD after the BRS shooting he probably did think that there were no living witnesses that could identify him.

By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-ta071.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.16.51) on Friday, January 12, 2001 - 10:17 pm:

Good point, it's probably safe to assume that he laid low for that very reason. But then, he needed a greater thrill next time, and got a little careless...

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 11:38 am:

I believe Darlene knew the Zodiac, he wouldn't dare claim the Z name or the LHR killings until after the one person who new him as Z, and perhaps new he was the shooter of LHR. She had to be silenced,she knew too much, and besides that was dateing his enemys,(the police)!Sorry about my last post I didn't want to repeat myself. "Pam" I am still waiting for that phone call, you said you needed to talk to me? Welcome to the board!

By Esau (Esau) (cc129455-a.rcrdva1.ca.home.com - 24.176.178.187) on Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 11:46 am:

Hi Sandy. I've always wondered if Darlene was a witness to the LHR murder. What is your suspect's name? I'd like to look him up on the AMW website.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 09:23 pm:

Esau, The name you will find him under is Larry Kane. That is just one of many names he uses.He sometimes spells it Cane. In the Z book Graysmith worked out the clue to the killers name as Kane.His "real" name rhymes with Stine.His father left when he was young, he took his mothers name.He lived with her for many years.He was in the Navy at one time, and took code!He received damage to the brain from a car accident.His IQ is still over 160!He moved from S.F. about the same time as Donna Lass, and worked across the street from her in Lake Tahoe, her friends said he knew her, and tried to get her to go out with him.

By Mattb (Mattb) (207.212.244.67) on Sunday, January 14, 2001 - 06:45 am:

I've always wondered why he called himself THE Zodiac instead of just Zodiac.
I believe that a person would chose a name long before acting out his sick behavior.
He would have thought up the personality of Zodiac, then later he would have fantasized about being Zodiac, then later he would have acted out as Zodiac.
Being the Zodiac instead of Zodiac seems a little to impersonial of a choice of names. It's almost like somebody else chose the name or wrote the letters.
Sincersly
MattB

By Esau (Esau) (cc129455-a.rcrdva1.ca.home.com - 24.176.178.187) on Sunday, January 14, 2001 - 06:56 am:

Hi Matt, I've wondered the same thing myself and this is what I came up with. Ego might be why he used "The Zodiac" and not "Zodiac". "The" as in "the one and only".

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (164.philadelphia01rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 12.90.16.164) on Sunday, January 14, 2001 - 07:41 am:

"The" Zodiac encompasses the entire cosmos, something an egocentric like Zodiac would want.

By Hurley (Hurley) (spider-tf083.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.197.213) on Sunday, January 14, 2001 - 09:11 am:

Esau and Douglas. Yes, much more than just a person.

By Realtor (Realtor) (208.128.16.97) on Tuesday, January 16, 2001 - 10:49 am:

I think y'all are right, plus here's something else: The Zodiac liked newspapers and wanted to be printed in one. That probably means he read newspapers. That MIGHT mean that he read previously in newspapers about "The Riverside Killer" or "The Tucson Axe Murderer" (I'm making these up) and SO if he wanted a "career" in the newspaper, he had the opportunity to name himself "The Zodiac (killer)." This may even mean that he had killed before and that the newspaper called him something else with "The" at the beginning and as he evolved, he wished to change his name to something he thought would look better in print.

Musing....

Realtor

By Oscar (Oscar) (pool0553.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net - 209.178.190.43) on Tuesday, January 16, 2001 - 10:22 pm:

Y'All (Really, Realtor!),
By placing the article "The" before his moniker, Z was indeed referencing something definitive and all-encompassing. The letter Z does have a rather esoteric look and it is one of the most seldomly used letters in the English language. Therefore, the letter Z, by its very nature, is somewhat exclusive and rare. There is no doubt that Zodiac felt this way about himself.
Why not use just "Zodiac"? Well,one theory I have is that by using the article in front of the title, one is essentially distancing themselves from a created persona. What I men by this is quite simple: by using "the Zodiac", the killer is cognizant of the fact that this is a maufactured guise, a comic book-like creation that one can don and discard with ease, and without serious disintegration to a personality with a tenuous grip on reality at best. Just using "Zodiac" is like calling someone named Robert, Bob. There is no distance.
Most of us are familiar with this kind of fantasizing from our childhood games. Who didn't act out backyard fantasies? Were you The Amazing SuperKid, or were you Schlocko? Think about it.
Oscar.
p.s. I must confess to being "The Blue Demon" during my university days. I would get drunk on cheap ripple wine, don a blue wrestling-type mask, and streak across the campus on moonlit nights. It was great fun. Ah, those were the days my friend, I thought....

By Realtor (Realtor) (208.128.16.97) on Wednesday, January 17, 2001 - 10:38 am:

Oscar:

STREAKING!?! Really, Oscar!!

I like the observation re: the comic book character persona. It sounds right...Like "The Flash" and "The Joker."

Realtor

By Realtor (Realtor) (208.128.16.97) on Wednesday, January 17, 2001 - 10:39 am:

And I meant to add: It goes along with "The Mikado" and "The Lord High Executioner."

Realtor

By Howard (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 64.30.209.40) on Wednesday, January 17, 2001 - 05:31 pm:

Since Zodiac was eclectic, he may have mind stacked,that is ,the title or name may have come from different sources, but came together to derive a name (and symbol,which is a different discussion).He was into pen names when he signed "A citiZen"( A cap/ c no cap);"Red Phantom";"Me";"rh";"yours truly",Robert Emmet The Hippi? Some of the symbols in his ciphers came from the medieval Zodiac alphabet(as I believe) so this could have been a trigger. It certainly is a strong possibility it came from his own interest in astrology,and a metaphysical view-the Zodiac represents the "12 classes of people"-"This IS the Zodiac SPEAKING".There is a book I will post later tonight that may have contributed to Zs choice of characters;but this is a different stream.The Zodiac car may be another source that was used as a police car in England;as Jake has so ably brought out(his site is unique).Z certainly hated the "pigs" as he called them.That Zodiac watch connection is another.The old 1930s Charlie Chan movie with the name of the main villain being DR.Zodiac could be a minder for the Zod'.The "Zodiac crimes" featuring Batman and Robin in the 1966 Batman series is about a criminal sending notes and codes to the police,etc, and committing crimes under different Zodiac signs.Or ,who knows, he could have had too much pizza and ice cream and had a bad dream and when he awoke...hmmm Zo....I posted some more info on this subject click howard -and you'll feel you didn't follow good food combining too!

