Bay Area Trip, Part II
Zodiackiller.com Message Board: General Zodiac Discussion: Bay Area Trip, Part II
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (spider-ntc-ta013.proxy.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Tuesday, June 05, 2001 - 10:28 am:|
Tom flew down here to the Bay Area late last week for some breaking Z-news about...
well, you'll have to wait for the update, he says he should have a big one on Wednesday,
June 6th. A huge newspaper story appeared on June 2nd (not in any of the major
publications), which prompted the trip. Since I work weekends, I was only able to join him
yesterday, which was quite a productive day in any event. We have more planned for today,
but Tom will update you on everything.
One thing we discovered was that Eva Blau (Zodiac, pp. 251-252, 309) was almost certainly not a Z victim; while perusing the Press Democrat for March 1970, we discovered that she was front-page news for a week or so. It seems she was either abducted or offered a ride home in Cotati (a few miles south of Santa Rosa), and was given a huge amount of what was apparently tainted LSD or something similar (made at a home-based lab, no doubt), which caused or contributed to her death. She was apparently dumped about a quarter mile away, and her hands were either tied in front of her, or a rope was used to pull her body off the road. She was apparently not raped, and her murder obviously does not fit in with any known Z-murders. She should be removed from Graysmith's list of possible Z-victims in addition to Marie Antoinette Anstey and Lynda Kanes (and possibly Elaine Davis as well). BTW, she was not killed on the Vernal (spring) equinox as Graysmith opines; she died around 11 PM on March 12th, 1970, some nine days before the equinox.
Anyway, that's the news for now...
|By Jake (Jake) (spider-mtc-th021.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Tuesday, June 05, 2001 - 01:33 pm:|
"A huge newspaper story appeared on June 2nd (not in any of the major publications)..."
Does this minor publication have a name?
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (spider-ntc-tc032.proxy.aol.com - 18.104.22.168) on Tuesday, June 05, 2001 - 08:25 pm:|
Jake: yes it does. I didn't want to give anything away before Tom's update. Both Tom and I have a copy of the paper, and the story is far too large to scan (maybe in bits and pieces though). He said he'll be posting a text version of the story if and when the reporter forwards it to him (they have a website, but no stories are posted there, it seems).
|By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-mtc-tf043.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Tuesday, June 05, 2001 - 11:49 pm:|
Ed: Just as a thought, what about the "I shall change the way the collecting of
slaves" comment Z wrote in the 11/9/69 letter to the Chronicle? Only four months
prior to Eva Blau's apparently unrelated killing. Coincidental? Maybe. But it does set one
|By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-mtc-tf043.proxy.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Wednesday, June 06, 2001 - 12:01 am:|
Ps. Just a guess, The Contra Costa Times? No need to answer, I'll wait anxiously for Tom's next post. You guys rock! Seriously! I don't think I've been this excited since the night I lost my . . . well, never mind.
|By Bruce (Bruce_D) (pm3-01-46.sle.du.teleport.com - 188.8.131.52) on Wednesday, June 06, 2001 - 01:39 am:|
The Contra Costa Times IS A MAJOR PUBLICATION in quality and quantity.
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (acb774f2.ipt.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Wednesday, June 06, 2001 - 01:59 am:|
Scott: this "minor publication" is minor in the sense that it is (obviously)
not national, nor is it well known (as far as I know) in the state of California beyond
the county where it is published. I'd never heard of it until I got a copy of the story on
Monday! And I've been near that county several times over the years too...
Also, I'm not sure Z really "change[d] the way the collecting of slaves" any more than I think he really believed "all the I have killed will become my slaves." Personally, I think that after coming within a whisper of being caught after the commission of his last known crime, the coward got scared and didn't kill anyone after that. But that's just what I think... but then, anything's possible.
While perps might be smart enough to change MO to confuse the cops, signature remains the same. What we have with Eva Blau is a single female who was essentially abducted, poisoned, and then not just dumped but dragged off the road. Z never did anything like that, as has been discussed before. Considering Graysmith's penchant for pinning as many unsolved murders as possible on Z (even one that was solved FIFTEEN YEARS before the publication of his book), I think it's safe to discount Eva Blau.
|By Peter H (Peter_H) (220.127.116.11) on Wednesday, June 06, 2001 - 07:07 am:|
Whatever the publication is, it's not major enough to be picked up by the online news services (Nexis, etc.), or by any major publication that is covered by those services. Not one word on Z in any of them since the Examiner story.
|By Jake (Jake) (spider-tj014.proxy.aol.com - 18.104.22.168) on Wednesday, June 06, 2001 - 09:56 am:|
Uh-oh, we aren't talking about Harry Martin's Napa Sentinel, are we?!
