Another New Orleans Coincidence


Zodiackiller.com Message Board: General Zodiac Discussion: Another New Orleans Coincidence

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-186-54.client.attbi.com - 12.224.186.54) on Sunday, April 21, 2002 - 09:47 pm:

In addition to the Bob Lord case (see my 4-3-02 update at The News Center), here is another interesting coincidence involving New Orleans:

New Orleans Times Picayune of March 17, 1967:
SMALL ARSENAL IS FOUND AT AVONDALE MAN'S HOME;
SEVEN HOMEMADE BOMBS AMONG ARTICLES


A small arsenal was found Thursday by members
of the Jeffersob Parish Narcotics Squad at the
home of an Avondale man arrested at 11:25 PM
Wednesday in Bridge City on charges of carrying
a concealed weapon, forging prescriptions and
possessing narcotics.

Narcotices squad officers armed with a search
warrant entered the eight-room brick home of
Emile [Albert] Fos, 37, 161 Cambay dr., Avondale,
Thursday morning and made the discovery.

Detective George Warren said officers found
seven home-made fragmentation bombs; a "live"
hand grenade in a box; two poison darts;
approximately 1,000 barbituate pills, commonly
known as "goof balls"; 12 rifles, six pistols;
and numerous Maltese crosses and other
paraphernalia, including a dagger.

As for the poison darts, Det. Warren quoted
Fos as saying, "I hunt the most dangerous game."

Officers said a sign with the word "verboten"
. . and a Third Reich Swastika were affixed to
the door of the room in which the arsenal was
found.

Jefferson Parish Narcotics Squad Commander
Lt. Donald Reed, who is supervising the
investigation, said that when Fos was arrested,
three loaded rifles, a shotgun, a German luger,
several boxes of ammunition and a quantity of
drugs were found in his car.

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-17-91.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.154.17.91) on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 06:41 am:

Coincidence? After the Bob Lord evidence, how can you call this "coincidence"? This nails it for me: there is a definite New Orleans connection here, and I think we all know what it is: Allen shot Kennedy from the grassy knoll. What are the odds that a drug crazed neo-Nazi gun nut from deep in the bayou would be busted with not one but BOTH of the key signature pieces connecting Allen and Z: home-made frag bombs AND "a German luger".

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (199.251.68.84) on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 06:47 am:

He either is or he isn't, therefore there's a fifty-fifty chance.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-186-54.client.attbi.com - 12.224.186.54) on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 10:13 am:

Peter, why are you making an ass of yourself?

1) A killer in New Orleans used a cross-circle symbol as a signature, just as Zodiac later did.

(Naah, you're right, Peter: why would that interest anyone visiting this site? Besides, it's oh-so common for a murderer to sign a note using a symbol for a signature...especially a cross-circle! Happens all the time! D-oh!)

2) A criminal in New Orleans used the phrase "most dangerous game" just 28 months before Zodiac sent the press his twist on that phrase.

(Again, Peter is right. Criminals always spout that phrase!)

I never said I thought Zodiac was the responsible party in these events.

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-18-223.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.154.18.223) on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 12:01 pm:

Oh, come on ,Tom, just trying to inject a little fun where I see a tendency to take certain things way too seriously. Connell's story (and the 1932 movie, along with a zillion or so more or less remakes, knock-offs and ripoffs) aren't exactly trivia of the occult. It won the O. Henry award in 1927 and has has been high school English fodder for about 70 years. There are about a dozen websites with teaching guides on the thing. A wacko like Fos making reference to it is about as remarkable as Timothy McVeigh quoting "Invictus".

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (199.251.68.84) on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 12:32 pm:

In fact, "Most Dangerous Game" is such a well-known story that they even ran a version of it on "Gilligan's Island." It's standard in the well-known Norton Anthology of Literature where, since at least the late sixties (and probably before) it's been used to illustrate the "escapist" genre of prose fiction.

The crossed-circle, too, is actually quite a common motif, if it's being used in the sense of a gunsight.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-186-54.client.attbi.com - 12.224.186.54) on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 01:20 pm:

Doug, I'd be very interested if anyone can name an example (outside of the Zodiac and the New Orleans cases) of the cross-circle being used as a killer's signature, and the "most dangerous game" phrasing being used by a criminal referring to killing people.