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (171.philadelphia01rh.16.pa.dial-access.att.net - 12.90.17.171) on Wednesday, January 17, 2001 - 08:17 pm:

I believe Zodiac perceived himself as a kind of social "avenger." Perhaps Zorro served as a model?

By Howard (Howard) (dialup-63.209.89.232.losangeles1.level3.net - 63.209.89.232) on Thursday, January 18, 2001 - 01:26 am:

Doug-The Zorro connect has been brought out before as to the "Z" factor-and the symbolic 'rebel' meaning. Zodiac used the "Z" very rarely,as you know;twice, I think. Three times ,if one counts the note of 67'-four if the 11/69' Gaul typed Z note be added;fat chance!.There was a movie at that period called Z. I don't know what it was about -do you?The killer's attraction for the letter Z could have been another sublim' in his choice of pen names-Zodiac. It kind of puzzles me that Zodiac didn't use the Z more often.I have already posted that Manson was obsessed with the letter Z(see howard).Of course, you will remind me that Ted's last name has a big ol' Z in it huh? Zoward-can't lick em' join em'!Right Zoug?It's time for some Zs it's late!

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (28.philadelphia01rh.16.pa.dial-access.att.net - 12.90.17.28) on Thursday, January 18, 2001 - 09:41 am:

Howard--One of the first things that caught my eye when Kaczynski was arrested was the almost-anagram of his name in "the Zodiac speaking." One "k" and a "y" are missing, though.

By Peterh (Peterh) (209.8.9.214) on Thursday, January 18, 2001 - 10:48 am:

Its not quite that close "Theodore Kaczynski" contains an [extra] O, an R, a Y and an [extra] K that do not match up and an [extra] A, an [extra] I, a P, and a G in "the Zodiac speaking". Close enough for government work (or some of the police work in this case) maybe.

By Linda (Linda) (207-172-145-131.s4.as6.fdk.md.dialup.rcn.com - 207.172.145.131) on Thursday, January 18, 2001 - 04:10 pm:

Thought you might find this interesting... Gary Greenberg, a psychotherapist from Connecticut has been corresponding with Ted Kaczynski. Through Timothy McSweeney's "Green Pastures of Want and Red Seas of Shudder," Mr. Greenberg presents a series of articles which are exerpts from his work, "In the Kingdom of the Unabomber." Part III of the Series is entitled, "The Mark of Zorro." Go to: http://www.mcsweeneys.net/1999/08/31unabom3.html

Linda

By Howard (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 64.30.209.40) on Monday, January 22, 2001 - 06:50 pm:

Pam is right about Darlene asking what someone's sign was; she was very much into astrology and numerology.When I spoke to Ds ex Dean Ferrin ,he confirmed this. She,it would seem ,had a fair knowledge and interest in the occult in general.When Hoffman (of VPD at the time) was interviewed he admitted that he and Darlene had an ongoing affair and that she shared a lot of personal matters with him that she had not told others.She told H that she had been involved with some kind of an occult group and that there were threats against her and her husband/family(not that her family was aware of this) at that time (husband was James Phillips aka Crabtree). D eventually left the group. D had met an older man,according to Hoffman,and traveled with him prior to marrying Crabtree (in 1966). This "man" was a member of the aforementioned group.D did not say who this man was ,but she did give some clues as to his appearance,etc.This strange man was involved in the occult also.Darlene told H of her past involvement with drugs(always a bad deal!)and that she was sorry for doing some of the things she had done in her past. After they broke up D went back to taking drugs and H felt that she had taken the break up pretty hard and this may have contributed to her escalation of drug use.I am looking for any part of the interview that may have described this mystery man. The problem -and from all accounts -Darlene went with a lot of people,including dating different men. She loved the unusual and this included people.Anyone of these people she knew could have been the shooter, as many speculate-but this is not necessarily true. All of the 'mystery' men following or harassing Darlene could have been just that -harassment-someone else could have killed her. When you think long and hard it's all speculation. This case is amazing-and quite slippery;just when you pin someone down another possible pops up -no wonder it has humbled investigators and do it yourself sleuths alike!

By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (mail.ci.colospgs.co.us - 204.131.210.1) on Monday, January 22, 2001 - 10:31 pm:

Interesting post, Howard! It is precisely because of the MULTIPLE directions and curious circumstances surrounding the Ferrin/Mageau attack, and the peculiar personal lives and ideosyncracies of the two victims, that I believe it to be the key to this whole mess! There are unanswered questions coming out of the woodwork, and even the answers seem to incite more questions.

It's curious, I think, that so much acceptance has been given to the assertion that "Z" probably did not kill Bates in Riverside, but did know the killer, or at least was close enough to know the details of the crime. Supposing this scenario is true, then what would prevent the same scenario (dare I say, M.O.?) being repeated again later on, such as in the Ferrin/Mageau attack?

Who's to say that Ferrin's murder did not have a much more mundane motive, one having to do with her involvement with so many shady characters (and Mageau certainly fits this mold himself), the occult, drugs, and perhaps most interestingly, police officers? Perhaps she was perceived as a threat (real or unreal) to one or more persons precisely because she was associating with police officers...

In such a case, "Z" would not have had to do the killing at all (which explains a lot)! He would only have to know (ala' Bates) the person who did it, or at least be in a position to acquire such details, and then take credit for it as a "Z" crime, even though it wasn't.

I think it's also important to note that Howard's evidence is a corroboration of comments Pam has made (the same Pam Huckaby who lived through these events and who was the sister to Darlene, and yet many here seem anxious to just write her off as a worthless source of information that cannot be taken seriously); as such, I think we must take note of her views with great seriousness (whether you believe them or not) so that when and if corroboration does present itself, it can be duly noted.

So many questions...

Bruce M.

By Pamhuckaby (Pamhuckaby) (ac943f12.ipt.aol.com - 172.148.63.18) on Tuesday, January 23, 2001 - 07:04 pm:

Dear Howard and Bruce,
I am glad that there are a hand full of people that will at least listen to some of my views. Yes I did live with this and I was very close to Darlene. I believe that if you find the key to her trip she took and find Mike Mageau, we can unlock this mystery, which seems so hard but it is not really. I have alot more things I would love to share but I am afraid of being made fun of so I keep them to myself. I would love to have some closure to this so we might all rest.

