Other Related Cases At That Time and Locale
Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Other Possible Zodiac Victims: Other Related Cases At That Time and Locale
|By Scab (webcache.kcls.org - 22.214.171.124) on Tuesday, September 12, 2000 - 08:24 pm:|
In August of 1969, I recall a double murder to which Zodiac had erroneously been linked to. In the south San Jose area, namely the Almaden Valley two teenage girls had been stabbed during a Sunday picnic at the top of a knoll, located at the base of Cahalan Road which had crossed Blossom Hill Road. The girls names were Deborah Gay Furlong and Kathy Ann Snoozy. They had attended Oak Grove High School several years before I did. Graysmith makes a breif mention of this crime in his book. A San Jose City College student named Karl Werner was later charged and sentenced. Do any of you remember this murder? What became of the defendant or where and how long his time was served? Thanks, from Scab of Haight-Ashbury.
|By Ed N. (spider-tn023.proxy.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Tuesday, September 12, 2000 - 08:56 pm:|
Werner was sentenced to three life terms on 9-24-1971 for the murders. He is presumably still rotting and losing anal retention in jail.
|By Michael (ip68.lancaster5.pa.pub-ip.psi.net - 188.8.131.52) on Thursday, September 14, 2000 - 01:01 pm:|
I remember the case well. He was caught after killing another girl in Saratoga.
Presumably he is still in prison. As i recall he stabbed the Furlong and Snoozy something
like 169 times.
|By Howard (dialup-184.108.40.206.losangeles1.level3.net - 220.127.116.11) on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 02:19 am:|
The killing of the two girls by Werner demonstrates my point-the killer did not have a relationship with the girls and yet they collectively were stabbed some 300 times! The April 71'Bilik case is another tragedy as she was stabbed about 50 times by the same guy that killed the two girls in Aug. of 69. In this case the perp did not have a relationship with her either. The Bates stabbing,which I believe began as a hands on strangling;which reports indicate isn't easy; but due to the fact she was 'free range'and a fighter,etc.it turned into a beating/stabbing,hence, the 42 stabs/throat slashes.The number of stabs,wounds,etc. inflicted does not prove ,in this case,the victim knew or was personal with the killer! P.S. I liked what EdN. said about Werner 9/12/00!Ed I heard he was paroled to your area!Naw.
|By Tom Voigt (ac8a5f16.ipt.aol.com - 18.104.22.168) on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 02:23 am:|
I thought Karl Warner went to school with the victims...either that or he lived near them.
|By Ed N. (spider-tn052.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 11:51 am:|
According to "Knife Murders: San Jose Student Held in Slaying Of Three
Girls," by Paul Avery (San Francisco Chronicle, 4-30-1971, pp. 1, 28), Werner
was arrested on April 29th, 1971, and was "a brilliant San Jose City College
student." He was described, interestingly enough, as being "outstanding in
physics and mathematics and, as a hobby, has been building his own computer."
Werner attended high school with Kathy Snoozy and Deborah Furlong, and at the time of their murders in August 1969, lived only a few blocks from them, so it seems doubtful they were completely random murders; he may not have known them personally, but probably saw them at school and in his neighborhood.
Avery wrote that Werner stabbed Kathy Bilek 49 times on April 11th, 1971, and it would seem that, in contrast to Furlong and Snoozy, she was randomly targeted by Werner, because the teenage girl who tipped police said that on April 9th, a strange man had approached her in Villa Montalvo County Park to go hiking with him, the same park where Bilek would be murdered two days later. Avery related that "she became frightened when he became angry after she refused... and ran from him to an area where there were more people around." Park rangers identified him from her description, because he was a frequent visitor to the park. Police recovered a knife from his rooming house, but did not confirm whether it was the murder weapon.
|By Michael (ip2.lancaster6.pa.pub-ip.psi.net - 126.96.36.199) on Friday, September 29, 2000 - 01:19 pm:|
Howard, Very interesting point. I agree that the number of stab wounds does not imply
the relationship of perp and victim. But I am still of the thought that Bates is NOT a
|By Anonymous (mryprt11.montereybay.com - 188.8.131.52) on Monday, October 02, 2000 - 12:25 pm:|
I lived in the Noe Valley at the time and thought how strange it was that two of the
victims attributed to the Zodiac were killed in Bart's a bar on 29th and Dolores. Either
these two were not by him or they were copycat crimes.
At the time it occured to me that if they were the Zodiac there was a connection to one of the victims simply because it was an obscure location, the person lived in that area, the person knew that the bar did little business at the time. If there is no connection to your main suspect then the shooting at Bart's is copycat.
Since I couldn't find that on your website(will look again)maybe I am wrong so will go back and check. Kal
|By Esau (Esau) (cc129455-a.rcrdva1.ca.home.com - 184.108.40.206) on Sunday, January 07, 2001 - 04:38 pm:|
Hey Howard, can you give some details of the Los Angeles case that you linked to Bruce Davis? I haven't heard much about this case. I don't know the names but I think you know which ones I'm talking about.
