The Bizarre Side of the SF Bay Area in the 1960s and 70s


Zodiackiller.com Message Board: General Zodiac Discussion: The Bizarre Side of the SF Bay Area in the 1960s and 70s

By Mcgarrett2000 (Mcgarrett2000) (adsl-64-166-22-76.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net - 64.166.22.76) on Sunday, October 14, 2001 - 09:24 pm:

The San Francisco Bay Area during the 1960s and 70s was the center of many political, cultural and social changes in this country. The Berkley student movement, the Summer of Love, and Gay rights all started here. Sadly, this breeding ground for societal upheavals also had its ugly side. Zodiac (what this message board is about after all) bears the distinction of being a prototypical serial killer of the second half of the twentieth century in America. With his media obsession, and seemingly random but calculated acts, he was a harbinger of others to come.

But the Zodiac wasn’t the only one to gain this kind of sick notoriety in the Bay Area at this time. Although the Reverend Jim Jones did not come from here, he certainly found it to be very hospitable to him as he was strongly supported by SF’s political elite and his church’s support helped (either legally or illegally) get Harvey Milk elected to the Board of Supervisors, George Moscone elected Mayor and current Mayor Willie Brown elected to the Calif. State Assembly. Jones was also to have a friend in then-Calif. Governor and now Mayor of Oakland Jerry Brown to boot. A week after the Guyana tragedy (about the time that Time Magazine ran its vat of purple Kool-Aid cover), conservative supervisor Dan White blew away Milk and Moscone and then received a minimal sentence using the infamous Twinkie Defense.

There was also Patty Hearst and the SLA, a subject which even encouraged Zodiac to write a letter probably due to some jealousy over the amount of ink the Chron and Ex were spending on that story. After all, Patty was part of the Hearst family that owned the Ex at that time. Let’s not forget that Charlie Manson spent his time in the Haight Ashbury as well and, later, Richard Ramirez, the Night Stalker would make his way up to Baghdad by the Bay to commit murder.

By posting this, I am not making any claim that Zodiac was in any way connected to Jim Jones and the Peoples’ Temple, the Symbionese Liberation Army, or the Manson family and don’t want to start anyone off on any such tangents. I just want to start a thread that looks at the bizarre underside of the San Francisco Bay Area at this time and discusses the social climate that Zodiac lived in and shared with a Rogue’s gallery as infamous as he. Any thoughts on this anyone?

By Bookworm (Bookworm) (cb23775-b.rmvll1.il.home.com - 24.182.40.121) on Friday, October 19, 2001 - 06:38 am:

Mcgarrett, I don't live in the SFB area, but maybe a timeline would add some perspective.

By Mcgarrett2000 (Mcgarrett2000) (adsl-64-165-200-214.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net - 64.165.200.214) on Sunday, October 21, 2001 - 06:36 pm:

I will work on it over the next couple of days to give some perspective on what was going on out here during the time of the Zodiac. Thanks!

By Mcgarrett2000 (Mcgarrett2000) (adsl-64-165-200-245.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net - 64.165.200.245) on Monday, October 22, 2001 - 11:06 pm:

Here is a rough version of the Bay Area timeline as requested. I hope, if this fosters discussion, that it will be greatly added to over time. Please refer to this site to compare the time of the Zodiac's murders and letters to other strange (and not so strange) Northern Calif. goings on. Also, I am in no way saying that Zodiac was connected to the SLA, Altamont, the People's Temple or Dan White. This is not about conspiracy theories but is to foster a discussion on the times (and place) that Z lived and killed in that may shed some light on this board's main subject.

Fall, 1964: Berkeley People’s Park Protest and the beginnings of the Student Free Speech Movement.

Summer, 1967: The Summer of Love. San Francisco’s Haight Ashbury district becomes the spiritual center of the LSD driven Summer of Love and the Hippy movement. Charles Manson lived on Haight Street at the time and was greatly influenced by Flower Power.

August 9-10, 1969: Tate-LaBianca Murders committed by the Manson Family. (LA not SF but significant).

Dec. 6, 1969: ALTAMONT. Free Rolling Stones concert at the isolated Altamont Speedway in Livermore, Calif. ends in utter disaster as the Hell’s Angels, that were the only security at the event, stabbed a man to death. The whole concert that also featured Santana, Jefferson Airplane and the Grateful Dead, was marred by Hell’s Angel violence and 3 other concertgoers died bringing the death toll to four. Where the Summer of Love in 1967 marked the beginning of the hippy culture driven by rock and roll and psychedelic drugs and Woodstock was its zenith, Altamont was its death knell. Zodiac favorite Melvin Belli was the Stones’ attorney who helped them put together this free show.
http://www.salon.com/ent/col/srag/2000/08/10/gimme_shelter/

June 1970: Manson Trial officially begins. (again, LA not SF)

February 4, 1974: Patty Hearst kidnapped. Patty Hearst, an heiress to the Hearst publishing empire (of which the SF Examiner was the flagship at the time) was kidnapped by a far-left group calling itself the Symbionese Liberation Army (SLA). Unlike other kidnappings of wealthy people in the annals of the American crime, this was the first political kidnapping. The Event was a media circus as the SLA circulated tapes of Patty Hearst to the press. As the series of tapes progressed, Hearst started to take on the views of captors and she eventually changed her name to “Tania” and announced she was joining the SLA.

April 15, 1974: Patty Hearst photographed robbing the Hibernia bank in the Sunset district of San Francisco.

1975: Rev. Jim Jones and his People’s Temple heavily influenced San Francisco Municipal elections and helped Mayor George Moscone, Supervisor Harvey Milk, and DA Joseph Freitas get into office. Some have even accused the Temple of committing voting fraud in these elections. Current Mayor and former Speaker of the Assembly Willie Brown was also a recipient of help from the Peoples’ Temple. The fraud was later investigated by Freitas himself, who also ordered the 1975 voting records destroyed.
http://www.brasscheck.com/jonestown/electionfraud.html

September 18, 1975: Patty Hearst captured and charged with bank robbery.
http://www.pattyhearst.com/kidnap.htm

September 1976: The Burtons, Willie Brown, Williams, Moscone, radical academic Angela Davis, lawyer Vincent Hallinan, Lieutenant Governor Mervyn Dymally and publisher Carlton Goodlett toasted Jones at a big testimonial dinner. A month later, Moscone named him to a seat on the San Francisco Housing Authority Commission.

November 18, 1978: Jonestown Massacre in Guyana. Reverend Jim Jones orders the mass suicides of his 911 followers. Many committed suicide by drinking cyanide laced purple Kool-Aid. Those that didn’t were shot by other cult members. San Mateo congressman Leo Ryan and reporters from the SF Examiner were also killed by Jones’ followers that day (shot on an airstrip about to leave). Ryan and a delegation from the press were there to investigate conditions at Jonestown.

Nov. 27, 1978: Conservative San Francisco Supervisor Dan White shoots and kills Mayor Moscone and Harvey Milk in the Mayor’s office just 9 days after Jonestown. Willie Brown, who had just been in Moscone’s office, had left only minutes before White’s arrival and narrowly escaped becoming another victim. Using what was to become known as the Twinkie Defense, got off with only manslaughter charges.