Thank you, guys

Pam

By Pamhuckaby (Pamhuckaby) (ac943f12.ipt.aol.com - 172.148.63.18) on Tuesday, January 23, 2001 - 07:23 pm:

Dear Bruce and Howard (are you the Howard that came to my house and we had a nice interview?)
Anyway you both my e-mail me and I will tell you something unbeleiveable.

PamHuckaby@aol.com

By Pamhuckaby (Pamhuckaby) (ac943f12.ipt.aol.com - 172.148.63.18) on Tuesday, January 23, 2001 - 07:26 pm:

DARLENE GAVE HIM THE NAME "ZODIAC" I said 30 years ago and I will continue saying it.

By Hurley (Hurley) (spider-wo042.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.200.37) on Tuesday, January 23, 2001 - 07:44 pm:

Pam, please don't worry about being made fun of. I for one am very interested in what you have to say. Even if you don't share it here with us I do wish someone would come along and organize everything you know and have to say. I can't believe that after all this time that hasn't happened. The same with Sandy. Yes, maybe there are some things that aren't relevent but no one will ever know if it's not investigated. Have you ever thought about a private investigator? But I guess that could be expensive.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Tuesday, January 23, 2001 - 10:54 pm:

Pam I must be having a senior moment! I don't remember writing anything about knowing Darlene could sew. Can you find the post you are referring to,and the date? I didn't want to wake you up again, so I thought it better to post. I just got home and heard you called.

By Howard (Howard) (dialup-63.209.93.165.losangeles1.level3.net - 63.209.93.165) on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 02:28 am:

Pam-It was me that interviewed you at your old house in Antioch. Your husband knew my aunt and uncle at Clear Lake.Small world.I remember that bullet hole in your wall!My E: antaresresearch@hotmail.com and www.zodiacmurders.com (my web site).The photo envelope that you showed me has been challenged as to who really wrote those words, stuck,hacked,etc. Do you have any thing to offer on this?

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dialup-63.210.120.228.losangeles1.level3.net - 63.210.120.228) on Monday, February 19, 2001 - 01:39 am:

Some PD history on Darlene and James Douglas Crabtree(aka Phillips).Darlene left home on 11/25/65,because of a family dispute. The family did not hear from her again until Oct. of 1966.She came home with Phillips as her husband ,they having married in Reno ,NV on 1/1/66.Darlene told her mother they had returned from the Virgin Islands where they lived for 5 MOS.Phillips claimed he owned a newspaper in the Islands and had been an undercover agent in the U.S.Army(got some oceanfront property for you in Vegas if you believe that!).After a short time the couple moved to PA. and lived there several MOS(Bruce Davis lived in PA for a time in the 60s -one city was Harrisburgh FYI).They later returned to Vallejo.

Crabtree(Phillips) was later interviewed by VPD.He said he met Darlene at the Haight -Ashbury district around Aug. of 65.And the rest has been given. Crabtree had connections to L.A. /S.F.and I am trying to find out who he knew .We know he bought a '63 Corvair in Oct.of 66/7(?)in L.A. and later left it in a lot in L.A. and told the owner to pick it up as he couldn't pay for it.

He claims he now left for Mexico.He stayed a few weeks and returned to S.F.He saw Darlene one last time and he never saw her again-or at least, he claimed this.He met and began living with a woman(not necessary to give her name)Jan.'69,but later moved to Santa Cruz,CA.Crabtree was born: 5/8/44 in L.A.,CA.

The marriage ended in divorce on 6/2/67 in Reno.

One point of interest.Joseph Delouise,the famous psychic,according to PD reports ,said that he 'felt'that Crabtree had some knowledge of or was somehow involved in Darlene's murder.

By Chalandra (Chalandra) (tsway1-5.du.gate.net - 207.36.1.132) on Monday, February 19, 2001 - 03:43 am:

Howard,

Have you been able to find out what part of Pa. Darlene lived in yet?

Chalandra

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 64.30.209.40) on Monday, February 19, 2001 - 04:21 pm:

No-But Pam may know. I am going to ask Crabtree-he certainly would know. Also, who did they meet while there? The PD did not fully question JDC over a period of time to get all the necessary info. What's new? Pam where did Darlene live while in PA?Now, this is where a family member can shine. I will try and ask Christina, Dee's younger sister.

By Eduard Versluijs (Eduard) (i0286.pvu.euronet.nl - 194.134.165.31) on Monday, March 05, 2001 - 04:08 am:

Maybe a possible Zodiac inspiration....?
Detective Comics #332...issue of January 1964.
In this comic Batman fights it out with a guy named Zodiac Master (master as in connection with slaves?).

-Eduard

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 64.30.209.40) on Monday, March 05, 2001 - 07:15 pm:

Eduard -Most interesting!Good for you. There was a Batman series in 1966 called the Zodiac Crimes. Letters and puzzles were sent to the police and even a small knife is mentioned!The crimes were committed by two men and they followed the signs of the Zodiac.There's more ,but these, and your discovery, could have influenced Z-there is 'stacking' in the mind until the need arises and then one draws from the stored material as needed.

By Mike D. Smith (Mike_D) (spider-mtc-tb023.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.104.28) on Tuesday, March 06, 2001 - 11:04 am:

About a year ago I found referance in a book on Spiritualism of a British psychic of the 1920's c who supposedly "channelled" a spirit that called himself Zodaic!This Zodiac supposedly was a former priest in Soloman's Temple in Jerusalem and used to discourse on religious topics.Thats the 1st time I know of an individual being called by the astrological term Zodiac.
Did Zodiac grow up in a spiritualist home and hear the name mentioned?Its worth noting spiritualists conceive of the afterlife as a continuation of this-not a cloudy wispy realm.Remember Z's letters describing "paradice"
very material.At no point however do Spirtualists believe in "slaves in the afterlife"Z may have borrowed elemnts of their faith to his own.And theirs that british connection again!
Mike d.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-67.linkline.com - 64.30.217.67) on Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 01:53 am:

Mike- Bruce Davis went to England at least twice and loved all things English/Irish-a Celt man.he was totally into the occult and read books on the subject. A BBC interviewer told me that when Davis was in Manchester he was 'seen with some witches and they went to some cities in England'.Davis got the "slaves in paradise"from Manson who got the teaching at a house where occultists met. Manson said he met a woman in S.F. who "was pumped up about devil worship and other Satanic activities...her home had some...far out ,spaced out, weird people...each time I returned I would observe and listen to all the practices and rituals of the different groups..."Susan Aitkins who lived on Lyon St.in S.F. said that Manson believed the people that they were killing would be his slaves in the afterlife.He told them that people would be waiting for them in paradise". This was in the L. A. Times and was told to Ronnie Howard at the time.I have already posted the quote.Manson got several books on spiritualism whiles at Mc Neil prison. You made an interesting discovery!Zodiac was definitely into the occult -it shows all over the place!

