Zodiackiller.com Message Board: General Zodiac Discussion: Secret Zodiac Cache of Evidence Possible?

From what is generally known of serial killers they have a tendency to keep "trophies". With that in mind isn't it possible that Zodiac hid the remains of Stines shirt, wallet, car keys and whatever else he thought was important in an undisclosed location? Or was he too careful and/or paranoid to do so? Robert Hansen the serial killer up here in Alaska was found to have a bag of jewelry he'd taken from his victims at the end of a crawl space. Evidently he thought it was secure because it took quite a lengthy crawl from one end of the house to the other to access it. In this case I don't believe any jewelry or personal effects were taken from any of the victims except Stine-is this correct? I just have a sneaking suspicion that somewhere is a Zodiac "Time Capsule" as Ed N coined it. Because of his psychological make-up I think he wouldn't hide this TOO well, he'd want it discovered. And if, I do say "if" ALA is the Zodiac I believe somewhere on the property at 32 Fresno St. is this cache. Perhaps in one of his old vehicles also. -Mark

Mark: Actually it was me who opined that Z might have kept a "time capsule." At any rate, I'm of the opinion that IF ALA was Zodiac, chances are pretty good that he destroyed any evidence that would implicate him immediately following the search of his trailer in '71. I could be wrong, and actually hope that I am, but it seems that ALA was a coward and would not have wanted to be discovered while he was still alive.

Just some thoughts.

Scott

Also, I believe whoever Z was may have had his own persona so intertwined with Z that the only way for Z to attain true immortality was to never be discovered. For if even after Z's human embodiment passed over to the other side-Z would remain immortal only if his mystique survived for eternity.
Bruce D

That's a good point Bruce D. Z would have probably preferred to have been immortalized rather than discovered. And, unfortunately, Z gets closer to mythological status with each day that passes. Sad but true.

Scott

Scott-sorry about the "time capsule" error,I wanted to give credit where credit was due rather than just adopting the phrase and managed to foul that up! Anyway, good points by both you and Bruce D. and interesting how Z's psychological make-up is so very relevant to whether or not the time capsule exists. If ALA was the Zodiac I'm sure he was shaken up by that search, but I don't know if he'd have destroyed everything outright.
He seemed to really enjoy a certain amount of risk and maybe had a false sense of security. Of course in light of what happened later on how false was it? Bruce, really thought provoking post about the importance Z might've attached to remaining undiscovered and immortal. I thought perhaps he might want to continue his earthly goading of the police from beyond the grave by one last act of defiance. Of course what better "last act" than one that continues forever! Of course the DNA tests could ruin his dream.
-Mark

It's funny how NOTHING in this case seems to be purely black or white. The "immortal" side of the coin is pretty compelling; the ultimate defiant stance against the world: "YOU WILL NEVER KNOW MY NAME," Z probably laughed/laughs.

On the other hand, let's assume for a moment that Z is still living and is hip to how chic this whole case has become. Doesn't it seem reasonable that, in the 33 years since the first known crime, that he would almost certainly have had to tell somebody about it? I mean, it seems he was probably such an egotistical braggart that he simply wouldn't have been able to contain himself. Ever have a secret that you knew was going to be impossible to contain? I believe this would have been a real dilemma for Arthur . . . oops, I mean, Zodiac.

Which side of the coin is most reasonable? Or should I say, which shade of gray is closest to white?

Scott

Scott if there were such a time capsule it might not surface for another 300 years, at which time a society reflecting back on its history might view z as a hero.
I don't think z would ever let his ego get in the way of a mission , would you?
Closest to white is absent of color...more myth than magic.

Scott-I agree with the continual procession of "gray areas" involving this case-as far as I can see none of it is really cut and dried as far as serial murder cases go. If ALA was indeed Zodiac isn't it on record that he stated to friends and family that he was the Zodiac? Most likely in that "comical way" Allen had, parts of that TV interview give me the creeps. I know at one point he'd managed to scare his family to death with him being a suspect and the fact that he was a pretty bizarre guy anyway! It's hard to say-perhaps he went to far as to show them some evidence but I doubt he'd play his hand to that extent. Now what if the Zodiac isn't Allen and still living? I'd imagine he'd be bursting at the seams trying to contain his delicious secret-yeah I'd think it would be almost impossible. That's why I doubt that Zodiac is still living, he would
have to communicate through the media in some manner. Maybe he has been in some arcane way!But here again is the gray area, maybe he's one of the few serial killers that is/was capable of controlling that impulse.
How about this scenario-a "time capsule" left somewhere where the location doesn't give away his identity? This way he still has the knowledge that he's beaten the police one more time yet the mystique and myth remains intact?
He's still immortal, the ultimate enigma and they have something to put in his "shrine" at a museum. It really is fascinating trying to get a fix on what Zodiac would do because just when you think you can grasp what made him tick there's yet another wrinkle, another dead end (or is it?)
How thoroughly did Douglas and his fellow profilers work on Zodiac's Profile?

Zoe-I'm curious as to why you think society would possibly view him as a hero in the future? More myth than magic--nice!!

PS-Scott have you gotten a hold of Kenny? I'd be interested in your comments if you feel like emailing me at markcoombs@gci.net

Zoe: I'm not sure if society would regard Z as a "hero" per se, but I'm sure he has captured a certain subculture that will regard him with fascination even if he is finally identified. For the most part, Zodiac already exists as a mythological character; a figure of urban legend and folklore.* I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "mission." Could you elaborate?

