Which Would You Rather Watch?

Zodiackiller.com Message Board: General Zodiac Discussion: Which Would You Rather Watch?

By Ray N (Ray_N) (user-38ldc75.dialup.mindspring.com - on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 10:26 am:

The Setup:

OK, you've been allowed to travel back in time to any one of the four known Zodiac strikes. You are suspended in a bubble and cannot affect events; you are only permitted to observe. You are omniscient and can see all angles of all details as they unfold, but the killer's face is removed.


Would you even want to do this knowing what gruesome spectacle would unfold before your helpless eyes?

Do you feel that important information could be learned that would allow us to move the case forward even having not seen Zodiac's face?

What would you be looking for? What facts are we missing and which case could best provide them to us? Which one is the biggest puzzle?


By JMorris (Jmorris) (206-97-63-105.ip.theriver.com - on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 01:23 pm:

I would probably choose Blue Rock Springs because:

1) Maybe I would observe some evidence that Darlene did, in fact, recognize and know her killer.

2) It appears that Z had a vehicle right at the murder scene. If your scenario allows me to see details like make, model, and license that would be very useful information.

By Ray N (Ray_N) (user-38ldffl.dialup.mindspring.com - on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 01:44 pm:

Yeah, a license plate would be as good as a face, wouldn't it? I guess what I am driving at here is if direct clues to his identity were obscured, what other evidence would you hope to observe which we lack so many years later?

Good call on the "knowing her attacker" angle.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 01:49 pm:

Ray, that's a tough one. I guess I can't reply, "all of the above." I'll pick Berryessa.

So far as gruesome is concerned, I worked several days at the Dover Air Force Base mortuary last September when the bodies from the Pentagon incident were being processed. After that experience, I don't imagine anything Zodiac could do would gross me out.

I'm not too sure about the answer to the second question. Seeing Zodiac's face wouldn't necessarily identify him, unless that face could be associated with a name.

I'd like to see what exactly transpired at Berryessa. I'd like to see Zodiac's physical appearance, his speech patterns, and the manner in which he carried out the attack, i.e., whether he did it in a perfunctory manner or whether he appeared to be getting some direct emotional high from it. Since Hartnell has never given a really satisfactory recapitulation of events, I'd like to know exactly what was said and the manner in which it was said. I'd also like to know whether Zodiac spied on Hartnell and Shepard before the attack. And I'd like to see the exact construction of the costume, as well as the kind of clothing Z was wearing at the time.

By Jake (Jake) (spider-mtc-tf063.proxy.aol.com - on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 02:15 pm:

I'd go with Lake Herman Road, since that's the only Z attack without a surviving witness (the kids at Presidio Heights picking up the slack on that incident).

As Mike Rodelli pointed out long ago, Faraday's chalk outline -- head at the rear wheel, feet pointing 45 degrees away from the car -- does not jibe with the conventional wisdom that the boy was shot while climbing out of the car, so that's a question that I still regard as unanswered. Plus, there's the multitude of weird cars going by, the recently-revived rumors of a local-boy/gang shooter, and no immediate call/letter from the killer. I don't have a good answer for where Z's subsequent knowledge of the crime scene came from, but it's long enough after the fact that it may have come from something other than personal knowledge. Knowing that this was not a Z murder might prove to be important somewhere down the line, alibi-wise.

(For the record, I believe that it was Z, though.)


By Esau (Esau) (12-246-187-137.client.attbi.com - on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 03:20 pm:

I'm stuck between Paul Stine and Berryessa.
The portions of Stine's shirt in the letters seems to me to be absolute proof that Zodiac was the killer. I'd be interested in where he came from and where he went as well as the interaction with Foukes and Zelms.
The Berryessa crime is the most fascinating to me and with that crime you get more details. Zodiac's car, a long conversation with the victims, a home made costume, etc.
I think the Blue Rock springs scene would yeild alot of clues also.

By Ryan Olesin (Ryan) (d221-216-99.systems.cogeco.net - on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 07:12 pm:

If I have no control over the events then I would not be too bothered by watching each attack.

I'm not too interested in the first 2 shootings. They were so quick I don't know what they would provide.

The Berryessa attack would may not provide much additional information, but I think it would be fascinating to see the event take place. The costume, the interaction, and the signature on the door. However following him to the phone both would tell you if that was his palm print.

Watching the Stine killing would give you the answer of whether or not Z left any of his finger prints there.

I'd be most interested in watching him write those letters. Watch him plan these ciphers, and find out what the "my name is" cipher really spells out.

I would like to know if the Bates, confirmed Zodiac attacks, and Kathleen Johns were all done by the same man.

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-wo061.proxy.aol.com - on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 08:02 pm:

Good thread Ray,
For me it would be Cheri Jo with Berryessa coming in a close second. (I have always believed CJB to be a Z crime). The whole scenario is so inexplicable, so bizarre that I would love to know the how and why at least if I cannot know the who. Ex: What did she do with her killer the 75 minutes or so before she died?
BTW Jake, I am one of the few that questions LHR. I know they always call that a confirmed Z, but I am hesitant, for many reasons, including many of
the ones you have mentioned. Terribly unorthodox I know, but why couldn't Z have read about it, copycated it, then turned around and took advantage of claiming credit for both? (So what if he found out some details somehow).
OK, I am getting off track, yes I'll put my vote in for CJB.