By Mike D. Smith (Mike_D) (spider-wc042.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.193.37) on Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 08:33 pm:

Makes sense to me.Did I ever mention my theory about the mysterious ebeortpiti or whatever it is?I think its a spell. Zodiacs equivalent of abracadabra.Perhaps a incantation to hide him from his enemies. Right before it he said "I will not give you my name....."Perhaps he assumed this "magic word" would keep him invisible-figuretively if not literally.Looks like it worked!
Mike d.

By Alan Cabal (Alan) (spider-mtc-tc054.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.105.174) on Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 09:40 pm:

Ronnie Howard isn't exactly what I'd call a reliable witness, Howard. As far as Z being "into the occult", to the extent that he (they?) realized it could be used to generate fear, yes, certainly. That's why Manson got into it. How do you think a 5'4" white guy protects himself in the prison system?

By Ed N. (Ed_N) (spider-mtc-tb072.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.104.52) on Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 10:32 pm:

Alan... he doesn't need to anymore. So I understand, he's kept apart from the general prison population. How many prisoners would love to stick a shiv in him, just to go down in history as the one who offed Manson?

By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-57.linkline.com - 64.30.217.57) on Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 01:13 am:

Mike D-The opening of Zodiac's letters(some)he says "This IS the Zodiac speaking;"This sounds like he thinks he is "inspired"-like he is speaking for someone. This concerns your spiritism find.It's strange phraseology nonetheless.My guy was certainly into these kinds of things. Davis says that a "spirit" possessed him for a time and then left and later came to him again.He said it started in '65-66.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-57.linkline.com - 64.30.217.57) on Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 01:39 am:

Alan-I simply stated that Aitkins "told" Ronnie Howard. Now WHO reported the "slaves in the afterlife"reference-two L.A. Times reporters that were there and were learning all they could on the case.I have already posted on this .As far as Ronnie Howard goes -legal genius (and undefeated in court) Vincent Bugliosi told my associate-and he is made this statement in interviews-that Ronnie was a "great witness"-she helped to bring the case to adjudication.

Where did you derive your information on Manson and his supposed belief in the occult?I was amazed you would make such a statement!He has (since Mc Neil prison days)and does have a firm belief in paganism, witchcraft, and astrology(I interviewed his guard and Manson wanted to do his chart!). In an interview Manson said he 'watched the cross(of Christ) go by and he welcomed the alter of the Druids'. He firmly believes in Druidism.I have delved into Manson since 1974 and know people that were intimate with him and them ALL say his belief in the occult is real!It is not an act to protect himself in prison-that is simply not true!

By Eduard Versluijs (Eduard) (1cust107.tnt35.rtm1.nl.uu.net - 213.116.164.107) on Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 02:12 am:

I just found out about yet another Zodiac-inspiration.
In a magazine called "Screen Stories" dated July 1966, there is an horoscope made of Adam West (actor of Batman). The guy who made the horoscope was Mr. Zodiac.
What is also very interesting is the cover of the magazine with the announcements about what is in the magazine.
some stuff you can read on the magazine's cover:
- A complete guide to the movies.
- Sidney Poitier in "duel at Diablo"
- Agatha Christy's "the alphabet murders"
- The stars'warning...Batman be aware for women
- "The Group" The most controversial movie in a decade.
This magazine was on sale only 3 months prior to the Bates-killing.

By Eduard Versluijs (Eduard) (1cust107.tnt35.rtm1.nl.uu.net - 213.116.164.107) on Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 02:50 am:

Oh I forgot....
The horoscope story ends with:"Time will tell if he'll take Mr. Zodiac's other warnings just as seriously".

Also a few books Adam West read on that moment are talked about....
- "Devil and the Doctor" by Dylan Thomas
- "Murder for profit" by Bolitho
and "The romance of lower mathematics"

Weird isn't it?

-Eduard

By Alan Cabal (Alan) (spider-to057.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.204.27) on Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 05:02 am:

That is truly weird, Eduard.

Howard, Manson was an occult dilletante, a dabbler, what we on the circuit call a "skippy", as in skipping from subject of inquiry to subject of inquiry with no rhyme or reason. Whatever he has become, his primary motivation for these investigations was self-defense and other manipulative-social actions.

His involvement with the Process was very limited. Word has it that a few Processeans in Toronto got burned in a $10,000+ drug deal by Sebring and Wykowsky, and used Charlie to settle the score. The Manson Family was what you would call a gang if they were black or Mexican.

This by no means rules out Bruce Davis, who exhibited considerably more smarts AND weirdness than most of them, including Charlie. I think you make a pretty good case for him being Z. I don't buy it, but that's not to say that it is entirely implausible.

If you haven't seen it, you really should check out Nick Schreck's video, CHARLES MANSON SUPERSTAR. Schreck has done an enormous amount of work on the Manson case and puts things together very nicely in that work.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 64.30.209.40) on Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 05:33 pm:

Alan-Thanks for feed back. I just saw the video you mentioned. I am at work so will comment on your reply later-this for now.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-2.linkline.com - 64.30.217.2) on Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 11:53 pm:

Eduard,

I think you have made an excellent discovery. Of course, anything like your material could have been stacker material that was mentally filed only to be ,possibly, drawn on for Zodiac's later crimes.We do not know which sources-like Dr. Zodiac- but they show they were available to someone of Z's mind slant.

These kinds of sources become important if witnesses saw the suspect reading and/or discussing them. If they are found in a suspect's dwelling and especially if these kinds of writings have significant points that are delineated and they relate to key areas of the crimes.This has happened in the past.If the suspect confesses and reveals sources of inspiration and these are your kinds of reading material they are of some significance-just some more pieces to fit the puzzle. Keep searching!

By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-2.linkline.com - 64.30.217.2) on Friday, March 09, 2001 - 12:34 am:

Alan,

Yes, Manson studied many different belief systems and different aspects of the occult. In my book I print a testimony of a man that was well versed in all aspects of the occult, and he had a three hour conversation with Manson in 1967. He says that Manson was fully conversant in the occult and he even went into many other kindred subjects. He ends that the "conversation centered on the occult...he [Manson]was very knowledgeable."Now, I do not care what his reasons (I cannot look in his mind)were/are for studying the occult and these other subjects-I am only concerned if they were facets in the Zodiac case. I stay focused.

