LAWRENCE KANE


Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Other Suspects: LAWRENCE KANE

By Mike (spider-wm081.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.199.186) on Wednesday, September 20, 2000 - 12:06 pm:

Hi-

On the TLC special, Harvey Hines says that if you add the three "taurus"/"circled 8" symbols, you get 24. He then attributes this to be the year in which Zodiac may have ben born. He then says that Larry Kane was, in fact, born in that year. However, I just noticed that on TWO different driver's licenses, one in that very same special and one in the AMW special, his birthdate is listed as April 22, 1922. Does anyone know which of these is correct? Did Kane lie about his birthdate or is the error Harvey's?

Mike

By Mike (spider-wo064.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.200.49) on Wednesday, September 20, 2000 - 12:30 pm:

Hi-

I made a boo-boo. He was born in April 29, 1922.
The year was correct, however...

Mike

By Tom Voigt (ac9cee61.ipt.aol.com - 172.156.238.97) on Wednesday, September 20, 2000 - 01:03 pm:

Hines is an idiot, that's the most logical conclusion I can think of. Harvey is a very shady individual...

By Oscar (dialup-63.210.122.248.losangeles1.level3.net - 63.210.122.248) on Friday, September 29, 2000 - 12:16 am:

Harvey is a very shady individual
Tom, would you care to elaborate on this rather cutting assessment of Hines? Harvey has been mentioned in numerous Zodiac article (notably, "On The Trail of the Zodiac"), and I was wondering how you have come to the conclusion that Hines is an "idiot"? Is this based entirely on Hine's theory concerning the cipher, or is predicated on his overall investigative skill (or lack thereof)? Just curious. Thanks.

By Ed N. (spider-tq053.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.201.68) on Sunday, October 01, 2000 - 12:15 am:

I've not met him yet, but the way in which he deduced that Kane had to be Z left a lot to be desired. He started with a questionable (IMHO) Z communique (the Pines card) and an unproven Z victim (Lass), and found Kane. Then he decided that Kane must therefore be Z! What an incredible leap of "logic" (or is it faith?)!

That's sort of like Hunter having the initials "RH" and living at the corner of Washington and Maple, therefore Carl insists he must be Z! Another incredible leap of "logic."

While Hines may have found a lot of interesting things about Kane, that's far from proving that he's Z.

BTW, did you see the bizarre way in which Hines "deciphered" the 13 symbol "my name is" cipher? It's about as logical as Penn's arguments for O'Hare being Z. In other words, it ain't.

By Bill Baker (pool0378.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net - 209.178.189.123) on Sunday, October 01, 2000 - 05:16 pm:

Ed, as a criminal investigator (rtd) [that's retired, not retarded!], I always wince when I hear of other so-called professionals who have exercised substandard practices and/or judgment. It also pains me to read of the misdirection, miscues and plain old mistakes that were probably made by the agencies involved in the four core Z cases. Mistakes are inevitable, but when the bottom line is a lack of solution, even minor mistakes are magnified and often distorted out of proportion over time. In my opinion, the greatest mistake was the apparent territorial imperative exercised by one or more of these agencies. But I digress.

Kane's viability as a Z suspect should neither rise nor fall on Hines' credibility, but unfortunately it does. I've never been much of a believer in Kane's involvement in the Z cases, and I wonder how viable he'd be were it not for Hines' promotion. For that matter, I have serious doubt as to Ted K.'s involvement and that of Bruce Davis, but I must confess that Douglas and Howard have often shaken my skepticism with their excellent presentations and caused me to re-think my own theories more than once.

You, Ed, remain my hero for your thoughtful and common-sense approach to the primary conundrum of this board and the many hypotheses that appear here. I would even go so far as to say that if you (or your clones) had been at the center of the original police investigations, this board wouldn't exist today. You have, in my opinion, that singular quality that has no substitute: Credibility.

By Oscar (dialup-63.210.126.53.losangeles1.level3.net - 63.210.126.53) on Sunday, October 01, 2000 - 06:02 pm:

Tom,
Would you please find time to give me a response to my query? Being relatively new to the case, I have very little knowledge about the investigators that extend beyond the articles. I am particularly interested in your use of the word "shady". What gives? thank you in advance.
Oscar.
p.s. My "little problem" on the other message board has been solved. Sorry for my lax security.

By Ed N. (spider-tf053.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.197.198) on Monday, October 02, 2000 - 12:09 am:

Thanks for the kind words, Bill. I do what I can to stay within the parameters of the case, and when I speculate, I say so, and I'm always open to new ideas and opinions as long as they have some foundation. And I understand your reactions as well, because I have them also when I read of the things that should obviously have been done but weren't, etc. Of course, sometimes I do get a little zealous and/or sarcastic when it comes to pointing out the illogic and the lapses in judgment and investigative procedure, but it just burns me up when I read such things.

As far as Hines' credibility goes, I don't necessarily find that he is not credible nor do I doubt his findings concerning Kane. What I do find lacking is how he identifies Kane as Z. Were he able to definitely tie Kane to a known and proven Z victim, that would be one thing, but he didn't do that. That is why, in my book (for whatever it's worth), Kane will remain a Z suspect, but a very poor one. The only reason why he should remain a suspect is that he was publicly named as one in 1994, and, because of that, will be a part of this case until such time as it is solved. In the meantime, one just never knows, and so therefore we should not discount him just because something (or a lot of somethings) doesn't fit.

As far as the other suspects go, such as Kaczinsky and Bruce Davis, I have to continually reassess my position concerning their viability whenever Douglas or Howard post something, because there are so many good parallels between their suspects and Z! The problem is, only one can be Z (if Z was in fact a lone killer and responsible for all the crimes attributed to him), and, like Kane, we shouldn't necessarily discount one (or both) nor favor one over the other. Unlike Kane, there are many elements for both suspects that are similar to or match Z, and so, IMHO, they are far more viable as candidates for Z than Kane is.

Once again, Bill, thanks for the kind words. I always look forward to reading your posts, because of your knowledge and experience as a professional criminal investigator. You have a certain insight and expertise that can only be gained in the field, something which I and many others lack, and I always learn something new from you. And even though many of us weren't around back in the day to help solve this case, with the various people we have working on it now, hopefully the Zodiac will not become the Bay Area's Jack the Ripper after all.

By Bill Baker (pool0586.cvx5-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net - 209.178.154.76) on Monday, October 02, 2000 - 12:31 am:

Ed, not to relegate this site/thread to a mutual admiration societal domain, I can always count on you to keep me honest. I have often misstated facts out of ignorance and/or negligence. You'd think, after this many years of being an anally retentive perfectionist, I'd some day get it right. I'd welcome an ongoing exchange of ideas with you via e-mail, as the board sometimes has an inhibiting effect on those of us, me especially, that hate to expose our soft under-bellies to the often-incisive scrutiny of our posters.

Unfortunately, I will be going out of the country on business later this week, and probably won't be back home for two months or so. Whatever you do, don't let anyone solve the case until I get back! If it happens despite your suppressive efforts, then please promise me you'll see to it that my name is spelled correctly, whether in credit, or abject disgrace.