By Mcgarrett2000 (Mcgarrett2000) (adsl-64-168-26-123.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net - 64.168.26.123) on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 06:29 pm:

Here are some other dates of interest in my SF History file. A lot of this material can actually be found on www.mistersf.com/index.html. I will keep adding to it, and if it gets too big, then I will have to risk redundancy of posts and merge all of the timelines together just to make sense of them. I really wish that I could dig up something crazy that happened in Vallejo during the 1960s-70s but, besides the Zodiac, I have had no such luck. 6 Flags Marine World is in Vallejo now. Ooooo Ahhhhh. Anyway here are some more Bay Area dates of interest...

June 16, 1964: Waitress Carol Doda dances ontop of a piano with a topless bathing suit on at the Condor Club. This inspires many other clubs in SF's Northbeach district to also go topless and the neighborhood is still known today for its "Live Nude Girls" and fine Italian dining.

April 30, 1966: Church of Satan formed in San Francisco when Anton LaVey proclaims the beginning of the "Satanic Era."

October, 1966: The Black Panther Party for Self-Defense founded in Oakland, Calif. by Huey P. Newton and Bobby Seale. The Panters were a controversial group that advocated the arming of blacks against what was seen as a predominantly white and hostile police force. They were also proponents of socialism, self reliance and started many food and educational programs in the inner cities of the time. http://csf.colorado.edu/mirrors/marxists.org/history/usa/workers/black-panthers/

May 1967: 30 Black Panthers armed with rifles march on the State Capitol in Sacramento. This act, planned as a protest to show the rights of African Americans to bear arms against a hostile White power structure, garners the group national attention and soon Black Panther Party headquarters are opened in cities around the US including Chicago, New York and LA. All 30 Panther members who stormed the Capitol, were arrested.

October, 1967: Huey Newton, the Minister of Defence for the Black Panther Party is arrested for killing an Oakland Cop. The "Free Huey" movement then begins.

July 4, 1969: Porno movie moguls Jim and Artie Mitchell open up the Mitchell Brother's O'Farrell Theatre on the corner of Larkin and O'Farrell Sts. in SF. The Theatre is still open today and offers live nude girls more than movies.

1973: The Zebra Murders. A string of racially motivated murders in San Francisco where 4 blacks killed 14 whites and attacked 7 others at random. Among the survivors was future one-term mayor of SF Art Agnos.

October 21, 1985: After serving his lite sentence for the murder of Mayor Moscone and Supervisor Harvey Milk, Dan White commits suicide in his Excelcior Dist. home. White, then one of SF's most reviled citizens took his own life after not being able to start anew in his hometown. I wonder why?

February 27, 1991: Jim Mitchell shoots his brother Artie (the Mitchell brothers of Porn Palace fame) to death in his Corte Madera home. A famous case that brought a lot of SF's dirty laundry to national attention. AS with Dan White, Jim Mitchell served a light sentence for the murder of his brother and got out after only 3 years.

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-17-150.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.154.17.150) on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 08:37 am:

My God! Carol Doda! Haven't heard that name in years, but I think you've hit on something. She later became known as "the Original Twin Peaks", which brings to mind all kinds of connections, doesn't it? Bookworm! Get on this immediately!

By Ed N (Ed_N) (ac8e3bea.ipt.aol.com - 172.142.59.234) on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 09:24 am:

Well, maybe Z didn't like porn, and BRS was in response to the opening of the Mitchell Brothers theater just hours before...

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-17-150.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.154.17.150) on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 10:26 am:

Or maybe he did, and was celebrating . . .

By Mcgarrett2000 (Mcgarrett2000) (adsl-64-160-45-82.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net - 64.160.45.82) on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 02:08 pm:

Ok, that will teach me to mention boobs while trying to start a thoughtful discussion. I have learned my lesson. By the way, my uncle saw Doda before and after the implants for what ever that is worth. Oh yeah, relevance, maybe Z did too. Who knows?

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 64.30.209.40) on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 04:58 pm:

Det.Bill,
Don't say "Twin Peaks"-it makes the New Yorkers cringe!Also,in both cases Dow Chemical was involved!

By Bookworm (Bookworm) (cb23775-b.rmvll1.il.home.com - 24.182.40.121) on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 09:13 pm:

http://www.zodiackiller.com/SuspiciousLetter.html

In this letter about Cheri Bates, the signature of Patricia Hautz, looks something like Patty Hearst"s name. Even though Patty may have been very young. Z may have known of her, because her father was a newspaper man. Z communicated with the media.

The article was "Oct. 1" or 10/1 and the letter was dated Nov. 1 or 11/1. 1967.

Patty Hearst has "heart" in her name. She was abducted on Feb. 4 or 2/04. Valentines Day is Feb. 14 or 2/14. 1974.

Holidays are a Z thing.

Compare:10/1 - 11/1 and 2/04 - 2/14. Both have a one added to the middle. The events are seven years apart. The SLA symbol was that 7 headed dragon.

Just some observations.

By Esau (Esau) (proxy1-external.scrmnt1.ca.home.com - 24.4.254.112) on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 10:46 pm:

Fine job on the timeline McGarrett. Let's not forget that the Flying Burrito Brothers played Altamont and what little tape I've seen of their performance was outstanding especially since they were able to play "6 Days On The Road" while Hells Angels were beating people on and around the stage. During the movie there is an obviously liberal white woman taking donations for the "Free Huey Newton" fund. Michael D. Brown would be especially interested in this because there we have a Panther with his very own Bebbole Brigade. It all makes sense now..........

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ntc-tb032.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.16.162) on Thursday, October 25, 2001 - 03:12 pm:

Bookworm,
the Patricia Hautz -- Patricia Hearst thing actually IS pretty interesting in light of the newspaper connection.
But what are you getting at with the date (as Patty Hearst was abducted AFTER Z), that Zodiac was a member of the SLA?

By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-237.linkline.com - 64.30.217.237) on Friday, October 26, 2001 - 12:24 am:

I got the original HautZ 11/1/67 note from a Riverside reporter that interviewed me some years ago.The Z article was published in '91,I think.I immediatly felt when I studied it over a long period of time,that this could have been a missive from Cheris killer.See my -and others past posts showing the possible connection (and content) to Zodiac,etc.

I sent a copy to Tom which he has posted on this site.I will have an analysis of the note with a probable linkage to Cheris killer and Zodiac on my Z site.

I grieved ,at the time,over the fact the envelope seemed to have been lost.Yes,DNA and a big ETC.is not possible!

By Mcgarrett2000 (Mcgarrett2000) (adsl-64-166-23-148.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net - 64.166.23.148) on Friday, October 26, 2001 - 11:27 am:

Esau, I am glad you liked the timeline there. I really feel that the SF Bay Area is a place that collects such radical to bizarre happenings (and Zodiac is a big part of this) that putting them all together would make sense.

Really, I believe that Zodiac, in addition to commiting crimes out of some sick need for a kind of sexual gratification, is also raging at society and raging at the changes going on around him. He is not part of the countercultre which would exclude him from any Manson, SLA or even Peoples' Temple affiliation, but is actually reacting to these elements in the society around him. His choice of victimizing mostly young, college students, who were seen as the catalyst for all that was wrong in America to the generation that, let's say, voted for Nixon. Of course, Z is also targeting young people because they engage in the kind of normal relationship that he never could. However, Z's rage is not a focused one as evidenced by his letters to the press and his murder of Paul Stine. He is a man raging at society and lashing out in many different directions.