Let's really see just how common this is.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 64.30.209.40) on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 01:30 pm:

"Zodiac" was used with the cross/circle symbol or the killer used it to stand alone for his name.The Z was probably used only twice.The Riverside notes had the Z (see my zodiacmurders.com for a Z like note typed in all caps)as did the '70 Halloween card-along with another strange symbol.All of this,as the given name/symbol,is very rare.
I note the Lord case was in the South and with a San Diego connection.These areas have come up before.See posts for SD and possible Z Southern conections.If the young Zodiac read about the Lord crime(which could have proven to be a future influence on him) in some detective magazine and/or article,then it could be another mind stacker in his eventual choice of symbols. I am in touch with a NO research librarian that can look up the Lord case,but needs a date.

By Judy (Judy) (0-1pool48-225.nas38.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net - 65.129.48.225) on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 02:50 pm:

I have always thought that the symbol in the Riverside communications looks just like the number 32, which of course, was the address of
ALA.

Judy

By Mike_D (Mike_D) (134.241.44.167) on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 04:04 pm:

Given the wandering lifestyle of some serial killers I don't see why there couldn't be a connection...

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 64.30.209.40) on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 04:33 pm:

Judy,
Morrell saw it as a Z.Actually,Esau made a great discovery in the '67 note to the late Joseph Bates.See posts.He sees a possible'covert'or hidden Z at the end of the note.Check it out.If Esaus observation is correct ,then it the 'clearest' Z on the three notes!A contradiction,I know,but Z was a living contradiction in so many ways.

By Judy (Judy) (0-1pool48-225.nas38.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net - 65.129.48.225) on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 05:01 pm:

Howard,
You say two-mate-o, I say toe-matt-o... I think I
do remember reading that post-but I think the
symbol I am speaking of looks clearly like
the number 32. Yes, I do lean very strongly toward the idea that whoever the Zodiac is-he did
kill Ms. Bates. And, it would be very much in the
character of ALA to incriminate himself with a clue to his identity--knowing, of course, he was
much too smart to ever get caught.

Judy

By Eduard (Eduard) (hmm-dca-ap01-d13-013.dial.freesurf.nl - 62.100.46.13) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 05:08 am:

Hey Tom,

Remember the New York Zodiac killer? He used the crosshair symbol as well!

Eduard

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (199.251.68.84) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 05:25 am:

The New York Zodiac took his idea from our Zodiac, so that's not really the best example. My point was that the crossed circle, if it's meant to represent a gunsight (and not something else) is a fairly trite piece of symbolism for anyone needing a murder-related symbol--of course, only a minuscule percentage of killers ever go in for that kind of thing, so it's hard to find good exemplars. But see http://www.weitzcoleman.com/contractkillerlg.jpeg for a small idea of what I'm getting at.

By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p145.as1.clonmel1.eircom.net - 159.134.150.145) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 07:02 am:

As we are speculating about similar types of killers,whose MO and signature are close to that of Zodiac,I found the case of one Walter Leroy Moody very interesting.Albeit this is a case from the other side of the USA(Georgia I think).This guy went on to kill a judge amother others,in the late 80's.He used pipe bombs which were meticulously prepared. His "packages" all contained the same type of stamp that were adhered upsidedown.He sent typed notes to various agencies ( coincidentally from a typewriter he purchased from a guy in a place called Enterprise).He was ultimately caught because of a previous conviction he had from back in 1972,when a pipe bomb he was experimenting with injured his wife.Described as someone who "lived on the fringes of society, and blamed society for all his woe's".
Doug,I assume you would be very familiar with this case given the similarities to TK

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (247.philadelphia05rh.16.pa.dial-access.att.net - 12.90.25.247) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 09:56 am:

Lapumo, I was indeed familiar with the case. These killers form a particular type whose common denominator is disaffection and a desire to lash out against a class of victims that represent their disaffections. I include Zodiac and Kaczynski among them.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-186-54.client.attbi.com - 12.224.186.54) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 12:04 pm:

Eduard, didn't you retire?

Anyway, if you'll notice my main page features a cross-circle symbol. Of course, since I designed this site long after the Zodiac retired, it doesn't count.

Doug understands what I'm getting it, but I'm disappointed more people haven't caught on.