Bill

By Anonymous (19.las-vegas-03-04rs.nv.dial-access.att.net - 12.73.9.19) on Sunday, October 01, 2000 - 04:47 pm:

I have known Larry Cane ( he spells it with a "C")
for over 15 years. I only recently found out about him being a suspect. Actually the whole thing was by accident as I was watching TV one night and ran across a show where they had mentioned him by name.Larry has never mentioned anything about this to me, and I never really knew too much about his past.I could be wrong,
but it would be a huge stretch to think of Larry
and the Zodiac as the same.He has told me of several of the things which are expressed on this site, i.e.,the car accident,living with his mother in Tahoe, working at the Sahara,etc.Larry has never, on any occasion,even hinted about the Zodiac nor gave me the impression he could even consider killing someone.I am not a crime expert,
but 1 thing I can tell you is that you are looking
at the wrong person and you should probably take your investigation elsewhere.Besides that, it scared the hell out of me once I heard about it.I must admit though, that there are similarities with regards to his personality and what you describe as those traits belonging to the Zodiac,
but still, the whole thing is a little too far fetched for me to even consider remotely possible.

By Bill Baker (pool0378.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net - 209.178.189.123) on Sunday, October 01, 2000 - 08:19 pm:

Anonymous (I hate to address people so . . . well, anonymously), I welcome your input as someone who knows Cane. While there are many who would point to those people close to a serial killer that say they had "never suspected he was capable of such a thing" are hopelessly naive, I would probably tend to attach more credence to someone who has known Cane for 15+ years than to an investigator (and subsequent adherents) who stretch the limits of credibility to include him as a suspect in the first place, based on seemingly meager existing and prevailing evidence. That's not to say Mr. Cane is unequivocably not a murderer, but that it takes more than subjective conjecture and gossamer threads of logic to warrant such public accusations.

If Mr. Cane is not Z, unfortunately it's now up to him to respond once and for all and proffer an indisputable, irrefutable, proveable showing of his non-involvement in any one or more of the core Z cases. Otherwise, realistically, there will continue to be disciples of Hines that will forevermore cling to Mr. Cane as the Zodiac.

By Tom Voigt (acaf72d7.ipt.aol.com - 172.175.114.215) on Monday, October 02, 2000 - 12:59 am:

Oscar,
My reasons for finding Hines to be a shady character are based on my personal dealings with him.
My reasons for finding Hines to be an idiot are based on the logic he used to reach the conclusion that Lawrence Kane is Zodiac.

By Oscar (dialup-63.210.119.65.losangeles1.level3.net - 63.210.119.65) on Monday, October 02, 2000 - 01:29 am:

Tom,
I remember during the TLC program that Hines was really hot for Donna Lass being a Z victim. As far as we know, Z was not into abduction and body stashing(for lack of a better term), so she does not fit into the typical Z-crime paradigm. However, one thing has me wondering about this. Graysmith writes in his book (p.176-177) that Lass was a nurse in a Presidio hospital until June of 1970 et al. Has this fact- and I use the word loosely, as it is Graysmith's- been substantiated? Even if this is true, it could just be one hell of a coincidence. But then again...?
Oscar

By Ed N. (spider-tf053.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.197.198) on Monday, October 02, 2000 - 01:38 am:

Coincidence abounds in this case!

By Jena (spider-mtc-td032.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.104.162) on Tuesday, October 03, 2000 - 02:27 am:

If this is true, Lass working at the Persidio Hospital we need to look at this alittle closer again... I will be at least! J

By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-wc054.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.193.44) on Thursday, October 12, 2000 - 01:42 am:

Oscar wrote:

Graysmith writes in his book (p.176-177) that Lass was a nurse in a Presidio hospital until June of 1970 et al. Has this fact- and I use the word loosely, as it is Graysmith's- been substantiated?

I've checked that out, but have not as yet independently verified that she was ever in San Francisco, aside from Graysmith and newspaper reports. Of course, that is not to be interpreted that she never was, just that I've not been able to prove it to my satisfaction by seeing the records for myself. For instance, Gareth Penn claimed to have been listed in the Napa telephone directory for a number of years, and that he owned property in Napa county. I happened to be in the area and had nothing better to do one day, and so I checked it out and found that he was, in this one rare instance, actually correct. I may yet find some official document Lass signed that definitely places her in San Francisco at that time.

As it is, that lead is very low on my list of priorities, because, as I've pointed out before, she was not a typical Z signature victim, and none of the circumstances surrounding her have lead me to believe that she definitely, positively just had to be a Z-victim. Thus, if I'm ever in the city and happen to be in the right place to check out more records, I'll do that, but I won't go out of my way to do so, unless Harvey Hines can come up with something better than his method of "deciphering" the 13 character "my name is" cipher.

By Realtor (Realtor) (208.128.16.97) on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 11:42 am:

Tom:

The sample of Cane's handwriting you have posted is quite interesting to me. Do you know when it was written by any chance?

Thanks.

Realtor

By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (ip003.portland.quik.com - 209.213.133.3) on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 12:26 pm:

It was written in the late 1990s.

By Realtor (Realtor) (208.128.16.97) on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 11:53 am:

Tom et. al.:

The handwriting sample appears to have been written at someone's direction, as if he were directed to write it as part of an investigation. Was he arrested for something in the late 1990's? At the age of 75-ish? If so, what for?

Thx.

Realtor

By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (ip003.portland.quik.com - 209.213.133.3) on Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 12:37 pm:

At Harvey Hines' prodding, Kane was interviewed in the late 1990s by SFPD. He was fingerprinted, and provided a handwriting sample. Obviously, nothing was found that was incriminating.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 02:15 am:

I have seen his printing on a note that didn't look contrived.He seemed to have changed a few letters on the SFPD note.As for Lass living in S.F. I found the address on Mallorca(not sure of this spelling)it was listed under her roomates name,a short distance from Letterman Hospital.In the early 60s I found someone by that same name in The Santa Barbara area, only she was married then. I think his name was Ron Ingallis(not sure of this spelling).It is some coincidence, that Harvey has the same suspect I have had, long before I met Harvey, don't you think? I just had the wrong name,but the right face.The name I had was from a Lic. plate belonging to a R.H.from the south bay area(not Hunter).

By Realtor (Realtor) (208.128.16.97) on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 11:38 am:

Whoa!! Sandy, do you mean to tell me that Cane is your suspect? I've read your posts for a long time and think you have a lot of personal connections and insights. I just didn't realize till now that your RH turned out to be Cane. Since I'm now kinda confused/amazed, could you please recap the whole story for us...what do you know and when did you know it?

If this is too much to ask, just point me to some prior topics where you've posted so I can review...but it seems a lot of that was before the Board was changed.

Thanks!