I do know that he has strong convictions about certain aspects of the occult and ,yes, he uses them for his own ends.But, from all that I could find out-he believes in these teachings.

As far as getting someone to "buy" my conviction that Davis was involved in the Zodiac crimes would serve no real purpose-it would not change anything.My interest is to post and see if anyone has any info,and each poster can fit and apply as he or she sees fit.If they see something they can use great!This applies to all the other Zodiacologists out there too!I have gotten some posts that really helped me in my search and some private e-mails that have been more than helpful!No one has to buy anything-we are here to share, learn and hopefully,to become more aware of this complicated case if that is our interest.For some Zodiac is a kind of hobby-a deep mystery and they enjoy all the posts. I really appreciate Tom doing the Board. I think a lot of people have enjoyed sharing in the mystery that is the Zodiac!

I have added some info on Donna Lass :www.zodiacmurders.com on my little ol' site-I am growing though! Tom's site is recognized as the Top site on Zodiac and it should be!It's home for we Zodiacers!

By Bruce Monson (Bruce_Monson) (mail.ci.colospgs.co.us - 204.131.210.1) on Saturday, March 10, 2001 - 01:49 pm:

Hi Everyone,

Eduard you stole my thunder!

I came across this same Screen Stories magazine article a couple weeks ago and was blown away by the number of Zodiac similarities. In addition to the one's you mentioned above (most notably Mr. Zodiac) there are some others:

(1) The magazine issue is actually June, not July; thus, numerically you get 6/66 (666!)

(2) Adam West states in the article that he enjoys "skin diving"

(3) He makes a comment about not being careful: "But that's being alive to me, seizing that moment of danger." and "I seem to have a taste for self-inflicted danger."

(4) He was married to a certain Ngarua Frisbie, the daughter of a Polynesian princess...

(5) Note, this is not listed in this article (it appears in article mentioned below), but Adam West (Batman) also lived in Hawaii for a while and spent four years as an actor and director of a variety show there.

(6) The astrologer, Mr. Zodiac, says [of West], "And his superiority attitude hides a deep inferiority complex."


There is also another article from The Saturday Evening Post (May 2, 1966). The article is titled: Has TV GASP! Gone Batty?

I noticed some interesting parallels in this article as well:

(1) The original inventor of the Batman comic strip and it's illustrator is a man by the name of Bob Kane! He says, "Batman is what I always wanted to be but never could." and "Something happens to people when they see a guy in that suit."

(2) During a ride in a taxi, "Kane coyly asked the driver if he had seen Batman. The man said yes, and Kane asked him how he liked the show. 'I think it stinks,' said the cabbie. Kane looked shocked, but said nothing."

(3) "A tall man walks by in a bathrobe. He has uncombed red-blond hair, black-rimmed glasses...

(4) The "Hawaii" connection mentioned above.

(5) The executive producer, William Dozier, states in the article that: "Batman would invade England this summer and that a sale to Japan was being discussed."

I have already got copies of everything in the process of being sent to me:

(1) A Video of the Batman episode: "The Zodiac Crimes" (this wasn't easy to get!)

(2) A complete original script of the above episode.

(3) A complete cover-to-cover copy of this Screen Stories magazine (I look forward to reading about the "Duel at Diablo" and "The Alphabet Murders"; it should be interesting.

(4) The books mentioned in the article:
Devil and the Doctor by Dylan Thomas
Murder for Profit by Bolitho
The Romance of Lower Mathematics by Norton Juster. This title has just been re-released under the title, The Dot and the Line: A Romance in Lower Mathematics

These items should start arriving any day now.

I am also trying to hunt down a copy of Detective Comics, #332 (Jan. 64) "Zodiac Master".

Cesar Romero connection
He also starred in The Thin Man (1934). Since this is a rather famous show it would be worth pouring over it to see if we can spot any Zodiac similarities. I think it's becoming rather obvious that the Zodiac killer was, indeed, affected by all of these old shows we keep seeing similarities with, especially Charlie Chan at Treasure Island, The Most Dangerous Game, Batman, and most likely others we haven't considered yet.

Crossed-Circle Symbol
One final note on "Zodiac" and the crossed-circle. I think while everyone continues to look for physical representations of the name "Zodiac" appearing together with the crossed-circle symbol they forget that that symbol in and of itself has been associated with the astrological Zodiac for millennia since it represents the solstice and vernal equinox over the sun.

It is not a big step by any stretch of the imagination that a person who utilized either the name "Zodiac" or the "crossed-circle symbol" would know that they were representative of each other. Indeed, it would be remarkable if he used one and did not know about the other.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Bruce Monson

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acb54647.ipt.aol.com - 172.181.70.71) on Saturday, March 10, 2001 - 02:15 pm:

I have "The Zodiac Master" comic.

By Bruce Monson (Bruce_Monson) (mail.ci.colospgs.co.us - 204.131.210.1) on Saturday, March 10, 2001 - 04:56 pm:

TOM:
I have "The Zodiac Master" comic.

BRUCE:
Really! I have been calling tons of comic dealers and none of them have had it. Where did you get it and how much can one expect to pay?

Is there any Z-like verbage in it?

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (ac8b70e5.ipt.aol.com - 172.139.112.229) on Saturday, March 10, 2001 - 05:25 pm:

I'll post it as soon as I have permission.

I've read it a couple of times, but have yet to notice anything Z-like.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-53.linkline.com - 64.30.217.53) on Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 12:35 am:

Bruce-Good stuff!These parallels could have been mental stackers for Zodiacs' later manifestations as expressed in his missives and 187's!
That you would obtain and observe these items at the same time as Eduard is amazing-another one of Ed's zynchronicities!

I brought out the Zodiac Crimes episode in the '66(66 again and the Bates' 187 with a 'small Batman knife'!) Batman series in my book, but I was only wading -you and Eduard are swimming!

By Eduard Versluijs (Eduard) (1cust161.tnt34.rtm1.nl.uu.net - 213.116.162.161) on Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 05:24 am:

Bruce, sorry for taking away your thunder.
Amazing that we worked on the same stuff at the same moment.
The article you told us about was unknown to me but interesting.
Keep up the good work...