By William Baker (Bill_Baker) (lsanca1-ar16-4-47-009-142.lsanca1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net - on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 08:52 pm:

Forgive me, but I thought that Ray set this up to include the four known Z cases, which I believe would be LHR, BRS, LB and PH. Since it's his thread, I would think that if it was to also include Riverside he would have said so.

I agree with Jake, in that LHR is the only case of the four with no witnesses, leaving much to scene reconstruction and interpretation. Seeing Z in action from the outset to his departure might offer greater insight as to how it may compare with BRS, even though his interaction with the victims in the two cases differed significantly because of the unplanned loss of control. We have a relatively complete picture of what occurred at the other three scenes, based of course on the sometimes limited and perhaps muddled accounts of witnesses, whereas with LHR there is much to learn.

By Ray N (Ray_N) (user-38ldfng.dialup.mindspring.com - on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 09:01 pm:

My first pick would be Santa Barbara. I think that would tie in a lot of things, if it was Zodiac. I believe that LHR was a Z case, but if it was not, then probably neither was SB. I think the same person was responsible for those two. That means we could have Zodiac doing 3 hits, and the other guy doing 2. But I doubt it. I think it's all Z.

If I had to pick one of the four, I'd make it Presidio Heights. I just have to know what he did in the cab, how he got there, what he said to the cops, and how the hell he got away. That's just a remarkable crime anyway you slice it. You've gotta hand it to the guy, he pulled off something incredible that night.


By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-21-169.bos.east.verizon.net - on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 07:59 am:

I'm with Doug. LB, by several lengths.
Berryessa is the biggest mystery. It's the one with the most weakly substantiated ties to Z, and the one that not only deviates most from the common MO, personation and signature of the other 3, but has the most highly evolved versions of those elements. Details such as handling of the rope lengths, the odd remark, or exact sequence of events could tend to confirm or disprove the connection with SB. The voice and demeanor would be very important, especially since we have suspects' exemplars. The process of tying the victims, especially while covering them, as well as tagging of the Ghia could tell a lot about handedness. We would know exactly what he said about his cover story. The exact design of the z sign could be useful. Of the three most likely derivations -- earth sign, Celtic cross, crosshairs -- the exact design on the hood could give a better clue to is source -- and hence to Z's cultural interests -- than the symbol in letters.

A Note on this point: as an astrological/astronomical symbol, the z-sign is closest to the symbol for earth. In that symbol, however, the cross is entirely within the circle. The actual z-sign is diagrammatically similar only to either the crosshairs or the Celtic cross. But I digress.

By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p219.as1.clonmel1.eircom.net - on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 01:39 pm:

It's got to be Stine for me.All the best evidence/answers are here.
We would know why he stopped where he did.
What conversation took place.
What exactly happened in the taxi after the murder.
He also left on foot.Did he speak with officers?
Did he return to a car or enter a building?
There is so much more here than anywhere else IMHO

By JMorris (Jmorris) (206-97-63-76.ip.theriver.com - on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 02:11 pm:

The way I understood the scenario we would not be able to follow any action away from the actual killings, so in regards to Stine how could we see if he talked to the officers, where he went, etc. If we can see that, than we can just follow him home from any of the killings, right?

I agree that Stine would be good to try to see if Z did in fact leave fingerprints.

By Ray N (Ray_N) (user-38ldf0q.dialup.mindspring.com - on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 02:59 pm:

I admit that I didn't do the greatest job of setting this up. The spirit of the thread was intended to be what are we missing and which crime scene is most important.

You can view all elements of the crime sequence including approach, action, and escape. All direct evidence to the killer's identity is obscured. This would include following him home to his house.

By Ed N (Ed_N) (acc2eb80.ipt.aol.com - on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 08:36 pm:

Choosing which crime to witness is a difficult choice; I believe there are elements in all which might help to move the case forward. So, just spin the dial on the time machine and see which one I get to witness at random (if I had a TARDIS, I'd just use the randomizer that the Doctor installed and used for a time...).

One thing is for certain, being an historian and obviously quite interested in true crime, I don't think I'd be too bothered watching a murder that happened 30+ years ago. I would probably watch with interest to see how events actually transpired compared to the reconstructions and eyewitness accounts.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (196.philadelphia01rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 08:48 pm:

The events certainly wouldn't have unfolded the way they do in televised dramas. They would happen so quickly that you'd be left wondering exactly what you'd seen.

By Mike (Oklahoma_Mike) ( on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 04:49 pm:

If we could not influence events my choice would be E: None of the above. We could answer some questions, but not the REAL questions. I am sure I am not the only one to fantasize about a chance to time travel to any of the crimes if we COULD influence events!