|By Howard (Howard) (dialup-220.127.116.11.losangeles1.level3.net - 18.104.22.168) on Monday, January 08, 2001 - 12:54 am:|
Esau-Which ones? Davis is a suspect in several unsolves.One was a couple that was found in an alley in the Silver LAKE district(Magnolia st. -Riverside hark?runs right by)in L.A.; they each had been stabbed over 40 times(I have some of the autopsy photos-another reason I'm for the death penality!).The late Det.LT. Earl Deemer and a partner found a typed note ,all in caps, in Doreen Gauls room which never got turned in as evidence-long story. The note ended as the "Zodiac killer" and a "Z"(see my site and book for full story ; note how few times the Zodiac used the Z).Bruce Davis was staying at this same Manor and the Family bus was seen in the area before the attack.The attack was 11/21/69' on a full moon.Then (11/5/69')there was a young man by the name of Phillip Haught-called Zero by the Family(close to Hautz)who was shot in the head with a 22.Of course, the Family said he was playing Russian roulette-thems poor odds as the PD found that only one shell from a fully loaded chamber had been expended!Bruce Davis was in the room and had the gun in his hand at one point."Zero knew too much" according to one source.There was Robin Graham who was abducted by a man on 11/15/70 on a full moon. This man had been seen earlier working under the hood of her car. His car was a primed Corvette.She had dropped her car off earlier at PIER (water)One Imports and got into her boyfriends car for an evening out. She later got in her car ,drove off, and in a short while it stalled out . The Corvette driver pulled up behind her car and commenced helping her get the car started.They were seen driving off in his car.She has never been found. Her parents told me they are still waiting for news and still have the same # and house-thats love to the end!While having dinner with them they told me that a woman wrote them when the Times did a story on Robin.She said that she too had stalled out on the road and that a man stopped (in a Corvette )and came up to her and said he was an off duty detective and that he would give her a ride. She refused. After hearing the letters contents I set about in finding her. Through some means-an Agency-she was located. She retold the story. When I showed her Bruce Davis' picture she said it looked like him-especially the eyes, she never forgot them."There are a hell of a lot more[victims] down there"[southern CA] said Zodiac";you are only finding the easy ones". The Z also said" the reason I'm writing to the Times[L.A.] is this-they don't bury me in the back like the others do."All of the above cases -and more ,were mainly "down there " or so. CA!
|By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-tc082.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Monday, January 08, 2001 - 11:23 pm:|
Howard: what's your e-mail address? I've got something interesting I'd like to run by you. E-mail me at ZodiacFiles@aol.com.
|By Howard (Howard) (dialup-126.96.36.199.losangeles1.level3.net - 188.8.131.52) on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 11:55 pm:|
A Zodiac victim?On 4/19/70 a young beautiful Eurasian girl was found HANGING from a tree near BOOTjack camp.After some investigation the girl's name was discovered-Pam Tan. She was found on MT. Tamalpais.Those that wish can do some research on the net(Direct Hit is kool)concerning what many call MT. Tam.Think of Zodiac and MT. Diablo. On Tam ,on a clear day, one can see Diablo.These two mountains overlook the Bay area.The girl's name Tam made me think of the MT's popular name Tam. I thought of Donner Pass and Donna Lass and poet( the desk 'poem'/and"I am not sick. I am insane.But that will not stop the game.",etc.) Zodiac.Now, do we have Tan and MT. Tam?I thought I would find water (there, of course, are streams/lakes on Tam)somewhere in the name. It seems Tam means either "coast" which implies "water" ,in many cases ,and the other popular meaning is "BAY".The PAis (PAt?)means mountain.The Indians thought the mountain was sacred.The sharp investigator that found out the girl's identity was Marin coroner investigator Keith Craig. C had found a key in ms. Tan's pocket and traced it to a Greyhound bus station locker in the area.C then found an address book in her locker with phone numbers (EdN.s # was in there!)and traced one to the Univ. of Chicago. There was a professor there that met Tan in 1966.Tan had lived in New York after living in Chicago.Tan was now living in S.F. since March 22,1970(the day K. Johns was abducted). She was making movies.When she was found she had on a military field jacket(military theme and place name Bootjack Camp?) three sweaters(related to Mageau?!),blue jeans and sandals. She was hanging by a rope and a electric cord from a tree branch on a steep hill.Officials thought the girl had committed suicide! Oh yes-they found leaves in her long hair and that ol' double clove hitch knot would have been very difficult to tie-really?We now have the Great Tandini!I was reminded of Zs chilling remarks-"...I shall CHANGE the WAY the collecting of slaves .I shall no longer announce to anyone WHEN I comitt my murders ,they shall LOOK like routine robberies,killings of anger,& few fake accidents,etc"(suicides? all EMPS mine). That is a pretty big "etc."!Zodiac said "By rope" in his 10/27/70 Halloween card.Rope was used in the 63' 87' and at LB.In his sick torture letter he writes of 'hanging his slaves'-"...Others will HANG by their thumbs & burn in the sun".Was ms. Tan ,found on MT. Tam, one of Zodiac's "etcs"?The Marin Cororner's office probably still has the address book of Tan's containing names(no surnames) and phone numbers. This would be a good project for a local up there-see if any of those names look familiar!Aside from the facts of the case I, of course ,was just musing out loud,but it is interesting.FYI
|By Howard (Howard) (dialup-184.108.40.206.losangeles1.level3.net - 220.127.116.11) on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 01:29 am:|
On May Day(holiday again and the major sabbat witchcraft day of Beltane or the Feast of Fires ;think of the couple in the 63' 87' and the perp's desire to burn the victims; also,on May first, it was The Last Quarter Phase of the Moon-a Z time)a young hazel -eyed blond ,5'6" and with an athletic build (like Bates)by the name of Nikki Alexandra Benedict was found on a path near a swale(water element?)bleeding from two stab wounds to her chest an inch apart(we will 'accept' this ,as info is always withheld). The knife had a small blade(like the Bates knife).The SDs Sherriff Dept.were very helpful and are interested in any help they can get and certainly not arrogant.They are the opposite of the RSPD! It was amazing in that the 87' took place in 67', and they still act as though it was yesterday .They follow up on all leads.The incident took place in the town of Poway near Riverside and just a short time after the 4/30/67'missives were received in Riverside.The typed 66'message warned that "She[Bates] is not the first [honeymoon couple slain by the SEAside in SD in 62'?]and she will NOT be the LAST"[Nikki?].The 67' note said "There will be more".Nikki was killed just about a day later!Like Bates ,she had to have been stalked ,as this was the first time the teen walked home and had not taken the bus.Was she one of the "There will be More? A day later -after the notes were received - Nikki was slain; sure sounds like it's a Z maybe!
|By Eduard Versluijs (Eduard) (erasmuscollege.nl - 18.104.22.168) on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 12:15 am:|
Howard,what can you tell me about March 4th and 5th 1971. Was there something special
(like a perticular moon-setting).
