Santa Rosa unsolved female homocides


Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Other Possible Zodiac Victims: Santa Rosa unsolved female homocides

By Christen (Christen) (proxy-1346.public.svc.webtv.net - 209.240.220.169) on Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 10:52 pm:

Kim Wendy Allen, Santa Rosa Junior College Student Was last seen leaving her job in Larkspur, hitching a ride as she often did. was found off Enterprise Rd. Santa Rosa.
She had been strangled. No sexual molestation or foreign objects inserted etc.... There were several varieties of small animal hairs matted in her head and pubic hair regions. At least one variety coming from a species of chipmunk not commonly found west of the Sierra Neveda. It was determined that she had been in contact with or transported in a vehicle exposing her to these hairs. Leigh Allen had these same varieties for study.

By Jake (Jake) (spider-wm061.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.199.176) on Monday, October 09, 2000 - 08:37 am:

Christen wrote:
"Leigh Allen had these same varieties for study."

Now if you could just link him to the Zodiac murders.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking"

By Edn (Edn) (spider-wc054.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.193.44) on Wednesday, October 11, 2000 - 11:51 pm:

Maybe Allen was responsible for the Santa Rosa murders. Maybe, if he was not Z, he was copycatting him instead.

By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-wc054.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.193.44) on Thursday, October 12, 2000 - 01:11 am:

A thought just occurred to me. Maybe it was Dave Seville! Alvin and the Chipmunks were his accomplices!

By Eduard Versluijs (Eduard) (erasmuscollege.nl - 194.109.60.77) on Thursday, October 12, 2000 - 02:02 am:

That's why they could not find a HUMAN-fingerprint.
I think you are right,Ed!
(or is this just a diversion?)

By Esau (Esau) (2cust109.tnt2.sacramento2.ca.da.uu.net - 63.25.234.109) on Tuesday, December 12, 2000 - 03:15 pm:

I no longer have a copy of Graysmith's book but I do recall Graysmith saying that while a body dump site was being processed in the Santa Rosa homicides some of the investigators were surprised to see Allen walking on a rural road from the direction of the body dump site. From what I've learned about Graysmith from this site I'm not sure that I believe him. I get the feeling that this is another fabrication designed to get a publisher interested in his book.

By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (ac827531.ipt.aol.com - 172.130.117.49) on Tuesday, December 12, 2000 - 03:57 pm:

Good point. I keep forgetting to ask the author about that one...
I doubt it's true.

By Esau (Esau) (cc129455-a.rcrdva1.ca.home.com - 24.176.178.187) on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 07:16 am:

Hi Tom, have you asked Graysmith about this yet?

By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (aca0535a.ipt.aol.com - 172.160.83.90) on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 05:31 pm:

Not yet...

By Jim (Jim) (216-102-73-219.scoe.org - 216.102.73.219) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 12:52 pm:

if that fact is being called into question, then why not all of the other info from RG's books? man, that could be very disheartening...and extremely dishonest on his part! can we get a refund?
jim

By Tony (Mahalo) (hnllhi1-ar1-4-63-132-167.hnllhi1.dsl-verizon.net - 4.63.132.167) on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 09:16 pm:

I don't think RG was lying. He mentions it in the new book also and it would be nice to get a confirmation on his source. In 1975, we were driving to school in Santa Rosa when the subject of Zodiac came up. My best friend reminded me of a couple girls we had ice skated with were possible Z attacks(Weber & Sterling). Of course I rememberd them as they were very cute(bless their hearts) and seeing their photo's on the missing Sonoma coeds page years later proved it to me. whether Allen was Z or copying, what the hell was he doing at that dumping ground. It seemed Zodiac was everywhere growing up in the N. Bay Area

By Jim (Jim) (216-102-75-99.scoe.org - 216.102.75.99) on Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 02:11 pm:

yeah, well the guy cannot be ubiquitous even if he tries to be imitating the devil himself! sometimes a coincidence is just that--but we can always be suspect of them until proven false. many times people read way way way too much into things though, so....
jim

By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-136.linkline.com - 64.30.217.136) on Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 12:11 am:

One of the coeds had been raped.This would have been a significant departure for Zodiac.

By Ed N (Ed_N) (acc29e66.ipt.aol.com - 172.194.158.102) on Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 11:48 am:

Another zynchronicity: I dated a woman back in 1997 (took her to see Titanic) who went to school with Weber and Sterling.

You know, with all these zynchronicities, I'd be a Z suspect myself if I were 20-30 years older.

