Zodiac and the KKK
Zodiackiller.com Message Board: General Zodiac Discussion: Zodiac and the KKK
|By Maxson (Maxson) (nas-147-101.chicago-n.navipath.net - 184.108.40.206) on Thursday, January 18, 2001 - 03:57 pm:|
I was recently watching a documentary on the KKK and their "Grand Dragon" was talking about something or another. What I noticed was the shirt his was wearing. It was obviously a KKK shirt and it had a circle with a superimposed cross much like Zodiac's. I found it interesting how many times that symbol showed up in footage of their rallies. The other thing that struck my interest is while watching the same show, I saw the headwear they had on, it looked very much like what Z wore at Lake B. I did some more research on this, hopeing to find something that looked more like Z's costume. Well, I came across artwork of KKK members from the time of the Reconstruction, they looked equally similar to Zodiac's costume. Anyone have any more on this?
|By Oscar (Oscar) (pool0045.cvx26-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net - 220.127.116.11) on Thursday, January 18, 2001 - 05:42 pm:|
Yeah, sure. Zodiac wore a KKK outfit at LB, which is why he was able to 'blend' into the countryside so well. San Francisco and area was known for its rampant racial intolerance throughtout the turbulent sixties. In fact, Zodiac left a burning cross on Ferrin's front lawn, but the Vallejo police screwed the pooch on that one when the local captain took it home and used it for firewood (darn!). Paul Stine was a freedom rider.Therefore, he was targeted for death by an ultra-elite KKK hit squad run by Z, who just happened to need a cab that night after failing to find a solo Black Panther to lynch.
Come on! Get your head out of the glue-bag!
p.s. Penn in 2004. Ride the scud!
|By Maxson (Maxson) (ip-20-149-156.chicago-n.navipath.net - 18.104.22.168) on Thursday, January 18, 2001 - 07:40 pm:|
Haha. Just for that, I'm not voting for Penn. Ever!
|By Howard (Howard) (dialup-22.214.171.124.losangeles1.level3.net - 126.96.36.199) on Friday, January 19, 2001 - 02:26 am:|
Maxon-In spite of what our dear friend
Oscar has posted(I'm still smiling!)you are right. I have articles of white supremist/neo Nazi's groups and they ,many times, have that cross/extended with circle;it looks like Zs to a T ,or should I say Z!Several years ago I saw a Neo N group marching down a street and their flag had the cross/ circle on it.I have posted my views on this and Manson's fascination with these groups(and Hitler-I fully expected,when I first saw the Z letter list to see one post marked April 20th ,Hitler's B-day,and I wasn't disappointed;this included my suspect's B-day and again ,I saw the Oct.5 postcard!) and the possible Z connection.When Manson was instructing Tex Watson on how to kill he told W "...to take some rope and hang somebody,like a reverse of the Ku Klux Klan thing;that way it will put heat on the blackies."Manson said "your symbol is your power".The hood of the KKK today is different than Zs, but in times past ,you are right, they look more like Zs deal.Both Davis and Manson are southerners.I like the possibility that Z may have also been inspired by the Irish rebel Ned Kelly's hood/gun,and his writing to the police and chalengling them,etc. Info and pictures can be seen at various sites. Click my fav' search engine Direct Hit and look up Kelly -you should be amazed.M/D loved all things Irish.
|By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wb084.proxy.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Friday, January 19, 2001 - 11:11 am:|
It's called a "Celtic cross."
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p152.as1.virginia1.eircom.net - 184.108.40.206) on Friday, January 19, 2001 - 11:39 am:|
Anybody think the LB disguise looks like a Knight's or cruisaders "get up"?
|By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (ac8a8470.ipt.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Friday, January 19, 2001 - 12:03 pm:|
I don't think anybody here at the message board ever saw Zodiac's costume.
|By Jake Wark (Jake) (spider-wd033.proxy.aol.com - 18.104.22.168) on Friday, January 19, 2001 - 02:52 pm:|
"The other thing that struck my interest is while watching the same show, I saw the headwear they had on, it looked very much like what Z wore at Lake B."
I've never, ever seen a hood like the one Z wore at Berryessa -- it's often referred to as an executioner's hood, but the popular image of such a hood is pointy, not squared off. Is this klan hood you're talking about square, or was it just a hood?