If Zodiac was Arther Leigh Allen, then this profile would make even more sense. Allen was the right age -- part of the right generation. His father was an accomplished military man and Allen was a failed one but still looked up to his Dad's accomplishments. Allen was a school teacher as well -- part of the power structure and, despite his criminal activities, felt he supported that power structure. Allen would be one capable of being angry and frustrated by the intense changes going on around him in the SF Bay Area of the time.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (proxy-dover.mednet.af.mil - 199.251.67.253) on Friday, October 26, 2001 - 12:51 pm:

Kaczynski was a Berkeley professor at the time, a straightlaced, conservative asexual working in a department (math) that was considered one of the most radicalized departments on the entire campus. He railed against leftists in general and wrote about how he would like to murder certain students, policemen and communists.

By Mcgarrett2000 (Mcgarrett2000) (adsl-64-165-200-93.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net - 64.165.200.93) on Friday, October 26, 2001 - 01:07 pm:

I should have included the Kaczynski dates in this timeline as well although they are of more retroactive interest here (no one at the time was aware of Kaczynski until much later so his presence in Berkeley wasn't of local or national importance as with Patty Hearst, the Panthers or Altamont -- unless of course Ted was Z).

By Linda (Linda) (207-172-74-205.s205.tnt2.fdk.md.dialup.rcn.com - 207.172.74.205) on Friday, October 26, 2001 - 01:48 pm:

McG said: "...unless of course Ted was Z)...

Which, based on the known facts about Ted and the connections/similarities between him and Z, is an excellent possibility...

By Mcgarrett2000 (Mcgarrett2000) (adsl-64-165-200-93.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net - 64.165.200.93) on Friday, October 26, 2001 - 02:21 pm:

Honestly, I don't really buy the Ted was Z theory, except as an interesting bit of speculation. There were some similarities but even more dissimilarities. Where they both used the mails, Ted used the mail to kill while Z used them to taunt and did his killing in person. Also, TK ended up taking up such a countercultural cause (environmentalism) which leads me to rule him out as Zodiac. Hey just my opinion.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (83.philadelphia08rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 12.90.30.83) on Friday, October 26, 2001 - 06:57 pm:

Ted also used the mail to taunt, and also to make phony threats that he later retracted in the same manner and in the same newspapers used by Zodiac. And I'm sure the other theorists would die to be able to say that "their guy" mailed an anonymous letter to the San Francisco Examiner taking credit for a kill.

Now if only he had a Zodiac watch!

By Bookworm (Bookworm) (cb23775-b.rmvll1.il.home.com - 24.182.40.121) on Saturday, October 27, 2001 - 10:08 am:

Sylvie, I did some more research on the SLA and compared it to Cherie Bates:

Tania
http://www.claykeck.com/patty/conversion.htm
"I have been given the name Tania, after a comrade who fought alongside Che in Bolivia...I have learned how vicious the pig really is, and my comrades are teaching me to attack with even greater viciousness."

Che is the first letters of Cheri Bates name.

Cheri is killed on October 31, 1966.
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/8702/death.html
"Che Guevara arrives in Bolivia sometime between the second week of September and the first of November of 1966"

"Suspicious Letter" dated November 1, 1967 about an October 1st article.
October 9, 1967 Che Guevara is killed in an abandoned schoolhouse by Sgt. Terran. Sgt. Huacka kills Che companion "Willy." A CIA agent is outside the schoolhouse.

"Suspicious Letter" is signed "With hope," Compare with "little hope."
"OCTOBER 7, 1967: The last entry in Ches diary is recorded exactly eleven months since the inauguration of the guerrilla movement. The guerrillas run into an old woman herding goats. They ask her if there are soldiers in the area but are unable to get any reliable information. Scared that she will report them, they pay her 50 pesos to keep quiet. In Ches diary it is noted that he has "little hope" that she will do so. (Harris, 126; CIA Weekly Review, "The Che Guevara Diary," 12/15/67"

"Fellow Student"
Haucka similar to Hautz also. The US may have been training Bolivian troops, possibly even Terran and Haucka.

Charles Bates = C. Bates = Cheri Bates
http://www.claykeck.com/patty/aftermath.htm
"By now the Committee for the Release of Patricia Hearst ...(on committee) Charles Bates, the FBI agent who had been in charge of Patty's case." Bates was also on the Chicago Black Panther case.

Full Moon
"Next to her name on one page was scrawled "on the night of the full moon, January 7." Patricia would be kidnapped on the night of the next full moon, February 4th. "

Libraries
ALA = American Library Association
ALA = Arthur Leigh Allen

SLA = Specialized Libraries Association - Offshoot of ALA http://www.sla.org/content/SLA/History/index.cfm
SLA = Symbionese Liberation Army

By Bookworm (Bookworm) (cb23775-b.rmvll1.il.home.com - 24.182.40.121) on Saturday, October 27, 2001 - 10:39 am:

Another similarity:

Ramona High School - Cheri Bates HS

June-1967: "Rodrfguez is to use the cover name "FTlix Ramos Medina." This is the CIA agent present when Che was killed.

By Mcgarrett2000 (Mcgarrett2000) (adsl-64-165-200-59.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net - 64.165.200.59) on Saturday, October 27, 2001 - 11:52 am:

Dear Bookworm:

I love your play on the acronyms there -- especially the ones regarding libraries. I have been a library assistant in the past and I remember when the head librarian had to go to the SLA national conference and I replied, "what are you going to do there? Kidnap Patty Hearst?" It got a nervous laugh.

Now Arthur Leigh Allen and the ALA is just too much. Those damned Library Organizations. Why didn't Zodiac send a string of letters to Library Journal I wonder?

Now as for Che, he was such an icon among college students, protestors and lefty types that I don't really see any significance there between him and Cheri Bates. I mean everyone circa 1969 was reading his bio and had that poster up on the wall. That poster made a comeback in the late 1990s with college kids and the youth of America when the protest metal band Rage Against the Machine was so damned popular. Their guitarist Tom Morello had a pic of good Ol' Che on the front of his speaker cabinet.

Still I like your play on numbers, dates and words.

By Mike_D (Mike_D) (spider-mtc-td031.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.104.161) on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 06:08 am:

You might be on to something with this Cheri/Che thing!Look at the famous yearbook photog of her Tom has and thats in TimeLife Unsolved book and you'll notice theres even a physical resemblance.Just give her a beret and stick a cigar in her mouth and it could be Che!

By Bookworm (Bookworm) (cb23775-b.rmvll1.il.home.com - 24.182.40.121) on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 06:39 am:

Sylvie, Mcgarrett, and Mike,

I just noticed on the autopsy report, that Cheri was found on Terracina Street. The man who killed Che was Sgt. Terran.

On Cheri's certificate of death, her birth date is listed as February 4, the date that Patty Hearst was abducted.

Manson/SLA.
There may be a Manson Connection here too, with
the name Tania that the SLA gave to Patty. She did not chose her own name.

Tate-La Bianca - Take the name Tania out, and you have the letters te-La Bca. Not sure yet what "te" is, but the rest looks like La(ke) B(erryessa) ca(California. Could also be another lake.