Your theories are interesting....
|By Eduard Versluijs (Eduard) (erasmuscollege.nl - 22.214.171.124) on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 12:19 am:|
Howard, Can you contact me?
|By Chrissy (Chrissy) (dial-78.farmtel.net - 126.96.36.199) on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 11:14 pm:|
Please sir, would you be so kind as to slow down enough to add paragraphs to your entries? It is frying my eyes trying to read these long, unbroken monologs.
Regrettably there are 50-250 serial killers active at any one time. I sure that was a lesser number in the early seventies, but not substantially. Even if "Peek through the Pines" is z, the man could have taken any victim up there if he'd a mind to, or as in the case of the school bus bomb threats it could have been a brag/no-fact. If one includes a Lass homicide by z, then one automatically must review Johns.
I don't really trust all the number tabulations, I think it may be giving the guy more credit than he deserves or we ought to find an engineer to convict. These cases are loaded with coincidences, look-a-likes and those early code games galore. I once saw perfectly planted trees on a mountain in Hawaii, when I got close enough to see I realized my mind, more than nature insisted on making rows out of the evidence at hand. The point needs to be to eliminate suspects not add to the wash.
Who had motive and opportunity? Z's motive, simply stated, was to kill, but not knowing for certain who z is leaves us with anyone who might have been in the area any of these crimes took place that resemble the composite drawings. I simply would not trust the writings z produced to be loaded with anything but bragging and some of that bragging was assuredly intentionally misleading.
|By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-tc041.proxy.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 11:29 pm:|
Chrissy: We know for a fact (as far as I'm concerned anyway) that he did write to mislead on occasion. His apparent claim of two victims in August 1969 (obviously referencing Snoozy and Furlong, who were murdered by someone else), and his apparent claim of murdering Radetich, even though the perp had been identified several days before Z even wrote his letter. Most seem to make the assumption that he was truthful except where he can be shown to have lied, but, because of the two false claims I mentioned, I'm not really sure I believe everything Z wrote.
|By Esau (Esau) (cc129455-a.rcrdva1.ca.home.com - 184.108.40.206) on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 06:41 am:|
I'm not so sure that Z was referring to Snoozy and Furlong and to Radetich. Maybe he was referring to out of state murders. It is possible. There was no VICAP in 1969.
|By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-tb084.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 09:48 pm:|
That's always possible, Esau. However, Snoozy and Furlong were murdered before Z said he'd change his tactics, so there'd be no reason to think he'd murdered someone out of state at that point. That's why I think he actually was referring to them, in an attempt to mislead. As far as Radetich goes, however, you might be correct.
|By Chrissy (Chrissy) (dial-71.farmtel.net - 18.104.22.168) on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 04:35 pm:|
I think the most glaring mislead was in the school bus threats.
|By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-tc063.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 05:45 pm:|
I don't think it was necessarily only to mislead the cops into wasting time looking for a bus bomb that didn't exist, but also to put a big scare in parents and schoolchildren (it did) and to draw cops away from looking for him and have them instead riding shotgun in schoolbuses (the less cops on the case, the more likely he was to get away).
|By Edward (Edward) (adsl-63-204-75-134.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net - 126.96.36.199) on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 06:27 pm:|
One other thing we might think about in the bus threat: perhaps Zodiac worked with or around children. In a school perhaps. Where he could watch his handiwork first hand.
|By Linda (Linda) (207-172-145-231.s40.as7.fdk.md.dialup.rcn.com - 188.8.131.52) on Saturday, February 03, 2001 - 01:41 am:|
Yes, I agree that the bus bomb missives were to mislead and frighten the daylights out of all. I can picture Zodiac rolling back, chuckling silently to himself over the control he'd commanded with what we now know was his apparent, idle threat...
However, I do have a point I'd like to bring up regarding school busses here, but since it involves a suspect and not victim (as this thread is identified), please see: "Other Suspects: Threats and Retractions"
|By Howard (Howard) (dialup-184.108.40.206.losangeles1.level3.net - 220.127.116.11) on Saturday, February 03, 2001 - 02:11 am:|
Chrissy-Thanks for the admonition.I am the world's worst typist,but I will try! As I see the case from my perspective,Bruce Davis was involved in two 87's; one on July 27(full moon)and he was found on the 31st the same postmark date on Zs letters.The other 87'was on August 27 of 69'(full moon)note one month apart;then the LB attack on the 27th of September!. These could be the "missing victims" Z mentioned in the November 9 69' communication.
|By Howard (Howard) (dialup-18.104.22.168.losangeles1.level3.net - 22.214.171.124) on Monday, February 05, 2001 - 01:25 am:|
As Zodiac stated in his 71' missive :"...they are only finding the easy ones,[victims]there are a hell of a lot more down there"[so. Ca].A Rose Tashman 18, an Israeli beauty ,was driving home late at night(new moon) on the Hollywood Freeway on 5/18/69';(Bruce Davis had just returned to the U.S. from the UK at this time)when her tire went out.Evidently, a "Good Samaritan"stopped and offered help. Since Rose's trunk key had been stolen earlier,the man could not get in the trunk,so no doubt, he used a ruse like 'I am an off duty officer I will give you a lift to get your car fixed,'etc.When an officer found the car it had "neatly" arranged flares all around Tashman's car but, she was gone. She was found soon after off of Mulholland Dr.,she had been strangled.The case has never been solved ,and is similar to the Graham case on 11/15/'70(full moon) that I posted on this site.Was this one of the "hell of a lot more"[so. CA victims]Z boasted of?I do know that Tashman was going to the same college that Manson had told some of his male followers to check out for female recruits.Did one of them take her trunk key and later follow her that night after previously slitting her tire(as some of the 'killer' books show) to create a slow leak, then pull up, like the guy in the '59 primered Vette' in the Robin Graham case, and offer assistance?I think the northern Ca police were too 'land locked'- they were stuck on local guys and didn't realize it was now the age of the serial /nomadic /killer.