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."
|By Hurley (Hurley) (spider-tf052.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Friday, January 19, 2001 - 04:50 pm:|
I don't know what they looked like in the late 60's but the LB hood looks similar to what I know to be that of a naval fireman. I've seen those before and goodness, I just remembered my brother's GI Joe had a similar hood! hm, I think that was part of a fireman's outfit..I bet he wore wing walkers too!
|By Maxson (Maxson) (nas-147-133.chicago-n.navipath.net - 126.96.36.199) on Friday, January 19, 2001 - 11:13 pm:|
You're right, the classic KKK hoods were pointy but the ones in the TLC documentary I saw were squared off like Graysmith's drawing of Zodiac's LB costume based on the Hartnell interview. So I guess that is as close as anyone on the board will come to seeing it.
|By Howard (Howard) (dialup-188.8.131.52.losangeles1.level3.net - 184.108.40.206) on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 03:50 pm:|
On a KKK brochure I have there is a circle and cross inside,but the bars do not extend beyond the circle.
|By Esau (Esau) (cc129455-a.rcrdva1.ca.home.com - 220.127.116.11) on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 04:03 pm:|
Howard, don't join them. Throw the brochure away. Just kidding. Please email me so I can buy your book and get your address to send that video to you.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-30.linkline.com - 18.104.22.168) on Thursday, November 01, 2001 - 01:33 am:|
Tonight on the Discovery Channel they had a special on the KKK.During one of the
interviews a KKK member had on a shirt with a Zodiac like circle/cross with cross bars
extending beyond the circle-it was white.
This is the first time I have seen this symbol depicted in this fashion other than their standard cross within the circlewhich only approximates Zodiacs.I have seen neo Nazis on TV marching and some of their flags and clothing had a replication of the Zodiac circle.I have a news article showing a white supremist group in WA and on the wall was a Zodiac cross/circle look alike.
I think the young Zodiac was also influenced by these kinds of groups or actually their symbols as he was deeply symbol or sign oriented and possibly read their litrature.The robe(sometimes black) and especially their KKK hood is suggestive along with other possible influences over the years.FYI
|By EviI (Evii) (spider-wo021.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Thursday, November 01, 2001 - 06:59 pm:|
I'm inclined to agree, Howard. I've been vocal before about my belief that Z was involved w a cult. It's worth noting that some of the wierd occult groups that were to be found on the west coast in the late 60's were also white supremicists, most notably the Manson Family & the Process Church.
|By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-17-103.bos.east.verizon.net - 126.96.36.199) on Friday, November 02, 2001 - 07:09 am:|
Would you guys please check a dictionary? Preferably the OED. "Cult" and
"occult" are not related in definition or etymology. "Occult" is not
the adjective form of "cult". The neo-Nazis are a cult but not occult. Astrology
is occult but not a cult. Whether Z was into the occult sheds no light whatever on whether
he was in a cult. Please stop confusing the two, as it confuses simple folk like me, not
to mention the discussion.
|By Oddball (Oddball) (slip-32-103-46-200.al.us.prserv.net - 188.8.131.52) on Friday, November 02, 2001 - 10:56 am:|
Peter, would you please stop being such a snot? As incorrect as it may be, as much as
it may send you into convulsions of pants-soiling terror, I believe that most of we
"simple folk" understand what is being said here when "cult" and
"occult" are used interchangeably. No, they're not the same thing, but we're on
a message board, for god's sake. This isn't a composition class.
How about if we all finally admitted what morons we were and acknowledged your inherent rightness? Would that make you happy? I can't believe you have nothing better to do than to come in here and nitpick over every word in somebody's post.
|By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-21-115.bos.east.verizon.net - 184.108.40.206) on Friday, November 02, 2001 - 12:53 pm:|
Who's in the pants-soiling fit? You aren't even on this thread. If you understand what is being said when two unrelated words are used interchangeably, then I salute you. You obviously understand more about the bebbole at large in California than I. And you are a lot less bothered about a harmless occult practice like astrology being lumped in with a cult like the Nazis than I.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 220.127.116.11) on Friday, November 02, 2001 - 01:10 pm:|
Hear Odd'- as cult and what it or they possibly espouse (occult TEACHINGS)are two different things is well understood by we posters.
A group or cult can be labeled occultists-it's so stated in many articles written by professional journalists with an implied understanding the two are separate and distinct.I knew and worked with the late cult authority Dr.Walter Martin and he had developed a set of indicators as to what constitutes a cult and just what subjects are considered occultic.The way it used on the Board falls within an acceptable range of common usage-let your professional background rest.The Z case will survive -we are a cult-occult-cult! BW
|By Jake (Jake) (spider-mtc-tc022.proxy.aol.com - 18.104.22.168) on Friday, November 02, 2001 - 01:31 pm:|
Humpty Dumpty said:
"When I say a word, it means what I want it to mean."
If Gareth Penn says that Z used a .38 at Presidio Heights, it is not the same as saying that Z used a 9mm, even though they are both handguns and could be confused by a layman.
Neither standard English nor its composition are snotty or necessarily professional: they're the means by which we communicate with each other, and if they're too much to handle then one is bound to be taken less seriously, whether the context is a classroom or a message board.
|By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-21-115.bos.east.verizon.net - 22.214.171.124) on Friday, November 02, 2001 - 02:22 pm:|
A candle in the darkness! A bell amidst the clamor!