By Tony (Mahalo) (hnllhi1-ar1-4-63-133-171.hnllhi1.dsl-verizon.net - 4.63.133.171) on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 02:54 am:

Oh, that's right! Zodiac only raped small boys. Gimmie a break!

By Tony (Mahalo) (hnllhi1-ar1-4-63-133-171.hnllhi1.dsl-verizon.net - 4.63.133.171) on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 03:52 am:

Ed ? A 'Z' suspect? I'll keep my daughters off the streets big guy.

By Jim (Jim) (216-102-79-95.scoe.org - 216.102.79.95) on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 02:17 pm:

well, Z did mention that he would change his M.O. to make things "more difficult on the police" so why not start with the coeds and raping?
jim

By Jim (Jim) (216-102-74-74.scoe.org - 216.102.74.74) on Tuesday, May 07, 2002 - 02:44 pm:

if Z was a sexual deviant or dysfunctional then rape would fit into that I believe because rape is hardly a "cooperative" act...it is used to dominate someone the rapist perceives to be inferior but is in all actuality superior to the rapist but the rapist does not want to view it that way. Z couldn't have gotten what he wanted the way he hoped to have it so he just took it by force? just a thought of two here
jim

By Ed N (Ed_N) (acbe1ec8.ipt.aol.com - 172.190.30.200) on Monday, June 10, 2002 - 06:27 pm:

Some interesting points to consider about what I discovered last week concerning the Santa Rosa victims:

1) The general area around Franz Valley Road is known as "Hell's Kitchen," where Yvonne Lisa Weber and Maureen Louise Sterling (Zodiac, pp. 252, 253, 310, and Zodiac Unmasked, pp. 107, 140-141), and Carolyn Nadine Davis (Zodiac, pp. 253, 255, 311, and Zodiac Unmasked, pp. 114, 141, 152-153), were found. RG claims that Sterling's middle name was "Lee," but her death certificate lists it as "Louise";

2) RG identifies the skeleton that was found on 7-6-1979 as Jeanette Kamahele (Zodiac, pp. 252-253, 310, and Zodiac Unmasked, pp. 108, 140), who vanished on 4-25-1972. There is no death certificate on record for her in Sonoma County, which tells me that the remains were never formally identified, at least not as belonging to Jeanette. RG quotes Sergeant Steve Brown of the Sonoma Sheriff's Department as saying that one of the Santa Rosa victims was never found (ZU, p. 488); much like other possible Z victims RG listed in Zodiac that could not have been that I've mentioned in previous posts, Jeanette should be struck from said list until her fate can be determined (for all we know, she decided to start a new life and just took off);

3) Lori Lee Kursa's (Zodiac, pp. 253-254, 310, and Zodiac Unmasked, pp. 139-140), death certificate was not in Sonoma County either. Since her body was formally identified ("13-Year-Old Dead Girl Identified" by James E. Reid, The Press Democrat, 12-17-1972, p. 1), I suspect that perhaps it's in Napa County instead (the county line is not all that far from where she was found; I won't know till I check it out);

4) Eva Lucienne Blau (Zodiac, pp. 251-252, 309), was born on 9-12-1952, and Kim Wendy Allen (Zodiac, pp. 252-253, 310, and Zodiac Unmasked, pp. 107-108, 141, 159, 261, 488), was born on 9-22-1952. I find it kind of odd that they were born 10 days apart (kind of like how Allen and Stine shared the same birthdate of December 18th, six years apart). Did the killer know them somehow, or was it just coincidence?

By Mike_D (Mike_D) (spider-wo052.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.200.42) on Monday, June 10, 2002 - 08:28 pm:

Probably coincidence!My sisters birthday is around the same time and she wasn't murdered by Zodiac or anyone else.In fact shes alive and well.

By Ed N (Ed_N) (acc293c7.ipt.aol.com - 172.194.147.199) on Tuesday, June 11, 2002 - 03:04 pm:

Mike: very true, it probably is coincidence... but I thought it kind of odd. But what about the other things?

By Ed N (Ed_N) (acc293c7.ipt.aol.com - 172.194.147.199) on Tuesday, June 11, 2002 - 03:08 pm:

Something else I suppose I can add: I once dated a woman (took her to see Titanic in Petaluma) who went to school with Sterling and Weber. Chalk another one up to zynchronicity!

By Mike_D (Mike_D) (134.241.122.136) on Tuesday, June 11, 2002 - 05:13 pm:

Reminds me of Marie Anstey dead on what would have been Dralene Ferrin's birthday.Unfotunately
She wasn't killed by Z or nayone else.Died of dope and drowning.