|By Howard (Howard) (dialup-126.96.36.199.losangeles1.level3.net - 188.8.131.52) on Monday, February 05, 2001 - 01:40 am:|
I forgot to mention an 87' that took place in Ashland ,Ky.5/27/'69,note the day-the 27th!,in ref. to my 2/3/01 post above. A man by the name of Darwin Scott,Manson's uncle, was found stabbed to death. The attack had been so viscous that Scott was pinned to the floor! This happened around 10:30 pm ,as this is when the neighbors heard a thud like noise.The police thought it 'strange' that Scott's car keys had been taken and nothing else had been removed. There were reports that M and some followers were in this area at the time.The only mo.is June '69 that doesn't have an 87' on the 27th.May through Sept. has a 87'on the 27th as given!
|By The Giant (Bryan) (bu-wcs3-sand.nipr.mil - 184.108.40.206) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 08:21 am:|
I was of those students on the school bus, 3 police officer on each bus. Lots of
Parents drove there kids to school.
|By Howard (Howard) (dialup-220.127.116.11.losangeles1.level3.net - 18.104.22.168) on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 09:04 pm:|
Unsolves again. Two women Clida Delaney and Nancy Warren were found beaten and
strangled with several leather thongs.Warren was 8 months pregnant and the wife of a CHP
officer. The murders occurred some 6 miles south of the northern CA town of Ukiah on 101.
The thongs had
been left tied around the necks of the victims.
When I interviewed the former District Attorney (and now late)Frank Fowles,he showed me a photograph of the aforementioned victims hands as they were tied up and there are some links which he did not want to talk about.He was certain that the Family had murdered the women to retaliate for some past harassment they got at the hands of the authorities and the locals in that same area. Fowles told me of his firm conviction that Manson was involved in the Zodiac case,but he would not go any further. I already knew what he based his belief on, but I thought it best just to see his evidence,etc.
Was there a Zodiac letter date-a one year anniversary special?When I first scanned the Z letter/date list I knew what I would find -the October 13, 1969 Zodiac letter with that bloody scrap of Stine's shirt!Z had done the same thing on December 20, 1969 to commemorate the LHR 187!Both women were killed exactly one year earlier on Oct. 13,1968!
|By Howard (Howard) (dialup-22.214.171.124.losangeles1.level3.net - 126.96.36.199) on Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 03:26 am:|
Uncle Hs Unsolves-In a letter(9/14/73) to Sgt. Les Lundblad from Dave Peterson ,it
says that a girl by the name of Judith Williamson was abducted Oct.29,1963. Lundblad(and
another very well known detective), unbeknown to some, was using Peterson's research on
astrology to see if there were patterns in each suspected 187 -like the Williamson take.
Peterson compared this 187 to the Bates crime and found that in the Williamson kidnapping ,the Sun,Venus,Mercury,and Neptune were all in the sign of Scorpio which, in astrology is of significance. P then looked at the Bates scence and found that the Sun,Venus,Mercury, and Neptune were all in Scorpio!One was 2 days before Halloween sabbat-a major witchcraft festival day and the Bates 87 was 1 day before this sabbat.Perhaps Ed or someone has more info on the Williamson abduction."She[Bates] was not the first...!"
|By Michael Mc (Michaelmc) (1cust158.tnt2.lancaster.pa.da.uu.net - 188.8.131.52) on Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 08:07 am:|
Howard there are many unsolved murders in Calif at that time not all are the work of
Manson or "Z" . The Ukiah case you mentioned is interesting .....But similar
cases have occured ..ie MO in that area for years. I lived in Mendocino Co for a number of
years and the area is known for its ability to attract Nut cases. And unfortuatly unsolved
homicides. Even as late as 1997 the area was basicly a wild west show, very little law
enforcement and a s**t load of stange people. The hills probably have many secrets to
|By Howard (Howard) (dialup-184.108.40.206.losangeles1.level3.net - 220.127.116.11) on Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 12:39 pm:|
Michael-Thanx for your post!I am fully aware of what you have stated concerning
Mendocino Co.;but I only made mention of this case because of a lot of tie ins to M have
been noted by investigators-such as certain methods of knots used,the woman was a CHP
officer's wife,etc., and that Manson had an intense grudge against the Ukiah
authorities(like the SFPD) ,and the people there. I saw the Zodiac letter date (Oct.
13,69), and that Zodiac would do,like M ,one year anniverseries ,I thought the Oct. 13,68
87 was interesting and the fact M was the primary suspect-and still is. Of interest M kept
a POB in that area.
At Manson's parole he said:"I've killed a lot of people ...I have...I was convicted for things I didn't do[Tate,LaBianca,87s]...my uncle Jess got me a knife and taught me how to use it.My family got me guns and taught me how to use them...you make a mistake and cross me and I'm going to get you."
|By Michael Mc (Michaelmc) (1cust222.tnt1.lancaster.pa.da.uu.net - 18.104.22.168) on Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 07:39 pm:|
Howard, I am not shocked at all, mendocino co is ideal for the manson's of the world.
one thing does trouble me about manson and co. how did they "get away with" so
many murders and get caught so easily. in addition the "family" could't stop
talking. thats why they are all in prison. I really think that the temptation to
"tell all" would be impossible for them. just a thought.