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-wo074.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.200.54) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 01:07 pm:

Tom,
at the beginning of the thread you post on a coincidence with the "dangerous game" aspect, though since that occurred in 1967 it is doubtful is has anything to do with the Z symbol on the Bob Lord note as you seem to imply in your post of 4-22 (1:20 p.m.). I agree with Doug that "The Dangerous Game" is all over the place, I taught it myself in an ESL class as good conversation material.
The symbol is seemingly somewhat rampamt itself. Case in point: recently I went to the Olive Garden to meet a friend, upon entering the parking lot a saw a trio of youths that looked exactly like they jumped out of the film "A Clockwork Orange". These sociopaths were (in broad daylight) spraying graffiti on the parking lot wall, and the "artwork" was several giant Z symbols. They obviously had a great affection for this symbol and though I wanted to inquire as to what meaning this symbol held for them in particular, I thought better of it.
Point being -- apparently this symbol attracts a certain number of criminal minds. Who knows why.

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-wo074.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.200.54) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 01:10 pm:

P.S.: These guys could have been real Z fans, but I highly doubt it.

By Judy (Judy) (0-1pool28-191.nas33.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net - 65.129.28.191) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 01:21 pm:

Tom, perhaps you could elaborate so the rest of us
could catch on.

Judy

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-186-54.client.attbi.com - 12.224.186.54) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 01:36 pm:

I'm not saying the Bob Lord note has anything to do with the guy from the 1967 newspaper article!

Yes, I know the cross-circle symbol has other meanings aside for being the Zodiac's signature. Yes, I know The Most Dangerous Game is a quite popular novel/movie.

My point is that long before the Zodiac surfaced, a killer in New Orleans used the cross-circle symbol as a signature on a taunting note. The symbol may not be uncommon, but to my knowledge, using it in that way has only been done by two people: the New Orleans killer and the Zodiac.

Ditto for references to The Most Dangerous Game. Yes, it's a well-known piece of work. However, I know of only two people who actually used those quotes in blatant reference to their own crimes: the New Orleans loon, and the Zodiac.

Obviously, the common denominator in these two cases is New Orleans.

Unless someone can actually come up with other cases prior to 1969 where the cross-circle symbol and/or TMDG references were used, the argument that it's "not really unusual" goes out the window, and we are left with the possibility that the Zodiac might have been influenced by these New Orleans cases.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 64.30.209.40) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 02:10 pm:

Good post Tom!

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-40-163.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.154.40.163) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 04:27 pm:

Tm: the New Orleans loon was busted for possession. The story didn't say anything about the most dangerous game having anything to do with "his own crimes". His own fantasies, maybe, but there doesn't seem to be any homicide, or even assault among the charges. How many readers of Connell's storie do you suppose might have similar fantasies? As for the cross circle, Doug came up with the perfect example: logo of a contract killer, or at least a writer of same. Its also the logo of every Klan and Klan wannabe group on the web, including David Duke (who I guess would have to be classified as a wannabe again) as a derivative of a Celtic cross or "sunwheel". Talk about a criminal signature . . .

By Eduard (Eduard) (rot2-p3166.dial.wanadoo.nl - 62.234.207.94) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 04:34 pm:

Tom,

I did retire, but only on researching the true identity of the Zodiac (to many possibilities).
But I will keep visiting your site just to see whats going on, I hope you don't mind.

Eduard

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-186-54.client.attbi.com - 12.224.186.54) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 04:51 pm:

Peter, it doesn't matter if homicide was involved; it's the mere fact that a criminal had TMDG-type quotes in a newspaper just a couple years prior to the Zodiac's activity.

Nevermind.

By Zander Kite (Zk) (a010-1047.stbg.splitrock.net - 64.196.37.31) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 06:55 pm:

I've always assumed that the purpose of this thread was to objectively propose the possibility that Zodiac primarily lived in the New orleans area prior to the SF crimes. Naturally, it is easier to become well-versed in the crime events from your own state. Of course, we are all probably too caught up in our own suspects to delve deeper into a possible New Orleans connection. Which is why I'm surprised by Peters posts, in that he appears not to have a suspect.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-186-54.client.attbi.com - 12.224.186.54) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 07:09 pm:

Everyone accuses me of focusing on Allen, but I can't place him anywhere near New Orleans and yet I still find these New Orleans coincidences interesting.