By Bookworm (Bookworm) (cb23775-b.rmvll1.il.home.com - 24.182.40.121) on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 07:06 am:

I just noticed something.In the word Terracina, if you take out (Sgt) Terran, cia is left. The CIA was helping with Che's capture.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (spider-mtc-tc021.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.105.156) on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 09:32 am:

Bookworm, if Zodiac planned his actions with as much detail as you give him credit for, I seriously doubt he would have had enough time left in his day to actually kill someone.

By Mcgarrett2000 (Mcgarrett2000) (adsl-64-166-23-175.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net - 64.166.23.175) on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 10:18 am:

A friend of mine used to take any number (any number at all) and add or subtract or multiply to it in some vaguely profound sounding way until he came up with 666 just to debunk numerology and all of those illuminati conspiracy theories based on numbers.

By Bookworm (Bookworm) (cb23775-b.rmvll1.il.home.com - 24.182.40.121) on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 12:35 pm:

I agree about the amount of time-consuming detail. John Douglas, when he interviewed serial killers, most of what they told him was trash,
and couldn't be used for his profiling research. But there may be something in all of this detail, that is truth.

In the cipher of the Zodiac-Button letter, are the symbols for Libra and Aries, and as I mentioned in another thread, if you overlap the two
words you get "libraries."

On the Halloween card, Paradice and Slaves are overlapped in crossword style at the "A," also. We could use libraries and Slaves in a
crossword form. Zodiac said he was collecting slaves. "SLA Saves" can be overlapped to say Slaves. It's in the form of a cross like on the
Halloween card.

Liber means both "free" (liberty) and "book" (library.) If you take the symbols of Aries and Libra, put the Aries symbol upside down over the
symbol for Libra (Aries is a N constellation & Libra is a S constellation), it looks like a woman without a head. Use the Aries symbol correctly
over the libra, and it looks like a man, without a head.

In the "Confession Letter" it says: "I will cut off her female parts, and deposit them for the whole city to see." Libraries and banks are public.
He could be talking about her like she was a "book." Cheri worked at a bank, where you could be saving, if you made a deposit.*

When you save something, you could be said to be collecting, also, like collecting slaves for Paradice as the Halloween card infers.

"Maybe she will be the beautiful blonde...and walks down the dark alley every evening about seven." Libra is the seventh symbol of the
zodiac.

*Che was president of the National Bank of Cuba from 1959 to 1961. He also went to medical school. References are in the previous Che
post.

By Bookworm (Bookworm) (cb23775-b.rmvll1.il.home.com - 24.182.40.121) on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 12:50 pm:

P.S. Aries is the first sign of the zodiac, and Libra is the seventh. 17. There are 17 symbols across (a cross) in the 408 and 340 ciphers.

Aries = A Libra = L, or Arthur Leigh Allen. Make a crossword.
Arthur
r
i
e
s
Leigh
i
b
r
allen

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ntc-tb022.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.16.157) on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 02:02 pm:

Okay, Book, so Zodiac was CinQ?

By Bookworm (Bookworm) (cb23775-b.rmvll1.il.home.com - 24.182.40.121) on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 03:32 pm:

Sylvie, I don't know who CinQ is.

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-tl012.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.207.177) on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 08:27 pm:

Remember the black SLA leader that was raping Patty after the kidnapping all the while indoctrinating her.
True, CIN is in TerraCINa.
And hey, didn't the SLA do a bank heist in Vallejo?

By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-45.linkline.com - 64.30.217.45) on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 09:09 pm:

Boogie,
I hope that you aren't referring to the SLA in your 'slaves' comments as they weren't formed until 1973!See SLA sites on the Board.The SLA is mentioned in Zodiacs Valentine sent to the "Editor" of the Chronicle 2/14/74 :Dear Mr. Editor,
Did you know that the initials SLA spell "sla,"an old Norse word meaning "kill".
---
( a friend

This little note(which mostly seems to be the norm for Zodiacs '74 communications and is found in my book-Peterson thought it geniune) was sent just a short time after Patty Hearst was kidnapped by the SLA.

By Bookworm (Bookworm) (cb23775-b.rmvll1.il.home.com - 24.182.40.121) on Tuesday, October 30, 2001 - 07:50 am:

Could Charles Bates, FBI, have been the reason for his choice of Cheri Bates, as victim? Same name.

This is from the history of the Weathermen Underground, a violent group formed after the 1968 Democratic National Convention in Chicago. It's acronym is WU. A term used by Kaczynski in a note put in one of his bombs. WU was said to be the name of a fellow math teacher of Kaczynski's.

This may be a stretch.
August before Cheri Bates was killed. She was a college student. Were Riverside students involved with Students for a Democratic Society, the parent of many of the radical groups?

"1966 - August
SDS National Convention at Clear Lake, Iowa, calls for a "student power" strategy and re-emphasizes the need to do political work on the campuses."
http://www.claykeck.com/patty/articles/wu.htm

Clear Lake, Iowa = CLI, rearrange for CIL or Kill?
Remember that Zodiac spelled "kid" as "cid."

Clear Lake is a water element. Also, if I use the last "a" as we did in the acrostic for AriesLibra, I would have CLIA, then move the L to get CILA, CIL CIA would be overlapped.

The Weathermen site shows CIA involvement on campuses, and as we later know the capture of Che. Charles Bates was with the FBI, and involved with the Black Panther and SLA movement at some time. I can't find a general date yet of when he became involved.

October 15, 1966, the Black Panther party was officially begun.
"Huey P. Newton, Bobby Seale and David Hilliard developed a skeletal outline for this
organization. They finalize a draft of the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense 10
Point Program and Platform and founding of the Black Panther Party of Self
Defense."
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC/pacificapanthers.html#1965

By Bookworm (Bookworm) (cb23775-b.rmvll1.il.home.com - 24.182.40.121) on Wednesday, October 31, 2001 - 08:35 am:

Che, Cheri, and Cherubim

http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/8702/bio2.html
According to the above website, Che means buddy or chum. If you overlap Chum with Cheri B., and reverse the i and b, you get Cherubim.

Webster's dictionary says "Cherub"/Cherubim is: 1."any of the second order of angels, ranked just below the Seraphim. 2. a representation of one of the cherub, as in the early art, a winged angel clothed in red, or later, a chubby, rosy-faced child with wings."

I have the 1966 edition of Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, and "Cherub is on P. 241. Valentines Day is 2/14. The prior page is P. 240. 2/04 is Cheri Bates birthday, and the day Patty Hearst was kidnapped. The last two numbers of both page numbers are reversed, just as I had to do with "b" and "i" in the overlapped Chum and Cheri B.. I don't know what page Cherub would have been on in 1966.

A Cherubim is clothed in red. Desk-top poem: "all over her new/ dress./ ch well./ it was red/ anyway." Could the red dress be referring to a Cherubim?

The watch found at the scene of Cheri's murder was stopped at "12:24." On P. 1224 of my Webster's dictionary is the word "Seraph" /Seraphim: "2. any of the highest order of angels, above the Cherubim." The word is almost to the end of the page, could it have been on the same page in 1966?

In the word Seraphim is "rh," "eap" ( Edgar Allen Poe,) and "mis" (could mean miss- "They'd none of them be missed." (Kathleen John's letter) Also, Seraphim comes from the "hebrew, saraf, to burn." Kathleen John's car was burned. In Ezekiel 10, four Cherubims are represented as each having a wheel next to them (like a car.) Did Zodiac consider his victims to be Cherubims?