|By Howard (Howard) (dialup-22.214.171.124.losangeles1.level3.net - 126.96.36.199) on Monday, February 12, 2001 - 01:36 am:|
Michael-It is a long story,but it was Susan Aitkins and some others like Linda Kasabian that talked and turned states evidence.When Manson wanted a crime done he would select certain ones to do it based on their background and were told not to tell anyone else.I believe that evidence shows he had a "special relationship" to Bruce Davis and that he and Davis were "very secret" about their plans.I was told by former members that out of all the Family, Davis -next to Manson-was the most feared;he was a "scary guy" and would "stare at you for no apparent reason and follow you." Davis would leave and be gone for periods at a time with no real explanation where he had been-he was very secretive in all his dealings with people. I was told by one former member that Davis "was a cold blooded killer."My book explains to a point,but some things I had to leave out and hopefully,I will be able to give more information in the future.www.zodiacmurders.com
|By Michael Mc (Michaelmc) (1cust183.tnt2.lancaster.pa.da.uu.net - 188.8.131.52) on Monday, February 12, 2001 - 02:04 pm:|
Howard , i am in the process of getting your book. Actually even if your wrong I am
still interested by Manson and his clan.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-68.linkline.com - 184.108.40.206) on Friday, February 23, 2001 - 12:24 am:|
More on Nikki(murdered on May 1, 1967 just a day or two after the arrival of the notes postmarked April 30,1967). See my post above concerning Nikki Benedict.Homicide detectives said the girl had not been raped, but "there were indications she had been killed by a sexual psychopath [some believe Z possessed the same psychopathy] who became enraged at her resistance."This is the same idea I expressed relative to Cheri Bates-she "fought" the assailant and this enraged him even more.The report says "A wound on her neck[recall Bates]indicated a sharp instrument had been used to try to force submission , and bruises on her elbows and knees indicated a struggle had taken place on the ground[like Bates]detectives said...the... murder weapon was a large pocket knife or a small hunting knife."And some question whether or not the Bates killer brought a small knife with the intention of killing her with it!Of course, it was adequate enough to perform- as Cheri's death certificate says "Multiple stab and slashing wound[s] of the abdomen and neck][Nikki]---inflicted with a sharp instrument or knife."This was done with a SMALL knife-she was "almost decapitated"!I believe that both 187's could be by the same perp.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-38.linkline.com - 220.127.116.11) on Tuesday, February 27, 2001 - 02:40 am:|
I had posted the above reference to the Nikki Benedict case as a possible Zodiac. I just got an e-mail from a detective who has now been assigned to the Benedict case!This detective has spoken to the original detective on the case; he is now retired. I learned for the first time that they considered the perp to be the Zodiac ,as a man was seen by Nikki and her friend earlier in the day as he past by both of them twice that day.The friend's description matched that of the future Zodiac! Remember her description was given in May of 1967 and Zodiac was not described and shown in the papers/posters until Oct. of 1969!He is working a murder case now, but wants to meet with me soon.I will keep everyone posted.
|By Michael (Michaelmc) (ip85.lancaster9.pa.pub-ip.psi.net - 18.104.22.168) on Thursday, March 01, 2001 - 12:53 pm:|
Howard, whats the name of the investigator? Is he/she work for the Mendocino Co SO?
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-12.linkline.com - 22.214.171.124) on Monday, March 05, 2001 - 02:06 am:|
Zodiac stated By Knife, By Gun, By fire and By Rope in his Halloween card(10/27/70).
We know that he used a knife and a gun and that he was the one who burned John's car(he
claimed he burned her car; on the 24th of March two days after John's car was burned ;Paul
Watkins -a Family member that was in disfavor almost lost his life as a van he was
sleeping in was set on fire-Bruce Davis was suspected of starting the fire).
But could Pam Tan (see post above )be the "BY Rope" victim Zodiac seems to refer to?She was found 4/19/70 hung on MT. Tamalpias the same day Christopher Edwards had his conversation with a man in S.F. who looked like the Zodiac composite.It would be about six months before the Halloween card was to arrive.It was about six months until the Lake Tahoe Pines card was sent from the date of Lass'disappearence 9/6/70-(the timing was vintage Z).
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-12.linkline.com - 126.96.36.199) on Monday, March 05, 2001 - 02:08 am:|
Michael- I am referring to Poway-SD county- not Mendocino co.
|By Eduard Versluijs (Eduard) (i0286.pvu.euronet.nl - 188.8.131.52) on Monday, March 05, 2001 - 04:03 am:|
On march the 5th 1971 a dead body of a hispanic male was found in Costa Mesa.
He died as course of accidental injuries.
This guy was never identified.
Can this guy be a possible Zodiac-victim?
Zodiac said he would make it look like his victims died by accident.
In the Z-letter only nine days after this body was found Z. talked about the police stumbling on his Riverside-activity.
The Bates connection was found 5 months earlier, why talking about Riverside after so much time?
Maybe he was refering to this death guy because a Riverside street was 2 blocks away from where the body was found.
Costa Mesa is lower situated on a map than Vallejo or SF. Zodiac wrote:" there are more down there". Did he refered to Costa Mesa?
But why would Z. kill someone in CM.
Look at the city-logo....City of the Arts.
And the Arts Z. loved (see Mikado and movies).
On the patch the CM-police wore in 1971 you can see a greek theme and also the word Eureka.
Eureka was also a math-group at the university of Berkley California.
And some of the MB's possible suspects have a connection with Berkley.
Zodiac wrote about:" others of his race"
Was he refering to hispanic-race.
Zodiac also wrote:"none of them would be missed".
If this guy is a Z-victim than Zodiac was right.
Noone is missing this John Doe for over 30 years right now.
|By Michael (Michaelmc) (ip189.lancaster8.pa.pub-ip.psi.net - 184.108.40.206) on Monday, March 05, 2001 - 06:53 pm:|
Howard sorry i was confused i thought that you were talking about the Mendocino case
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx2-27.linkline.com - 220.127.116.11) on Friday, November 23, 2001 - 12:16 pm:|
Some time back I mentioned in posts from time to time that the Gaul/Sharp 187
(11/21/69)and the Robin Graham abduction (11/15/70)were possibly connected.Zodiac's
statement:"I shall NO LONGER announce to ANYONE WHEN I commit my murders,they shall
LOOK LIKE routine robberies[where someone is killed]killings of anger,[like G/S?-there was
a total over kill]& a few fake accidents[Anstey?],etc."[this "etc." is
the key!].There are a lot of N. CA land locked Z people.Bundy and those of his ilk
certainly weren't fixed on just one area!We see that in abundance today.
