Zodiac's Esoteric Religious Beliefs


Zodiackiller.com Message Board: General Zodiac Discussion: Zodiac's Esoteric Religious Beliefs

By Glen Claston (dialup-209.244.92.125.dallas1.level3.net - 209.244.92.125) on Saturday, August 19, 2000 - 12:08 am:

repost:

Zodiac mentions "my gathering of slaves for my afterlife", as well as several other mentions of slaves, paradice slaves, etc.

I'm interested in anything that even remotely relates to these types of beliefs, whether it be found in a pamphlet, book, film, or religious text, past or present.

By Douglas Oswell (247.philadelphia01rh.16.pa.dial-access.att.net - 12.90.17.247) on Saturday, August 19, 2000 - 05:10 am:

In researching Ted Kaczynski I managed to read several books by Kaczynski's favorite author, L. Sprague de Camp. Among the more interesting passages from those books was the following quote from The Ancient Engineers:

Tomb robbers were drawn by the jewels and precious metals buried with kings and nobles, who thought that in the afterworld the spirit of a dead man needed the spirits of things he used in life to keep him happy. In the early days of Egypt, Mesopotamia and China, in addition to stores of food, clothing, weapons and ornaments, scores of attendants and guards-men were killed and buried with the king to serve him in the afterworld.

The Unabomber-Zodiac Connection

By Anonymous (1cust5.tnt2.san-angelo.tx.da.uu.net - 63.25.97.5) on Saturday, August 19, 2000 - 12:57 pm:

In the Osirisan Mysteries you find the Egyptian God Osiris who represent the Lord of the Dead , Ruler of the underworld. Osiris is the dispenser of justice and in Masonic terminology the Zodiac is represented by an oblong square with the 4 Cardinal points in each corner and Osiris in the middle. Osiris is ruled by Saturn which rules the day Saturday and is represented by the Nile River. In the Osirisan Mysteries the drama is always carried out between the waxing to the full moon on a sacred lake. Osiris is represented in several mythologies by either the Sun or the Moon. Osiris has been known to represent "the ruler of the dead" that is he judges the sinners and collects their souls for purification in the afterlife( they become his slaves). Many of Zodiac killings were on a Saturday or close to the midnight hour on Friday. He unconsciously or consciously choose to kill around bodies of water or references to water. He may have planned his killings between the waxing to full moon. If Zodiac were a Mason he may have identified himself with Osiris and may have felt protected by that identification.

By Anonymous (1cust43.tnt1.san-angelo.tx.da.uu.net - 63.27.101.43) on Sunday, August 20, 2000 - 04:33 am:

Osiris is also represented by the symbol of the circle with the cross in it. The same symbol Zodiac used. If you get a book on ancient symbols you can readily see that many of the Arcane symbols Zodiac used in his ciphers are a part of the Masonic mythology. The Osirisian mysteries are included in the Scottish Rite in the acquisition of degrees. My point is I feel Zodiac was a Mason and choose his name based on the Masonic definition of the word "Zodiac" and that he distorted the Osirisian mysteries to fit somehow his demented personality with the delusion that he was the reincarnation of Osiris in this particular lifetime. If Zodiac was a Mason this would have given him more access to information concerning the Zodiac case than your average individual.

By Glen Claston (dialup-209.245.235.39.dallas1.level3.net - 209.245.235.39) on Wednesday, August 23, 2000 - 08:04 pm:

As fascinated as I am with Egyptian mythology (I have been since I was eight), I'm looking for something a little more modern in historical terms, namely Greek (more precisely) Cypriot mythology. Anyone out there well versed in Greek-cultist mythology, especially anything originating from Cyprus?

By CheshireCat (mtvn-cas1-cs-41.dial.bright.net - 209.143.17.187) on Saturday, August 26, 2000 - 08:53 am:

I really think you might be headed the wrong way with this. Greek religion does not have a strong background of human sacrifice. However, there may be some obscure cult of which I have no knowledge. I think there is a greater possibility of connections in religions that more prominently feature human sacrifice.

By Glen Claston (dialup-209.244.95.187.dallas1.level3.net - 209.244.95.187) on Saturday, August 26, 2000 - 08:07 pm:

Thanks for the info. Just following a possible word that has its origin in Cyprus. It will be one of many during the course of this investigation, and all but one or two of them will be deadends. I'm very used to rejection. J

By MDB (Michaeldbrown) (205.149.115.118) on Tuesday, September 05, 2000 - 02:20 pm:

Is there any reference to Z using "Urantia"?
I think Z reference to "gathering of slaves for my afterlife" is his way of mocking Christianity.

