Origin of Zodiac's "Slaves in the Afterlife"?
Zodiackiller.com Message Board: General Zodiac Discussion: Origin of Zodiac's "Slaves in the Afterlife"?
|By Tom Voigt (Admin) (12-224-139-118.client.attbi.com - 18.104.22.168) on Saturday, July 27, 2002 - 02:16 pm:|
"It is an article of faith on the island of Borneo
that all those persons a man kills will be his
slaves in the next world; and as a result, the
better a man wishes to be served after his death,
the more he kills during life."
The above is a quote from "Juliette" by the Marquis de
Sade. It's from page 785 of the Grove Press edition,
copyright 1968, as translated by Austryn Wainhouse.
The quote is part of a long discourse by the Pope (!)
defending murder as being in accord with the dictates
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (76.philadelphia01rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 22.214.171.124) on Saturday, July 27, 2002 - 05:10 pm:|
I'll have to dig up my copy of de Sade's works and see if I can find anything relevant. However, anyone who's familiar with the famous 19th century anthropologist Fraser will know that such beliefs are common to virtually all primitive peoples and find parallels amongst tribes that are isolated by thousands of miles.
|By Mike_D (Mike_D) (cache-mtc-ak04.proxy.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Saturday, July 27, 2002 - 05:19 pm:|
In recent days I've read about similar beliefs among Mayan,Aztec,and Inca peoples.As
Aztecs believed soldiers killed in battle became slaves of the warrior who killed them and followed him to the sky as birds.
Perhaps closest of all is the Inca who sacrificed
maidens to serve the Great Inca in the afterlife.
Egyptians also buried and mummified the King's subjects w/him to serve him in the afterlife early on,but abandoned the practice
New world cultures continued til the Spanish conquest...
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-139-118.client.attbi.com - 188.8.131.52) on Saturday, July 27, 2002 - 05:55 pm:|
I'm no expert on de Sade, Fraser, or even Seinfeld. However, if the masses here in the good ol' USA weren't exposed to these beliefs until 1968, I think it's very relevant.
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (136.philadelphia04rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 184.108.40.206) on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 12:26 am:|
Tom, the concepts have been widely available for a long time. But I think they're too esoteric to be accessible to the masses. However, the idea of having slaves in the afterlife isn't incompatible with the type of personality displayed by Zodiac. He's a desperate character, and it shows. Notice how he's hoarding up all his hopes for the "other world." No one is going to serve him in this sphere, so he's saving it all for the afterlife. And of course, since he's never had a relationship with a willing partner in life, he'll have a troop of unwilling slaves in death, over whom he can exercise his will.
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (acc06b97.ipt.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 12:31 am:|
Of course, that is assuming that he even believed that drivel in the first place. If he was "collecting slaves for his afterlife," why stop with Stine???
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (170.philadelphia01rh.16.pa.dial-access.att.net - 18.104.22.168) on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 07:17 am:|
Ed, I doubt very seriously that he really believed it. I think he was pulling everyone's chain. However, a strong subconscious element probably lay behind it.
|By Ray N (Ray_N) (user-38ldeek.dialup.mindspring.com - 22.214.171.124) on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 09:49 am:|
Guys, I think everyone on this thread is right on the money. The whole concept of this
message is suspect isn't it? Doug, you say that you think he was pulling our chains, and I
agree. This begs the question, what was he up to? Why would someone resort to such a
strange and rambling style of writing if he was not going to produce what he claimed was
there? Could this be some clever trick that he was playing? Let's assume for the moment
that it is. Now the logical questions to ask are
1. What would he be trying to accomplish?
2. How/in what manner would what he actually wrote accomplish this? Even in general terms, what would be the motive for this and what would be the intended result?
Does anyone have any ideas? This is obviously a fairly outlandish concept. But did the Z ever constrain himself to the norm in any way, shape, or form?
I'd like to see someone go out on a limb here. What was the purpose of this cipher? Why go to the trouble to make it if there was no purpose?
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (acbe24d4.ipt.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 11:17 am:|
I never once believed that Z believed that he was actually collecting slaves for his
afterlife. The purpose of the cipher would therefore have been to give the public his
"mission statement," as it were, and he had to insert the idea of collecting
slaves because he obviously couldn't tell anyone his real motive (actually, it could have
been anything, he just happened to choose that one, perhaps for the effect it would have
on the public).
For instance, if there is any truth to the idea that Darlene knew many of the other victims and Z himself, then it would seem that Z was systematically eliminating them probably because they knew something about him he didn't want revealed. If so, he couldn't admit to that, but he could give them some line that the cops might think he actually believed, so that they might not think to look at the relationships, if any, that might have existed between his victims.
I have to wonder how much terror that statement evoked in the public, many of which are ignorant of matters spiritual and might believe it. Or, for those who knew better, they would still be frightened of going out at night, because some lunatic who thought everyone he killed would be his slaves would be out collecting as many as possible until he was stopped, and they could be next.