By Law123 (Law123) (cache-ntc-af07.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.26.172) on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 06:04 pm:

Santa Rosa Girls-

I am interested in researching the santa rosa homicides. I contacted DOJ regarding a report they did mentioned in Graysmith's book on Zodiac; DOJ says they contacted the dept that did the report and its no longer in existence (unless someone kept a copy but the distribution was limited in the first place).

Dumping bodies didn't seem to be Z's M.O., he usually left the bodies where they dropped when he assualted them. The location of the crime and how the bodies were left seemed very important to Z. Except the tahoe homicide which may be a "dumping" M.O. (?) Then the SB victims were carried to a shack and attempted burning. If that was Z. Still its different than dumping bodies down a ravine off a highway. Also one santa rosa girl was sexually assualted, not typical of Z.

Anyway does anyone have copies of the news articles from santa rosa? Or other research data.
Thanks!!

By Kendra (Kendra) (pluto.cds1.net - 216.174.197.132) on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 11:36 pm:

Law123-I live in Santa Rosa and have done some research on the S.R. unsolved homicides myself. I've read some of the articles from the Press Democrat on Microfilm, but do not have copies. Ed has some copies, I think. Mainly, I did research on the teacher mentioned in ZU, the one RG insinuated was responsible for the homicides. I have yet to talk to det. Brown at the P.D. Feel free to email me for details or other info.

By Kendra (Kendra) (pluto.cds1.net - 216.174.197.132) on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 11:38 pm:

P.S. there is NO Sulley Rd. in Santa Rosa. Tony can back me up on this...

By Mike Kelleher (Mike_Kelleher) (12-236-234-235.client.attbi.com - 12.236.234.235) on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 05:54 am:

Kendra:

Sulley Rd. = Franz Valley Rd. He was asked not to use the real name of the location by SRSO.

Mike

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-139-118.client.attbi.com - 12.224.139.118) on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 10:08 am:

Mike Kelleher:
"He was asked not to use the real name of the location by SRSO."

Mike, just curious...where did you hear that?

By Ed N. (Ed_N) (acc27896.ipt.aol.com - 172.194.120.150) on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 12:48 pm:

Especially since RG mentioned Franz Valley Road by name in Zodiac, pp. 252-253, 279-280. "Sully Road" was mentioned only once, on p. 277. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense for him to do that...

By Mike Kelleher (Mike_Kelleher) (marinhousing2.org - 63.195.44.210) on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 01:06 pm:

Tom and Ed:

Hi fellas. On the surface it doesn't seem to make sense but it does in reality. The investigation was headed by Det.Lt. Mike Brown at the SRSO and is still active, although Mike has recently retired. There were a number (rather large number) of holdbacks and other pieces of private information about several of the victims. The thinking at the time, as even to this day, is that all the SRH murders were not the work of the same perp and that at least one of the perps was a local individual, while one was not. Even the locations of a few of the bodies was not accurate in the public record, which was also done by design. Overall, it's a very complex series of crimes. So much so that I spent more time on the SRH murders than on any other single crime I've ever investigated, including Zodiac, and I know there are large pieces still missing. Making it even more difficult is that this is still a very painful memory for the families and even in the community where I live (a few minutes south of Santa Rosa).

Hope that answers your questions (without getting myself in too much trouble).

Mike

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (pdx-cfi-90.navi.net - 208.211.19.90) on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 01:54 pm:

Mike, considering I've never, ever been able to verify many of a certain author's claims (including that Arthur Leigh Allen was spotted by police walking near the rural Santa Rosa crime scenes), I tend to believe his "Sulley Road" blurb was not an intentional diversion.

By Kendra (Kendra) (pluto.cds1.net - 216.174.197.132) on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 02:02 pm:

Mike- Thanks for sharing. I feel that your input is and has been very valuable.
I had thought before that perhaps "Sully Rd" was a seudonym for Franz Valley Rd., however, as Ed has mentioned before, both were referenced to in Zodiac. This lead me to believe that they were 2, distict locations, one fictional and one real. Now, I see that, perhaps, the mention of both Franz Valley Rd. and Sully Rd. in Zodiac was just another editorial error.

By Ed N. (Ed_N) (acac060a.ipt.aol.com - 172.172.6.10) on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 02:49 pm:

Since Graysmith got the idea to name Allen "Starr" in Zodiac from Starr Street in Vallejo, a couple of blocks from where Darlene once lived at 560 Wallace Street, I wonder if he just took elements from FranZ Valley Road, altered them a bit, and came up with "Sully" Road. Just a thought...