Since this was 11/9/69 anything AFTER this time could-and I say could- be a suspected Z strike.If we don't 'travel' we can unravel(JJ!).
When we link this chilling "announcement" with the one in 3/13/71(it is a temptation and only that,to go back one year to Marie Anstey's death-even if a death is ruled a "suicide" or "accident"-as in Ansteys case- because Z said these were possible'methods'of killing he would use and it was,as in Lass'case,a Druid new moon,etc.;I have seen many cases that were ruled a "suicide" or "accident" and only later-much later, was it found to be a staged murder)where Zodiac says in regards to the Bates murder"...there are a hell of a LOT MORE["There will be MORE"4/30/67]down there"[So. CA].
I knew that Graham lived on Leymoyne St. in L.A.I just recently learned that some in the Family, including Bruce Davis,lived on 1946 Cerro Gordo Dr.Looking at a map I found that Grahams and Davis' streets are right next to each other!This group on Cerro Gordo had been questioned by the LAPD 1/5/70 in regards to the Gaul/Sharp 187 and is found in a PD report.
Mrs.Graham told me that Robin used to drive by where the LaBiancas were murdered and it can be seen Waverly Dr.is only about a mile from Robins place at the time(1970).She knew people,as did Davis,in the area.
Even if no known or unknown suspect,including mine, could be linked to the SD couple Seaside murders,Bates,Benedict,G/S,Tashman,Habe,Graham(see posts)they could,in light of Zodiacs fearful pronouncements,be Zodiac victims.To rule out any So.CA unsolved murders during this period, would, in my view, be a mistake.It,like the Bates case,could AID or be a part of in unravelling this deep mystery.(EMP mine)Just a thought.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 18.104.22.168) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 02:29 pm:|
I discovered that Robin Graham(see my site and past posts on her)was attending Pierce college in Woodland Hills,CA in 1970.I did a Map Quest to where certain in the Manson were living,including my guy,and found that it is about 7.4 miles from each area!I know my guy went to Mobile St.at times,in Canoga Park and that I found was only three minutes from the college!You will have to search the posts above and the others to see what I find so interesting about these on going close to the right location scans.The late great Det.John St. John( or as he was called by fellow officers,"Jig Saw John"which was for his uncanny ability to solve comlicated homicides)who held badge # one for many years, said -after investigating Robins disappearance and reading a letter I wrote about her case,that Robin Graham could have been one the victims Z wrote about in his 1971 L.A. Times letter.He thought it was the "best explanation" of her case he heard about to date.'
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-111.linkline.com - 22.214.171.124) on Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 10:01 pm:|
Today is the 35th anniversy of Niki Bendicts murder in Poway,CA.She was murdered on
the Celtic or Druid holiday or May Day ,the Feast of Beltain.The teen age athletic blond
was with a friend and a man in a car drove slowly by according to the girlfriend that was
with Niki.He then drove slowly by again and stared at the girls!I learned just last year
from a detective that they secretly believed that the man in the car could have been
Zodiac(that had been my theory long before I spoke to the detective!) because that when
the Z composite was sent to the SDPD it matched Nikis friends description she gave to the
PD in '67,including the crewcut,etc.!
Nikis friend was going to walk the distance with Niki to her home but decided not to.It was the first time Niki walked home instead of taking the bus.she must have been stalked.She walked along a wet marshy area and was suddenly attacked by a man with a "small knife"(I have the autopsy reports which I will post on my site)and she was stabbed and he and tried to cut her throat.She,like Bates,fought back and the attacker may have a heard someone coming(probably the boy who soon found her bleeding on the ground)as he ran away.She struggled for some yards but collapsed from loss of blood.The police found a shoe print .I won't go into some areas,but some evidence doesn't detract from it being Zodiac.
Zodiac had mailed three notes in riverside 4/30/67 saying "THERE WILL BE MORE[victims]."The next day Niki was probably,in my view,that "More."
By a miracle I located her parents by e mail.I hope to speak with that detective soon.It was put off due to a serious case he was working.
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (acc16fd0.ipt.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 10:15 pm:|
Of course, yesterday was the 35th anniversary of the mailing of the "Bates had to die" letters (4-30-1967). It's also interesting to note, Howard, that there is a "Beltane Ranch" located in the Valley of the Moon along Highway 12 between Sonoma and Santa Rosa.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-136.linkline.com - 188.8.131.52) on Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 12:07 am:|
Interesting ED.Beltane was also a time for "sacrifice"of the young, in some areas, according to some scholars.The Feast of Fires!Peterson pointed out it was a "major witchcraft sabbat of Beltane or Feast of Fires!"I think of SB,KJs car,and "By Fire".Her death had astrological signifance(to an adherant) as 5/1/67,the day Niki was killed, was on THE Last Quarter Phase of the moon.I feel very sorry for her and most of allfor those she left behind.Whoever,Zodiac or no,it was a tragic loss.She probably would have had a family of her own.I have always said that not just one young person is killed,but a whole generation is cut off.If Niki(and Cheri) would have had two children and those two got married and had two,it would quite a number in 100 years!No wonder both the OT and NT call for the death penalty for wanton murder.It is the penalty that matches the horrific crime of taking anothers life with malice aforethought.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 184.108.40.206) on Wednesday, July 24, 2002 - 03:55 pm:|
The latest on Robin Graham is that I just found out that her mother was working for an
organization right next door to the LaBianca home on Waverly Dr.in L.A.,when they were
murdered by some in the Manson gang!
The mother told me that Robin had friends in and around the area of the LaBianca home and was in the area constantly.Davis was in this area also.
There was a guy that lived on the same street they called The Phantom and he and some of the others members used to visit him and another guy who lived next door to the home of the La Biancas.
I have Davis next to Pierce College in the Valley where Robin went and Davis visting/living in a house just a few feet from Robins home!
She worked at Pier One Imports in Hollywood and Davis was around Sunset BL.at times.