Realtor

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 10:35 pm:

Realtor, I can give you some of the info now , but to tell the whole 30 + years would take up alot of space. Back in 68 Vallejo, I was a waitress who just happend to be dating two of the same guys Darlene was dateing. One was Buzz Gordon, a Vallejo cop.Darlene was in love with him,(he told me).At the time I thought he was dating only me.One night I left one job to go to another club and pick up my paycheck.I was inside for about 1/2 hr.Three guys walked me to my car and stood there as I tried to start it. Someone took my coil wire off! They took one off another car and I started to drive towards Napa, to my home. I noticed a car was following me after a while I thought I lost him.So I made my turn up Imola Ave, I was going so fast I couldn't turn onto my street. To be sure I was safe, I turned off my head lights, came around the block towards my home, when I saw a light brown car with its lights still on, parking across the street from my home.With my lights still off I pulled up next to the car faceing the opposite direction. He was looking around , when I slowed up next to him. I don't think I have ever seen more hate on anyone face, like his that night. I pulled away, knowing he would harm me if I got out of my car.I went towards town and found two Napa policemen talking to one another at a gas station next to I hops. While I was telling them what happen,the small brown car came across the street and pulled into I hops. I pointed at it him and told the police thats him! One went to talk to the guy the other one followed me home.Within a few months Darlene and Mike were shot by a man in a small light brown car.It looked like a Comet to me, but a Falcon and a Comet are a lot alike. Thats how it all started.And for 30+ years, on and off, I still see the same man.He is mostly alone, but I have seen him with other men , a few times with a hispanic looking woman.Thats how I was able to take his picture! R.H. is one of Kanes friends,and is somehow involved, because I have seen them both together following me. R.H. has no arrest record, nor was he in the military, as far as I can tell. Yes I carry a gun everywhere I go,and I am a very good shot!

By Realtor (Realtor) (208.128.16.97) on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 11:31 am:

Sandy:

So you're sure it was Cane in the brown car? And you have a picture of him? When did you take it? If it was Cane, then we can establish that he DID DRIVE, whether he was supposed to or not. Did you ever hear him speak? If so, did he have a Southern accent? Did he have any scars or features that would be obvious to the casual onlooker?

And where is he now? I think Tom said he's somewhere in Nevada.

What other handwriting could you share with us? I'd love to take a peek!!

Thanks!

Realtor

By Mhoward (Mhoward) (spider-th014.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.213.49) on Saturday, November 04, 2000 - 10:42 am:

An excerpt from the crime library concerning Kane.
I found it interesting, if nothing elese.

"Krew was in his forties or close to it. He had dark short hair with a receding hairline. He had a pot belly. He was 5'9", weighed 170 pounds and wore horn-rimmed glasses. He was described as a loner, quiet and creepy. Krew had an office across from the Sahara Hotel. He lived with his mother in a studio apartment in Stateline.

He had been seen many times talking to Donna Lass at the nurse's station. Krew was very much into the zodiac. He was a Taurus, Lass a Capricorn. According to astrology experts, they were highly compatible earth signs.

Krew was born in the early 1920's and moved to California with his mother in 1953. Krew served in the Naval Reserve for 7 months. Among the subjects he studied was basic radio charts. He was honorably discharged with a diagnosis of psychoneurosis hysteria.

Hines pulled up reports on Krew. He found Krew had many aliases and possessed three social security cards, all under different names. He had claimed two birth dates. He also had two driver's licenses. Between the years 1946 and 1968, Krew was arrested 19 times for crimes ranging from burglary to battery to fraud. The most recent was for prowling.

In 1964, Krew was in a devastating head-on collision with a cement truck. As a result of the accident, Krew sustained brain damage. He never spent any time in a state mental institution, although his mental state was noted as "extremely serious." After divorcing his wife of two years, Krew moved back in with his mother. Some Navy reports suggest that Krew might be a homosexual. He had no interest in women.

Hines discovered Krew had worked for a real estate company in Riverside during the mid-1960's -- the same time of Cheri Jo Bates' murder. While Krew lived in San Francisco, his residence was on Eddy Street, two blocks away from where Paul Stine picked up Zodiac in his cab. Gilbert and Sullivan's The Mikado was playing in the same theater district three blocks from his apartment. Zodiac had written that he was a fan of Gilbert and Sullivan.

Krew bought a 1969 goldish tan Ambassador sedan on July 10, 1969. This was just six days after Darlene Ferrin's murder. The man who abducted Kathleen Johns and her infant daughter on March 22, 1970, drove a late model tan sedan. Determined that Krew was his man, Hines set up a series of identification procedures.

He spoke to Darlene Ferrin's two sisters. They picked Krew's photo out of a series as the man who had been harassing their sister. Hines then spoke to Officer Donald Foukes. He had spoken to Zodiac on the street after the Stine shooting in San Francisco. Foukes picked out Krew's photo, stating it was "the best likeness out of all the photographs" he'd seen. However, too much time had passed to make a decisive identification.

Kathleen Johns, one of the few survivors, was contacted by Hines. If anyone knew Zodiac, it would be she. Hines set up a photo line-up There were eighteen pictures in all. Krew's was placed in the third row, the last position. Krew had been photographed without glasses. Zodiac wore glasses. Johns looked over the photographs. Within moments, her hand went to a picture. It was Krew's. "It's him. But I thought he was younger than this." Sometimes, glasses make people look younger.

There was a supposition that Krew's real name was Kane. If that were true, his name is found in the cipher supposedly containing the Zodiac's name mailed to the Chronicle on April 20, 1970. Also, Zodiac sent an anonymous letter to the Chronicle signed "A Citizen," on May 8, 1974. One of the best known movies in history is Citizen Kane."

Does anyone know where Kane lived before his move to SF 1953? I find it odd that he changed his ID in 1946, the same year as the "Moonlight Killings" in Texarkana.

Best,
Matt

By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (acac8008.ipt.aol.com - 172.172.128.8) on Saturday, November 04, 2000 - 11:46 am:

Crime Library got their info from Rider McDowell's two-part story for the San Francisco Chronicle. McDowell's source was Harvey Hines. Hines' source was Jim Beam.

By Hurley (Hurley) (spider-wk062.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.198.177) on Sunday, November 05, 2000 - 09:19 am:

If Kane did have a limp and they found shoe prints at LB, then couldn't they tell by examing the prints if someone limped?

By Mhoward (Mhoward) (spider-wc024.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.193.29) on Sunday, November 05, 2000 - 02:20 pm:

Hurley. Yes, if they made a plaster mold of the foot print(s) an anthropologist could easily make that determination. It just so happens that California has one of the best anthropologist in this field, Grover Krantz.

Best,
M Howard

By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (ac9b42f6.ipt.aol.com - 172.155.66.246) on Sunday, November 05, 2000 - 02:25 pm:

If I know Grover, he might determine that Zodiac was actually a crew-cut Sasquatch.

By Hurley (Hurley) (spider-tp041.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.204.191) on Sunday, November 05, 2000 - 02:32 pm:

Sasquatch! Does anyone know if he wears glasses? Yeah, and I think he does drive a tan car...

By Gomper (Gomper) (slip166-72-176-81.al.us.prserv.net - 166.72.176.81) on Sunday, November 05, 2000 - 02:36 pm:

Isn't Grover Krantz a professor of anthropology at the University of Washington?