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (pdx-cfi-90.navi.net - 208.211.19.90) on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 02:51 pm:

More likely someone made the name up and the author published it without double-checking.

By Mike Kelleher (Mike_Kelleher) (12-236-234-235.client.attbi.com - 12.236.234.235) on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 03:55 pm:

I am fairly sure that Graysmith was NOT given the precise location of that site for the reasons that I mentioned above, hence his reference to Sully (probably his own invention). Locations were more than passingly important in the SRH murders, especially locations were the bodies were dumped. There were several different locations on Franz Valley Rd. and, as Kendra could probably tell you, the topography along that road is both interesting and relevant to the case. At any rate, I would discount an editorial error in this case -- at least from what I know of it.

By Kendra (Kendra) (pluto.cds1.net - 216.174.197.132) on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 11:41 pm:

Mike, I was being facetious about Graysmith's "editorial" error. In light of what you have stated, perhaps Graysmith's portrayal of "Sully Rd." was a seudonym for a road or pathway off of Franz Valley Rd.

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-17-30.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.154.17.30) on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 07:58 am:

Does it seem a bit unusual to anyone that SRSO would "hold back" innocuous information on where Allen was supposedly seen then give it to Mike K? Especially in light of the fact that Mike does not answer Tom's question on the source of his information.

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-17-30.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.154.17.30) on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 08:11 am:

One thing that always struck me as implausible about the supposed spotting of Allen was this: how, exactly was he ID'd? If he were recognized when he was spotted he would certainly have been picked up. If he were not immediately recognized, but ignored, how likely is it that some investigator came across him or his picture sometime later and suddenly realized "Hey! That's the guy we saw walking along the road, to whom we paid zero attention at the time! Think we should go talk to him? Naaaah...." If he drew enough attention when he was spotted to be recognized later, why wasn't he picked up or at least questioned at the time? "Surprised to see" somebody walking away from the scene so soon after the crime that the scene was still being processed, and he's not even questioned? Please.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-139-118.client.attbi.com - 12.224.139.118) on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 09:51 am:

I believe the author made the story up, as he did about Allen's supposed speeding ticket at Lake Berryessa.

The Sonoma County murders have always fascinated me. I'm glad someone (Mike K.) has taken the time to focus on them.

By Kendra (Kendra) (pluto.cds1.net - 216.174.197.132) on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 12:21 pm:

Peter, regarding SRPD'S "holding back" certian information about the SRH (as Mike Kelleher had stated before): My understanding is that they were/are not revealing the precise locations where each body was dumped, in the event that a suspect is caught and can confirm each site with the PD, as proof. I didn't take it to mean anything regarding Allen and Sulley Rd., which in itself is interesting.

Mike, any clarifications?

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-17-65.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.154.17.65) on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 12:37 pm:

"'Sully Road' was mentioned only once, on p. 277." EdN.

I think that refers to both a scene and the Allen sighting.

Either way, it doesn't alter the fact that Mike K seems to be claiing to have infor that was "held back" from Graysmith and everyone else.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (pdx-cfi-90.navi.net - 208.211.19.90) on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 01:13 pm:

Peter:
"Either way, it doesn't alter the fact that Mike K seems to be claiing to have infor that was "held back" from a certain author and everyone else."

I'm sure he does. So?

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-17-65.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.154.17.65) on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 01:32 pm:

So, why is it not being held back any more? Case closed?

By Mike Kelleher (Mike_Kelleher) (marinhousing2.org - 63.195.44.210) on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 01:34 pm:

Kendra (and others), here's a clarification and a few comments.

As to Peter's hyperbole, there are two points: 1) I never mentioned ALA in connection with the murders, and 2) my source is named above. Reading carefully is a good thing. Shooting before loading is not. As anyone even remotely familiar with this kind of crime shoud know, locations are anything but "innocuous." In fact, they are critical to eventually solving the crime, if that's still possible. Anyway, this kind of bantering is silly and, as you know Tom, I just don't want to deal with it. So, onward and upward.

Kendra, you are exactly right. At the time that Graysmith got his information (approximately), there was a specific suspect in mind who had also murdered in two other states. That suspect has since been executed for other crimes. He was actually interrogated more than once in an attempt to tie him to the SRH murders but it never worked out. There is at least one investigator who strongly believes that he was responsible for some, but not all, of the murders. Also, there are still local suspects, but the trail is very, very cold as time continues to pass. One of them is dead, another is missing . . . that kind of thing.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (pdx-cfi-90.navi.net - 208.211.19.90) on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 02:15 pm:

I'm aware of Ted Bundy's one-time status as a suspect in the Sonoma murders. Even Napa County checked him out. A man named Perry and the infamous "Willie the Woodcutter" were also suspected.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (pdx-cfi-90.navi.net - 208.211.19.90) on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 02:37 pm:

The Sonoma victims

Ted Bundy: Napa/Sonoma suspect

Map of victims

Giant Z?