He was always going places 'for days/weeks at a time' according to ex members and it was a 'mystery where he had been as he would not tell' them his destinations.
See above and under Robin Graham to see why I am researching her 11/15/70 abduction.There is supposed to be a palm print on the air cleaner cover the perp handled on Robins car that was lifted by the PD.The perp left the screws,etc. on the side of the freeway.I just found this out.
Det.John ("Jig Saw")St.John thought that Robin may have been a Z victim.He was a veteran with some 50 years on the force(he held badge ONE as I have said!) and said that I had the best explanation as to her disppearance.
Philip Vanatter of OJ fame, was called into work on the Graham case.
An older Corvette was seen near her car and Davis had a friend that had a Vette.
I am searching for a possible connection to Bates/Johns/ two girls Berkeley incident/Tashman and Graham.As far off/out as it may seem to someone please hold off on judging me and let's see where it goes.It's my deal.More later.
|By Esau (Esau) (12-246-187-137.client.attbi.com - 220.127.116.11) on Thursday, July 25, 2002 - 07:31 pm:|
Howard, when you say "right next door" do you mean the Harold True residence at 3267 Waverly Dr.? That was the house where Manson and company went to a mescaline party in 1968 and if I remember correctly Bugliosi claimed that because of that the LaBianca house was not randomly chosen.
|By Sandy (Sandy) (ppp-64-175-140-111.dialup.wnck11.pacbell.net - 18.104.22.168) on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 06:56 pm:|
Howard, we love you,who are we to judge anyone. I am sure we are all waiting to hear what you find out! Very interesting as usual.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 22.214.171.124) on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 01:00 pm:|
Correct.True did live there.The guy they called the Phantom lived down the street.
Sandy- thanks.You have had a good atitude from your first posting.I can't ever recall you have engaged in anything ,but treating other posters in a fair and decent manner.Not the crude disrespectful American way,but refreshing nonetheless.
|By Sandy (Sandy) (ppp-64-175-141-113.dialup.wnck11.pacbell.net - 126.96.36.199) on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 07:22 pm:|
Thank you Howard ! Did you remember reading in Darlenes homicide report,were I said that the man I saw at the Coronado Inn in 69, drove a vette? I believe it was black. He told me his name was Paul.The police found him living in Yountville, I believe his last name was Jensen . RG wrote about him in his first book, Pauls wife was his alibi for the 4th of july. I drew a picture of him and gave it to VPD, I would like to see that drawing today,and see how close it was to SFPD composite.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (188.8.131.52.lcinet.net - 184.108.40.206) on Sunday, August 04, 2002 - 12:25 pm:|
Yes,I do.I remember being suprised(just as surprised to see Eds name linked to the peeper watching Darlene!) your name was in the report!You go back to the origins of the case.
It would be interesting to see that drawing.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-19167.linkline.com - 220.127.116.11) on Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 11:09 pm:|
I have found out that the officer that saw Robin Graham speaking with a caucasian male
along side of her car on the freeway at around 2:00 AM,had dark hair and was around 26
years of age.
Davis had dark brown hair and had turned 28 in October.
The car he drove away in with Graham was a light blue '58-'60 Corvette with primer spots.
Davis had a friend that loaned him his Corvette whenever he requested its use.FYI
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-139-118.client.attbi.com - 18.104.22.168) on Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 11:15 pm:|
Howard, what was the suspect driving in that Berkeley incident that was so similar to what Kathleen Johns experienced?
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-19167.linkline.com - 22.214.171.124) on Tuesday, November 26, 2002 - 10:39 pm:|
The Berekely '68 Telegraph AV scenario resembles both elements of the Bates and Johns incidents.
I can't find anywhere what kind,if any,of car he was driving.
He simply 'suddenly approaches' the girls and asks them if they wanted a "lift" and they 'pointed to their VW at the curb' and said "that's it."
When they were at a snack shop about 40 minutes later and finished eating,they tried to start their car ,but it didn't respond and the same 'stocky'(GS)man('about 25-40'with brown hair)appears and offers to help push start the VW.
When the witness to this story arrives he sees one of the girls steering and the man pushing the car.He comes up to help and the stranger rages as he storms off!
When the witness looked under the trunk lid he found the 'middlewire of the distributer had been pulled out.'
The witness told Avery that the PD report may have the strangers license plate number in it.This our only indication he had a car,but it's only an inference at this point.
Why the man wasn't questioned more carefully and asked to assist with a composite I have no idea.
I wish those females would come forward some day!
Supposedly, the two girls filed a PD report,but searches have not revealed it.Since it was November '70 when the man came to Avery with his story and the incident took place in '68 ,it may have been cleaned out.
GS says there was a person claiming to be Zodiac call the Chronicle 12 days after the November '70 story appeared saying ,"City desk, don't bother with general rewrite[newspaper jargon],this is the Zodiac and it's the last time I am going to call."; but, he leaves out that the original incident happened some two years before leaving one with the impression the event took place recently and then 12 days later Z makes a call,etc..
It's my understanding that Avery tried to find more information, but was unsuccessful.
Sorry I went into detail,but it was for others that may not have known about the story.Maybe someone will get or has information.
Maybe the local paper/s carried the story in '68 and/or in '70.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (126.96.36.199.lcinet.net - 188.8.131.52) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 01:55 pm:|
Channel 4 -Pax 30- is supposed to cover Robin Grahams abduction in 1970.
|By Sandy (Sandy) (adsl-67-122-213-244.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net - 184.108.40.206) on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 01:43 pm:|
Howard,when you write the man came to Avery,are you saying the same man who helped the girls with the VW? That sounds like something my suspect would do just to get more about the Z in the papers.It is something to think about,the perp is also the witness!
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (220.127.116.11.lcinet.net - 18.104.22.168) on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 11:25 pm:|
This is what I call the Berkeley incident.Paul Avery was told by a man in 1970 that in 1968 on Telegraph AV he saw a man pushing a VW with a young female at the wheel.Another female was watching.The man that came to Avery with the story said that when he saw what was happening he came up and offered help and the man pushing the car, by hand, went off angry at the 'intrusion.'