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Sunday, November 05, 2000 - 05:06 pm:

Correct me if I am wrong, but I was told they did one plaster cast of "one" shoe print, because it was deeper. If Hartnell was playing dead, I don't think he would turn his head, to see how the killer was walking! I am assuming Hartnell had his head turned away from seeing his girlfriend get stabbed.Tha grade of the land in that spot, tells me as soon as Z got up, he walked towards the car. Hartnell would not only have to turn his head, he would have to pick up his head to look towards the car area. Not likely, would anyone take that chance?

By Mhoward (Mhoward) (spider-wd042.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.193.167) on Monday, November 06, 2000 - 03:50 am:

I have a couple of questions about, Kane. Any enlightenment would be greatly appreciated.

1. Kane's whereabouts before his 1953 move to the bay area?
2. Did Kane/Krew/? go to college?
3. If so, where?
4. What year was he in the Navy?
5. Where was he born? (state)
6. Was Kane known to possess a firearm?
7. If possible, his whereabouts in 1946? (the year he changed his name)

Best,
M. Howard

By Gomper (Gomper) (slip166-72-176-16.al.us.prserv.net - 166.72.176.16) on Monday, November 06, 2000 - 06:33 am:

I think Kane is an interesting suspect, too, which
is not to say that he is the most likely suspect
(since the only connection Hines can make between Kane and Z is the postcard).
Particularly interesting to me is the fact that Kane was speaking with a Southern accent when Tom met him; this seems to be in keeping with Kane's penchant for changing his identity. Of course, he didn't look like such a great suspect anymore when
I learned that he was only one of several men that
Darlene's sisters identified as the person who had been harassing Darlene before her death. However, in my personal opinion, Kane comes closer than any
of the other suspects(particularly Allen)to looking like the Zodiac sketch. Yes, I know he wasn't wearing glasses in his 1968 mugshot, but it's the facial expression and hairline that remind me of Z.
I'm not making any accusations, or championing Kane or anyone else as "my" suspect...Just contributing to the conversation.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 05:33 am:

Kane was born In Brooklyn N.Y. He lives in Tahoe over looking the lake but you have to "peek through the pines" to see his place.I wont upset the man, and give out his address.I don't know if he went to collage or not. I have been shot at more than once but couldn't see who it was.I know Harvey told me that once he spoke to kane in a parking lot,he was with a friend.They where going into a club, his friend turned and went back to Kanes truck, took what looked like a small gun case from under the drivers side of the truck.As for Kanes driving, I don't think he has seizures.He has had a bad driving record in the past is why he couldn't get a Calif. D.L., he did it by changing his name.

By Hurley (Hurley) (spider-wa042.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.192.37) on Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 12:35 pm:

Does anyone know if Arthur Leigh Allen knew Kane?

By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (acab1d8c.ipt.aol.com - 172.171.29.140) on Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 12:54 pm:

That's a detail I probably would have mentioned...

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 09:43 pm:

I believe Kane knew about Allen being a suspect. Chances are it was Kane who made that phone call to VPD about Allen. The phone call did come from Lake Tahoe! I don't think any of us know for sure if they ever met. Allen referred to the caller as a punk. Either VPD told Allen a man had called, or Allen knew it was a male.I have never heard a female called a punk.

By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (ac8a6d5b.ipt.aol.com - 172.138.109.91) on Wednesday, November 08, 2000 - 01:20 am:

Sandy, all that is known about Allen's 10-6-69 debut as a Zodiac suspect is that "an anonymous tip" was responsible.

By Hurley (Hurley) (spider-wb083.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.192.188) on Wednesday, November 08, 2000 - 07:17 am:

I was wondering if Allen knew Kane and was trying to impersonate him.

By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (ac8de23f.ipt.aol.com - 172.141.226.63) on Wednesday, November 08, 2000 - 08:25 am:

This is really silly.
There is no evidence Allen knew Kane, and there is nothing to indicate anybody was "impersonating" anybody.

Sandy wrote,
"Chances are it was Kane who made that phone call to VPD about Allen.
The phone call did come from Lake Tahoe!"

Where in the world did you come up with this?

By Hurley (Hurley) (spider-tl054.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.207.199) on Wednesday, November 08, 2000 - 09:57 am:

I don't think it's silly. It sure seems like they've crossed paths and were acquainted with the same people. I don't think Kane was Zodiac but there are some strange coincidences in my opinion associating Kane with Zodiac.

If I had to chose with the suspects listed on this board I would go with Allen. Maybe Kane didn't know Allen but maybe Allen knew of Kane. Who knows why someone would be fixated on someone else. Maybe if Allen was Zodiac he (for some unknown reason) wanted dress like Kane, mimic his hair and glasses, maybe even dress.

A cabbie gets shot by someone resembling Kane not far from where Kane lived.

There is also the coincidence of KANE in the "My name is cipher". There is also the possibility of Donna Lass as a Zodiac victim.

Zodiac sent a letter in June 1970 indicating a 12th victim. (How accurate? Who knows....) In June 1970 Donna Lass moved to Lake Tahoe. In June 1970 Kane moved to Lake Tahoe. In March 1971, the "Peek Through the Pines" postcard was sent. It had Lake Tahoe on it as well as SOUGHT 12th victim.

Zodiac was a clown with a sinister sense of humor. I don't think Zodiac's entire motive was about getting Kane or anything but, maybe Zodiac knew Kane and had something against him and got his kicks from mocking him in some way, in a way that Kane may have never, ever been aware of.

By Hurley (Hurley) (spider-wm061.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.199.176) on Wednesday, November 08, 2000 - 06:08 pm:

Hi Sandy, What is the Kane/ Allen connection? Do you know for a fact that Kane tipped off the police about Allen being Zodiac?

By Mhoward (Mhoward) (spider-wl031.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.199.31) on Saturday, November 11, 2000 - 01:12 am:

Thanks Sandy for letting me know his birth state.

Sandy Writes:
I have been shot at more than once but couldn't see who it was.


So sorry to hear this, Sandy. Do you have any idea who the shooter was?

Sandy Writes:
I wont upset the man, and give out his address.


I wouldn't want his current address, posting it in public might be dangerous for him as well. I know that he lives in Nevada, and that's all I need to know about his present. It's his past I'm more interested in.

It has been stated that Kane possessed 3 social security cards each with a different name. I'm only aware of two names, i.e., Kane and Krew. Might anyone know if he ever used the name, Conway? Or, if he resided in the Texas/Arkansas area during the mid 1940s?


Best,
M. Howard

By Gomper (Gomper) (slip166-72-176-116.al.us.prserv.net - 166.72.176.116) on Sunday, November 12, 2000 - 05:32 am:

I believe I read once--and I thought it was on crimelibrary.com--that Kane also used the name "Klein" or "Kline".

By Realtor (Realtor) (1cust23.tnt20.hou3.da.uu.net - 63.29.198.23) on Sunday, November 12, 2000 - 07:39 am:

Mhoward:

He wrote his name on the handwriting sample Tom posted as "Larry Cane." A friend of Cane's also posted on this board and said that he spelled it "Cane."

What was his mother's name?

Realtor

By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-ta013.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.16.23) on Tuesday, November 14, 2000 - 12:03 am:

I believe he also used the surname "Cave," based on the fact that I found someone named "Larry Cave" who lived in an apartment just two or so blocks from the intersection of Mason and Geary, where Z apparently hailed Stine's cab. This, I suspect, is the "Larry Krew" that Harvey Hines found. There was also an "L.C. Cane" who lived there in ca. 1965, just before "Larry Cave," who was probably the same person.