By Anonymous (01-038.028.popsite.net - 216.126.180.38) on Monday, September 18, 2000 - 01:09 am:

Does anyone know whether Arthur Leigh Allen is a Scientologist? Just wondering...maybe Allen and Bruce Davis have met in a Scientologist circle?

By Matt (usr35-tel.cableinet.co.uk - 213.48.178.42) on Wednesday, September 20, 2000 - 05:59 pm:

We must recall that originally Scientology was just taught from one paperback book. Anyone would have had access to the (then) teachings of Scientology.

By Howard (dialup-209.245.74.239.losangeles1.level3.net - 209.245.74.239) on Thursday, September 21, 2000 - 12:01 am:

In an interview ,then Manson member Susan Aitkins ,said that all of their victims would be Charlies'(Manson) slaves or servants in the spirit world.Manson taught that there was a "paradise"and that there would be' 'people waiting for the Family when they got there'.Manson called his followers "slaves"(court transcripts)and that some day all would be his slaves(letters)as he was the god of that paradise.Tex Watson in his book said that Manson was into torture and taught the Family how to torture people-all part of Helter Skelter. Watson wrote that Manson wanted to put people in cages and imprison them and devise ways to torture them!It was a Greene that sent Manson ,while he was in prison in the 60s,occult books of every discription and where he attained the rank of "clear" by a Scientologist. Manson has said that he picked the brains of just about everyone he met .There was a house dubbed the Spiral Staircase where there were devil worshipers,satanists and other heavy occultists and I believe thats where CM got his slaves teaching as these kinds of people have different versions of the afterlife(I'll take the good ol'Biblical view anytime!) and their enemies serving them there. Manson told me in a letter that it was he"... and Bruce[Davis] that started the reborn movement in 1967".Speaking of Scientology it was Ron Hubbard(RH?) that wrote in his Dianetics book that" man is the most dangerous animal".He also wrote that all naval logs were" written in blue ink".I note that on some of Zs missives he used military numbering and ,of course ,blue ink !Z like Hubbard seemed to favor the navy.One Z writing was sent on Hubbards b-day march 13.

By Anonymous (07-139.028.popsite.net - 216.126.181.139) on Friday, September 22, 2000 - 05:11 pm:

Howard, thank you for your interesting comments!

1) Was Bruce Davis ever in the Navy?

2) Where can I find a copy of that interview with Susan Atkins?

3) Ron Hubbard's remark about man being "the most dangerous animal" apparently links him to Robert Connell, the author of "The Most Dangerous Game." I note that both were writers from the same period, the '40s. I think it may be a possibility that Arthur Leigh Allen (who was said to be a writer himself), who have read Robert Connell's book may also have read Ron Hubbard's books (but of course, anyone in the period from the '50s to the '60s could have read both books). Allen was also in the Navy. What think ye?

By Glen (dialup-209.245.237.23.dallas1.level3.net - 209.245.237.23) on Sunday, September 24, 2000 - 12:06 am:

I received this communique recently, and I wonder if there is any supporting opinion among the board members on this.

"In my opinion, the last 18 characters of the 408-character cipher are the signature of the author followed by the word "Piti" (sic). I derived this opinion after studying religious connections to the Z.... Anton Szandor LaVey of San Francisco, who was the leader, "high priest", of "the church of satan" and the author of "the satanic bible" instructed his followers to make their statement, sign their name, followed by the term "pity". I believe that Z followed this instruction."

I started this thread to try to nail down Zodiac's religious background, and this seems to do this very well. anybody have info on Anton Szandor? Anyone familiar with the mentioned texts?

By Howard (dialup-63.210.113.9.losangeles1.level3.net - 63.210.113.9) on Sunday, September 24, 2000 - 12:25 am:

Anon-no, Davis was never in the service;he was unfit. One of his old friends said that he and Bruce went to a PX and Bruce bought a pair of military shoes -"he liked wearing them" according to his friend.He would buy military clothing,packs,gear,knives,guns(he bought a 9mm in July of 69' and Ms gun expert Canadian born Danny Decarlo bought a gun also using the name Richard Allen!),etc.,at a military surplus store when he was in the Family.He had an intense interest in Scientology and Founder Ron Hubbards focus was on the navy as he had been in the navy.Davis was,like Manson obsessed with the Beatles and also believed that their songs were "messages" telling them how to start Helter Skelter. One song mentions a man going up north and his hair was brown . One song is called Its Only A Northern Song. One song mentions a military man.-just FYI.Manson and some of his people were in the bay area mid Dec. 68'! There was RHs Sea Org where his people would dress up in naval garb. Davis took a cruise on at least one of their ships.Davis was influenced by RH. Manson wanted a military theme in his group so as to get them into his coming Revolution. They had one member that worked at a military base and even stole a box of dynamite,military ,boots,clothes,etc. for the group.One guy was an explosives expert of sorts-a real nut case,but knew bombs,etc.Davis "was always threatening to blow someone up" according to Van Houghton, but said she 'it was all talk'.Manson told them to dress up and pretend to be anyone they wanted .Some sewed their own costumes .Some chose military style dress,etc.Fulfill your fantasys was the idea. Check out the Ned Kelly web sites for one of the possible inspirations for Zs Berryessa costume.One point of interest is a letter a Manson hanger on wrote to hard core member Sandra Good.In the letter Melton is angry about some things they had been saying about him and he threatens to 'snitch' on them concerning some past 187s- the same ones I list in my book!The statement that was of interest to me was when he wrote ;"Blue[Sandra Good ,M gave her that name to represent the water ]who sewed the Zodic( sic)costume for Brue[Bruce Davis]you dont want to open that can of worms enough said."I always knew she sewed it . Some of the girls were masters at embroidery-they made M a vest that was amazing-totally embroidered and woven depicting scenes from their history. Note that Hartnell was impressed with the embroidery that formed the cross/circle and the hood itself. All sewn by "Blue"!You will remember that the dispatcher heard 'female voices 'in the background when Z made his 9/27/69' call to Napa PD. Melton was asked in 69', as he brings out in his recent letter, by Good,Fromme and a couple of the girls, to go up to N. Ca. and kill some people and that he would be given knives,rope and three girls to help out -he flat out refused .The Aitkins interview was in the LA Times(1969) which I came across in the Torrance library on microfilm. All my stuff is packed in tons of boxes, but I will go through them as I get time. I have always tried to supply info.Out of respect for his excellent research I dug out a goodly portion of Z stuff and sent it to Tom some time ago.I also have to dig up the Jensen autopsy for EdN.Some things on the case should be held back though.Aleister Crowley the occultist believed in 'slaves in the afterlife'.Manson/ Davis were into Crowleys teachings and when Davis was in England witnesses say he was with some heavy occultists and witches in Manchester that adhered to AC and others of his ilk. I got a lot of material from Dave Peterson on this topic also.Dave and I feel there is every reason to believe Z was into the occult.I fully admit that I don't organize my research. I'm researching quite a large number of topics in addition to Z.Give me some time.Yes, Allen was in the navy and thats a plus on his being a suspect.Ron Hubbard made the "dangerous" man/animal statement at least twice in Dianetics.

By Howard (dialup-63.209.93.2.losangeles1.level3.net - 63.209.93.2) on Tuesday, September 26, 2000 - 02:19 am:

Glen- I have reproduced an envelope marked "personal attention("1971)sent by a Manson member, Sue Bartell,to A.LaVey in my book. The Family had ties to La Veys satanic church headquartered in S.F.Manson believed he was the devil (hence his interest in LaVeys church)as well as christ!The old black church was near where Stine was hit.You can get info off the net and your larger libraries have info on LaVey. I believe L wrote a book on his life;he died not that long ago after a lingering illness.One of the interps' I have played with on the terminal of the first cipher is: "or be with me in the pit", of course I see this as Mansons teaching that the Family would go to the "pit" or "paradise" as M called it and that as Tex Watson said in his book "people" would be waiting for the Family in the afterlife in the pit or paradise. Of course, all of the cipher stuff is just speculatory. One woman wrote the VPD and thought that last portion of the cipher said:"this is the tip Robert E. Lee ".Now again, since my two guys Manson and Davis were southern and thought highly of Lee and that they were trying to "program" people for the Revolution using military themes the civil war hero Lee was a possible-far out, yes, as was Manson!My book delves into all of this at length. Zodiac expert Dave Peterson worked with me on this theme."Robert Emmett the hippi" is a possible based on M/Ds mindset on all things Irish-Emmett was an ,as you know,Irish revolutionary.Check out the Ned Kelly (Irish)web sites -very interesting as one of the possibles. for Zs choice of a costume.Of interest is Manson saying we have to "program" the 'hippies to fight in the upcoming War as they are too soft',etc.Emmetts statue is in Golden Gate park and the hippies used to hang out near this statue in the 60s.Forget my crazy stuff just thought the other info could help on the code.