Finally, angels have wings. Weren't some of the Zodiac shoe prints identified as Wing-walker shoes?

By Bookworm (Bookworm) (cb23775-b.rmvll1.il.home.com - 24.182.40.121) on Wednesday, October 31, 2001 - 09:35 am:

A note: notice the similar spellings of the two word etymologies. Caribou was on P. 212, near the end of the page. ASCII for 212 is O with the ^ over it. ASCII for 122 is Z(Zodiac.)

Etymology of Cherub: "Akkadian - karubu,gracious < karabu, to bless"

Caribou - "kar e boo,(CdnFr < Algonquin), any of several large North American reindeer.

408 Cipher translation: "IT IS MORE FUN THAN KILLING WILD GAME IN THE FORREST BECAUSE MAN IS THE MOST DANGEROUE ANAMAL OF ALL TO KILL"

By Eduard (Eduard) (145.89.224.165) on Wednesday, October 31, 2001 - 09:49 am:

The name Bates has a Bat in it...

Eduard
"The Zodiac-Batman Connection".

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (c1783462-a.epotlnd1.or.home.com - 24.248.50.12) on Wednesday, October 31, 2001 - 10:17 am:

Bookworm, would you please quit getting these threads off-topic with your thinking-out-loud method of typing? This discussion is supposed to be about "The Bizarre Side of the SF Bay Area in the 1960s and 70s." Instead, it's turned into The Bizarre Side of Bookworm.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 64.30.209.40) on Wednesday, October 31, 2001 - 11:25 am:

"C her i"-her ,the note said "She" had to die-had -ha-the killer mocked her death-T her e(note her again!) will be more-W ill-he said he was insane-t his is fun!Ed you forgot the ates in Bates-that is a "loaded" word just like the word expresses something that refers to a poster(Z was an im poster).

By Bookworm (Bookworm) (cb23775-b.rmvll1.il.home.com - 24.182.40.121) on Wednesday, October 31, 2001 - 02:46 pm:

Yes, you're all right. I think I'll do some holiday cleaning. Tomorrow.

So, you don't think that the Zodiac was into entymology.

Zodiac was as bizarre as the 60's and 70's in California.

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-20-190.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.154.20.190) on Thursday, November 01, 2001 - 09:47 am:

No, Bookworm, most of don't think Zodiac was a student of insects.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 64.30.209.40) on Thursday, November 01, 2001 - 04:59 pm:

In- sect Z was a member of a sect or cult!Taking care of biz.Nature abhors an extreme and always tries to establish balance and moderation, and so it is with the Zodiac case which is a strange case, but never the less requires moderation without ignoring the very unusual elements that make up the case.It's a balancing act to be sure and requires wisdom without far out extremes.

By William Baker (Bill_Baker) (1cust183.tnt1.santa-maria.ca.da.uu.net - 63.28.219.183) on Thursday, November 01, 2001 - 10:31 pm:

Bookworm, try etymology. Or, perhaps, etiology, which may provide some insight into your problem.

By Bookworm (Bookworm) (cb23775-b.rmvll1.il.home.com - 24.182.40.121) on Friday, November 02, 2001 - 06:30 am:

Speaking of insects, there is a movie that came out in January of 1996, called Angels and Insects. The book is by A S Byatt. I would never watch the movie again, incest, etc.(not for kids.)

At the end they play a card game, like Scrabble with cards, passing cards they don't use to each other. The word "insect" is made, passed to the woman, which she passed back to the man as "incest."(they were playing their own little game)

Word games have been going on for a long time. Lewis Carroll used to play word games with his writing.

Doesn't hurt to explore.

By Bookworm (Bookworm) (cb23775-b.rmvll1.il.home.com - 24.182.40.121) on Friday, November 02, 2001 - 06:41 am:

I thought the angels would fit with "Paradice." The scripture passage was in the dictionary.

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-17-103.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.154.17.103) on Friday, November 02, 2001 - 07:16 am:

Bookworm:

ARISTOPHANES played word games. Freaking OGG the AUSTRALOPITHECUS played word games. That doesn't mean it adds anything to the discussion.

Let's go home, guys. There isn't the rope on the planet to give Bookworm enough to hang himself.

By Mcgarrett2000 (Mcgarrett2000) (adsl-64-165-199-54.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net - 64.165.199.54) on Saturday, November 03, 2001 - 10:53 am:

Hey does anybody have anything else to post on the SF Bay Area during the time of Zodiac here? Actually, I should go research and post some more about Harvey Milk, the Castro district and the Gay Rights movement here -- another social upheival (and a sexually loaded one at that) that could have been an influence on Z.

By Esau (Esau) (proxy1-external.scrmnt1.ca.home.com - 24.4.254.112) on Saturday, November 03, 2001 - 02:30 pm:

One thing that may be relevant is that during 1968-1970 Haight Ashbury started attracting a very satanic element. People associate the 60's with peace and love but that was only for a short time. Anton La Vey (as harmless an actor as he was), The Process and a lot of rogue satanists were lurking about the Haight at that time. I used to hang out there in the late 70's and there was a strong cult/weirdo element all over the Haight. Some cult dudes tried to get my girlfriend to go with them at the BART station back in 1978 but left her alone when I got back from buying our tickets.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-217.linkline.com - 64.30.217.217) on Saturday, November 03, 2001 - 03:07 pm:

Mcgarrett,
The one of the most significant events to me(not that there weren't others)was the Zebra killings; when a group of black Muslims went on a killing spree killing ,brutally,several white people.

Enter Zodiac missive .Dated 1/29/74 and now commonly called the "Exorcist" note seemed to be the catalyst that caused Zodiac to break his self imposed silencesince 3/22/71.Dave Toschi even noted this factor when he said in referring to the communication and the reason Z wrote was that he would be willing to "bet that it'll turn out to be all the fuss(black Muslim killings)from Monday night."Monday the 28th was when the slaughter-and that's what it was-began so the leading Inspector does take note of the tie in or link and motive for Zodiac's note at this time after such a long silence.I believe you have 1973 as the date or year of the attacks,but the L.A. Times 1/30/74 states :"S.F. Police START Vast Search for Killers of 4."

Since your theme is what events may have had an influence on Zodiac I would say as far as getting him to write or smoking him out of cover it would be the black Muslim uprising.


The other event was when the black led SLA kidnapped Patti Hearst just a few days before Valentines Day as this was the first surfacing-in my view-by Zodiac since his last 3/22/71 message.In this note or "Valentine"(Z calls himself "a friend") as it has been called ,a direct mention of the SLA is found.See my posts on this little known missive.I placed it in my book with commentary.

By Mcgarrett2000 (Mcgarrett2000) (adsl-64-165-200-231.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net - 64.165.200.231) on Saturday, November 03, 2001 - 08:23 pm:

Howard, I do think you have something here in relation to both the Zebra Killings, the SLA and Z's letter writing. My theory on this is quite simple. The Zodiac was a media junkie and attention hound and he was actually jealous of the attention that his papers of choice, the EX and Chron were now showing towards other criminals. Sure Z had stayed out of the limelight, but the limelight was important to him and he needed to prove that he could still be in it. He wanted to horn in on the SLA's action so to speak. Also, check the "Badlands" letter. I really believe that Z was upset because Hollywood had yet to make a major motion picture about him.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-118.linkline.com - 64.30.217.118) on Sunday, November 04, 2001 - 01:11 am:

Mcgarrett,
Since 1971 there were a great many horrendous crimes and criminals mentioned in the papers and, of course, the Chronicle.