Later,the ladies told him that earlier the man that had been pushing the car had come up to them and offered them a lift,but they pointed to their VW and politely refused.
They later got something to eat and after they had eaten, they went to the VW ,but it wouldn't start and the same man that had offered them a ride suddenly offered to get the car started,etc.
This is when Averys informant said he saw this man pushing the VW.When he examined the VW he found that the distributor wire had been pulled out!
It was Averys story about the Bates' incident that triggered his remembrance of the event.The ladies were supposed to have reported this event to the police,but no record has been found to date.
With the Robin Graham case in November of 1970(on a weekend around 2:00 AM with a full moon)a man pulled up after her car was disabled on the Hollywood Freeway and offered help.Long story short-they later drove off together and she has never been found.I always think of Zs remark ,"There are a hell of a lot more[victims] down there"[Southern CA].
The piece on channel Four reviewed the case,including the 1969 Rose Tashman case,as Tashman was abducted from the same freeway by a someone when her car was disabled on the side of the freeway.Flares had been 'neatly' placed all around her car.Both families were present during the case review.
|By Sandy (Sandy) (adsl-67-112-24-4.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net - 22.214.171.124) on Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 02:39 pm:|
Howard thank you. While I was in San Diego a few years back I took a look at unsolved 187's. I found some that were very Z like. I know you can place Davis down south at the right time. Myself I can place only Darlene and her ex in 66,Jim himself told the police, that the car he had which looked like Dee's killers car, was taken down to LA and left,I think that was in the 70 report.As you may know my car's coil wire was taken late at night in 68, a strange man about 30 yrs old followed me from Vallejo to Napa very close to the time of the lake Herman rd.187s. He had dark curly hair,and drove a light golden /brown small car like a Comet. The Falcon looked a lot like the Comet,this one did not have any chrome strips down the side. I will never forget his face,or that night.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (126.96.36.199.lcinet.net - 188.8.131.52) on Saturday, February 15, 2003 - 12:17 am:|
My main Southern Ca or SD area case in 5/1/67 was Nikki Benedict.See old posts.
A cold case detective e mailed me and said that they considered it a Z when they saw that the suspect looked exactly like the Z wanted poster(and other details),complete with crew cut!
They connected Nikki to Bates also.There were some similar factors in both cases.I only posted the ones I felt at liberty to post respecting the detectives wishes.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (184.108.40.206.lcinet.net - 220.127.116.11) on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 05:10 pm:|
For an article about Karl Werners girlfriend during the time of the murders,click Google and "Sunnyvale Karl Werner" and click "Cover Story."Very interesting.
|By Warren (Warren) (w205.z064002105.hou-tx.dsl.cnc.net - 18.104.22.168) on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 07:43 am:|
As Sandy goes back to the very origins of the Z cases, it seems that she would be an excellent subject for hypnosis. It is amazing what a good hypnotist can bring out; from what I have read in a Texas court case, the long passage of time is a very minor impediment to successful recall.
|By Warren (Warren) (w205.z064002105.hou-tx.dsl.cnc.net - 22.214.171.124) on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 08:06 am:|
Plus, we could probably bribe the examiner to ask some really embarrassing questions.
|By Sandy (Sandy) (12-233-90-84.client.attbi.com - 126.96.36.199) on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 05:21 pm:|
Warren,I would love to do it how ever, I seem to remember everything that happend that night in 68. I would like to see if I saw his lic. plate number. This guy uses stolen plates now. It would be very interesting to see what would come out of hypnosis. You won't need to bribe anyone,just ask me anything you would like to know.
|By Warren (Warren) (w205.z064002105.hou-tx.dsl.cnc.net - 188.8.131.52) on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 07:33 am:|
Sandy, you should really consider doing this and if someone would check into costs I
would gladly contribute. I think that what is true in every person's recollection of
events is that minor unproven assumptions are subconciously made in order to fill in gaps
in the sequence of events. Over time, these assumptions assume the role of facts, which
again, subconciously spawn further erroneous assumptions and an event begins to take on
mythical proportions. For example; I recently went back to the town I grew up in. I had
not seen it in many years. Two story buildings were one story buildings. Stores on
opposite sides of the town square had reversed themselves. Gravestones in the town
cemetary had moved themselves to different locations as if someone were playing a cruel
practical joke. Vast distances to my friends homes had compressed themselves into
impossible shortness. It's true that you can't go home again because the home you actually
grew up in is not the home that your mind has created in the interim.
Thus, I think, a very good hypnotist could peel away these assumptions like the skin of an onion and actually take you back to these very events.
Assuming a competent examiner, I bet you will find the events quite different than what you remember and experience the very emotions of that time. I think it is worth a try.
|By Warren (Warren) (w205.z064002105.hou-tx.dsl.cnc.net - 184.108.40.206) on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 07:45 am:|
And please don't think that I doubt your version of the events. I assume they are true. What I'm trying to say is that, like all of us, your subconsious may have rejected something that you found incompatible with your perception of the event, even at the time it was occuring. Or, that you saw something, like a license plate number, that was duly noted in the brain but discarded in the forefront of your mind because of the rapid unfolding of such traumatic events. Its like this computer I type on. I hit delete on an e-mail, and it no longer shows up in the index or on the screen. But it is still there, and I have to go get our IT guy to show me how to retrieve it.
|By Mike_D (Mike_D) (cache-rp06.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 09:17 am:|
Hey Dr.Howard-if you type "Snoozy-Furlong murders"
on Google you'll see an article from back then that should interest you in particular.I wonder if Werner had any hippieish "friends"!
All that aside that case has always interested me because Werner came from a town a stones throw from where I grew up,and only moved 6mos.before
the murders.Creepy.Massachusetts gain was Californias loss I guess.Good riddance to bad garbage!