By Mike Kelleher (Mike_Kelleher) (12-236-234-235.client.attbi.com - 12.236.234.235) on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 02:48 pm:

Hi Tom:

Those are good background pages. They point out one of the big problems with the investigation during the 70s -- it was far too broad to really nail down any good information. Bundy was a suspect in a few of the murders but not all of them. So were several others. It's a real tragedy in these parts because of the victims. I guess you know how vulnerable they were, and how very young two of them were. The crimes didn't get much press outside of the area but they are still a tender subject out here.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (pdx-cfi-90.navi.net - 208.211.19.90) on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 02:58 pm:

It sure seems that if you lived in California during the 1960s and 1970s you were probably either a murderer or a victim. Unbelieveable.

I'll be glad when there is a resource available to learn more about the Sonoma crimes, either in print or on the Internet.

By Mike Kelleher (Mike_Kelleher) (12-236-234-235.client.attbi.com - 12.236.234.235) on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 03:03 pm:

Yeah, Tom, you're right about that. Both N.Cal and S.Cal were flooded with these killers. What got me started in this area in the first place was a kid I went to school with for 8 years and was one of my best friends. His name was Herb Mullin. I'm sure you know about him and all his murders. Geez. Anyway, that's history now, thank God.

As to the Sonoma killings, there isn't much available outside of the immediate area. There isn't much interest, either. That's too bad, but it's been the story of these crimes for nearly 30 years.

Maybe someday.

By Ed N. (Ed_N) (acc1e5e2.ipt.aol.com - 172.193.229.226) on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 06:41 pm:

I'd often wondered why RG decided to pin the SR coed murders on Z, until I realized that:

1) RG's thesis was that Allen was Z, and
2) Allen lived in SR at the time, and
3) Z claimed he'd no longer announce his crimes, then
4) it was likely those murders were Z's work based on proximity to at least one of his previous crimes (LB), therefore
5) Allen was Z and the coeds were his victims.

Unfortunately for RG, it's circular reasoning, and also guilt by association. He pulled that one with the "painting party" debacle that I pointed out some time back. While I still favor Allen as a suspect, pinning these unsolved murders on Allen/Z doesn't do much for RG's case.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-19167.linkline.com - 64.30.222.109) on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 07:32 pm:

It is a point of interest that Harvey Carignan or
otherwise lovingly called Harv'The Hammer, got a traffic ticket in Sonoma County(where else in Ca did he drive but didn't get any tickets to document his presence in the area?) June 20,1973.
He would "drive endlessly" and pick up hitchhiking teen age girls some of whom he murdered.He had enormous strength.I think of the tossed females in SR.
After his serial murder spree ended police found a map with some 181 small red circles on it some of which were in CA.Some of the circles were where he had his car worked on for example,but other circled areas were spots where young females were murdered-some have never been solved.
In most of his known crimes he employed a hammer- so this is a big drawback in connecting him to the Santa Rosa series.He was considered shrewd and cunning,but was he capable of using different means of dispatching victims?
All the basics are there -picking up teen hitchhikers and possessing immense strength with a lust for driving everywhere seeking young female victims.Some were as young as 13.
Harvs'health at 75 + is poor,but don't fear,he has a TV and lots of books.He's at the maximum security prison at Oak Park Heights in liberal laws(you can't be sentenced to more than 40 years for any one crime!)Minnesota.
Ann Rules book about ol' Harv' is OK.There is a lot more I fear.
He seeks females to be pen pals(after all he was dubbed The Want Ad Killer) and more...Kendra(he likes baked goods!)...Sandy,other ladies of the Board- he's single and oh, so strong, as he does pull ups from the bars of his cell!

By Law123 (Law123) (cache-ntc-af07.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.26.172) on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 11:00 pm:

I think developing a database of info on the Santa Roas homicides is a great idea. Maybe even an energetic boardmember could start a website. Discussion, emails, help develop interest and even leads.

ps Im new to this board Im a lawyer in calif I read lots of profiler books by ressler etc and the sonoma murders interest me..but they dont get attention since Bundy leads didnt pan out (he wouldnt have stayed around long enuf to kill all those girls) And its not Z's MO to dump bodies.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-139-118.client.attbi.com - 12.224.139.118) on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 12:58 am:

Howard,
Good job! I forgot about ol' Harv "The Hammer".
However, he sounds far too intellectual to be a killer. Just kidding...