In both cases that I present as very motivating factors for the rising or surfacing of Zodiac were extreme events led by blacks committing mayhem and or kidnapping against white/s.

Now,when we give even a cursory look at the '74 Z grouping of notes/letters and their content as compared to the '69-71 postcards/letters there is a decided tone and content that is markedly different.If it is as you say, we would expect -especially after such a long silence-the same kind of communications as in the first group of missives that really drew attention to him and his killings.Using his moniker Zodiac for example.Instead we have almost a reluctance to give that designation.

There is much more I could say ,but I think just pointing out the aforementioned facts will suffice.I give my beliefs and reasons for Zodiacs unusual change in manifesting his persona in my book.See my past posts and the other posters and their fine views.

Of course, I would commend your views for all to consider as you show purposeful thinking in this regard.The worst thing we can do is not be flexible in this complex case.Thanks.

By Mcgarrett2000 (Mcgarrett2000) (adsl-64-165-200-244.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net - 64.165.200.244) on Sunday, November 04, 2001 - 08:02 am:

Howard you do have a point about the Zodiac's somewhat restrained tone in his 1974 missives. I interpreted it as him just being coy or even sarcastic, but who really knows on this one. We just have some short notes here and yes, the Chron has always been a fine bastion of yellow sensationalist journalism so they probably did run enough crime stories back then. I just felt that the level of sensationalism surrounding the Patty Hearst case may have goaded his letters. After all, the SLA was the biggest story to hit the bay since Z.

By Mcgarrett2000 (Mcgarrett2000) (trigger.library.ucsf.edu - 128.218.15.86) on Thursday, January 17, 2002 - 09:22 am:

I am really surprised that this board isn't a little more lit up with the SLA story right now but here it is. After all of these years these SLA fugitives who terrorized Calif. in the 1970s, taunted the press, and used bombs have now been brought to justice. Not only are there certain similarities to to Zodiac here (and no I am not suggesting that Zodiac was a member of the SLA), but also this case really gives you a good look at the inadequacies of California Criminal Justice of the period that both Z and the SLA were at large in that it has taken this long to find these fugitives and arrest them. Here is the Chron story...
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/01/17/MN42850.DTL

You probably have to copy and paste this thing into your browser 'cause I am too lazy to deal with html tags right now.

In ways, this case bears more parallells to Z than Green River Killer because of the time period and the area. What does the board think???

By Esau (Esau) (12-246-187-137.client.attbi.com - 12.246.187.137) on Thursday, January 17, 2002 - 03:04 pm:

Good point McGarrett. Let's not forget about the letter received Feb 14,1974 by the Chronicle, post marked from San Rafael. Zodiac makes a reference to the SLA. I didn't find the letter on Tom's site but here's a link to Crime Library that gives credit to Jake for their posting of the text of the letter.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/zodiac/zodiac/8.htm

By Esau (Esau) (12-246-187-137.client.attbi.com - 12.246.187.137) on Thursday, January 17, 2002 - 03:05 pm:

The text of the SLA letter is about half way down the page.

By Mcgarrett2000 (Mcgarrett2000) (trigger.library.ucsf.edu - 128.218.15.86) on Thursday, January 17, 2002 - 04:20 pm:

I find the similarities here to be facinating with the SLA's use of car bombs. There must have been something in the Hetch Hetchy around that time (the reservoir that serves SF) or at least East Bay Mud (the Oakland water company).

Still, the lesson to be learned for Zodiac investigators is how much the in fighting between jurisdictions in Calif. can hamper investigation and prosecution. In the case of these SLA members, the Calif. Dept. Of Justice and various local Law enforcement agencies knew who these people were, have an insider witness (Patti Hearst), and many of them were still in Calif. and they are only now being arrested. In the case of Zodiac, we don't have nearly as much info, but the same forces that kept the SLA from prosecution (in fighting between police agencies) are the same ones that have hampered the search for Zodiac.

You really wonder, in the case of Arthur Leigh Allen, if NAPA, SF, and Valejo had all gotten together on this if the Z identity would have been solved or (at the very least) if Allen would have been concretely cleared of these crimes in a far more persuasive manner than any offered by law enforcement now. As it stands , we may never really know because of the shoddiness of the original investigation.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (pdx-cfi-90.navi.net - 208.211.19.90) on Thursday, January 17, 2002 - 04:20 pm:

Just to be topical, I'll be adding the SLA letter in my next update...even though it was never authenticated.

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-th043.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.213.63) on Thursday, January 17, 2002 - 09:33 pm:

Hmmm...maybe Z is James Kilgore.

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-th043.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.213.63) on Thursday, January 17, 2002 - 10:41 pm:

Coincidentally, I just read an old Times article (pre Ted K's arrest)that reported James Kilgore was actually the prime suspect as the Unabomber.

By Eduard (Eduard) (erasmuscollege.nl - 194.109.60.77) on Friday, January 18, 2002 - 02:14 am:

Sylvie,

In the past there was a guy named Kenny Kilgore on this MB saying that his stepdad could have been the Zodiac.

Eduard

By Mcgarrett2000 (Mcgarrett2000) (trigger.library.ucsf.edu - 128.218.15.86) on Friday, January 18, 2002 - 11:35 am:

Yes the FBI, in their profiling of the UNABOMBER did look into the old SLA members. It is kind of akin to the Justice Dept. looking at Ted K. as a Zodiac Suspect after Kaczinsky was caught.

By Mcgarrett2000 (Mcgarrett2000) (trigger.library.ucsf.edu - 128.218.15.86) on Friday, January 18, 2002 - 11:45 am:

Olson sentenced... Here is the story on the stiff sentence received by Sara Olson...
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2002/01/18/state1358EST0073.DTL

By Esau (Esau) (12-246-187-137.client.attbi.com - 12.246.187.137) on Saturday, January 19, 2002 - 12:19 am:

I live in Sacramento and Jon, the son of victim Myrna Opsahl has been absolutely relentless in pressuring our local DA by keeping this case in the press. This case has been in the Sacramento Bee now and then over the years but in the last several months Jon's been on DA Jan Scully to file charges and he's done most of this through the Sacramento Bee and The Sacramento News and Review. Jon's fight to keep the pressure on the DA was the front page feature on last week's edition of the Sacramento News and Review. If you want to read about it click on: http://www.newsreview.com/issues/sacto/2002-01-10/toc.asp. Then click on "Cover Story- Obstruction of Justice". It's a good example of getting results via political pressure.
I was truly heartbroken by the pleas of Soliah's daughter. I only wish that Jon and his siblings could have plead for their mother's life.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 64.30.209.40) on Monday, January 21, 2002 - 07:56 pm:

Zodiac certainly read and /or heard about the SLA and the recent kidnapping of Patty Hearst which,no doubt, caused Z to write:
Dear Mr.Editor:Did you know that the initials SLA spell 'sla',an old Norse word[the ABA and other supremist groups were into Norse/Celtic/Aryan-Nordic litrature,etc.] word meaning to "kill"[this shows Z's inclination for hidden 'meanings',etc.]-a friend"(it was Valentines Day-another holiday symbol for Z). 2/14/74

Z surfaced again on 1/29/74 with the Excorcist "note"due to more radicals-the black Muslims and their S.F. killing spree of whites.