A cult may be accurately labeled occultist if it is of the occult. But that is by virtue of the occult nature of its beliefs or practices, not by merely being a cult. The cult of Miss Cleo is certainly occultist. The cult of the KKK is just as certainly not.
|By Oddball (Oddball) (slip-32-103-46-248.al.us.prserv.net - 126.96.36.199) on Friday, November 02, 2001 - 03:20 pm:|
Peter: No, I am not on this particular thread--nor were you until your arrogant post
this morning--but I have commented on the Z/occult topic elsewhere on the board, many
times. And, for the record, I don't think that you're confused. What you are is
unnecessarily belligerent; you can't go five minutes without some snide comment.
To clear up any confusion that MIGHT exist, however: We're talking about whether or not Zodiac might have been part of an occult group whose activities included murder. When Howard posts something about Z's possible interest in astrology, he isn't saying that all astrologists are satanists and murderers. It's ridiculous to imply that he is.
If you don't like the way we're using the language, you can comment on it without resorting to insults. Jake managed to--Why can't you?
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-34.linkline.com - 188.8.131.52) on Saturday, November 03, 2001 - 03:03 am:|
We are back to square one at LB and now with quotes from Humpty Dumpty(not a real
person) thrown in for good measure!Now everyone understand that I mean that LB is a
location and square one is a simple figure of speech.
Odd':both of their comments whether 'civil' or 'snide' are unnecessary picky East coaster verbage.Let's go on to a real discussion as language and our Eastern intelligentsia permit.
|By Oddball (Oddball) (slip-32-103-46-216.al.us.prserv.net - 184.108.40.206) on Saturday, November 03, 2001 - 09:22 am:|
I'm all for getting back to the discussion, and putting the hubbub behind us!
|By Peter H (Peter_H) (dialup-220.127.116.11.dial1.boston1.level3.net - 18.104.22.168) on Saturday, November 03, 2001 - 03:35 pm:|
Actually, we're talking about a possible connection between the Z's sign and the klan cross. At least that was where the thread was until Evii tied in "weird occult groups", the Family and Process. Probably should have directed my comment toward him alone, but the serious point was very much like Jake's: blurring distinctions among things like the Klan and the Nazis on the one hand (where this thread started) and occultist groups on the other does not advance the discussion or the inquiry. It confuses the discussion just as much as calling a .38 a 9mm. Just the knd of confusion I imagine Z reveling in: "I know, I'll use a bunch of symbology from different sources and see what they make of it. I'll turn 'em into a bunch of bookworms trying to make sense of it". Let's not take the bait.
|By Oddball (Oddball) (slip-32-103-46-13.al.us.prserv.net - 22.214.171.124) on Saturday, November 03, 2001 - 08:44 pm:|
I was addressing the "cult versus occult" point that you brought up, hence the deviation from the strict subject of this thread. However, the Nazi Party had roots in mystical teachings. One of Hitler's mentors, Guido von List, was the leader of an occult group in Vienna; and I think that the swastika was chosen as the Nazi emblem precisely because it was a symbol that had, historically, always been associated with mysticism. The Klan, too, is at least pseudo-mystical with its "Grand Dragon" ceremonial BS.
All of this is not to equate modern-day occult groups with Nazis or the KKK...but in SOME cases there are similarities, as far as symbology and apocalyptic belief systems are concerned.
|By Roger Redding (Roger_Redding) (user-33qs151.dialup.mindspring.com - 126.96.36.199) on Saturday, November 03, 2001 - 09:02 pm:|
Humpty Dumpty said:
"When I say a word, it means what I want it to mean."
Actually, it was the Queen of Hearts. (Not a real person either, except to Dave Edmunds).
The Cross-Circle symbol is the insignia for the white supremecist organization Stormfront.
( http://www.stormfront.org )
Feeding my head,
|By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 188.8.131.52) on Saturday, November 03, 2001 - 11:09 pm:|
The cross-circle symbol was also on the uniforms of the men in the movie Pearl Harbor, on the left shoulder. I would like to know what it stood for.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-118.linkline.com - 184.108.40.206) on Sunday, November 04, 2001 - 02:00 am:|
I guess it is really Jake that needs to delineate and differentiate between his story book characters and who said what('So that when Jake says a word,it means what he wants it to mean'-revised and updated 2001 ;All rights reserved C.J.Wark),just like we are to do with 9mms and .38's (ala Garth Penn).We will do our part with cult and occult.
ODD',Do you think we can follow Peter and Jakes orders without screwing up?Screw -a fastener -screw up a figure of speech-got it!