By Realtor (Realtor) (1cust113.tnt20.hou3.da.uu.net - 63.29.198.113) on Sunday, December 31, 2000 - 07:14 am:

Wow! The Zodiac symbol is the "Mark of Cain!"

I was just reading "Genesis of the Grail Kings," by Laurence Gardner, Transworld Publishers (UK), 1999 and Element Books, Inc., Boston, 2000. On page 104, Gardner writes:

"As for the enigmatic mark placed upon Cain, this is probably the most important aspect of the story so far, because although not defined in the Bible, the Mark of Cain is the oldest recorded Grant of Arms in sovereign history. In the Midrash and Phoenician traditions, the Mark of Cain is defined as being a cross within a circle."

Here he inserts the symbol we see in Z's letters.

Gardner goes on to point out that there are various spellings for the name: Qayin/Cain/Kain all refer to the same person, namely Eve's son from whom the line of kings descended to Jesus.

What Gardner is writing ABOUT is too complex for me to present here, and it's not necessary to the point anyway. He synthesizes information from ancient texts from Sumeria to Babylon to Egypt to Caanan to the Celts...I think you'd also have to read his prior book, "Bloodline of the Holy Grail," to get his theory in perspective.

Sufficice it to say that he is a learned man who is not talking through his hat. (He is the Prior of the Celtic Church's Sacred Kindred of Saint Columbia, the Jacobite Historiographer Royal, The Chevalier Labhran de St. Germain, and an internationally known sovereign and chivalric genealogist. He is the Presidential Attache to the European Council of Princes, formally attached to the Nobel Household Guard of the Royal House of Stewart and is Chancellor of the Imperial and Royal Court of the Dragon Sovereignty which embodies the Knights Templars of St. Anthony, in case anyone doesn't believe he'd know what the Mark of Cain was.)

Anyway, MY point is that we now have another meaning/origin for the Zodiac symbol: It was the Mark of Cain/Kain/Qayin. "The Mark of Cain" has been taken (erroneously) to mean the mark of a killer...and who do we know who spelled his name with a C or a K who has been suspected of being a killer?

BTW, there are at least two other symbols that Zodiac used that are in Gardner's book: the circle with the dot in it and the triangle with the dot. These are symbols used in alchemy that originated with earlier Indian mystics and such.

Well, I'm blown away. Anybody else?

Realtor

By Hurley (Hurley) (spider-tk012.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.206.177) on Sunday, December 31, 2000 - 09:21 am:

Veddy, veddy, interesting......

By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (acab4ece.ipt.aol.com - 172.171.78.206) on Sunday, December 31, 2000 - 11:04 am:

Too bad Zodiac's writings betray this supposed symbol-motivation.

By Realtor (Realtor) (1cust75.tnt20.hou3.da.uu.net - 63.29.198.75) on Monday, January 01, 2001 - 06:51 am:

Tom:

Huh?

Realtor

By Michaelmc (Michaelmc) (1cust10.tnt3.lancaster.pa.da.uu.net - 63.26.0.10) on Monday, January 01, 2001 - 04:36 pm:

Why look so deep? the cross might have been selected for anywhere. And besides what will knowing the cross origin do to solve the case.


Michael

By Realtor (Realtor) (208.128.16.97) on Tuesday, January 02, 2001 - 10:23 am:

Jeeze! I guess this is hopelessly lost on y'all.

Realtor

By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-td022.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.17.157) on Tuesday, January 02, 2001 - 10:45 am:

No, Realtor, it's not. The thing is, there are so many meanings to that particular symbol, and it is found in so many places, that I think it's impossible to definitively say with any amount of certainty just what it means. Only Z can tell us for sure.

I am curious about a quote from Gardner, however:

Gardner goes on to point out that there are various spellings for the name: Qayin/Cain/Kain all refer to the same person, namely Eve's son from whom the line of kings descended to Jesus.

He says Eve's son; Cain was Adam's son as well, unless he has some other idea. And what line of kings is he talking about?

BTW, did this guy get his ideas from Holy Blood, Holy Grail, perchance?

By Realtor (Realtor) (208.128.16.97) on Wednesday, January 03, 2001 - 11:06 am:

Ed:

I specified that Cain was Eve's son because Gardner's research into ancient texts (tablets of clay from Sumeria) say that Eve was Cain's mother who was impregnated by one of the Annunaki, the beings from somewhere other than Earth who were called gods. The bloodline is therefore "divine" from the time of Cain, through Sumeria's city of Ur, to Abraham who went to Canaan, to Joseph who went to Egypt, to Moses (who was the Pharaoh Akenaten and grandfather of King Tut) who went to Israel, to Jesse, David, and Jesus. Jesus, being a superbly educated Jewish Rabbi, was married to Mary Magdalene, had children, and those children's descendants survive today in the Merovingian kings of Europe. THAT is the Holy Grail, because graal means blood/bloodline.

And, yes, the three (?) Brits who wrote Holy Blood, Holy Grail are on the same page with Gardner. He quotes them, they quote him... I don't know who got the idea from whom, except that the stories have been floating around since the crucifixion that the bloodline survived.

Realtor

By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (csd140.bvi3.cos.pcisys.net - 207.204.7.140) on Wednesday, January 03, 2001 - 01:12 pm:

First, the spelling of CAIN is just an English transliteration of the Hebrew word {Qayin} which is of the root {qyn}, "to forge."

Second, this whole "Mark of Cain" thread is beyond far-fetched. While I'm all for presenting, and critically exploring, evidence both for and against Larry Kane as a "Z" suspect, we really must be careful about the lengths we are willing to go in order to make "connections" to that end.

The "mark of Cain" appears in the biblical Genesis 4:15

--------------
Then the LORD said to him, "Not so! If any one slays Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold." And the LORD PUT A MARK UPON CAIN, lest any who came upon him should kill him. RSV (my emphasis)
--------------

but no where, NO WHERE(!), does the text say WHAT THAT MARK LOOKS LIKE! We can speculate all we want, but that is all you get, speculation.

These so-called "marks" [Hebrew {ot}] appear many times in the Hebrew Bible; sometimes they are named (e.g., Rahab's "scarlet cord" in Joshua 2:12, 18; or the "stars" in Genesis 1:14; the "rainbow" in Genesis 9:12), while others they are not.

Often these "signs" are associated with color(s), a point that for centuries was used to help *justify* the enslavement of blacks (as is also the case with the Noah story and the descendants of Ham, the , and wicked Caananites. "Cursed be Caanan; a servant (slave) of servants shall he be."

That "color" seems to play a role in the "mark of Cain" mythology has many comparable derivitives in earlier Egyptian mythology as well, most remarkably in the Set vs Osiris.

Note: one should note that the Egyptian deity, SET, is remarkable in the NEXT child born to Adam & Eve (after Cain murders Abel), SET[H]!

