Zodiac and SFPD

Zodiackiller.com Message Board: General Zodiac Discussion: Zodiac and SFPD

By Jake (Jake) (spider-wo051.proxy.aol.com - on Sunday, March 04, 2001 - 01:41 pm:

Is there a consensus of opinion on whether patrolmen Foukes and Zelms actually spoke with Z? I know Graysmith purports that the dialogue occured, but there's been some doubt thrown on that recently. I've never seen or heard an account from the cops in question that acknowledged speaking with him, but considering the embarrassment it would cause SFPD, that's not too surprising.

"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p67.as2.dungarvan1.eircom.net - on Sunday, March 04, 2001 - 02:16 pm:

Why the second photofit? It has been suggested that the witnesses to the Stine killing could not have got a detailed view.The cops in question report only seeing their suspect for a few seconds,yet,we have a fairly detailed photofit.Where did it come from?The LB photofit could be anyone,the "Stine one" looks "up close and personal"to me!

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - on Sunday, March 04, 2001 - 02:16 pm:

Jake, I was told that yes indeed they spoke to who they believe was z. That is why the change was made on the composite, I was told this in 1990, by the artist who drew the composite. Officer Foukes admitted to Harvey Hines, they felt that they had spoken to z that night. When Harvey showed Foukes Kanes picture, he said that Kane looked the most like the guy he saw that night, but that it had been too many years to make a positive ID. The Harvey Hines I know, and the one I have read about on this board, are very different.I liked him very much, and the work he is doing to close this case.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (ac83059e.ipt.aol.com - on Sunday, March 04, 2001 - 05:11 pm:

The teens weren't within 60 feet of Zodiac, yet their description produced a full-faced composite. Just because the officers' description produced a similarly sized composite doesn't mean they spoke to Zodiac.

By Esau (Esau) (proxy2-external.scrmnt1.ca.home.com - on Sunday, March 04, 2001 - 05:38 pm:

He seemed to be pretty upset that they denied having talked to him so I'm very suspicious. Then again I'm suspicious of all government agencies and politicians.

By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p98.as2.dungarvan1.eircom.net - on Sunday, March 04, 2001 - 07:15 pm:

The second composite seems to have developed a "lazy eye"as discussed elsewhere on the board, the lips and mouth have also been changed.For identification purposes,had the police had a suspect I do not think the second composite would have made a difference.Were the officers capable of being this observant in the time allowed?If,as suggested elsewhere on this board,that neither set of witnesses could have gotten such detail,and that these may have been the product of some "artistic License",what purpose does it serve?.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-12.linkline.com - on Monday, March 05, 2001 - 01:24 am:

We have posted on this subject before.Check them out.The librarian.

By Jake (Jake) (spider-wc053.proxy.aol.com - on Monday, March 05, 2001 - 12:31 pm:

I got a hot tip that Foukes and Zelms did, in fact, speak with Z, and that a concerted effort was made to keep this info from the public because of the tremendous embarrassment the whole incident would cause. The incorrect description of the suspect's race, and the fact that this suspect was subsequently spoken to by patrolmen, would have made the whole police force a laughingstock. Foukes' subsequent remarks can easily be attributed to a willingness to toe the SFPD line.

I wouldn't put too much faith in the second composite's ptosis, or any other dynamic interpretation of the difference between the two sketches. Foukes and Zelms apparently were never consulted by the artist, and their only contribution was to make the suspect look a little older.

"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (121.philadelphia08rh.16.pa.dial-access.att.net - on Monday, March 05, 2001 - 07:09 pm:

I, for one, would like to know where the artist got the idea for the heavier, stronger lower jaw on the second composite. It's a dead ringer, not only for Ted Kaczynski, but for the better-known Unabomber composite as well. That one, too, was a "second effort," in which the witness definitely recalled the strong lower jaw, and the original composite was amended.

By Hurley (Hurley) (spider-tf064.proxy.aol.com - on Monday, March 05, 2001 - 07:14 pm:

Ironically, the incorrect description of Z at the Stine crime scene probably saved the lives of those two police officers.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - on Monday, March 05, 2001 - 07:26 pm:

Regretfully,Eric Zelms died in the line of duty not too long after the Z incident.Jake's info is no surprise,but it's good that the truth is coming out. Now, to get those reports.Either composite looks like my guy-no prob'!Davis is described having a 'large face' (Mageau's description)and an "angular jaw" with a "saturnine look and tight lipped expression"... "short, but husky and muscular"and pock marked chin.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - on Monday, March 05, 2001 - 09:58 pm:

Howard, R.H. and Davis could pass for brothers. This is the R.H. that I saw with Kane. Kane has the strongest looking jaw line of all of the living suspects. But he has a angry look about him, not gloomy. He is also short, muscular,with the pock marked chin and jaw. I am not saying Davis isn't involved, I belive he could be part of the same group. So far we have three who have ties to England, Davis, Phillips, and who ever sent Pam a small coffin, with a tiny doll inside , that came from England.

By Jake (Jake) (spider-wg071.proxy.aol.com - on Tuesday, March 06, 2001 - 10:48 am:

Howard wrote:
"Now, to get those reports."

That sure would be something. Without them, this is all just hearsay. In terms of certainty, it's the researcher's obligation to prove that SFPD did meet Zodiac, since as we all know, it's pretty tough to prove a negative, ie, that Foukes and Zelms did not speak with him. Since Foukes has made statements to the contrary, this may actually be impossible.

Regardless, the fact that we haven't seen such a report does not mean that it doesn't exist -- only that no one's willing to share it. Considering government's propensity to avoid scandal (former presidents notwithstanding), we may be waiting a while.

"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."