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-118.linkline.com - 220.127.116.11) on Sunday, November 04, 2001 - 02:04 am:|
Thanks for pointing out the site. I have been saying this for some time now.Who had a swastika on their foreheads-and were influenced by these groups?BD and CM.
|By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ntc-ta042.proxy.aol.com - 18.104.22.168) on Sunday, November 04, 2001 - 07:18 am:|
There is an enormous cross-circle outside my local 7th day Adventist church, which as we have already noted, Hartnell and Sheperd were devout followers of.
|By Oddball (Oddball) (slip-32-103-46-177.al.us.prserv.net - 22.214.171.124) on Sunday, November 04, 2001 - 02:15 pm:|
Yep, Howard, I think we can manage it!
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 126.96.36.199) on Wednesday, November 07, 2001 - 02:37 pm:|
The Zodiac 4/28/70"Dragon" card with two men-the 'lesser' man on a burro,
suggesting the desert or wilderness area;the more 'elevated' man on the large Dragon-with
even a taller hat,beard and is older than the lesser man.This is the first time I really
noted that-compare the two.Both are 'prospectors though.
This is of interest when one considers the Grand Dragon in the KKK and that cross/circle symbol and black hood(as we know some do wear white hoods).
Just a thought ,because when eclectic proclivities are demonstrated -like in Z's case-there are always options to consider,if indeed,we must contemplate them at all.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 188.8.131.52) on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 02:41 pm:|
Some didn't agree that Zodiac possibly took his circle/cross symbol from white supremist litrature.Please enter(Yahoo search engine) splcenter.org;then click "hate symbols" in the search box and click to page two Center Information.There are some very interesting symbols there.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 184.108.40.206) on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 07:19 pm:|
I found that the Celtic cross/circle was first used by the National Front in ENGLAND in 1967.There were clashes with groups and police in 1969.The symbol was adopted by white supremacist organizations.
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (acc344a0.ipt.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 12:03 am:|
Celtic crossed circle? Didn't (some of) the Celts live in England?
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-82.linkline.com - 18.104.22.168) on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 01:22 am:|
Yes,and Scotland,Ireland,Wales and other parts of Europe too.I hope you checked the site and the "hate symbols" it displays.
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (acc3b35a.ipt.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 01:39 am:|
Actually, Howard, I was thinking along the lines of that being another English connection.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 126.96.36.199) on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 01:36 pm:|
It is and there are lots more!
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 188.8.131.52) on Monday, March 11, 2002 - 12:07 pm:|
I got an email from B.Monson bringing to my attention that Idaho and MONTANA have been signifcant states for white power groups and activities.FYI
|By Tom Stout (Tom_Stout) (dialup-184.108.40.206.dial1.sanfrancisco1.level3.net - 220.127.116.11) on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 09:52 am:|
Hello from SF!
There is a report in the news this week that vandals spray painted white supremist graffiti on African American establishments here in Berkeley.
They included Zodiac's cross hair circle symbol.
I would think Z has no connection to any KKK group since all of his known victims were white.
|By Warren (Warren) (w205.z064002105.hou-tx.dsl.cnc.net - 18.104.22.168) on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 09:59 am:|
Having had unsought dealings with several Klan members, none could even remotely approach the level of intelligence of the most pathetic of the Z missives.
|By Roger Redding (Roger_Redding) (sdn-ap-008txhousp0140.dialsprint.net - 22.214.171.124) on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 11:13 am:|
The Celtic cross is also the symbol of the white supremacist group Stormfront (www.stormfront.org)
|By Spencer (Spencer) (acc37c79.ipt.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 08:27 am:|
I saw the symbol painted on a building in Belgium along with white supremacist
language this summer.
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (54.philadelphia01rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 188.8.131.52) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 10:10 am:|
Have any of the known Zodiac suspects used this type of symbolism?
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (host-66-81-194-182.rev.o1.com - 184.108.40.206) on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 12:01 am:|
Please see past posts on this subject.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (220.127.116.11.lcinet.net - 18.104.22.168) on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 12:03 am:|
Some comments.My guys connection to CM is my link of influence.
I met one of Mansons former guards.He told me that CM had a cross and circle symbol on the underside of his wrist.He saw it when he would cuff and uncuff him.He also said he saw the same symbol on his cell wall-in chalk, he thinks.
There were many occult books in his cell.He wanted the guards birth time,etc.,so he could do an astrology chart,but the guard refused citing his Christian background.
CM would attempt to predict killings during the full moon in the yard.
He said that Manson was into codes and that he knew Morse code,etc.
He told me that he saw several letters from Vallejo,Benicia,San Francisco and other cities in the Bay area,and that CM mentioned he had friends in those cities going back several years.
Charlies old counselor at McNeil,in answer to my letter,wrote that CM was a member of the drama club,something I knew,and that they did the Mikado to his certain knowledge.FYI