By Anonymous (spider-ti013.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.194.178) on Tuesday, September 26, 2000 - 04:59 pm:

Howard, all the stuff you just said was very fascinating! I'm curious...why was Davis "unfit' for military service?

Speaking of Larry Melton, did you notice that his handwriting is eeriely similar to the Zodiac's handwriting? With his penchant for mispelling? (To readers not aware of Melton, his handwriting can be found under the heading White Rabbit in mansonmurders.com) Nelson describes Melton as a "depressive." Maybe Melton was coerced, manipulated or brainwashed into writing the Zodiac letters? Just speculating...

Regarding the connection to LaVey's Church of Satan, readers should know that Susan Atkins performed in LaVey's Satanic rituals a few times, some time before she met Manson. I think if I recall correctly, she performed as a vampire upon LaVey's request. During the ritual she would lay down in a coffin and come up on cue. She said in her autobiography that she was on LSD one time when she performed in the ritual.

By Glen (dialup-209.245.230.13.dallas1.level3.net - 209.245.230.13) on Tuesday, September 26, 2000 - 07:13 pm:

Howard wrote:

Glen- I have reproduced an envelope marked "personal attention("1971)sent by a Manson member, Sue Bartell,to A.LaVey in my book. The Family had ties to La Veys satanic church headquartered in S.F.Manson believed he was the devil (hence his interest in LaVeys church)as well as christ!The old black church was near where Stine was hit.You can get info off the net and your larger libraries have info on LaVey. I believe L wrote a book on his life;he died not that long ago after a lingering illness.One of the interps' I have played with on the terminal of the first cipher is: "or be with me in the pit", of course I see this as Mansons teaching that the Family would go to the "pit" or "paradise" as M called it and that as Tex Watson said in his book "people" would be waiting for the Family in the afterlife in the pit or paradise. Of course, all of the cipher stuff is just speculatory. One woman wrote the VPD and thought that last portion of the cipher said:"this is the tip Robert E. Lee ".Now again, since my two guys Manson and Davis were southern and thought highly of Lee and that they were trying to "program" people for the Revolution using military themes the civil war hero Lee was a possible-far out, yes, as was Manson!My book delves into all of this at length. Zodiac expert Dave Peterson worked with me on this theme."Robert Emmett the hippi" is a possible based on M/Ds mindset on all things Irish-Emmett was an ,as you know,Irish revolutionary.Check out the Ned Kelly (Irish)web sites -very interesting as one of the possibles. for Zs choice of a costume.Of interest is Manson saying we have to "program" the 'hippies to fight in the upcoming War as they are too soft',etc.Emmetts statue is in Golden Gate park and the hippies used to hang out near this statue in the 60s.Forget my crazy stuff just thought the other info could help on the code.

The most interesting parts of Z's letters to me refer to slaves and the gathering of slaves for the afterlife. I've always thought there was an indocrinational reasoning behind this, and the connection to Manson and his minions can't be ignored. You're doing good research by nailing down where Manson got his ideas. La Vey's teachings closely mimic Zodiac's diatribe, (or vice versa), and the prime suspect might well have had some contact with this teaching. I think La Vey deserves a section on this board with all the input we can get on his teaching and indoctrination procedures. Z's reasoning clearly strikes a cord of cultist thought.

As far as the cipher is concerned, the first time I ran the 18 characters in an alphabet shift sequence, I came up with the name "Lenny Lake". I'm aware of Leonard Lake's "work" and his suicide by cyanide, but just because I've found his name it does not mean he was Z. It only means that I hit on one of the 26 to the 25th power possibilities, about 400 million of which will reveal a true name of a living person. All cipher clues that seem valid must stand the rigorous scrutiny of the mathematics involved, unfortunately. Leonard would have been my choice, but hey, I'm into math, and it says that "Leo" was wishful thinking.

Somehow I missed the title of your book, Howard. What is it and where do I find it?

A thought - what does a cultist do with his life after he's defected? He's killed several people because of the belief and now he finds it to be a false belief. What does he do?