-Eduard

By Eduard Versluijs (Eduard) (i0165.pvu.euronet.nl - 194.134.164.166) on Monday, March 12, 2001 - 12:58 am:

I found some more Zodiac-stuff in old comics...

Adventure Comics #120:"the archer from the Zodiac"
Green Arrow vs John Centaur who predicts crimes with astrology.

All Star Comics #42:"the man who hated science"
Justice Society fights the alchemical menace of professor Zodiac.
(I have a scan of this one's cover!)

-Eduard

By Bruce Monson (Bruce_Monson) (mail.ci.colospgs.co.us - 204.131.210.1) on Monday, March 12, 2001 - 04:26 pm:

Eduard,

A local comic store has the All Star Comics #42 and I will be picking it up tomorrow. Amazingly they also had Adventure Comics #120 but $#@#$#^%$!!! SOLD IT EARLIER TODAY! Can you believe that!?

Bruce

By Ed N (Ed_N) (spider-ntc-ta014.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.16.24) on Monday, March 12, 2001 - 05:20 pm:

It must've been Z buying the evidence...

By Eduard Versluijs (Eduard) (i0492.pvu.euronet.nl - 194.134.165.237) on Monday, March 12, 2001 - 11:20 pm:

Bruce,
I hope it will not be to expensive to buy this oldie.
If you have it I would be interested to know what you found inside.
A useful tip:
Most old comics you can't buy anymore but some of them return in reprint versions.
I know that there are some books wherein you can find for example #1-#15 of one comic-series.
If you are in the comic-store keep an eye out for those books.
I will also will do the same in a dutch comicbook shop (they sell american comics and reprints of them!).
Good luck, Bruce!

-Eduard (a big comic fan)

By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-50.linkline.com - 64.30.217.50) on Monday, March 12, 2001 - 11:55 pm:

Bruce/Eduard-Have you tried ,say, Direct Hit/Amazon.com ,etc.in your comic book search?

We surmise Z was into old movies(Treasure Island, Red Phantom-and the latest movies-"I saw and think the Exorcist...";why not comic books?This is someone who probably liked science fiction,true crime magazines(Jack the Ripper-Ned Kelly,etc.), gun mail order magazines, anti -detection books,astrology, the occult/metaphysics,comic books(especially Batman),solider of fortune type magazines and possibly bios of men like Robert Emmet,plays like the Mikado,scientology type groups,white surpremists litrature/ groups,newspapers(he certainly read the Enterprise, Times, Chronicle, Examiner, Vallejo times Herald, etc., literature,cipher books/magazines,etc. You guys may be on to something.

By Eduard Versluijs (Eduard) (i0492.pvu.euronet.nl - 194.134.165.237) on Tuesday, March 13, 2001 - 05:13 am:

Bruce/Howard I will be off the MB for 2 weeks....but when I return I will have a little suprise with me.
Be patient!

-Eduard

By MDB (Michael_D_Brown) (micro67.lib3.hawaii.edu - 128.171.57.67) on Friday, May 11, 2001 - 01:02 pm:

My own private Zodiac has the 1st name of Michael.
He chose the name Zodiac from his distorted interpretation of the Urantia writings.
"...Urthona, also known as Zoa, meaning living creatures, from which we obtain our English word ZODIAC."
http://www.nccg.org/FAQ120-Urantia.html
"...and of these by far the most intriguing are the incarnational bestowals of the Paradise Sons."
http://www.urantia.org/papers/paper120.html
"The Bestowal of Michael on Urantia"
And yes, my suspect is STILL either Black or Aborigine....

By Esau (Esau) (proxy2-external.scrmnt1.ca.home.com - 24.4.254.113) on Sunday, May 13, 2001 - 07:54 pm:

Aborigine? Are you sure he isn't Bebbolian?

By MDB (Michael_D_Brown) (micro53.lib3.hawaii.edu - 128.171.57.53) on Monday, May 14, 2001 - 02:41 pm:

Well I must admit the idea my suspect is not white is an assumption. Amongst the 250 pages of cryptography I found was a photograph of someone I asuumed is the author. I've never seen my suspect, only his indecipherable writings.

By Peter_H (Peter_H) (cbrg0381.capecod.net - 63.211.185.127) on Monday, May 14, 2001 - 03:17 pm:

And it doesn't matter to you that witnesses who certainly came face to face with Z, and others who probably did and still others who may have may have all describe him as white?

By Jake (Jake) (spider-wo031.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.200.31) on Tuesday, May 15, 2001 - 03:08 pm:

Peter, MDB is either schizo, writing from Uranus, or playing a long and boring practical joke. Is there an emoticon for the jackoff symbol?

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Peter_H (Peter_H) (cbrg0705.capecod.net - 63.211.186.197) on Tuesday, May 15, 2001 - 06:57 pm:

Yes, in fact, there is, but the graphics on this board don't support it.

--pH

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-tm013.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.197.48) on Tuesday, May 15, 2001 - 09:15 pm:

MDB,
there is a greater chance that Zodiac was actually a dyke, or a woman posing as a man than your theory.

By MDB (Michael_D_Brown) (micro51.lib3.hawaii.edu - 128.171.57.51) on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 03:25 pm:

The difference is I'm working with evidence that I found under a bridge in a partially burnt satchel containing over 250 pages of cryptography using Zodiac symbols. Amongst the items was a photograph of a black/aborigine man whom I've "assumed" is the author. Whereas you all are using evidence 30 years old and rife with potential error. So go ahead and keep thinking the world is flat.

By Bill Bratton (Willy) (c1465163-a.sttls1.wa.home.com - 65.12.128.183) on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 04:22 pm:

MDB - I think you're making in-roads with Sylvie. On May 16 at 3:35 she posted a message about a "possible Z coonection".

(forgive me, but we gotta laugh here once in a while too).

Could you tell us how dark skinned your suspect is? Could he be mistaken for caucasian, but for hairstyle? Keep going my man, and remember that many on this board believe in a "Z-Team" of two or more.

By Bill Bratton (Willy) (c1465163-a.sttls1.wa.home.com - 65.12.128.183) on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 11:10 pm:

Hey! Esau, Peter H, Jake, Sylvie - Hows about we allow MDB to still participate on this web on equal terms. Beliefs that the Zodiac killer must be one man, who must be Caucasian are not facts by any means. What if it's two people?

If we don't like the area this guy's investigating, maybe we should just have Tom lock him off the board?