So, those are some possibilities of what Z's actual purpose in composing the cipher might have been.
|By Zander Kite (Zk) (colo34.xoom.com - 188.8.131.52) on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 11:31 am:|
It does appear to have good "terror-value". I believe that it reflects someone who is promoting a simpler life. Also, I would guess that based on this, The Zodiac finds it ridiculous that people believe in "GOD" and so he mocks them with his own bizarre belief system. Similar to mocking the moral code of society with his own violent codes.
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (214.philadelphia01rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 184.108.40.206) on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 02:26 pm:|
Consider also that he might have been trying to divert attention from what was obviously his real motive, i.e., sexual frustration and/or ambiguous sexuality.
|By Sandy (Sandy) (ppp-64-175-140-111.dialup.wnck11.pacbell.net - 220.127.116.11) on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 06:42 pm:|
Doug, I am with you as far as diverting attention. My feeling on this is Darlene was a real hit, not random at all. The others were a cover-up to make it look like he was a nut case just killing people at random. We need to find out who was giving Darlene all the extra money she was getting? Who gave her the drugs she was passing out? Was that money part of the counterfeit money ring, that was in Vallejo at that time? Find the men she was doing this for, and I believe you will have her killer.Maybe she didn't want to continue doing this,and dateing Cop's she thought would be some kind of protection? She must have been ready to tell all,that would make sense then for her to tell her Mother: you will read about me in the paper. She also told others something big was about to happen. I believe Mike knew about some of it, and that more than one person was involved. He knows that if he tells the truth about the man she was so afraid of,one of the others would get him. Putting the finger on a dead man, would perhaps save him from any other problems,after all it couldn't hurt him ? You say they could have killed him later to shut him up? wouldn't that make the police think that Darlene did know her killer? He is still out doing "his thing", just like he said he would,and not telling us who he has killed. Oh he still gets the attention he so needs, as a killer with no name. Don't think he doesn't love this site! I only hope that if he spends his time reading the message board, it slows him down from his hunt.
|By Roger Redding (Roger_Redding) (sdn-ap-008txhousp0305.dialsprint.net - 18.104.22.168) on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 08:51 pm:|
I've always thought that the "slaves in the afterlife" thing was a concept
that a fairly imaginative person could come up with, without necessarily knowing of any
precedents for that belief. If it was not a completely original idea in Z's mind, then
it's kind of like the crossed-circle symbol: there are so many possible sources, one
starts to lose interest unless one can tie a particular source to a particular suspect.
For example, if "Juliette" were to be found in Allen's library (and it wouldn't
surprise me greatly if it were), then that would be interesting.
I agree that he probably didn't really believe it; it might not have even meant that much to him, maybe just filler to get the cypher up to 408 characters. However, I think he liked to repeat things that he noticed got particular attention.
|By Linda (Linda) (208-59-124-154.s154.tnt1.frdr.md.dialup.rcn.com - 22.214.171.124) on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 09:17 pm:|
I agree that Z's mention of slaves in the afterlife was not necessarily his belief, but
just a "figure of speech" or writer's reference/comment using imagination to
possibly scare and/or frighten.
Roger, you said, "...If it was not a completely original idea in Z's mind, then it's kind of like the crossed-circle symbol: there are so many possible sources, one starts to lose interest unless one can tie a particular source to a particular suspect. For example, if "Juliette" were to be found in Allen's library (and it wouldn't surprise me greatly if it were), then that would be interesting."
Interestingly, and Doug will probably be able to confirm this, one of Ted Kaczynski's favorite authors was L. Sprague deCamp and one of his favorite books was, "The Ancient Engineers." Chapter 2 of the book is titled, "The Egyptian Engineers." This chapter discusses the Egyptians' "...elaborate beliefs about life after death...the spirit of a dead man needed the spirits of the things he used in life to keep him happy. In the early days of Egypt, Mesopotamia, and China, in addition to stores of food, clothing, weapons, and ornaments, scores of attendants and guardsmen were killed and buried with the king to serve him in the afterworld."
I think this is another very interesting connection to TK as a Z suspect.
|By Mike_D (Mike_D) (cache-dr05.proxy.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 09:36 pm:|
Too many people do not believe Zodiac killed for slaves in the Afterlife because THEY
can't believe such a thing.But Z was most likely a psychopath who could believe it.You
don't understand him because YOU arn't nuts.He was.
I often hear people say they don't believe in mental illness.People "really" can't believe crazy things but they do.I once knew a guy who really believed HE was assasinated By JFK!
And he was going to marry a Jewish millionairess
from the old song Association "Windy".
I don't make fun of the man.Actually it was pitiful to listen to him live in his fantasy world
but it was all real to him.
P.S.Seeing that nobodies ciome back from the afterlife can we really say Zodiac was wrong....
|By Roger Redding (Roger_Redding) (sdn-ap-008txhousp0305.dialsprint.net - 188.8.131.52) on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 09:59 pm:|
"in the early days of
Egypt, Mesopotamia, and China, in addition to stores of food, clothing, weapons, and ornaments, scores of attendants and guardsmen were killed
and buried with the king to serve him in the afterworld."