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (spider-ntc-td074.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Wednesday, June 06, 2001 - 12:50 pm:|
He already "solved" the case nine years ago and gave himself a pat on the back for it... he's onto more "interesting" things for publication in his Napa Enquirer, uhh, Sentinel...
|By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ntc-td064.proxy.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Wednesday, June 06, 2001 - 02:53 pm:|
Just for fun--How 'bout the Napa Christian Science Monitor??
|By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-th042.proxy.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Wednesday, June 06, 2001 - 04:55 pm:|
Ed: Interesting. I'd say that chances are pretty good that you're right about Eva Blau
not being one of Zodiac's victims. However, if Z was a fully blossomed serial killer in
the strictest sense of the definition, I'd have to disagree with you that he simply
stopped killing following the Stine murder. Although it is possible, the most current
studies of serial killers simply dictate otherwise. I do agree with you about Z being a
coward though. The vast majority of serial killers are cowards.
|By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-th042.proxy.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Wednesday, June 06, 2001 - 05:01 pm:|
Bruce: Yes, you're right about the Contra Costa Times. Pardon my oversight.
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (spider-ntc-td014.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Wednesday, June 06, 2001 - 05:20 pm:|
Scott: I've often wondered if Z really was a serial killer in the strictest sense of the term. Also, since he tended to prefer blitz-style attacks using guns and a knife, poisoning with a megadose of a tainted LSD-type substance seems a little too mundane for him...
|By Esau (Esau) (proxy2-external.scrmnt1.ca.home.com - 18.104.22.168) on Wednesday, June 06, 2001 - 07:11 pm:|
Good point Ed but I have to disagree. Even though the Lake Berryessa murder was by knife it was far from a blitz style attack. Zodiac spent a considerable amount of time making small talk with the victims then announced he would have to stab them. He could have spent less time than that and still be able to poison a victim.
|By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 22.214.171.124) on Wednesday, June 06, 2001 - 09:51 pm:|
Zodiac liked the game of confusion. That is why he liked to use different weapons. He loved taunting the police. Using a different 9mil. on Stine , then to prove he was the killer he took part of the shirt. He wrote about torture,it could have been one of his fantasy's. He was experimenting in different ways of killing people.If z hadn't sent notes, or made phone calls saying he did it,Know one would have thought zodiac did all of the known victims.I for one was told by my suspect, that he would kill me in a way that none of the other victims were killed (yet.)Not in those exact words. It was written in large letters, my last name, and the weapon he would use. I happen to know ,and can prove that Eva Blau once lived in Oakland with her parents, and her father was a part owner of a printing shop, that Kanes friend worked at in the bay area.I don't believe in "too many" coincidences. Leona Roberts was kept alive for 10 days,she was found on 12/28/69 and was missing on 12/10/69. If she was killed on 12/20/69 it would be one year to the day of the Jensen Faraday shooting.She wasn't shot,she died from Exposure, or at least that was the conclusion.He probably sat there and smoked a carton of cigarettes.He said he would not announce his killings ,and from then on he didn't,like he said the pace wasn't any slower.
|By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-mtc-tj061.proxy.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Wednesday, June 06, 2001 - 10:34 pm:|
Sandy: We don't know that the 9mm pistol used to kill Stine was different from the one
used to shoot Darlene Ferrin and Mike Mageau, do we? I'll stand corrected if this is not
Ed: I am in 100% agreement with you. I've often felt that it is a good possibility Z WASN'T a fully blossomed serial killer. I believe that he was someone who experimented with a lot of different forms of depravity, but never fully emerged as a serial killer. In fact, I also believe that there is a good possibility that murder actually troubled him; made him feel uncomfortable. If that's the case, then there is a very good possibility that Stine was his last victim. In my opinion, if ALA was the Zodiac, this would actually make sense. However, if we're wrong, and Z was a fully emerged serial killer, the likelihood that Stine was his last victim are slim to none.
|By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-wc084.proxy.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Thursday, June 07, 2001 - 11:22 am:|
There is no reason to believe that Z was not all over the board in his methods, in my
opinion esp. if he really did just enjoy killing people. Ever see that very macabre film
on the many different ways to die??