Look, MDB is asking for your help to prove, or dis-prove his suspect. If you can prove that the Zodiac was one person, and furthermore prove that one of them wasn't a negro, then I'd bet that MDB would agree with you and back off.

Come on...the folks on this web are well above the type of comments that I've seen lately. Can any of you bear to give MDB a "welcome back"?

By Peter_H (Peter_H) (cbrg0565.capecod.net - 63.211.186.57) on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 07:49 am:

Bill: MDB can participate all he wants as far as I am concerned, and I never implied otherwise. He and many of the other kooks on the board are highly entertaining, sometimes as much so as the serious investigators. On the other hand, no one has an obligation to prove anything for his benefit. The burden - in his case a heavy one -- is on him. I mean, come on, his theory turns out to be based entirely on a load of cryptography he found under a bridge, also containing a picture that he "assumes" to be that of the author? Doesn't demonstrate the remotest connection with Z in time, place or logic, or any basis for concludiong the picture is that of the author. This is "rife" with something more than "potential error". This is fair game.

Oh, and Bill: we laugh plenty on this board without your brand of hunor. Why don't you stick it?

By Jake (Jake) (spider-mtc-ta014.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.105.24) on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 02:20 pm:

Hey Bill, let me get this straight: you place a snapshot found in the garbage on "equal terms" with the work that Tom, Doug, Ed N, and Gregorypraxas have done over the years? There's more logic in a two-line post from The Roger than in ODB's entire corpus.

ODB isn't asking for help or investigating anything. He's determined a suspect using an incomprehensible method and has yet to offer a shred of evidence to support it. If this is a joke, it isn't funny. If it isn't a joke, it's frigging hilarious.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By MDB (Michael_D_Brown) (205.149.115.117) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 02:54 pm:

Very comprehensive work done over the years? Why then, have none of you published the "1971 Letter from the Zodiac" published no-where else but the 1994 San Francisco Chronicle? I've posted this before yet no-one seems to care.
And Jake my method is incomprehensible to you because there is much I've not told you.
The photo wasn't found in the garbage. It was found under a bridge (between two home movie screens placed to offer privacy) in a partially burnt satchel. The suspect spent many hours there evidenced by discarded batteries and receipts for same within the satchel.
I copy everything I post here and the reactions it draws...someday...who knows?

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 05:33 pm:

All of you can make fun if you like,But I have seen one of my suspects in many disguises. He was wore dark make-up, had on gerry curls (a wig). It was 2:30 in the morning, I was at a stop light,the man walked pass two lanes and two cars. I was in the 3rd lane, further away than the other cars. He tried to open my car door! I was able to see his crossed eye,then I realized who he was. Obviously I got away again. I have seen him in drag twice! I even spoke to him thinking he was a woman. I have seen the same one looking about 45years old and with in a few months saw him looking 75 yrs old. So don't think he couldn't look black,he has. Keep a open mind when it comes to the z.

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-mtc-ti032.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.101.162) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 07:07 pm:

Sandy,
Does this guy really want to kill you or is he just playing with you? I mean you've been shot at and all kinds of things. If it really was Z, do you really think he'd MISS???

By Ed N (Ed_N) (spider-ntc-tc014.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.17.24) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 08:40 pm:

MDB: the cipher/letter you are talking about appeared in "On The Trail of the Zodiac" on page 12 of This World in the Chronicle on May 8th, 1994. It may have also appeared in an earlier (1980's) story also, I'll have to check, but the reason no one cares is that it certainly doesn't look like Z's work in any way. Both the handwriting and the way the cipher is laid out do not resemble anything he's known to have written. I don't know if it was ever authenticated or not, and chances are that it was not.

By Ed N (Ed_N) (spider-ntc-tc081.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.17.56) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 11:30 pm:

Check this out: A Forgotten Letter/Cipher? on my site. I hastily threw it together, and please forgive the poor quality of the copies; library microfilm viewers/copiers are not the best!

In any case, you can see from the letter and cipher that it does not resemble Z's writing.

By Sharkey (Sharkey) (1cust131.tnt5.topeka.ks.da.uu.net - 63.15.252.131) on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 05:00 pm:

There might be something to this. I found a burnt satchel under a bridge that was full of white shoe polish. Disguise material? I also found Zodiac symbols that spelled out this anagram "!tihsfollufsiyroethsiht" What could this all mean????? ;-)

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Sunday, May 20, 2001 - 02:07 pm:

Well Sylvie, He was never a great shot! Now he has the worst case of the shakes (Thank God) One bullet came within 2inch.of my head but that was in 91. that bullet is still in the wall.Yes he likes to play with me , he knows I know who he is, yet I can't prove it.He likes that a lot,he is counting on people to think as you have , that if he was the real Z I would be dead. That works in my favor, as well as his.If I was to become a victim, he would be setting himself up to be caught . Don't forget I have documented everything, and turned it over to the police along with his picture.Even if my body wasn't found, I am very sure a 187 investigation would take place.He can't afford for that to happen,after all he has taken my life, hasn't he?

By Classic (Classic) (spider-mtc-tb013.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.104.23) on Sunday, May 20, 2001 - 05:30 pm:

Sharkey: thats a good one..hahaha

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-tn071.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.207.76) on Sunday, May 20, 2001 - 10:04 pm:

Sandy,
Thanx for the explanation, that explains the tantalization. Thank God he's so geriatric at this point. If DNA matches your suspect you can say a big---TOLD YOU SO!

By MDB (Michael_D_Brown) (micro58.lib3.hawaii.edu - 128.171.57.58) on Monday, May 21, 2001 - 02:32 pm:

Thanks Ed. Finally some mature sensible input.

By Jeff (Jeff) (spider-to013.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.204.48) on Friday, June 01, 2001 - 11:04 pm:

I was in Toy-R-Us birthday shopping for my son and noticed a navy seal GI-Joe. The name of the boat the figure is in is called Zodiac C-470 (I think that number is right). I don't know if this is in fact a real seal boat but it could be another connection to the military.

By MDB (Michael_D_Brown) (micro58.lib3.hawaii.edu - 128.171.57.58) on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 12:47 pm:

ZOA "The word zoa, which has been popularized by William Blake as the name for the beings of his Four Zoas, is sometimes thought to mean demons, whereas it really means living beings, the term itself being cognate with zodiac, the circle of living beings."
As copied from: "Dictionary of Demons: A Guide to Demons & Demonologists in Folklore" -Fred Gettings
(Rider,London,1988, p.253 under 'Zoa')

I've a hunch this all ties in with the Urantia Writings and how/where Zodiac derived his name.

http://www.nccg.org/FAQ120-Urantia.html
"...Urthona, also known as ZOA, meaning living creatures, from which we obtain our English word ZODIAC."

http://www.urantia.org/papers/paper120.html
"...and of these by far the most intriguing are the incarnational bestowals of the Paradise Sons."