Mark: The "time capsule scenario" that you described is intriguing. But I'm inclined to think that Z's "mystique and myth" would remain "intact" whether it was found or not. Can you imagine if it was found and the police had known who it was all along? It would be one last opportunity to rub their noses in their own inadequacies. Or what if it revealed someone who was widely known but never suspected? Or someone that was never known, much less suspected? I know, we're way into the gray area again. The mind reels with possibilities. This is why Zodiac is ALREADY a mythological figure of sorts.

BTW, in my statement "which shade of grey is closest to white" I was alluding to the color charts and gray scales commonly used in still photography and motion picture photography. 17 percent gray registers as white in tungsten balanced, color negative film. Just impertinent, FYI stuff.

*I think it would be fair to say that 20% of the general population has heard of the Zodiac Killer. However, of that 20%, perhaps 2% could actually relay an unembellished account of the true story. Hence my referring to Z as a "figure of urban legend and folklore." The same can be said of Ed Gein, whose real life story spawned works of fiction such as "Psycho," "The Texas Chain Saw Massacre," and "Deranged." BTW, a new film, simply entitled "Ed Gein," has already made the festival rounds and should be coming to theatres soon. Apparently, it's an attempt to separate fact from fiction once and for all. Maybe the same will happen for Z in the near future.

Sorry for all the babble.

Scott

Ps. This whole "Kenny Kilgore" thing has already caused me more trouble than it's worth. I've chosen to distance myself from that situation until substantial material mandates that I should do otherwise.

Scott-babble on, it's interesting! At times I think that if evidence was hidden it would've been found by now because Zodiac would leave some clue to find the "treasure". Then I'm making the mistake of assuming that a) he's dead or b) he's Allen. I would think that Z if alive would want to retain possession of his mementos-imagine if the LB Hood and costume are still in existance along with the Stine articles! It does baffle me a little as to why Allen would hang on to that typewriter for all those years along with why the Vallejo PD never has even compared it to the Bates letters! Here's where the "gray areas" fade nearer to black-how is it possible to know conclusively out of how many serial killers at large how many were able to quit killing? If Allen was Z he had to have known how frequently he was being watched after he was released from Atascadero-he wasn't that careless. Of course alot of these killers simply relocate like Bundy did and back in those days it was alot easier to disappear. Allen looked like he wanted to at least put up the front that he was going to go the "straight and narrow" route and not violate his parole by leaving state. What happens if the DNA does come back and ALA isn't a match as well as all the other major suspects they have DNA samples of? How about the Rodelli suspect? Has he offered to give them a sample himself? I'm certainly not going to write someone off as a suspect because of his social standing. Yes as you were saying the mind reels, I wonder also if z is still alive could he possibly be satisfied with the way his myth is being propelled quite well without any further input from him. -Mark
PS-I figured that the Kenny Kilgore queries were going to be that way-we need more than vague circumstancial stuff!

Z lives in a world of delusion. His past actions
rarely cross his deranged mind other than in moments of clouded memory which would compel him to draw what he can recall in order to inhance the image. You will find the cache on his person or if he discards it. As Z has passed through the years he's left behind several caches. Some have probably been found, but discarded because of a failure to recognize their importance. Look for a homeless grimy lunatic oblivious to the world around him, obsessively scrawling page after page of cryptography in a vain attempt to reign in his private niche of hell.

The PD should use a Bebbole machine to bore into ALA's old house.

Maybe a Bebbole machine can be used to decode ciphers. Has anyone thought to try?

Few people are aware of the bebbole machine's capacities. Dean Kamen holds the patent, he calls it "Ginger". Alan Turing first conceived it, on a visit to Hawaii with a young Negro gentleman who was said to be a sailor.

All your base belong to us, as they used to say.

Mark, if a) he's Allen, then b) he's dead.

Will post something substantive one of these days,

Roger

If Allen was Zodiac, I doubt anything was hidden at his house. As Ed touched on, the current owner of Allen's old house would probably know by now if Allen had hidden anything. Besides flooding and termites, the house has also been remodeled.

Tom-the house is out I'll agree, but it'd be interesting to see if they could do some readings out in the yard. Was the present owner fairly friendly on your last visit or does he get too many curious people coming by? -Mark

The dogs would try to dig up the yard, and cats will scratch at the walls if anything is buried in them...?...so I've heard.

I've never heard of cats scratching walls to get at whats in them but I have heard of dogs digging up disturbed soil. Of course if anything was buried out there some settling has occurred since (ha ha). I'm sure the current residents aren't all that excited about people using sonar gear and digging up their yard-but it'd be interesting to see what they'd find!! -Mark

As long as everything was replaced to the same or even better than before, I'd be curious myself and let them do it! Of course, if anything was found, I think I'd move. LOL

If a "time capsule" does exist, it's probably buried in the yard in front of the Vallejo Police Department. It probably makes more sense to start digging there instead of a suspect's old residence, because then Z would have ensured that it would never be found until the end of the Apocalypse!

Scott

The kind of society that would consider a mass murderer terrorist a hero is rather bleak to imagine. If we consider for a moment Zodiac's
as terroism 101 , we can see today the damage of a
more advanced terrorist from recent events.
As millions consider the more advanced terroist
a hero today a time may come where a similiar
population will consider the same about Zodiac.

Would a seret cashe of eveidence revel a mission
in which an agreived group might except or even embrace zodiac's tactics?

Has the more advanced terroist of current time learned from zodiac? As suggest on the board there
are undenaible similarities in the recent antrax letters to thoose of Zodiacs.

I would imagine such a soceity could develop
in the midst of a holy war.The insanity of such a war would grow agreived groups. Any of which would
be capable of pushing a button to a weapon of mass
desruction if they had it. Has Zodiac passed out such buttons? Sure a secret cashe of evidence is possible. As is a game of who's got the button.