By Kendra (Kendra) (pluto.cds1.net - 216.174.197.132) on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 02:43 am:

Howard-
Poor 'ol Harv is looking for female pen pals, eh? I might just send him one of my bagels with a file inside it.

By Mike Kelleher (Mike_Kelleher) (adsl-63-195-44-210.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net - 63.195.44.210) on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 06:52 am:

Good Morning, Howard:

That's a really interesting piece of information. I had not heard it before, nor has anyone at the SO mentioned it to me. In fact, no one up there ever mentioned HC. Certainly, your factoid is something that should at least be given a hard look. Maybe HC just fell below their radar for some reason.

This is a big county, Howard. I wonder if you could nail down some more details on the ticket. For example, a more precise location? A time? A vehicle description? There are partial vehicle descriptions for a few of these murders, and a pretty good timeline for most of the victims. Perhaps something will match up.

Thanks for that interesting lead.

Mike

By William Baker (Bill_Baker) (lsanca1-ar16-4-47-001-051.lsanca1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net - 4.47.1.51) on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 09:24 am:

Howard, your capacity for locating and nurturing otherwise obscure nuggets of potentially valuable info, while doing so in an unpretentious and intelligent manner, is truly enviable.

I'm always interested in any hitchhiker killings that occurred in the early 70s, although (with deference to Tom and this being off-topic) that interest is exclusive of Z's suspected involvement, with which I find it difficult to draw a connection. I'm speaking of our May 1971 shooting death of Karen Signore (Peter's friend). Clearly, it would be speculative and a reach to think that a man who kills hitchhiking women/girls in CA, in 1973, using a hammer, would have been responsible for a shooting two years before. I recall that hitchhiker crimes, deaths as well as sexual assaults, were quite common back then. Police investigators at that time relied heavily on teletype broadcasts to disseminate info to other agencies, in search of similar occurrences, which wasn't always effective or comprehensive. Even so, I can't imagine that the capture of a suspected killer specializing in these types of crimes wouldn't have reached my desk at the time. As it is, I don't recall hearing of him before.

I don't know how extensive your knowledge is of ol' Harv, or if you have access to any of the documentation, but it would be helpful to know: if he was operating in 1971; if the map with the red circles reflects activity in our area; and if there is anything to suggest that he killed by any means other than with a hammer.

Perhaps Mr. Kelleher could shed some light on the likelihood of a hammer-wielding serial killer evolving from someone who previously used a handgun to dispatch his victims. I know that individual serial killers are often known for employing everything from strangulation to knives to firearms, but the penchant for using a hammer seems unique enough to provide some material for theorizing as to such a shift in weaponry.

By Alan Cabal (Alan_Cabal) (12.81.120.154) on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 10:26 am:

On the face of it, it seems pretty unlikely. A hammer is a pretty unique choice of weapons. But then again, if Howard is right about a Beatles connection, it makes perfect sense.

By Ed N. (Ed_N) (acbe0957.ipt.aol.com - 172.190.9.87) on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 10:54 am:

Harry Martin theorized that Hunter may have been responsible for the SR murders as well as having written the Z letters. Now that is pretty far out... I figure that an as-yet-unidentified serial killer is responsible. HC is a good one to check out, just in case...

By Mike Kelleher (Mike_Kelleher) (adsl-63-195-44-210.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net - 63.195.44.210) on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 11:05 am:

Hi William:

One of the murders had stong similarities to the HC m/o and signature, while a second was possible. Most did not. In fact, the girls and young women were not all murdered in the same way, although many had overt similiarities. As to the likelihood that a hammer-wielding killer could (or would) use other means, I don't think we can discount it. The traditional thinking in this area, which really stems from Ressler/Douglas, et.al. of the BSU days, is out of date. That was a formula-driven approach to serial killers and it really didn't last too long for practical police work. It still hangs on but seems to get weaker each time a new profile is issued. A better way to look at profiling is through behavior, using as few formulae as possible and talking in terms of probabilities so as to not misdirect the folks who have to carry out the investigation. In this sense, I'd give HC a lower probability but I would never exclude him based on weapons or tactics. I'd look for something harder to hang my hat on. For example, the date that Howard brought up is something hard -- something that can be followed to see where it leads. If it opens up possiblities we should keep following. If it dies off we drop it, regardless of whether or not it fits an assumed profile. I know that it sounds silly given what I do with my life but I don't have that much faith in profiling. I still prefer the harder sider of an investigation.

