Zodiac's Numbers: Coincidence?

Zodiackiller.com Message Board: General Zodiac Discussion: Zodiac's Numbers: Coincidence?

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (ac9956dd.ipt.aol.com - on Sunday, April 15, 2001 - 01:27 pm:

I think it's likely Zodiac used the Stine murder to draw attention to the yet-unconnected Cheri Jo Bates murder, as well as to set up his future Mt. Diablo references. Here is why:

*Stine murder scene at 3898 Washington (right next to Cherry Street)
*Presidio Heights address of Stine witnesses: 3899
*Washington and Maple address: 3799
*Bates murder address: between 3680 and 3692
*Mt. Diablo elevation: 3849

(Even Cheri Jo's home address is close: 4195)

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (201.philadelphia01rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - on Sunday, April 15, 2001 - 04:10 pm:

Also consider the unconfirmed (yet highly suspicious) "astrology" letter of December, 1969, with the notation "C HARRY OTT." The authorities interpreted this as "chariot," but "C HARRY" might also signify "CHERI."

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (ac9dad37.ipt.aol.com - on Sunday, April 15, 2001 - 04:18 pm:

I've never seen that letter, although Darlene was very close to a Vallejo man named Ott.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (201.philadelphia01rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - on Sunday, April 15, 2001 - 04:24 pm:

I've never seen it either. It was, however, included in the FBI reports.

By Classic (Classic) (spider-tq022.proxy.aol.com - on Sunday, April 15, 2001 - 11:27 pm:

Tom, any idea how many letters the authorities are holding back? Classic

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (ac981a8a.ipt.aol.com - on Monday, April 16, 2001 - 12:06 am:

None that I know of.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (spider-tf023.proxy.aol.com - on Thursday, June 07, 2001 - 02:01 am:

Allen's home in Burson during his Valley Springs teacher stint is another fit: 3404

By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p232.as1.clonmel1.eircom.net - on Saturday, October 13, 2001 - 03:43 pm:

Just taking the opening suggestion by Tom a little further....Could it be that Zodiac in going to unnecessary lengths to prove he was Stines killer,(bloodstained shirt)was in fact pointing to Riverside?.A detailed letter at Riverside was not enough!

By Jim (Jim) (216-102-73-34.scoe.org - on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 01:03 pm:

all of thses numbers being soooo close? either an incredible coincidence or Z had incredible patience, precision, and pains-taking patterns!!! all of those numbers being sooooo close...hmmmm...was he really that good?
what about other possibilities of numbers from within Z lore? so of the "info" he gave us? anything?

By Jake (Jake) (spider-wb082.proxy.aol.com - on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 03:41 pm:

Penn's book is just full of numbers to which he ascribes great significance: 38! 17! 29! Ooooh, don't get me started!


By Judy (Judy) (waf-dc31-57.rasserver.net - on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 03:59 pm:

Jim, I lean towards the theory that Ms Bates was
a Zodiac victim. I also (but not always) feel
ALA makes a very good candidate. The bottom of
the typed letter to the police after the Ms.
Bate's murder contains an odd symbol. To me, it
looks like the number - 32- which was the street
number ALA lived with his parents. (32 Fresno-
I believe is the street name.)


By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (189.philadelphia01rh.16.pa.dial-access.att.net - on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 04:41 pm:

No matter what one may think about the odd symbol on those Bates letters, the fact remains that it was indeed an abstract symbol, a classic Zodiac trademark. (For those who think it was only a badly-scrawled "Z," remember, it appeared on two of the letters in exactly the same manner.) Granted, the nature of the murder was entirely out of keeping with the Bay Area Zodiac events, but I can't help but wonder if perhaps there's an explanation for it. One thing to bear in mind is that the Bates murder might not have been planned as such. And here I hearken back to the case of the "kissing kidnapper," that Rusconi and I described in Dr. Zodiac. See http://home.att.net/~mignarda/kiss.pdf for a reproduction of the article as it appeared in the Riverside newspaper, just a week after the Typewritten Letter was received. Here we had an abductor who seemed to desire little more than to be in the same vehicle with a young woman. He evidently said nothing to her during the course of the drive, and when it was over made a feeble, half-hearted effort to get a kiss, fleeing when she balked. Consider, now, that if this perpetrator was the murderer of Cheri Bates, perhaps he didn't spend an hour talking to her near the library; perhaps he abducted her and forced her to drive him around, just as the Kissing Kidnapper did five weeks later. Following the abduction, perhaps he tried to force her into the dark alley, thinking to get a kiss, or something more. His only weapon was a small knife which he probably never intended to use. When she screamed and struggled, things began to escalate, and he ended up killing her, with great difficulty.

Given the extreme sexual dysfunction evidenced in those two scenarios, is it illogical to speculate that he simply gave up on abduction, preferring instead to wreak his vengeance on couples whom he thought were doing what he simply couldn't do under any circumstances?

By Jim (Jim) (216-102-74-74.scoe.org - on Tuesday, May 07, 2002 - 02:18 pm:

remember that with numbers we can manipulate them to make them say what ever we wish them to to prove "our" point. so let's look at it with a more logical tilt--how could Z do all that he did in trying to get the numbers "right" for his murders? it would be infinitely improbable that he could pull off these types of numbered sequences and number tie-ins with his handiwork because there are just too darn many variables that could have thrown evrything out of whack...such as bad weather, flat tire, stomach flu, who knows? to me the numbers would have to be closer (ie. identical) to convince me that there would be a true connection other than coincidence!

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-231-193-32.client.attbi.com - on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 12:07 am:

The Riverside Police Department is located at 4102 Orange Street. The numbers fit well with the others I listed above, plus Orange and Cherry go quite well together.

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-149-175-91.bos.east.verizon.net - on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 09:21 am:

TOm: You been sharing a few pops with Bookworm? You ever tally up how many numbers are associated with this case? You have any idea of the odds that some of them will match up? Give you an example: take any 30 people at random. Without doing the math, what would you guess are the odds -- better or worse than even -- that two of them will have the same birthday?

Hint: The actual odds of two numbers in any set generated like this are much higher than would intuitively seem possible. The result is that we tend to give such coincidences much more significance than they deserve.

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-149-175-91.bos.east.verizon.net - on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 09:23 am:

Correction; previous post should read: "of matching any two numbers in a set . . ."

By Bookworm (Bookworm) (12-206-165-69.client.attbi.com - on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 12:58 pm:

Try Orange Tree Cherry Tree, then you have C OTT.
Harry is missing, but that astrology letter of 1969 may have something to do with Truman (Harry).

"4102" Roosevelt died on 4/12 and Truman took office that same day. A reference to astrology: a quote from Truman that day - "He told reporters, 'I felt like the moon, the stars, and all the planets had fallen on me.'"

Actually, 1969(March 28) was the year that another president died, Eisenhower. Z did use Eisenhower stamps and Roosevelt stamps.

Truman didn't die until December of 1972. His stamps came out after the Zodiac letters.