By Ed N. (spider-mtc-td043.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.104.168) on Tuesday, September 26, 2000 - 09:36 pm:

Glen, Howard wrote The Zodiac/Manson Connection in 1993. I listed it in Zodiac Publications. It's available through Amazon.com.

By Howard (Howard) (dialup-63.212.130.146.losangeles1.level3.net - 63.212.130.146) on Monday, October 16, 2000 - 01:15 am:

Anon 07- I finally found the Susan Aitkins interview! With tons of boxes of Z stuff and a disorganized researcher at the helm ,I was surprised it turned up so fast. Aitkins said that the "...victims were marked for death by Manson, who believed the killings WOULD RELEASE THE SOULS OF THE VICTIMS,WHO WOULD BECOME HIS SLAVES[in the after life]."Los Angeles Times 12/5/69 morning edition.I hope this helps ;its a Manson teaching. I would like to see other suspect advocates give similar witness accounts. If my guy is so poor in the Z ratings why do I have this kind of proof?Can they come as close to this teaching-that is ,a witness that heard their guy advocating this bizzare teaching.I say this repectfully, knowing this is an unsolved,but I speak in a sportsman like manner. Manson told me in a letter that he"... and Bruce [Davis] started the REBORN(my emp.) movement in 1967". Z said that he would"... be reborn in paradice (sic)". Manson spoke constantly of "paradise" and that they would have "people waiting for them when they got there". M spoke of his followers as his "slaves".Remember Davis and Manson were "one" and that Davis was second in command and he and M started the "reborn" movement. Z said he "started his collection of slaves" on 12/20/68 and that, in his mind ,was "christmas"-Z would approximate. I"burned their car where I found them" even though he moved the car to Byrd rd.(girls called birds in England at the time- just a for nuts statement-Zs 12/10/69 paste up speaks of" birds flying south ";M believed they had to appeal to the "young love"/birds to go south to join the Family from S.F.!).There are other examples of Zs approximations-beware radian /magnetic north debaters!

By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-tq082.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.201.82) on Monday, October 16, 2000 - 02:45 pm:

Howard: as I remarked to Glen not so long ago, every time you mention something new, I have to continually revise my opinion of Bruce Davis as a Z-suspect. I had never really considered him viable, especially after Harry Martin's pathetic hatchet-job "attempt" at solving the Z crimes (remember, he blamed everyone and their grandma for being involved somehow). You have raised several valid points that makes (for me, anyway) Bruce Davis a far more likely suspect than Larry Kane, Mike O'Hare or Peter O, for instance.

For me, the jury's still out regarding whether Johns' abductor was actually Z or not; that he almost certainly strongly resembled the composite, I do not doubt. I am not so sure either that whoever abducted her actually moved her car to Bird Road; I think that's where she originally stopped when her abductor offered to "fix" her wheel. Later on, when attempting to reconstruct events, I suspect that she confused some of the events and thought she had stopped by the Arco station at Chrisman Road a couple of miles to the west. Since she was driving west along 132 to begin with, if they continued driving that way, the Arco is the very first anything they would have passed. Since they apparently drove through Tracy, it's possible that the abductor took I-580 by the Arco, then I-205 to Tracy, and back south again to where she escaped near Patterson. In any case, it would have been an easy drive north along I-5 back to Bird Road, and he would not therefore have had to put the tire back on her car and drive it more than two miles east from Chrisman Road to Bird Road to torch it. If her abductor was Z, then his usual MO was to swiftly attack and then leave the scene immediately. The logistics and time involved and the risk of discovery I think would have been too great, unless the car was already there for him to stop for a moment and set it on fire.

By Glen Claston (Glenclaston) (dialup-209.245.234.168.dallas1.level3.net - 209.245.234.168) on Tuesday, October 17, 2000 - 10:36 pm:

Ed, I'm glad to see that you at least are rethinking the suspect list. My apologies to Howard for not having read or evaluated his book, but my excuse is that I am relatively new to the case and speculation serves no purpose in cipher.

Ed, if you are open as I am to new information, (new for me first time), then my "esoteric religious belief" thread may have finally paid off. Howard, I'll be honest and say that I'm not going to buy or read your book because it is an edited work designed to sell copies. My interest is only in true hard-core research. You want to send me a free copy that's your business, but I've learned enough about this case not to want to bias myself too strongly in favor of one candidate. (Like I ever got a free copy of anything.)