By Ed N. (Ed_N) (acbe0957.ipt.aol.com - 172.190.9.87) on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 11:08 am:

Here's a couple of links to reviews of Ann Rule's 1983 The Want Ad Killer (under the pseudonym of "Andy Stack"):

Epinions.com
Amazon.com

There doesn't appear to be much more about Harv "The Hammer" online that I could find...

By Kendra (Kendra) (pluto.cds1.net - 216.174.197.132) on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 01:52 pm:

Another reason why RG associated the S.R. coed murders with Z was the asian character on Kim Wendy Allen's soy barrel. It looks strikingly similar to Z's symbol used on the "Excorcist" letter.
I do not believe that Z was responsible for the S.R. murders, just inspired by the character on the barrel (which was shown in one of the articles in the Press Democrat).

By J Eric (J_Eric) (dsl081-238-156.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net - 64.81.238.156) on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 03:19 pm:

Sometimes in the rural areas a road is known by the name of a long-time resident living on it, such as "Rancher Jones' Road." John & Donnie Sullivan live at 197 Franz Valley School Road in Calistoga, CA. I don't know for how long. If the name "Sullivan" appears on their mailbox, perhaps it gave rise to RG calling the street Sully Road??? Anyone local care to drive by just to check out my long-distance theory??

By Kendra (Kendra) (pluto.cds1.net - 216.174.197.132) on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 06:07 pm:

One thing about Kim Wendy Allen: I remembered (and found, again) today that there was an article in the Press Democrat (March 9, 1972) that the murderer of Kim Wendy Allen was probably injured while throwing her body over the embankment.
"Whoever dumped the body of the strangled young woman over a 20-foot embankment on Enterprise rd. south of Santa Rosa may have injured his leg or arm.
"That possibility was released by sheriff's officials this morning in further efforts to identify the victim or her slayer.
"Sheriff's Lt. Charles Kish (this part is unreadable due to microfilm impairment) the top of the embankment where the body was found indicating someone may have slipped and fallen down the incline.
"About 10 feet below that spot, he said, there was an impression in the moist loam about a foot long and 14 inches deep that may have been made by a person's leg."

Any of the top suspects in the S.R. homicides have injuries around this time?

By Zander Kite (Zk) (gsa-24-197-136-36.sc.charter.com - 24.197.136.36) on Friday, November 08, 2002 - 01:26 am:

If I'm not mistaken, there was a match to a Carignan vehicle in that area. What made it interesting, was that it was a rare vehicle description, something like a green truck with a fold-down silver camper with a dent. Another point of comparison is that (apparently) Harv did not strangle his victims. The beauty of the Carignan case is that (like McDuff) he was facing execution for murder as far back as 1950(I think). They were nice enough to give him a second chance.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-19167.linkline.com - 64.30.222.109) on Friday, November 08, 2002 - 01:56 pm:

Mike,Bill,
Ann rule is the only one I know of that has a fairly good take on the HC case(besides a few detectives)and some of her research is found in The Want Ad Killer.
The detectives,etc,given in the book, are a great help for tracing them down.
There is some info scattered on the net,but you have to really search under killers,serial killers,murders,etc.
Of course,there is a little info under his name.Trying different engines was a help to although I favor Goggle.
Alan,
Harv' didn't care for the Beatles so he's out!
Kendra,
Make sure they are whole wheat as Harv' has to keep up his strength!Parole is around the corner(did I say coroner?)
Tom,You are right as Harv' loves to read and watch documentries!
There was at least one victim that HC strangled.
I had a friend that was attacked by HC in a parking lot in Rendono Beach,CA.As she was walking to the store in broad day light(!)he came up behind her and literally hoisted her up with both hands around her neck and began strangling her.She lost consciousness.
Later,she awoke lying in his front seat with her head on his lap and he,with one hand on her head,holding her down!
She knew this would be her only chance to escape and she began kicking violently and was able to free herself and jump out of the car-long story how she did this.
She ran as fast as she could and contacted the police.This was in the early seventies.
Sometime later as she was gazing out of her window she saw the same car and man driving slowly by her house.She remembered that he had her purse with her drivers license and that he must be 'following up!'She called the police but he left before they got there.
And there's that red circled map!