By Mcgarrett2000 (Mcgarrett2000) (adsl-64-166-22-35.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net - 64.166.22.35) on Tuesday, January 22, 2002 - 05:09 pm:

Thanks for posting that article Esau. This whole thing really just highlights what anyone who cares about finding an end to the Z case is up against in regards to Calif. justice.

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-wg061.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.196.46) on Wednesday, January 23, 2002 - 04:38 pm:

When I suggested before that James Kilgore might actually be Z, I was naturally just kidding. What piked my interest to find out more about Kilgore was the fact that investigators initially were quite sure he was the Unabomber. Well since Unabomber and Z obviously have a good deal in common, the next logical step is to compare Kilgore with Zodiac. It actually is not all that impossible. There are some points of interest.
Kilgore was an explosives expert. He went to college in Santa Barbara but returned to his family home in San Rafael frequently and later full time. He is of Irish descent with reddish hair. Despite the mug shots he always wears glasses except (according to Patty H.) when he wants to disguise himself. He hated cops. He disappeared definitively in 1978. He had the A.K.A> "Robin", another was "Ian" (decidedly English). He enjoyed the theatre scene in S.F., and a few other things.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 64.30.209.40) on Wednesday, January 23, 2002 - 05:07 pm:

Sylvie,
I got two emails from his son Kinney last year with a picture of his father.He told me we all need to give up on all of the suspects as his father is Zodiac!He indicated the story would be out soon.It's been quite awhile and he has not returned my messages.

By Ryan Olesin (Ryan) (209.5.227.81) on Wednesday, January 23, 2002 - 05:42 pm:

Howard, I don't think James Kilgore is the stepdad of the Kenny Kilgore that used to post on here who said his stepdad is the Zodiac. His stepdad's name was Jack. On top of that, Kenny Kilgore is not his real name, I'm not sure why he uses that name.

Kenny emailed me as well and I have some pictures and a sample of his stepdad's handwriting. One photo resemble's the Sonoma composite, another resembles the Stine composite. I was going to put him on my suspects page but haven't got around to doing that yet.

http://www.olesin.50megs.com/zodiac/

By Oddball (Oddball) (slip-32-103-46-124.al.us.prserv.net - 32.103.46.124) on Wednesday, January 23, 2002 - 07:12 pm:

Very interesting, Ryan! I'd like to see those photos.

By Esau (Esau) (12-246-187-137.client.attbi.com - 12.246.187.137) on Wednesday, January 23, 2002 - 11:05 pm:

About the Somoma composite..... Why would Sonoma have a Zodiac composite. I haven't been able to find any info on that.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-63-186.client.attbi.com - 12.224.63.186) on Wednesday, January 23, 2002 - 11:25 pm:

An investigator from the Sonoma County Sheriff's Department sketched his impression of Zodiac based on the SFPD sketch. That's all there is to it...

By Ed N (Ed_N) (acb5174c.ipt.aol.com - 172.181.23.76) on Wednesday, January 23, 2002 - 11:56 pm:

Let's see... an artist's impression of an artist's impression of a suspect seen by three witnesses under duress at a distance of 50 feet at night in the fog... hmmm, I'm sure it looks exactly like Z!

By Oddball (Oddball) (slip-32-103-46-144.al.us.prserv.net - 32.103.46.144) on Thursday, January 24, 2002 - 01:05 am:

Oh, I know not to take too much stock in the composite sketches...I just find them intriguing.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 64.30.209.40) on Thursday, January 24, 2002 - 03:56 pm:

Ryan,
I thought "Jack" can be used for John('Jack' Kennedy) or James.All of Kinneys old posts are deleted so his statements can't be recounted.Either way his 'dad' or Kilgore is not a solid match to Zodiac!

By Ryan Olesin (Ryan) (d150-160-190.home.cgocable.net - 24.150.160.190) on Thursday, January 24, 2002 - 04:11 pm:

I'm not sure if his last name is Kilgore, but I know his first name is not Kenny so I figured its possible the last name is also an alias so any relation to J. Kilgore was just coincidence.

By Mcgarrett2000 (Mcgarrett2000) (trigger.library.ucsf.edu - 128.218.15.86) on Friday, January 25, 2002 - 12:03 pm:

Here's another question...
Kilgore and the SLA have been suspected for a rash of bombings of public institutions in Northern Calif. in the mid-1970s but there has never been any proof to conclusively link them to the crimes. Could any of those bombings have actually been perpetrated by Zodiac making good on his earlier threats in stealth mode? Let's say that Z and Killgore ARE NOT one and the same here. This is just spec here. We have an interesting cast of characters coming together here with this mystery bombing issue with Ted K, Killgore and Zodiac.

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ntc-tb023.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.16.158) on Friday, January 25, 2002 - 06:29 pm:

I agree. Great thread. The setting of the whole scene is of utmost importance. The central cast of characters were all there.
Even I was there(though just a little kid), living right near the corner of Haight and Ashbury, it was an electric time.
No doubt the paths of the major suspects crossed in some way or another.

By Esau (Esau) (12-246-187-137.client.attbi.com - 12.246.187.137) on Sunday, January 27, 2002 - 12:20 am:

For more SLA news from Sacramento News And Review click on http://www.newsreview.com/issues/sacto/2002-01-24/cover.asp
to read more about Kathleen Ann Soliah aka "Misunderstood Soccer Mom", aka Sara Jane Olson.

By Mcgarrett2000 (Mcgarrett2000) (adsl-64-168-24-167.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net - 64.168.24.167) on Sunday, January 27, 2002 - 11:55 pm:

Thanks for the compliment on the thread Sylvie. When I started this thread I knew that it would gather steam sooner or later. I mean think of all of the weird stuff that happened in the Bay Area in the 1960s and 70s and so much of it seems connected somehow. I don't really believe that they are necessarily connected or are part of some conspiracy, but the intersections are interesting nonetheless. I mean, Zodiac, SLA and Ted K all employ (or at least threaten to) terror bombing. You have the Manson Family AND the Peoples' Temple here. Then you have all of the CIA mind control allegations that not only touch on Jonestown but also the Dan White thing. Maybe it is all somehow connected, but I always feel the need to remember that, as people, we like Strange, strange, strange.

By Hiho (Hiho) (spider-mtc-ti073.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.101.183) on Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 10:02 am:

I think one significant event was omitted from the above threads not implying it was related but occurred right in the timeline of the Zodiac murders. The assassination of RFK in June of 1968 Ambassador Hotel and the many interesting theories on that case.

By Mcgarrett2000 (Mcgarrett2000) (adsl-64-166-23-181.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net - 64.166.23.181) on Saturday, February 02, 2002 - 10:28 am:

The RFK Assasination happened in LA and not the Bay Area, but then again I did put in the Manson stuff. Of course Manson got turned on to hippy culture while he was in the Haight so there's the SF connection. Still, the Kennedy Assination is another weird California happening of those times.

Back to Jonestown, you can read about the CIA mind control theories here...
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial4/jonestown/5.htm

It also ties Jonestown into the Dan White thing.