I think that's too well known to count toward any particular suspect. I knew about the Egyptian custom at least by the time I was in high school. And anyway, here you're talking about people who were already slaves/servants in one life fulfiling the same function in the next. That's different from the aquisitive (hunting?) aspect expressed by Z.
|By Linda (Linda) (208-59-124-31.s31.tnt1.frdr.md.dialup.rcn.com - 184.108.40.206) on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 03:42 am:|
I don't think there is any indication that any of the suspects were interested and/or
believed in the afterlife. Given Zodiac's propensity for sarcasm, I believe it's more
likely that Zodiac used this wording as a writing tool. The only suspect known to use
writing as a means of communication to threaten the public is Ted Kaczynski. (And TK used
sarcasm in many of his correspondences, including his personal, coded diary).
I do agree that many people have some knowledge of the history that in ancient times there was belief in the afterlife. And I would suggest that all of the suspects had some direct availability to an encyclopedia; whether it be a set at home or one from the library. It's my opinion that what makes the connection to TK somewhat stronger, in this instance, is that here is a book that TK had in his library and was "known" to love, read and re-read (this according to his brother).
|By Alan Cabal (Alan_Cabal) (153.sanfrancisco-12rh16rt-ca.dial-access.att.net - 220.127.116.11) on Monday, July 29, 2002 - 09:33 pm:|
Z was heavily into cheap splatter movie melodrama and the turn of phrase suits his low-budget horror movie persona. Maybe there's something hidden (occulted) in the reference, a key misspelling or an anomalous verbal nuance.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 18.104.22.168) on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 12:42 pm:|
I posted(and in other places) 10/16/2000 under Zodiac's Esoteric Religious Beliefs
that Manson believed in the 'slaves in the afterlife' concept.He got this horrible
teaching from a meeting place(the Spiral Staircase)for heavy occultists,Satanists and
witchcraft adherents.A lady,"who was pumped up about devil worship," from
S.F.,that Manson had met there was running the meeting House in the L.A. area.
CM told me in a letter that he and "Bruce [Davis]started the REBORN movement in '67."Davis and Manson are 'one' as far as CM is concerned.
Zodiac says that when he is "REBORN"he will meet his slaves and "torture" them and goes on in Manson like wordage (books show CM spoke of ways he was going to torture people -I have referred to them in past posts on "slaves",etc.)how he is going to 'torment'them- not 'serve him' per se.See his torture letter.
CMs letters are filled with references that others are his "slaves."I have gone through literally hundreds of his letters and it's all in those letters,plus,as info from others and various books,etc.Just reading a couple of'standard' books on CM won't get the needed info in many cases.
Manson said he was responsible for the murder of 35 victims or slaves as he refered to them writing that 'all are his slaves.'
I have searched and asked if other Z suspects had such beliefs,but so far no evidence has materialized.
|By Ray N (Ray_N) (user-38ldcjb.dialup.mindspring.com - 22.214.171.124) on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 12:34 pm:|
I agree that it's very interesting, even chilling, that CM had the "slaves in the afterlife" belief. If Zodiac believed heavily in this as well, it's possible that he at least knew Manson. Those people run in fairly small circles I'd imagine. It would sure be nice to know if this was on the level, in other words, did he believe it or was he using this storyline for another purpose. For my part, that's one reason I shy away from the occult angle. I think for some reason that's what he wanted us to think, as if he were putting on a frunt for us. One thing's for sure: Charlie's brain don't work right.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 126.96.36.199) on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 01:30 pm:|
CM/BD believed it at that time period.If CM has changed his mind-and recent interviews show him to still be heavily involved in occult teachings-he has not displayed this in letters/intreviews,etc.
It would not matter anyway,as what he adhered to in the Zodiac time frame of crimes and letters is what matters.
Now,there may be a slight difference in the 'afterlife' reference with CM as departing from Zodiacs constant hammering of this evil teaching in his missives in one particular.
At least one follower said that 'killing a victim at random will release the soul of the person to the afterlife (which CM referred to as Paradise/the Hole/Pit,etc.)and that person will become CMs slave in the next world.'If CM/BD were 'one', as CM exclaimed ,it would not exclude BD from receiving those super peachie keeno slaves in paradise!
They used the word "reborn"(as CM did in his letter to me)as I said when referring to this Paradise.
Tex Watson said CM told him"...people would be waiting...for him and the REST of the followers in... paradise."It looks like CM threw in some beef steaks later because after all-ya gotta' have some incentive to kill folks!And like BD said "killing people was like another day on the farm"!
|By Mike_D (Mike_D) (188.8.131.52) on Thursday, August 01, 2002 - 12:03 pm:|
Interesting about the Spiral Staircase Howard.A while back I saw parts of the film
Satanis:the Devil's Mass.Filmed at the Church of Satan in S.F.
I was surprised to see elaborate costumes and masks from such a rinky--dink outfit as the Church.They must have had very theatrically trained people helping them.
I wonder if one of them dreamed up the Zodiac costume....