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ta013.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.205.48) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 07:36 pm:

That is certainly true Tom and I noticed that. Well, let's see then, can we ask Ed N, our resident historian if any of the known suspects had any ties to New Orleans?
As far as I know the one that is in the closest general vicinity is Bruce Davis.
ED????

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-186-54.client.attbi.com - 12.224.186.54) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 09:50 pm:

Sylvie please e-mail me.

By Tony (Mahalo) (hnllhi1-ar1-4-63-132-167.hnllhi1.vz.dsl.gtei.net - 4.63.132.167) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 04:37 am:

Maybe he just got it out of a True Crime Magazine article of the N.O. case. They always replay older crimes. My mom had 'em laying around the house all the time growing up.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-186-54.client.attbi.com - 12.224.186.54) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 09:46 am:

Tony, that's probably what happened. I'm just amazed at those who turn a blind eye to this possibility.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 64.30.209.40) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 10:47 am:

Actually,it would be quite suprising if the young Z did not read detective magazines.He may have read about the Elizabeth Short case(check ES sites to view the pasteup) and saw a reproduction of a pasteup card that was supposedly sent by the killer(this is disputed)with double postage,at least there were two stamps on the card.This may have 'inspired' him to send letters/pasteups to the newspapers later on.The Lord note with symbol could have been very suggestive too.

By Ryan Olesin (Ryan) (d221-216-99.systems.cogeco.net - 216.221.81.99) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 11:21 am:

Ted Bundy read those types of magazines in his younger years.

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-20-54.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.154.20.54) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 02:58 am:

Tom wrote:
"two people who actually used those quotes in blatant reference to their own crimes: the New Orleans loon, and the Zodiac."

Then Tom wrote:
"it doesn't matter if homicide was involved"

Then what does "own crimes" refer to? Forging prescriptions is TMDG?

As for his sign, yeah, maybe he got it out of a true crime mag, or maybe he got it out of the Contract Killer book, or maybe he got it off a Klan robe, or a James Bond movie, or a Druidic tome or

Never mind.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-186-54.client.attbi.com - 12.224.186.54) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 08:27 am:

It doesn't matter where he got the symbol, Peter, what matters is a killer in New Orleans used the symbol as a signature on a murder letter.

I'm waiting for you to name just one incident where similar events (symbol/TMDG) have occured anywhere outside the New Orleans/San Francisco area.

Just one.

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-20-79.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.154.20.79) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 09:22 am:

Uh, I thought I did: every Klan lynching since 1865.

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-20-79.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.154.20.79) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 09:37 am:

http://www.judibari.org/8thAmComplaint.html

Does a death threat count?

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-20-79.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.154.20.79) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 12:49 pm:

Tom writes:

"I'm just amazed at those who turn a blind eye to this possibility. [That Z got the symbol from a true crime rag"

"It doesn't matter where he got the symbol, Peter,"

Boy, if BLJ could have moved like that, not even Scott could have scored a hit . . .

By Ryan Olesin (Ryan) (d221-216-99.systems.cogeco.net - 216.221.81.99) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 07:58 pm:

Peter, very good. While I don't feel this is the same level as a serial killer, and the fact that it was "laughed off when reported to the authorities", its interesting that you found something close that quick.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-186-54.client.attbi.com - 12.224.186.54) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 09:43 pm:

Peter, if you consider Klan lynchings to be in the same category we need not discuss this further.

By the way, I asked for an example outside of the SF Bay Area. Keep 'em coming.

By Peter H (Peter_H) (dialup-63.214.78.43.dial1.boston1.level3.net - 63.214.78.43) on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 04:56 am:

Ryan: It wasn't a serail killer that did Bob Lord either. UNless of course it was Z.

Tom:

What category would that be? You said "criminal". Let's see; stalking by dead of night, by fire, by rope, by gun and by knife, hoods over the head, cross/circle on the front, heavily into weapons, secret codes, occult references, anonymous warnings, threats against busloads of school children, bomb threats against school kids, strong trailer trash influence (sorry, non-Allenites), anything else?

Oh, that doesn't count. Do-over! I call it!