By Spencer (Spencer) (tcache-mtc-ti01.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.101.196) on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 03:20 pm:

Jeff wrote:
" . . . The name of the boat the [G.I. Joe] figure is in is Zodiac C-470 (I think that number is right). I don't know if this is in fact a real seal boat but it could be another connection to the military."

Jeff,

In the case of the raft, Zodiac Marine USA's slogan is: "Supplying the World's finest Boats and Life Rafts for Leisure, Commercial, Rescue and Military uses." The company was founded in France as an air balloon manufacturer, and took the name Zodiac in 1909 (as well as trademarking a logo which consisted of "the signs of the Zodiac with
an airship moving across them". [Source: http://www.zodiacmarineusa.com]

I don't think the Zodiac raft is significant as a "connection to the military", but if you had a suspect who owned (or had regular use of) a Zodiac raft, you would have a piece of "evidence" that your suspect was/is the Zodiac killer (according to ALA advocates).

Spencer

By Eduard (Eduard) (erasmuscollege.nl - 194.109.60.77) on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 06:59 am:

About the word ZOA, It's the Dutch word for a sexual transmitted disease.
I just had to tell you,hahahaha! LOL

Eduard

P.S. I'm healty don't worry!

By Peter H (Peter_H) (cbrg1781.capecod.net - 64.152.211.3) on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 09:00 am:

About Zodiac inflatables: divers love 'em.

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-wq052.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.200.173) on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 09:02 am:

Jeff: All prospective SEALs and SEALs are very familiar with the boat that you described. The Navy officially calls it a CRRC (Combat Rubber Raiding Craft), but it is commonly referred to as a "Zodiac" for the very reason that Spencer pointed out: The name of it's manufacturer. I don't know about the toy you saw, but it is a 150 pound boat that prospective SEALs practically have to live with while undergoing B.U.D.S (Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL) training.

In this regard, the Zodiac raft is VERY significant in terms of its "connection to the military." It's also interesting to note that SEALs are members of the Navy, as was ALA.

Is it possible that Z was a B.U.D.S washout, an actual SEAL, or aspired to be a SEAL? Or maybe had a fascination with the SEALs? If so, he certainly would have known what a Zodiac/CRRC was.

Scott

By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-15.linkline.com - 64.30.217.15) on Monday, September 03, 2001 - 02:57 am:

Zotzed in the 'criminal dictionary 'means "killed" and Zodiac signed the Three Notes/Halloween card with a Z(on envelope)very rare usage) -just throwin' this in with the rest of the heap! FYI

By Ed N (Ed_N) (acbfc524.ipt.aol.com - 172.191.197.36) on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 01:27 am:

Here's something interesting that just popped into my head today (yesterday now) at work: "Mikado" contains the letters "a," "d," "i" and "o." "Zodiac" contains the letters "a," "d," "i" and "o" as well. The letters "c" and "k" are phonetically identical (in other words, they sound alike). All that's left are "m" and "z"; "m" is the 13th letter after "a," while "z" is the 13th letter after "m."

In other words, with just a little tweaking, "Mikado" is almost an anagram of "Zodiac." Could Z have done a little wordplay with "The Mikado," perhaps his favorite G&S opera, to come to the conclusion that he, the Zodiac, and the Mikado, were more-or-less equivalent?

It's pretty weird, but it's just a thought.

By Mike_D (Mike_D) (134.241.44.183) on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 11:30 am:

For your info Howard Zotz was also the name of a film from the early 60's.With Tom Posten as a guy who uses the magic word zotz! as a weapon against his enemies...

By Sandy (Sandy) (ppp-67-116-224-229.dialup.pltn13.pacbell.net - 67.116.224.229) on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 11:57 pm:

Ed, That sure gives us something to think about. Most of the clues that I have received, are numbers relating to the letters in the alphabet. For instance, one of my suspects played the song Mary Had a little Lamb on my phone recorder. At first I thought he was telling me that I would be his next lamb. Then I realized that the song he played had 26 notes. The 26th letter was Z, he was hinting that he was z. He has never told me he is Z. And for sure he wouldn't be stupid enough to leave a message like that on a recorder. He has left me his logo a few times,but more often has he written a Z. Once on the hood of my dates car ,so large that it covered the entire hood. Once on my bedroom window screen, it was scratched on with something sharp.Another time the antenna on my car was bent in the shape of a Z. Those are the ones that I found,I don't know how many clues I could have missed.I would think if it was someone who was just pretending to be him for the past 34yrs that person would try and scare me by saying : This is the Zodiac speaking. I had one phone call were he said: Its me. I said hello me ,this is me. Most of the time I would get three calls in a row,but the person wouldn't say anything.I wonderd "3" the third letter C ? C meaning yes? Then I looked at the phone, the number 3 was DEF.Darlene E.Ferrin! I will stop now, I get carried away as you well know. No, I never thought z was #3 Dale Earnhart!! Did I take away someones thunder?

By Howard Davis (Howard) (64.30.222.112.lcinet.net - 64.30.222.109) on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 02:50 pm:

I found out that the Los Angeles Central library has a large dome of the Zodiac replete with all the astrological symbols with the circular design of the Zodiac!There is a picture on the net of the Zodiac dome.
Zodiac claimed he killed people in Southern CA.("down there"i.e. SC),so there has always been the possibility he went to this library.
There was the Zodiac theatre too.FYI

By Mike (Oklahoma_Mike) (66.138.8.174) on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 08:30 am:

Let us not forget the Aquarius Theatre in Los Angeles. I recall it had several of the zodiac signs painted on the exterior in addition to that of the title sign. I have a photo of the theater with the marquee reading simply, "Hair".
Withe the hippie movement astrology was really big time back then, kind of like psychics now. One of the best selling books for months was "Sun Signs" referring to the 12 signs of the Zodiac!

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-157-189-209.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.157.189.209) on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 08:40 am:

Yu can add the ceiling of Bridges Auditorium at Pomona College in Claremont, very close to Pomona and not too far from Riverside. And probably a zillion other sites that bear this very common theme.