Given the information you've provided previously, I can honestly say that it's the strongest I've seen in connection with Z's expressed religious beliefs. I'd like you to start a new heading in this vein, and in that heading I'm going to ask for extreme supportable detail, no matter what you wrote in your book. I think this evidence is important enough to go beyond your assumptions and into the supportable fact realm of investigation. It may feel like I've just landed a house on you with this request, but truly I've set a skyscraper on your shoulders. DON'T DROP IT. You may indeed hold the clues necessary to eliminate a miriad of suspects, and while I don't share your belief that it was a Manson family member, the teachings are sililoquous to the Zodiac and possibly definably sourced.

As evidence goes, yours has been the most ignored and possibly the most important. Continue. Continue.

By Howard (Howard) (dialup-64.156.158.198.losangeles1.level3.net - 64.156.158.198) on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 01:47 am:

When Zodiac sent the bloody piece of cloth from Paul Stines' shirt one assumes that he simply got tired of speculation as to what was or was not a true Zodiac missive.So he will now 'authenticate' each letter!Z could have sent Stines' key/s/wallet/cards,etc.,but didn't;kind of a mystery-I know the ol' "souvenir" thing ;Manson told a member to get the victims' "wallet and plant it in a area where it will be discovered in a black area ,so blacks" would be blamed for the crime!Dave Peterson pointed out that Z could also have been influenced by witchcraft teachings which called for sending one's perceived enemies a torn bloody cloth-Z did not cut the cloth ,but took the hard road ,and carefully-like the 66'teletype paper,which RPD thought 'odd'-tore it off the main body of the shirt. He also brought out that a witch tool was the "...athame double -bladed knife and the ligatures for binding.".Z is wearing all black with hood and crossed circle(the circle was very important to the Druids) and his 'athame' which looked 'home made' with 'tapped handle' in a WOODEN sheath/witness Z at LB(9/27/69) the first day of the Jewish holiday of Tabernacles and autumnal Equinox/not a credit reporting agency!or witches' sabbit on a full moon),the name Zodiac;the 13 "evil eyes" in the 10/27/70 card;Lass abducted on a holiday and a Druid moon 9/6/70 ;the Manson's, like Davis ,were interested in witchcraft and the modern Druid cults both in England and here; Manson called his girls "witches" and would say do something "witchy" at the murder scene ; (Davis "travelled with some witches when he was in Manchester"!)the Druids thought highly of the Oak tree-were the trees Z was hiding behind at LB Oaks-I think so? Ed N.yea?; note the 13(the occult #)"evil eyes" in the 10/27/70/HALLOWEEN card were set in a tree;the "hidden magic amulet" on the pasteup of 12/10/69 from a astro'magazine;the upside down sentence on the bloody cross (occult sign)10,/5/70 postcard pasteup becomes an "amulet" when it's turned upside down;a symbol has power to protect the wearer/bearer-witness Zs cross/circle-Manson said "your symbol is your power."There are many other things that point to the fact, as I believe,Zodiac was into the occult-I mean, "reborn in paradise" and torturing "slaves" in the "afterlife"(same teaching as Manson!)! It's very important to study the occult for Z background material-both Peterson and myself did ,and a lot of Zs activities make more sense-I use "sense" as a figure of speech!Of interest, Zs connection to the Bate's 87' was not to come out until about a month later in Nov.,yet, for the first time Z sends a Halloween card on the fourth(4 again!)anniversary(Z observed anniversaries as to letter/murder dates-occultism as did Manson; one ex.-he cut his album on 8/9/68 and it was rejected so on 8/9/69 a year later he kills);of Bates' murder;which was on a full moon ON Halloween/66' Eve)of Bate's death.I hate to say it but, around 10:30 pm,was perfect for the killing from an astro' aspect,if it was being used for evil purposes;this according to my astrology expert-the same for the 6:30 pm attack time at LB,which for the first time Z wrote a TIME for a strike.It's like Z was dragging it out till around 6:30-the same time Z called the Palo Alto Times 10/20/69, at 6:30 pm.