Anyway, as the Osiris story goes, Set (Cain?) kills Osiris (Abel?) with a bow and arrow, spilling Osiris' blood in a cornfield. Set then descends into a shallow grave (with Osiris) and remains underground until the third day, the day on which the *new king* would be officially proclaimed. (Yes, this parallels a certain other popular "divine" figure in the New Testament, but that's another story--but on to the important part). While still under ground Set shaved his head so that Osiris' shade would not recognize him and take vengeance. He also MARKED HIS FOREHEAD with the COLORED SPOT that the fertility nuns (priestesses who copulated with temple patrons as an act of worship) used to proclaim their holiness.

As you can see, there are many parallels with this story and the later Hebrew renditions of Cain & Abel. It should also not be surprising that other ancient Near Eastern cultures had derivitive mythologies of the SAME story.

I could really get into some in-depth theological dialogue here, but I'm biting my tongue because it will quicly go WAY OFF TOPIC.

Third, the crossed-circle symbol is used in MANY forms through the centuries, but in terms of religious or biblical connotation, it is NOT part of Hebrew theology and does not appear in the Bible AT ALL, not even in the New Testament. The cross itself does not really come to be a Christian symbol until the fifth century, and the CROSSED-CIRCLE much later with the Celts.

I suspect "Z's" use of this symbol is much less in-depth than what we are delving into here, but who knows...

Hope that this helps.

Bruce Monson

By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-tc014.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.17.24) on Wednesday, January 03, 2001 - 05:34 pm:

Bruce, I know that no one knows what the mark of Cain was, I was just curious as to where Realtor was coming from, even though I already had a pretty good idea. The fact that this Gardner he quotes from apparently embraces the teachings of those who wrote Holy Blood, Holy Grail doesn't surprise me. I majored in history, and I actually do know a few things about ancient Egypt, and what I know does not square with these Grail teachings. In other words, Akenaten was not Moses, etc etc. Read Velikovsky's Ages in Chaos series, specifically Oedipus and Akenaten, to understand just who Akenaten really was (there are others who claim that he was really some sort of extraterrestrial and was 14 feet tall or something, based on the very basic misunderstanding of how the kings were portrayed in Egyptian art).

If we really want to get off-topic (NOT!), let's talk about Zechariah Sitchin and the twelfth planet Nibiru that has a 3,600 year orbital period and how the Annunaki came from there to mine gold on Earth and how they "created" humans by tinkering genetically with apes and Annunaki DNA to create Adam and Eve...

P.S. Just to let you know, I don't believe any of this rubbish, but it certainly is entertaining reading (as long as you don't take it seriously, sort of like Times 17)...

By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (csd140.bvi3.cos.pcisys.net - 207.204.7.140) on Wednesday, January 03, 2001 - 11:59 pm:

Hi Ed!

I could see from your previous posts to REALTOR that you were putting on your high-water boots. I was just responding, myself, to the wild assertions being made in regard to the "Z" issue.

As for the Akhenaten = Moses gaff, I just figured REALTOR made a mistake here, not really meaning to actually call Akhenaten Moses, but rather Moses being a subject of Akhenaten's rule. There are some theories that try to place a biblical Moses *in the court* of Pharaoh Akhenaten, thus claiming that Akhenaten (not Rameses II) was the Pharaoh of the Book of Exodus. But, of course, the Bible never actually names this mysterious Pharaoh and there are big problems (with the archaeological record, the historical record, and also the biblical record) for either of these Pharoah's to be definitively named as "the one."

Now, insofar as "Annunaki DNA" goes ... DUH! Of course that story is true! Geez :-)

Regards,

Bruce M.

By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-ta082.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.16.57) on Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 01:27 am:

It IS??? I better borrow those books from my brother again...

Seriously, though, Velikovsky deals with Akhenaton, and deduces that he was actually 9th century BC and contemporary with King Ahab of Jezebel fame (or infamy, as the case may be). The "evidence" that Rameses II was the pharoah of the Exodus is almost nonexistent, and Velikovsky deals with that too. If you've not read him before, then check out his Ages in Chaos series. Give Worlds in Collision a miss though (it makes interesting (if somewhat unbelievable) reading, and he does make some good points, but it's not really relevant to his main thesis).

In any case, while Realtor found an interesting meaning to the crossed circle, I don't think it's possible to proclaim with any amount of certainty what Z's symbol really stood for. Only Z can tell us for sure if it meant anything at all.

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wm034.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.199.164) on Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 03:01 am:

The most impressive thing about this case is the signal-to-noise ratio it generates. The ambiguity of the Z communications is genuinely impressive, and indicative of either some kind of awful mutant genius or a genuine indicator of demonic possession.

The Priory Of Sion/Merovingian bloodline claptrap didn't come down the pike until well after the Z spree, so I rather tend to doubt that it has any real relevance.

I've been looking at this case since Penn's first article in that CALIFORNIA magazine came out, and I share MHoward's interest in a possible connection with the Texarkana Moonlight Murderer. The MO is so similar that it is either the same perp or an imitator.

As far as the cross in the circle goes, Penn's ORIGINAL thesis, as presented in his letter to the Chronicle predating the "George Oakes" article (and referenced in CALIFORNIA magazine) was that Z was a nuclear weapons expert working out of Travis AFB, and that the symbol was a crosshairs.

The misspellings in the letters are equally interesting from the standpoint of Z using earlier incidents of this type of crime as source material. The periodic substitution of "e" for "i" and vice versa pops up not only in the Z literature, but in the Ripper material and the Son Of Sam texts.

Referencing earlier crimes of this sort in this way is a very odd (and very spooky) tactic.

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wj073.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.198.53) on Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 08:30 am:

None of the above should be construed to indicate that I am harboring any weird notions like the nuke expert theory. I'm pretty much sold on ALA as the best suspect, although Kane certainly looks the part.

After 20 years of looking at this case, I still get the feeling we're all missing something, and I just can't figure out what. If there were some contact back there, somewhere, between ALA & Kane, that would do it. For some reason, I've always had a hunch that Z was more than one person.

By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-tc084.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.17.59) on Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 10:14 am:

I think the only real connection between Z and the Phantom of Texarkana was that one may have influenced the other; they were only separated by 20 years, after all, and even though the Phantom is not all that well known today, Z almost certainly heard about him back in the 40's (assuming Foukes' and Zelms' estimate of his age was accurate, Z could have been anywhere from about 12 to 22 at the time the Phantom was doing his thing). I'd be surprised if he hadn't heard of him.

Bill Beeman suggested that his brother Jack may have actually been the Phantom (he was born in 1917, as I recall), and later became Z. After Jack died in 1984, a paper was found among his effects that listed 84 somethings (Bill didn't know what), that he assumed represented 84 murders, which would mean that Jack had been killing people for quite some time. How Bill leapt to that conclusion is anyone's guess.

By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (ac95cce2.ipt.aol.com - 172.149.204.226) on Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 10:50 am:

OK, time to start a new Lawrence Kane thread...

By Realtor (Realtor) (208.128.16.97) on Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 11:12 am:

Bruce:

You wrote:

Third, the crossed-circle symbol is used in MANY forms through the centuries, but in terms of religious or biblical connotation, it is NOT part of Hebrew theology and does not appear in the Bible AT ALL, not even in the New Testament. The cross itself does not really come to be a Christian symbol until the fifth century, and the CROSSED-CIRCLE much later with the Celts.