"Outside the SF bay area". And why is that? You think OPD may be under the unconscious influence of Z? Whereas LAPD, for example would never have heard of the case?

I think I'll take a poll next time I'm at San Quention. Betcha 2 out of 3 on death row know TMDG. Manson probably has a first edition.

By Peter H (Peter_H) (dialup-63.214.78.43.dial1.boston1.level3.net - 63.214.78.43) on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 05:03 am:

P.S. Just whom do you think Monsieur Emile Coon-ass Fos of Avondale, LA, cher, with the maltese crosses and swastikas might have been stalking if he truly did hunt the most dangerous game? Norwegians?

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-186-54.client.attbi.com - 12.224.186.54) on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 08:09 am:

As I posted earlier in this thread:

"Unless someone can actually come up with other cases prior to 1969 where the cross-circle symbol and/or TMDG references were used, the argument that it's "not really unusual" goes out the window, and we are left with the possibility that the Zodiac might have been influenced by these New Orleans cases."

Pay attention, Peter.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (199.251.68.84) on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 08:11 am:

Speaking of Most Dangerous Game, has anyone noticed that in the short story Count Zaroff does his "hunting" with a .22 pistol? This isn't specifically stated in the narration, but it's clear from the details given. The protagonist notices a spent .22 shell and wonders why someone hunting big game would use such a small-calibre weapon. When hunting Rainsford, Zaroff uses only a pistol, not a rifle.

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-17-131.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.154.17.131) on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 01:10 pm:

Doug: Now you've done it. Next you'll be telling us that Count Z taunts his prey with loudspeakers hidden in the rain forest blasting out "This is Zaroff speaking" in at least one movie version.

Tom: OK so you can't say why its important that its outside San Fran. Now its important that its before '69. Klan lynchings began before 1869. That go back far enough? Same question: why before '69? Since then, every nut on the planet has become so intimately familiar with these Z references that they have no independent significance?

You have the argument that Z might have been influenced by the New Orleans cases regardless of when else the symbology might have been used.

Fact remains, both the symbol and TMDG are extremely common cultural elements, whether they had been associated with a dozen actual homicides before 69 or not.

Looking at it from another perspective: without a NO connection to Allen, the more importance you place on the Lord/Fos coincidences, the less likely Allen is as a suspect.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 64.30.209.40) on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 02:46 pm:

Tom,
They say many lawyers have drinking and /or drug problems...hmmmm ,coherency is a side effect!

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-186-54.client.attbi.com - 12.224.186.54) on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 04:24 pm:

Peter, you are mistaken if you believe I am hoping Allen will be proven to be the Zodiac.

I've been collecting data on suspects for a few years, including an actual form on this site for that purpose. If Allen's not the guy, I'll drink to that.

By Tony (Mahalo) (hnllhi1-ar1-4-63-132-167.hnllhi1.dsl-verizon.net - 4.63.132.167) on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 10:21 pm:

Tom- I've been drinking to a lot of things lately so a toast is prevalent to the closing of this case.
Peter H: Enjoy your playfull antagonism. Next time your at San Quention can you do us a favor and lock the door behind you? LOL! T

By Howard Davis (Howard) (spider-ntc-tb064.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.16.179) on Sunday, April 28, 2002 - 08:57 pm:

I'll do the key tossing!

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-21-20.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.154.21.20) on Monday, April 29, 2002 - 06:54 am:

Tom:

Actually, I think I have recognized more than some others here that you are not blindly committed to proving Allen was Z. In fact, I have defended your position, as I appreciate it, as being something of a truism : "Allen is the best suspect" not necessarily "Allen is the guy". (One minor deviation on TLC aside) And you are correct that your highlighting things like the New Orleans coincidences advances that inclusiveness. The same can be said for your patient tolerance of some of the more parochial views expressed here.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-185.linkline.com - 64.30.217.185) on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 11:02 pm:

Like YOUR views Peter!

By Zander Kite (Zk) (a010-1045.stbg.splitrock.net - 64.196.37.29) on Wednesday, May 08, 2002 - 03:06 pm:

I wrote in an earlier post here... "....the possibility that Zodiac was from the New Orleans area..." In the first letter where the killer calls himself "Zodiac", he signs along with the Zodiac symbol: NO address. It is also mostly placed on the southeast point of the Z symbol.