By Howard (Howard) (dialup-209.245.74.59.losangeles1.level3.net - 209.245.74.59) on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 01:59 am:

Glen-I found another letter in my files from Nancy Grant(Sue Bartell's name is crossed out,she was the author of that other envelope that was sent to La Vey) a Manson follower.The return address says"c/o Manson ,General Delivery, Los Angeles 90053. The address is:Personal Attention: Anton La Vey, Church of Satan,6114 California St.(the same st. Stine took to get to W/C st.!)San Francisco,California 94121 The letter has a L.A. postmark dated November 27, 1971.This is my second post of a communication from a Family member and Manson(note c/o)to the late Anton La Vey the Satanist.Sure would seem to show some kind of interest in Anton and his "church"!The proximity of the Stine kill site and the La Vey house on California st.is of interest.One could crash there for the night and this would be especially handy if one killed someone in the area and needed a place to hide for a night!Hmmm FYI

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wb073.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.192.183) on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 07:02 am:

Oh, come on, Howard: LaVey (Howard Stanton Levey) was a lot of things, but he was far too high-profile to be meddling with Mansonoids, besides all of which he held them in total contempt. Anybody can mail a letter. Obviously that letter didn't get to LaVey, or you wouldn't have it. The worst thing that can be said about the Church Of Satan is that it was totally bogus.

By Oscar (Oscar) (pool0296.cvx37-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net - 216.244.25.41) on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 09:44 pm:

AlanC,
Oh, you clever wag! "The WORST thing that can be said about the Church of Satan is that it was totally bogus." The worst? Do you have horns growing out of your forehead?
Oscar

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-ta054.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.205.69) on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 09:47 pm:

I think I know a little bit more about LaVey than you do, Oscar.

Those aren't horns: they're antennae.

By Oscar (Oscar) (pool0507.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net - 209.178.189.252) on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 08:47 pm:

AlanC,
Never in dispute. I acknowledge that you are the absolute master of the esoteric and, ultimately, rather mundane.
Smiles,
Oscar

By Edward (Edward) (adsl-63-205-196-90.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net - 63.205.196.90) on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 09:15 pm:

Oscar,

Tread lightly. Alan is many things, least of which "mundane."

By Howard (Howard) (dialup-63.212.134.32.losangeles1.level3.net - 63.212.134.32) on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 01:36 am:

Alanc-I have a xerox of the letter I posted. The envelope has a cancelled stamp and a L.A. post mark of 27 Nov 1971 AM 114.I would be most happy to send you a copy ;all I need is your PO.You may wish to have it verified.I will give you info on how I got a copy later. I will call the researcher Weds. to get permission. I have never tried to make the Church of Satan into a bastion of proof for Zodiac's murderous career. What you said about La Vey is correct,and that goes for his Church.I am only saying that Manson and some of his followers like, Sue Bartell and Nancey Pitman,etc., were sending letters to La Vey as they had an interest in witchcraft, and they wrote to Anton.Actually, my post was to Glen, as he was interested in Zs religious background and we exchanged posts on this.After years of research, I selected a suspect ,that I feel had some connection to the Zodiac scenario.I think that research into his beliefs would be of importance ,especially, since I and Dave Peterson saw that Z had an occult background and an interest in the Church of Satan would lend some credence to our opinion. This is our line of research-not someone else's, and we have our own reasons to pursue this or any line of info.I am glad that you expressed disagreement- that will cause others to rethink their views and possibly conclude that it is a faulty line of inquiry on our part-we need these contrasts and challenges ,not blind acceptance.I do feel that a professional will act -not out of emotion- but in a civil manner .The "ah come on's" are too "college"(maybe high school too!)-I have been in enough college debates and it sounds like a freshman in his/her first debate.Disagree without being disagreeable. There are too many snippy ,nasty Americans and it's getting worse. I prefer to be respectful.Nothing I have said was meant to be disrespectful I am saying let's -all of us -stick to facts/opinions/ideas and do it professionally ,(we can have some fun too!)even if we do not agree in the slightest.You seem highly intelligent and no doubt have a lot to offer on the case both now and in the past-great!

By Gomper (Gomper) (slip-32-103-46-25.al.us.prserv.net - 32.103.46.25) on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 02:49 am:

Howard(and let me preface this by saying that I'm not being facetious), you are the classiest person on this board. Your manners are much appreciated.

Gomper

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-tm071.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.197.76) on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 07:51 am:

Sorry, Howard. You're right, and I do think your theory is interesting and worthy of examination, and you are consistently polite. I shouldn't have been so snide with you.

By Edward (Edward) (adsl-63-204-75-234.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net - 63.204.75.234) on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 09:00 am:

Howard,

Nice reply. We would all do well to be so civil.


Oscar,

I've never been in a jacuzzi with Alan. But I'm familiar with his work. I was merely pointing out that he's dangerous, even at great distances. Look what he did to Penn. And that was someone he only wanted to have a little fun with. Incurring his wrath is something you don't want, believe me. Think of it as spiting in the wind.