I think we try to stereotype serial killers to make some sense of it, but the real fascination
here is that often we can't. There is not one mode, and the crimes can be seemingly motiveless.
Some profilers say they can't stop, others says they never get over the desire but can give up the life and just sit back in that armchair and relive each time.
The spooky thing about Ted Bundy was exactly how normal he was, he wasn't even a Mad Genious like Ted K., he had plenty of girlfriends and sexual partners. If you have ever seen him interviewed, you see how charming he was...the Warren Beatty of the serial killer world. The Kansas serial killer John Robinson was an Eagle Scout and a good family man. We are talking about virtually every race, all walks of life, socioeconomic conditions. The only thing agreed upon is apparently it is almost always a male thing. So why would'nt Zodiac continue killing in a variety of ways? Why wouldn't he change his style and keep it to himself? It is all perfectly possible.
|By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 184.108.40.206) on Thursday, June 07, 2001 - 06:24 pm:|
Scott, The 9ml. was not the same one used on Darlene. I am sure some one else like Ed, Howard or Tom, can verify this as fact. I know some of you are not happy with Graysmiths z book, but on page 319 under Zodiacs weapons---he shows a "second" Browning high power 9ml. was used on Stine. The other reason I believe this to be true is a Detective from Sac.DOJ said: We don't know for sure if it was Zodiac who killed Darlene! If it was the same gun, then they would connect the two shootings I would think,don't you?
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (spider-ntc-tc064.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Thursday, June 07, 2001 - 06:59 pm:|
Scott: I thought I posted this before, but perhaps I didn't. According to the search warrant for Allen's trailer in 1972, two different 9 mms were listed. That therefore suggests that Z used two different ones in the commission of the BRS and PH murders.
|By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 18.104.22.168) on Thursday, June 07, 2001 - 07:17 pm:|
Thank you Ed.
|By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (dialup-22.214.171.124.dial1.denver1.level3.net - 126.96.36.199) on Thursday, June 07, 2001 - 07:24 pm:|
Sandy, Ed: Thanks for the verification and sorry for the oversight.
One additional note to my previous post. I'd said, "if we're wrong, and Z was a fully emerged serial killer (which I doubt is the case), the likelihood that Stine was his last victim are slim to none." (Parentheses not in original text.)
I am also of the opinion that if the aforementioned is true, then the likelihood that ALA was Z are slim to none as well.
|By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 188.8.131.52) on Saturday, June 09, 2001 - 09:29 pm:|
Thank you scott, my thoughts exactly.When I read the report on Allen, and the molestation of the young boy.It reassured me that Allen, by not physically hurting the boy, did something that the zodiac could not do.What I am trying to convey is, Zodiac liked hurting,why would he "not" hurt the boy? Z would have caused as much pain as he could,then killed the boy , dispose of the body so no one would find it. As far as the Calaveras story, I think it will turn out like the military shoes found at Allen home.(Not true) How convenient the "star" witness is no where to be found. I can't think of one young girl who would allow a teacher to pull up her dress, or would stand on her head with a dress on!I feel that the person who put out that story , wants 15min of fame. If Allen used the words Titwillow, I am sure a lot of other people would have noticed. What is your take on it?
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acb52ecc.ipt.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Saturday, June 09, 2001 - 09:34 pm:|
"Z would have caused as much pain as he could,then killed the boy"
How do you know that? Is it your opinion that Zodiac was not capable of relationships that didn't end in murder? If so, wouldn't his score have been a lot higher than 37?
"I can't think of one young girl who would allow a teacher to pull up her dress, or would stand on her head with a dress on!"
Sandy, your comments show a great deal of ignorance concering young molestation victims.
|By Socal (Socal) (66-74-213-87.san.rr.com - 220.127.116.11) on Saturday, June 09, 2001 - 09:36 pm:|
This case has more turns in it than a country hiway. What a great movie it would be. Does any one know of future plans for a movie??? I know there has been a couple of old attempts which were horrible.