By Mcgarrett2000 (Mcgarrett2000) (adsl-64-166-23-181.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net - 64.166.23.181) on Saturday, February 02, 2002 - 10:32 am:

Another reason for including Manson is that Howard Davis gets more and more persuasive about Bruce Davis being a Z suspect the more I read his site. If Davis is Z, how much more of a connection between Z and Charley does anyone need?

By Hiho (Hiho) (spider-ntc-tc021.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.17.26) on Tuesday, February 05, 2002 - 02:06 pm:

CIA mind control is one of the theories of the RFK assassination. It's been documented that Sirhan Sirhan was at the racing stables in Pleasanton,CA.in May of 1968.On June6,1968 RFK was assassinated at the Ambassador Hotel,Los Angeles. On June 7th at 9:10pm who and what was the Vallejo Police department investigating regarding the shooting of RFK? Exhibit 25,page 334 of the book "The Senator Must Die" written by Robert Morrow former CIA employee.

By Tom Stout (Tom_Stout) (dialup-166.90.34.229.dial1.sanfrancisco1.level3.net - 166.90.34.229) on Sunday, December 15, 2002 - 06:31 am:

Hello from San Francisco!
What an interesting thread for me! I was born and raised in Oakland during the 60's and 70's and now live in San Francisco.
Zodiac had a lot of competition in his day around here!
60 miles south of S.F. is Murderville USA, better know as Santa Cruz,Ca.
In Z's hey day, Santa Cruz had two serial and one mass killer operating at the same time!
Edmund Kemper a six foot, 9 inch monster known as the "coed killer" was littering the Santa Cruz hills with bodyparts of hitch hikers. He finally cut his mother's head off and raped her dead body. Does it get any worse?
At the same time, Herbert Mullin claimed multiple random victims because he heard voices commanding him to kill people to prevent earthquakes!
If that wasn't enough, mass killer John Fraizer shot to death an entire family and their guest for some vauge psychotic reason.
Also, in the early 1980's David Carpenter AKA The "Trailside killer" was caught killing people at random on Mt. Tamalpias in Marin County.
In fact, many people at the time thought Carpenter was the Zodiac. His MO was simlar to Z and he looks like the composite drawing.
I guess he has been ruled out as Z.
Also, the Oakland Raiders terrorized their visiting teams inside the Oakland coliseum during this time!
Go Raiders!
Tom S

By Tom Stout (Tom_Stout) (dialup-166.90.33.120.dial1.sanfrancisco1.level3.net - 166.90.33.120) on Sunday, December 15, 2002 - 07:48 am:

That's "vague" not "vauge" psychotic reason.

By Mike Kelleher (Mike_Kelleher) (12-210-225-42.client.attbi.com - 12.210.225.42) on Sunday, December 15, 2002 - 08:03 am:

Tom wrote: "Zodiac had a lot of competition in his day around here!"

That is SO true. I was born in the 1940s (don't laugh) in SF and lived there most of my adult life. I went to school with Herb Mullin for 8 years and considered him one of my good friends. Later, after he went on his rampage down in Santa Cruz, his crimes changed the course of my life. I do what I do today because of folks like Mullin, Kemper, et. al., and because of my experiences in SF during those decades.

"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times." It was a time that none of us who lived through it will ever forget.

Mike
crimescribe.com

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-139-118.client.attbi.com - 12.224.139.118) on Sunday, December 15, 2002 - 05:53 pm:

Mike, sounds almost like the Ann Rule-Ted Bundy situation.

I wonder what the total number of unsolved murders in California during that time is?

By Mike Kelleher (Mike_Kelleher) (12-210-225-42.client.attbi.com - 12.210.225.42) on Sunday, December 15, 2002 - 06:08 pm:

Hi Tom:

Yeah, it was a strange situation. We parted after the 8th grade and I never saw Herb again. We went to different high schools. Nevertheless, a few years later, I was shocked at what happened. Since I knew Herb and his family, I followed the whole situation as closely as possible, including his trial and subsequent events. To this day it bothers me, even though I somewhat understand what drove Mullin to the brink.

As to the number of unsolved murders out here, I have no specific idea. My guess (fairly well informed) is that it is quite large and probably mostly unrecognized in public. As you know, the law enforcement communities in these parts can often be very, very secretive and unyielding. I'm sure there are a number of Northern California serial killers who moved on, died, whatever, without ever being recognized for what they were. The SRH murders are a classic example.

Mike
crimescribe.com

(sorry if I went way off-topic here)

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-23-103.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.154.23.103) on Sunday, December 15, 2002 - 08:26 pm:

Tom Stout wrote:
"Zodiac had a lot of competition in his day around here!"
Not any more.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (180.philadelphia05rh.16.pa.dial-access.att.net - 12.90.25.180) on Sunday, December 15, 2002 - 10:11 pm:

I get the impression that Zodiac didn't like the competition. I'm still convinced that the LB scenario was a response to the Manson incident, and we have various inferences in the letters that point to the Snoozy/Furlong murders, the January, 1970 bombing of the park police station, the Robert Salem murder and even (perhaps) the SLA incidents.

By Tom Stout (Tom_Stout) (dialup-209.247.55.250.dial1.sanfrancisco1.level3.net - 209.247.55.250) on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 09:01 am:

But wait!
There was even MORE murder and mayhem that was pushing poor Zodiac down the top 40 of infamy!
Let's not forget about...
San Francisco's Golden Dragon restaurant massacre by Chinese gangs.
Also, after the manslaughter verdict was handed down in the Dan White assasinations, the ensuing RIOT was a big story of itself!

BTW: Mcgarrett 2000, Great thread!
I believe Charles Manson lived on Cole street which intersects with Haight st in S.F. but who's counting?

By Tom Stout (Tom_Stout) (dialup-209.247.55.250.dial1.sanfrancisco1.level3.net - 209.247.55.250) on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 09:54 am:

Peter H wrote: "Not any more"
The following is why I think Peter is correct.
Growing up here at that time, I was exposed to a lot. Mcgarrett 2000 mentions the Hell's Angels.
I lived 2 blocks from Sonny Barger's Oakland club house. I'll always remember their sign on the front door, "Enter at your own risk!" Their building was the only one in the "hood" without graffiti. A vivid childhood memory of mine is when Martin Luther King was assasinated. I was 4 years old. The hood rioted! The Hell's Angels came out in a show of force to restore order. Can you imagine? The Hell's Angels were restoring order! I witnessed all this from my front room window as my Father guarded our front door with a shotgun!
I lived through the Black Panther movement, the SLA, Zebra killers, Coed killer, Trailside killer and so on...
I can tell you all that as a child, nothing scared me more than Zodiac.

By Ed N. (Ed_N) (acac5c73.ipt.aol.com - 172.172.92.115) on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 11:16 am:

The Manson Family lived at 636 Cole St. from late March/early April to July 1967. Paul Stine lived across the street and three doors down at 615 Cole, apartment 10, in 1965-66, and possibly part of 1967; he was at 1842 Fell St. by late 1967. Small world, especially if Howard's Bruce Davis/Z theory is correct.

By Alan Cabal (Alan_Cabal) (cache-mtc-ak04.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.96.201) on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 12:55 pm:

According to Ed Sanders, The Process had a connection with a commune at 407 Cole St. in SF in 1967 through a fellow named Victor Wild, aka "Brother Ely." They were also in Nassau in the summer of 1966. Anybody know when it was that Darlene Ferrin went there?