By Mike Kelleher (Mike_Kelleher) (12-236-234-235.client.attbi.com - 12.236.234.235) on Friday, November 08, 2002 - 03:40 pm:

Thanks, Howard. Can I take that to mean you have no more information on the Sonoma traffic stop? If you'd rather do a back-channel on this, feel free.

Mike

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-19167.linkline.com - 64.30.222.109) on Friday, November 08, 2002 - 10:24 pm:

Mike,
Ann Rule recounts the HC ticket.She also mentions the string of SR 87s,but not by name.She personally interviewed officials who were working the HC case and the ticket came up.I think it is suggestive.He drove for hours and hours.He drove through N CA during the time of the SR string.He loved to pick up young women hitchhiking and as young as 13.We know,now, that he murdered them.He was into sexual perversion and many of his victims were subjected to these kinds of crimes and then he killed them. Sterling and Weber were both 12 as I recall.To Harvey these would be marks.
One thing I found of interest,was that wig hairs and oil were found on one of the victims person.Harv'worked as a station attendent and auto mechanic.
Let's face it there isn't much to go on as to viable suspects.Take away the hammer aspect and he looks really good-but,that's all-looks good.
He had amazing strength.His Alaska days should be looked at more closely as this is where he killed first(?).
We know that some serial killers experiment and the SR killer certainly seemed to be experimenting on his victims.Possibly during this series ,if it was HC,he may have been methodizing his killing techinques and later tired of them and shifted to his beloved hammer attacks.
Some of the victims were strangled and we know HC strangled some of his victims,but later hammered them.
Some authorities indicate that HCs victims could be even more numerous than the ones that are known to be his,because he travelled constantly and possessed an overwhelming desire to kill very young women-and those scores of red circles,some of them indicating N CA areas, bother me to no end.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-19167.linkline.com - 64.30.222.109) on Friday, November 08, 2002 - 10:55 pm:

Forgot to mention that there is a video documentry called Harv' the Hammer 19.95.Go to Teoma search engine and click Harvey Carignan.Zia Film Entertainment(!)carries the video.

By Mike Kelleher (Mike_Kelleher) (12-236-234-235.client.attbi.com - 12.236.234.235) on Saturday, November 09, 2002 - 12:28 am:

Thanks, Howard.

By Sandy (Sandy) (12-233-103-176.client.attbi.com - 12.233.103.176) on Monday, November 11, 2002 - 04:20 pm:

One of the SR murders Eva Blau came from Oakland, her parents were living in Oakland at the time of her killing. Her father, and uncle who was also a SF Doctor. Were partners in a printing Co.in Oakland. This was the first time I was able to make a connection between a victim and any of the suspects. My RH suspect worked at this company. He also lived close to the A. Clery girl in Oakland who was a Z like 187. He lived 4 blocks from her. R.G. spelled her last name Glery in his first book.

By William Baker (Bill_Baker) (lsanca1-ar16-4-47-008-057.lsanca1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net - 4.47.8.57) on Monday, November 11, 2002 - 11:40 pm:

To Christen (who started this thread and gave it the title), I must tell you that when I see homicide misspelled as you did, I immediately lose any respect for the writer. And don't tell me it was a typo, because all too many people commit the same egregious error out of ignorance. The same goes for those who pronounce the word "home-a-cide," instead of "hawm-a-cide." I know, I know, it's an acceptable secondary pronunciation, but it's like fingernails on a blackboard to me, much like the affect that referring to The City by the Bay as "Frisco" has on city residents. I know that my personal pet peeves have little or no impact on the continued misspellings and pronunciations, but I needed to say it anyway. Sorry to flame, but it's been one of those days.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-139-118.client.attbi.com - 12.224.139.118) on Monday, November 11, 2002 - 11:48 pm:

Christen was a great source of info on Allen...don't know what became of him.

By Law123 (Law123) (cache-ntc-af07.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.26.172) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 10:24 pm:

Heres a link to details of the Santa Rosa victims...dump sites are more specific as well as details, especially interestimg is the bondage, a signature unlike that of "the hammer" (want ad killer) although there may have been a victim killed by a different killer than the rest, maybe the 13 girl with the broken neck(?) interesting.
http://www.se7en-x.com/zodiac/unsolved.htm

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-139-118.client.attbi.com - 12.224.139.118) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 10:31 pm:

That's a link to a website that basically copied a certain author's text. Nothing new there...

By Law123 (Law123) (cache-ntc-af07.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.26.172) on Saturday, December 28, 2002 - 08:54 pm:

Anyone have copies of the news articles on the coed murders in Sonoma area...ill pay for reasonable costs