By Howard (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 64.30.209.40) on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 11:41 am:

Alanc-No prob'-I will be looking forward,as before ,to your posts,I need to learn all I can from you guys. I need to be called out when I make a post-it causes me to reevaluate that premise and I will either drop it -I have no pride of opinion-or modify it based on fact, or lay it aside until further info arrives-if ever! I am not a wimp-I guess I would prefer just a straight fact refutation(yeah- a little blast is kool) minus any ,well, you know ,American sarcasum.We can 'enjoy' this case ,if you know what I mean(we need some reward !)and exchange info ,ideas ,refutations in a relaxed, but intellectual (and you are intellectual-poor Penn!)way. I don't mind my theories being made fun of, I get a good laugh over it -I would probably have fun with my stuff too! This is how that TIP followed out -I wish it was more sedate-having to delve into Manson/The Family and other areas is something, as a researcher, I would have preferred not to have ventured into.The envelopes addressed came from a researcher that deals with the owner of an occult book store in L.A. and that guy knows La Vey's daughter and husband(they did not like my book!). It was they who gave the envelopes to the owner and my guy traded for those and other papers. We have done many trades ,as this owner of the occult shop has a lot of Manson stuff due to his connections. The two envelopes were found among Anton's papers either just before his death or just after. Zoward

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wj013.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.198.23) on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 01:31 pm:

That makes sense. Nick & Zeena are friends of mine, I can understand why Nick might have some issues with your theory. You should be wary of that "White Rabbit" character, he's very hinky and has a reputation as a bad source.

Have you seen Nick's Manson video, CHARLES MANSON SUPERSTAR? It's pretty interesting.

By Howard (Howard) (dialup-63.209.88.157.losangeles1.level3.net - 63.209.88.157) on Saturday, February 03, 2001 - 02:07 pm:

Alanc-No, I have not seen the video you mentioned.I have seen/read tons of photos,videos,stacks of Manson letters,and books on the subject,etc.I have tried to learn all I can on the two sujects at hand.I know all about "sources" and we have checked out info that is given to us very carefuly.I have have researched now about 41 years and I know how people can be! I have some excellent detectives, and others, to cross check info.Thanks for the advice though-it's crazy out there!I don't know N/Z ,but I understand that they are o.k. people.I know some people that know them.I will have to get Nick's video.I have his The Manson File before me and it has a lot of interesting stuff.Thanx.

By Esau (Esau) (cc129455-a.rcrdva1.ca.home.com - 24.176.178.187) on Saturday, February 03, 2001 - 02:21 pm:

Howard, email me and I'll send you a copy of "Charles Manson Superstar". It's worth watching.

By Zoe Glass (Zoe_Glass) (max2-45.evansinet.com - 63.69.48.45) on Friday, March 23, 2001 - 04:27 pm:

the mention of cyprus in an above post brings to mind many things . cyprus is mentioned in the bible and mapped with longitude and latitude markers. noticed acts 21:16. ?

the itailian folk tale of cyprio

and an old comic book companion : jr detective
series cyprians magic math codes.....Zoe

By MDB (Michael_D_Brown) (micro52.lib3.hawaii.edu - 128.171.57.52) on Sunday, March 25, 2001 - 02:35 pm:

Glen, There are several references to "Paradise" mentioned here--> http://www.urantia.org/papers/paper120.html
Also near the end is a sentence containing the phrase "...of the Paradise Sons."
Your insight would be appreciated.

By Oscar (Oscar) (pool0017.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net - 209.178.188.17) on Monday, March 26, 2001 - 02:59 am:

MDB,

I do not know if anyone has mentioned this before, but there is a Paradise Road as one is leaving Frisco en route to Vallejo. Nobody has every made mention of this as far as I know, but when I say the sign I just shuddered. It could be nothing more than zynchronicity.
Oscar Levant

By Terri H (Terri) (dhcp065-024-048-076.columbus.rr.com - 65.24.48.76) on Tuesday, March 27, 2001 - 06:10 am:

"Paradice Slave" is also an IBM (I believe) term/program (inside)- maybe it just originated from this notorious case. Or maybe...something else. Oh, and it is actually spelled diCe.

By Zoe Glass (Zoe_Glass) (max2-39.evansinet.com - 63.69.48.39) on Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 12:59 pm:

terri, nice observation. it might be interesting to apply the same terminology application to the drawings.