Zodiackiller.com Message Board: General Zodiac Discussion: Zodiac and Gentleman before Ladies

I note that Zodiac shot the male victim first and then the female at LHR and BRS.At LB Z stabbed the male first even though Hartnell supposedly requested that he be stabbed first it probably would have been in that order anyway based on the sequence of the other attacks.Harnell was tied up first.

Going back to the SB case it seems as though the male is tied up first(although at some point he frees himself and actually struggles with the perp )but runs-along with his girlfriend- down the creek bed and is shot first and then the female is shot.He is laid down first then she is placed on top of him.

With Stine it would be his wife that would learn of his murder.Of course, this is a modification of pattern,-the two were not together, but has some semblance to male 'first',although it was a 'distance factor' in this case.Stretchhhh

I also note that three teens Manson suddenly shot with a .45 were two males and a female and that a witness said the two males were shot first.At the Tate scene the males were to die first so that Sharon would see it and be terrified even more!At the LaBianca home the male was killed first and his wife could hear the stabbing and then she was killed.In the Gaul/Sharp '87 it was Sharp that was stabbed first and she was heard crying out Jimmie-Jimmie!

In Mansons view it was fitting for the female to see or at least hear her partner killed first so she would be completly overwhelmed with fright (like Shepard at LB?).

Just a comparison of order relative to both sets of crimes.FYI

Howard,

I have a copy of an interview with Manson and one of the points he makes is that if you're going to do something, then do it right. Do something that people will notice. "Make it witchy," he said. He definitely thought out what he wanted to do.

When I hear the report from LB that Z was shrieking as he stabbed the girl, though, I think that the focus of his rage was the woman. I think that whoever Z was, he had a thing for women -- this over and above any possible instructions from Manson. I think he wanted to knock off couples, but the rage was directed at the woman.

And I tend to agree with the point that Stine was killed just to counter the criticisms in the press that Z was somehow effete in his interactions with males.

"When I hear the report from LB that Z was shrieking as he stabbed the girl, though, I think that the focus of his rage was the woman."

Fife, have you read the Napa County report posted at my site?
Is there anything in that report stating Zodiac was "shrieking" when he stabbed Shepard?

Tom V

I have looked for that quote a couple of times, but haven't re-found it. My memory of it was that it was a quote from White of what Hartnell said at the scene before the ambulance came. In my mind I relate it to the chicken quote from Hartnell.

Do you know where it came from?

Tom F

The idea that Z made noises while stabbing Bates comes from an article in the Vallejo Times-Herald, dated 30 September 1969, written by Jane Smith, titled "Girl Stabbing Victim Dies In Napa Hospital".

The following quote appears in that article, and is provided by Ranger White:

"'When he stabbed Hartnell it was deliberate. When he stabbed the girl he laughed in a frenzy,' White said Hartnell told him" [emphasis added].

Spencer

It's not in the police report, not in Hartnell's interview and not in Hartnell's account (not posted) of everything Zodiac said that day.

I'll cooberate that. It probably came from a true-crime TV show.

Zodiac was shrieking as he stabbed CS in the America's Most Wanted version of LB.

I can do no better than to quote from "Alice in Wonderland":

"That is not said right," said the Caterpillar.

"Not quite right, I'm afraid," said Alice, timidly: "Some of the words have got altered."

"It is wrong from beginning to end," said the Caterpillar decidedly ....

I quote from Graysmiths Zodiac page 70 :"Still on his[Zodiac] knees[early on the police should have checked all suspects knees to see if there were abrasions from grinding movements on the ground],the man gave a ghastly,frenzied sound and,letting out a long low exhalation, began stabbing the girl in the back."Supposedly, this piece of narrative came out of Graysmiths interview with Hartnell.

The 9/27/69 Napa PD Report says, after interviewing Hartnell, "Suspect went into SOME SORT OF FRENZY when stabbing Miss Shepard."(EMP mine).Did Hartnell expand on his PD account to Graysmith?

Based on if this 'animal like sound' was given at LB I posted on where Z could have gotten it.It's very interesting.

I have gone over Harnells statements and he does add details to his testimony which is not that uncommon.After the trauma and drugs wear off a witness can remember things that happened during the crime.There are certainly pros and cons on this phenomenon.

Fife,

I was basically discussing the ORDER of victim kill relative to the two sets of crimes.Yes,Zodiac did show more violence towards the female, but his intent was to kill both .See his two phone messages.

Another PD Report says that Hartnell said that: "He[the perp]kind of went a little more hog -wild with her[Cecelia]than with me."

I'm not disputing any inference drawn from the fact that Zodiac's rage was directed against women
However,could it not be said that he was simply eliminating the greatest threat first...the male

"(C)ould it not be said that he was simply eliminating the greatest threat first...the male(?)"

My thoughts exactly.

Hard to believe this might have been the huge hulking beast of a man who could beat up any number of Marines without working up a sweat.

Doug, if you are speaking of Allen, by the late 1960s he was in very bad shape...mentally and physically.

If Zodiac killed the two Santa Barbara teens in 1963, he definitely learned the value in securing his victims before assaulting them. That would explain a few things about Lake Berryessa attack.

On that LB attack is it not reported by Hartnell
that Zodiac warned him not to "try anything" or words to that effect.It shows perhaps that Zodiac was conscious of the possible threat.
The fact that BLJ got the opportunity to make an escape attempt might also have played a part in Zodiac's thinking!
Douglas,are we to deduce that you are considering
the possibility that ALA was involved?

He stabbed Hartnell many times and just by chance missed puncturing his heart sac. He shot Mageau behind the ear and shot Stine in the head. How could you say he was more violent towards women? True two out of the four known male victims of Z survived but I think that that was do more to luck or chance than anything else. You want to tell me Z knew where and how to stab Bryan so that he wouldn't be killed, and was so skilled with a knife that he just missed cutting into his heart? Please, no one is that good.

BlackJet, I have to agree with you that Z did not INTENTIONALLY allow the young men to live. Even to the experienced anatomist cutting a dead or anesthetized human, there are unexpected variations from the external to the internal anatomy that make for all sorts of surprises. Add to that clothing which covers external anatomic landmarks, victims who are moving around, the fear of getting caught, and the probability that Z had NOT done hundreds of human dissections. I would be hard-pressed to find even the best surgeon who could inflict wounds of that variety and feel relatively sure that the person would survive.

On that subject, however, I'm guessing that it really ticked Z off that the men DID survive.