I want to point out that neither Gardner, nor I quoting Gardner, said anything about the Hebrew theology telling us what the Mark of Cain looked like. There were intelligent peoples besides the Hebrews at the time who wrote down lots of stuff.

Most everybody on this board seems real quick to make a judgement and bash a contribution. All I wanted to post was that (1) I was reading a book on a subject I enjoy, minding my own business when (2) the Zodiac symbol was on the page I was reading and an origin/meaning of the symbol that none of us who visit this board had mentioned so (3) I leaped from my couch and posted what I thought then (and believe now) is an interesting little tidbit. Maybe it means nothing at all, but we are going to think of ourselves as EXPERTS on Zodiac, keeping track of the dates, the victims, what they wore, what he wore, what the caliber of the guns were, the lengths of the knives, the color of the cars, the amount of light on the Stine shooting scene, etc., etc., etc., then for crying out loud, why should we NOT know that one of the 5 ? 8? 15? origins of the Zodiac symbol was the MARK OF CAIN??? How rude can you people be???

We have a suspect named Kane/Cane. Ain't it AT LEAST NOTEWORTHY??? Couldn't our guy have read something (obviously I am NOT referring to Hebrew texts, Bruce!!)and found out that tidbit? And couldn't it have triggered something in him?

YES IT'S WILD SPECULATION!! And yes, for the 80th time, only Z can tell us for sure what it means. But really, folks, it was JUST a contribution to the fund of knowledge. Have a little heart. And keep an open mind, for crying out loud.

Realtor

By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (mail.ci.colospgs.co.us - 204.131.210.1) on Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 02:02 pm:

REALTOR:
I want to point out that neither Gardner, nor I quoting Gardner, said anything about the Hebrew theology telling us what the Mark of Cain looked like. There were intelligent peoples besides the Hebrews at the time who wrote down lots of stuff.

BRUCE:
Believe me, I am well aware of the "intelligent peoples" that pervade the ancient Near East and Egypt. Indeed, most of the famous stories you find in the Bible were actually derived from the mythology of these older cultures. But THAT is not the point! You (and this Gardner apparently) have cited this CROSSED-CIRCLE CROSS as being the "sign of Cain" which, as I have pointed out, is a grossly exaggerated claim with no basis in historical or even theological fact. Now, if you wish to make claims that the crossed-circle symbol appeared in the hieroglyphs and texts of other ancient cultures, that is true (but usually it represents the sun over the cross of the winter solstice and the vernal equinox--the source of extensive ancient mythology), but that does nothing to get you to the biblical name "Cain" (Qayin), and summarily KANE, as being represented by that same symbol. Do you understand the point I am making here?

REALTOR:
Most everybody on this board seems real quick to make a judgement and bash a contribution.

BRUCE:
I was not bashing you for "making a contribution." Indeed, I would encourage you and anyone else to post such information, if only to have it available should any real "connections" come up in the future. However, if there are problems to be identified with such an association, then those problems should be presented as well; if only to control the speculation factor on unsupported material.

All I'm saying is that we should be careful about THE LENGTHS to which we (all of us) are willing to go in making any sort of "connections" here.

Now, if you happened to be perusing the San Francisco public library and came across a book on ancient Near Eastern religion and sacred symbols, and discovered that on such-and-such a date in 1966 a certain L. Kane had checked it out, THAT would be compelling evidence!

REALTOR:
Maybe it means nothing at all, but we are going to think of ourselves as EXPERTS on Zodiac, keeping track of the dates, the victims, what they wore, what he wore, what the caliber of the guns were, the lengths of the knives, the color of the cars, the amount of light on the Stine shooting scene, etc., etc., etc., then for crying out loud, why should we NOT know that one of the 5 ? 8? 15? origins of the Zodiac symbol was the MARK OF CAIN??? How rude can you people be???

BRUCE:
It's not a matter of being "rude," Realtor. Again, no one is faulting you for mentioning the material. The counter-response, countering the content and accuracy of that material, was simply a critical examination of the rhetorical problems associated with it; this, in and of itself, is NOT rudeness.

REALTOR:
We have a suspect named Kane/Cane. Ain't it AT LEAST NOTEWORTHY??? Couldn't our guy have read something (obviously I am NOT referring to Hebrew texts, Bruce!!)and found out that tidbit? And couldn't it have triggered something in him?

BRUCE:
Yeah, it "could have" happened that way, but then how likely is it and what evidence do you have to support such a could-have-been scenario? Is there any evidence in Kane's life history that he studied or had an interest in these ancient cultures? Is there such a book (as I mentioned above) that he checked-out from the library? These are the types of circumstantial pieces of evidence you would need to present to bolster the claim. This material does not even qualify as circumstantial evidence (as opposed to, say, Allen's Zodiac watch, which DOES classify as circumstantial evidence), let alone give us cause to direct time and resources pursuing it further.

Also, Realtor, the fact that you cite the biblical "Mark of Cain" most certainly DOES make this a Hebrew text issue! It matters not that the Cain/Abel story was most likely derived from an earlier tale from another culture; what matters is that "Cain" is the name given in the Hebrew Bible (e.g., Torah, e.g., Old Testament).

REALTOR:
YES IT'S WILD SPECULATION!! And yes, for the 80th time, only Z can tell us for sure what it means. But really, folks, it was JUST a contribution to the fund of knowledge. Have a little heart. And keep an open mind, for crying out loud.

BRUCE:
I apologize if anything I said hurt your feelings--it was not indended as such, I assure you. You posted the information and now we have it on record for future reference. Again, no one is dogging you for making the observation

By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (mail.ci.colospgs.co.us - 204.131.210.1) on Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 02:05 pm:

ALANC:
For some reason, I've always had a hunch that Z was more than one person.

BRUCE:
You aren't alone! There are A LOT OF REASONS to think this is the case.

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-ta017.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.205.18) on Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 03:51 pm:

This board is terrific, Tom deserves nothing but praise for what he's done with this whole site. I've been lurking here for a while, and the quality of the research is outstanding.

That said, there's more noise here than there should be. Ad hominem attacks should be banned, period. There's too much of that nonsense here. I have nothing but contempt for the Jon-Benet/Zodiac speculation, based simply on Occam's Razor, but that doesn't translate into contempt for the person who posted it.

A little more respect for the host of this party and the other guests would definitely result in better work.

Bruce, you seem to have a real talent for the contrarian position. Can you present a list of reasons that can be sourced on this board that might suggest the involvement of more than one person in the perpetration of these crimes? I'm just getting back into this case, casually, and I'm also pretty busy with something else right now.

Maybe Tom can construct a "Multiple Perps?" category for this discussion.

By Peterh (Peterh) (adsl-141-154-81-230.bostma.adsl.bellatlantic.net - 141.154.81.230) on Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 04:03 pm:

Start with the two radically different but roughly equally supported composite drawings of the Berryessa and SF responsibles. Then move on to the significally different MOs and personation for (1) BRS and LHR, (2) LB, and (3) SF. Continue with the clear and repeated claims of responsibility for LHR, BRS and SF as compared with the complete lack of any claim for or even mention of LB.