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acab4f69.ipt.aol.com - 18.104.22.168) on Saturday, June 09, 2001 - 11:34 pm:|
That's already a topic of discussion elsewhere on the board.
|By Spencer (Spencer) (ac9cd80c.ipt.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 12:07 am:|
>I feel that the person who put out that story , wants 15min of fame.
This would have been a possibility if not for the fact that the person, "Cindy Michaels", used an alias. It's hard to get your "15 minutes of fame" if people don't know who you are. Also, I would have thought someone only interested in fame would have chosen a publication read by anyone outside of Valley Springs and Angels Camp, California.
|By Mark (Mark) (30-117-237-24.anc-dial.gci.net - 126.96.36.199) on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 05:40 am:|
And not only that, wouldn't have waited over 30 years to do so! To me waiting that length of time for the "15 minutes of fame" just doesn't make any sense! Mark
|By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 188.8.131.52) on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 06:25 pm:|
Tom, I have raised five children, and have baby sat many more. If any teacher would have pulled anything like that on any of them and in front of all the other children, they would have come to me that very day.Don't you think They would have turned him in as soon as it happened? I was molested at age 6 in front of my home, within 2min. my mother was told and the man was arrested.(It wasn't Allen.) Waiting 30 years to tell ,and none of the others have come forward in this amount of time makes no sense to me. Men think differently than women for sure. Cindy Michaels can still get her 15min. of fame like others going on TV and having the face blurred. She is getting a lot of attention right now. Tom, what makes you so sure that he stopped at 37? I believe he has kept his word, and is not letting us know,just like he said he would. Did you know that girls have been murdered, and someone has sent notes to the police the same way Z did? Only he hasn't given himself a name.Some of the notes have been left by the killer on one of the victims. Oh, but that couldn't be z he never did it that way! All I know about the man who calls himself Zodiac, is what I myself observed face to face with him in 68 in Vallejo -Napa area, and in 88in Oakland. I can tell you this, he is not the friendly guy next door.He is arrogant, very unfriendly, wont talk to you when he is spoken to.when he looks at you it is a glare not a glance.He is very shaky, bold at times, and yet still a coward. He wares a hunters jacket most of the time.His shoes are still shiny, and he is still alive.I don't want to argue with you about it, and I am not claiming to be smarter than you . The only advantage Kathleen ,Pam ,and I have is, we know what he looks like.If you think we are all liars, then why not try and prove us wrong? Lets say Allen was the Z,he is dead. lets go after the man who seems to think he was Z in 68, and still thinks so today. He needs to be stopped!!
|By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (cache-rq05.proxy.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Monday, June 11, 2001 - 10:47 am:|
Sandy: If I were you, and had as much data collected on this "man" as you
say you have, I wouldn't be soliciting help from members of the board, I'd be calling the
police and relaying as much information to them as possible. After all, if it hadn't been
for the perseverance of Bundy's ex-fiancee, TB might still be walking around, alive and
well. I guess what I'm trying to ask is, have you done everything within your power to
ensure that this alleged Z suspect is at least being investigated? Just trying to help.
|By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 220.127.116.11) on Monday, June 11, 2001 - 10:07 pm:|
Scott, I do give the police all of the info I have on this man. They have a open case on him stalking me.They were the ones who told me to take his picture. I did that, and gave a copy to all the pds with a interest in Z. That's how I was told by VPD that his name is Kane. If SFPD would get what I gave them in 1990, out of the evidence room,and check out the prints, they would have just what they need to get this guy. But when I asked them if they have checked the prints out yet?I was told that they have to go according to priority! Is it any wonder why he is not caught yet? Sometimes having "too much" information can be a hindrance.I was hoping that I could find a investigator like Bill Baker, who would listen to what I have to say. And either prove me wrong, or go for it.The note I was given , that looks "just" like Z printing, I was told looked too much like his to be his. I am sorry for those of you that have heard this many times before. This board has been a great help to me, I need to vent. The 5min. the police give you to tell your story isn't enough time to understand what this man does (I use that word loosely)He is a poor excuse of a man!And because I am still alive, it is a hard one to believe,and of course he knows that.