By Tony (Mahalo) (hnllhi1-ar1-4-63-132-167.hnllhi1.dsl-verizon.net - on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 08:49 pm:

Good thread Ray. If I were at the 4 known sites, I'd wonder why they were taking place around cars, at Berryessa actual Z message placed on the car door(BTW his real hand printing).If Bates was a Z crime,which I believe it was, the ripped out distributor under the hood of her car. I realize that a vehicle is a great means of escape, but how many serial killers can you name who's every known crime was in or around cars?

By Steve (Steve) (netcache-1113.public.svc.webtv.net - on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 11:01 am:

I would choose the Blue Rock springs shooting. I think this Z crime would lend the most details to an observation. The possiblity of 2 different cars maybe an accomplice?,a surviving victim dressed very unusually on a hot 4th of july,did Darlene know Z? did they actually have an argument before the shooting? All these questions answered could point out the missing pieces we need to make a identification of Z.

By Zander Kite (Zk) (a010-1087.stbg.splitrock.net - on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 08:35 pm:

Which would you rather watch? Probably the one that holds the best hope of being watched. Namely the Lake B. crime, because it happened during daylight. I'm referring to satellite technology. Obviously, I can't state it as fact that there was some sort of blanket satellite spying going on in 1969, but I can state as fact that in, I believe 1994, a North Carolina serial killer was captured using satellite technology that placed his car at three seperate dumpsters where bodies were found. Too much coincidence for the police! and he was brought in.

By Prisk29 (Prisk29) (lbv-ca27-68.rasserver.net - on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 02:13 am:

The North Carolina guy must have forgot to put on his tinfoil hat to keep the mind control rays out.
I'm just kidding.
To be serious, I think I'd go with the Lake Herman Rd. attack; simply because there are no living witnesses to give any facts. Jakes point of the positioning of David Faradays body is a good one. Man can not live on speculation alone......

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-ntc-td024.proxy.aol.com - on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 03:29 pm:

Lake Berryessa:

Was the guy who did the stabbing the same as did the writing? What was the general structure of his cranium without the hood? Model of gun? 9mm or .45ACP? Same guy as that seen by the teenage girls? Sonoma composite? How long did Z watch Bryan and Cecilia before attacking them? How long had he been gone before Mr. Fong and his son arrived? Did he really believe Bryan to be dead, or did he deliberately leave knowing Bryan was still alive? What was the make and model of the Z's car? Was he really wearing Wingwalkers? Finally, for now, I'd love to hear the conversation between Z, Cecilia, and Bryan as it actually happened.


By Jim (Jim) (216-102-74-74.scoe.org - on Tuesday, May 07, 2002 - 02:38 pm:

neat idea for a thread here!
hmmmmm....which one though?
probably the LHR or the LB murders I would imagine. To be able to witness the LHR murders when there were no other witnesses and the the LB thing is just so darn smug on Z's case to think that he could pull all of that off without being witnessed while directly committing the crime? pretty ballsy!

By Dawn (Dawn) (ns19.statefarm.com - on Friday, May 17, 2002 - 01:53 pm:

I would have to go with Stein or LB. Only because there are so many "clues" That were probably missed or overlooked and the idea of being able to know the jist of everything that happened, what a rush!!!

By Sandy (Sandy) (ppp-64-175-141-186.dialup.wnck11.pacbell.net - on Sunday, May 19, 2002 - 11:17 pm:

Tony, The answer to your 4/27 post--- The son of Sam killed couples in cars near water,some on Hollidays. Wrote letters to the news papers,and police. David Berkowitz was only one of a group of killers in that case. The rest are still free, and one was from Calif.! He was called Mr. Realestate, and was also a mason. Kane fits that discription to a tee. He once lived in Brooklyn NY. Z was not killing here durring that time.

By Tony (Mahalo) (hnllhi1-ar1-4-65-051-246.hnllhi1.dsl-verizon.net - on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 08:12 pm:

Thanks Sandy. I read Maury Terry's Ultimate Evil when it first came out and immediatly thought of Zodiac with the murder of Arliss Perryin the 1st chapter. The book also ties Manson in which is why Howard Davis's theories have always intrigued me.

By Sandy (Sandy) (ppp-64-175-140-145.dialup.wnck11.pacbell.net - on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 07:01 pm:

I was made fun of when I made the connection. I enjoy Howard very much, and hope he will be at the Z get together on July 4th. Try to join us, I saw the place we have reserved , its perfect!! I had so much fun in Riverside, I am looking forward to this.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (spider-wm074.proxy.aol.com - on Sunday, June 02, 2002 - 09:59 pm:

I hope my theories don't influence anyone!I have researched the Z case to follow a pristine tip(in my view only!) I was given in '74 and where it goes is a matter of speculation.I personally have not been disappointed,but that doesn't count!
All of us are following up on information we have acquired with the goal to add something of real substance to the case.
I appreciate all the posts and work all of the Z researchers have done,including Toms premier site which is awesome!
Sandi-I will be there.Don't worry I'll bring Kane as he's selling houses in Vallejo-he wants to talk to you alone!