PeterH

By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (ac832ecd.ipt.aol.com - 172.131.46.205) on Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 04:45 pm:

Another thread needs to be started for this discussion, perhaps in the Theories topic.

By Esau (Esau) (cc129455-a.rcrdva1.ca.home.com - 24.176.178.187) on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 05:13 pm:

Back to Kane. I remember reading an article in the paper back in the early 90's. I think it was in the SF Chronicle. It talked about a suspect that was a real estate salesman and now lives in the Tahoe area. I'm sure that they must have been speaking of Kane. Anyway, there was something in the article about a young couple in Las Vegas that were partying out in the desert. A man pulled up in a car and abducted the girl at gunpoint. The girl was later found dead. A few months later the man was in a bar and spotted who he thought was the abductor. He called the police but if I remember correctly the police didn't seem interested. The man identified a photo of the real estate salesman as the abductor. Does anyone here know anything about that?

By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-ta043.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.16.38) on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 08:59 pm:

Esau: it's one of the sources of Z-info I listed in Zodiac Publications. Even though I focused primarily on books, this was the only published source (at the time) of information about Kane that I know about.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Sunday, February 25, 2001 - 07:22 pm:

Esau: The girl was Dana Lull ,from Las Vegas. The suspect is Kane, he was living in Vegas in 74 when that happened. I hope you see this post, it looks like no one has been here for a while!

By Terri H (Terri) (dhcp065-024-048-076.columbus.rr.com - 65.24.48.76) on Saturday, March 24, 2001 - 10:37 am:

Why is the capital "Z" missing from Kane's sample handwriting? Did they make him spell out words as well? Did they make him give sample handwriting using both his left and right hands? Was Kane ever seen with Darlene F.'s husband or ex?

By Terri H (Terri) (dhcp065-024-048-076.columbus.rr.com - 65.24.48.76) on Saturday, March 24, 2001 - 02:54 pm:

Disregard that question about the words, I saw them. Anyway, what about the other questions? Has this already been covered? If so, maybe a kind point in the right direction. Thanks.

By Sandy (Sandy) (ppp-64-175-140-34.dialup.wnck11.pacbell.net - 64.175.140.34) on Monday, January 28, 2002 - 11:13 pm:

Have any of you seen the latest known picture of kane? I just saw it on Ryan Olesin's Zodiac site, he has the address on this weeks posting! He sure is one brave guy to post it!! Thanks Ryan, I am looking forward to hearing from the person who posted as "Anonymous" on Oct 1 2000 as a friend of Kane's aka Cane.How old do any of you think he looks? Not as old as Harvey say's he is!

By Oddball (Oddball) (slip-32-103-46-87.al.us.prserv.net - 32.103.46.87) on Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 04:45 am:

I always wondered about that post myself, Sandy.

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-tn022.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.207.52) on Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 09:45 am:

Sandy,
Ryan notes that that photo was taken 12 yrs. ago so I'd say the age could be correct.

By Ryan Olesin (Ryan) (d150-160-190.home.cgocable.net - 24.150.160.190) on Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 11:34 am:

Sandy, when you sent the picture to me you said it was around 1990.

Ryan

By Sandy (Sandy) (ppp-64-175-140-145.dialup.wnck11.pacbell.net - 64.175.140.145) on Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 08:52 pm:

It was taken Aug.of 90 in Antioch,Ca.6:30pm. He still looks like that picture,but with more gray in his hair. To me he looked about 55 in 90,and he should have been about 66. The clothes he had on were that of a construction worker,he had gray dust on his knees ,hands and top of his boots.I thought he looked like he had worked with Plaster or concrete.I was told he did work for A-1 Plastering. It just seems odd to me that Mr.Realestate is also a mason, and was still working in 90. I am hopeful that someone who has worked with him,can tell us more about this guy,and what other name he may be useing now. In 90 he did use the first name Tony.The initials that were put on Pam H. garage door along with the large 187 were T.R.

By Curt (Curt) (63.174.96.167) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 08:34 am:

I am looking for a copy of Rider McDowell's article On the Trail of the Zodiac.

I've done an internet, Lexis/Nexis, and WestLaw search and can't turn up anything.

If anyone can tell me where to locate a copy of this or if you have an electronic copy, please email it to me.

Thanks,

~Curt,
The Z Files

By Curt (Curt) (63.174.96.167) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 10:24 am:

File received! Thanks!

~Curt

By Gavin (Gavin) (host213-122-44-26.in-addr.btopenworld.com - 213.122.44.26) on Monday, July 08, 2002 - 03:29 pm:

hi,Im not sure who the zodiac wsa but whenever I see a picture of kane it always makes my hairs stand on end , as for Ted K , I think he was clever enough and SOME OF THE VICTIMS WERE STUDENTS, Ive only visited California once and I loved it , I wasnt a ZODIAC FREAK then ( WELL,I couldnt use the word fan could I ).

I recently printed off several Halloween cards and sent them to a few old enemies, Id love to be there when they opened Them.

Keep up the good work Everyone

Gav ( Boss@ITCLEARANCE.COM )

By John Prisk (Prisk29) (lbv-ca21-151.rasserver.net - 199.182.113.151) on Wednesday, July 10, 2002 - 12:00 am:

Ummmmm.............. Halloween cards in July? Where were you in '69......

By Plankspanker (Plankspanker) (0-1pool133-17.nas1.tempe1.az.us.da.qwest.net - 67.3.133.17) on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 06:33 pm:

So with the apparent DNA exhonoration of all the other major suspects, why isn't LK getting any more scrutiny? I hear he's alive and living in Vegas.

By Ed N. (Ed_N) (acc1e5e2.ipt.aol.com - 172.193.229.226) on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 06:52 pm:

Plank: only three have been compared, and hopefully more will be soon. Kane doesn't currently live in LV, as far as I know, although he apparently did from ca. 1970-74.

By Julia (Julia) (user-2ivfid1.dialup.mindspring.com - 165.247.201.161) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 01:44 am:

A small point I noticed in perusing this site: Sandy, quite a while back, referred to someone from Lake Tahoe (she theorized it was Kane) giving the police a call about Allen. Tom asked her where she came up with that. I believe what she was recalling was an interview in the Vallejo Times Herald in '91 with Allen himself. He referred to a "false tip" that had led the police to recently search his house. He said it was given to them by a man facing 30 years in prison on an armed robbery charge, and that "the guy phoned from Tahoe and said we had a conversation in 1969 and I told him that I'd go down to San Francisco and shoot a cabbie."

"He's a punk and a hood," Allen concluded. "I've never talked to him in my life."

Anyway, there certainly doesn't seem to be any evidence to indicate that the caller was Kane. According to the ALA timeline on this site, the man Allen allegedly spoke to about killing a cabbie in '69, and who came forward about that in '91, was Ralph Spinelli, and so I assume that's who Allen was calling a punk, etc.

By ZoeGlass (Zoeglass) (max40dial.pasn.evansinet.com - 63.69.48.15) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 10:23 pm:

Realtor , yes severel of the marks are found in alchemy, does that have something to do with Cane?