Gilbert & Sullivan and the Suspects


Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Other Suspects: Gilbert & Sullivan and the Suspects

By Josephalan (Josephalan) (spider-tk072.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.206.207) on Thursday, October 05, 2000 - 04:25 pm:

I'm a new user of this service, so please forgive me if I'm going over stuff that has been previously covered. I'm wondering how come there hasn't been much made out of one of Z's primary "other" interests, specifically the light opera of Gilbert & Sullivan. Z went to enormous lengths quoting from "The Mikado," and I'm wondering if record albums or tapes of the various G&S shows were ever found in the possession of any of the suspects. For example, was anything like that found at Allen's during any of the searches? I'm also wondering about the "ploglam" notation he made, which might be a bigoted anglo reference to the inability of certain asian people to pronounce the "r." Just curious if this has been looked at. Thanks.

By Howard (Howard) (dialup-63.210.126.238.losangeles1.level3.net - 63.210.126.238) on Friday, October 06, 2000 - 01:08 am:

Josephalan,My master mind-as I have it -for the Zodiac crimes was Charles Manson. I contacted Ms old consular and he told me that the Mikado was given while Manson was in the drama club in the 60s when he was in prison. Manson and his closest friend Bruce Davis were both into music and could play instruments. Both M and D had excellent memories so even though the so called 1970 Z Mikado letter was an imperfect quote it was not that shabby considering it was probably quoted from memory as he wrote!Manson and Davis could certainly see themselves as the "Lord High Executioner" as they saw themselves as reproductions of both historical as well as mythological characters.I believe it was the "Message" Manson/ Davis saw in the Mikado and his death"list"(Manson said he "had a little list" of victims and claimed "35 victims"-Z claimed "37" in the 1/29/74 missive!).The reference to the possible 'racial slur' concerning Asian Americans is in keeping with M/Ds Race War they wanted and the "publicity" they were told by M to generate "in any way they could" by acts of "murder and violence",etc.M said "all of Ca." had to be "wired up for gore first", etc.Have you noted that in the place of the "N" word Zodiac uses "banjo seranader and OTHERS OF HIS(African American) RACE"?As far as I know and I have consulted with "Z master" Dave Peterson ,Allen did not have the works of Gilbert and Sullivan,but this does NOT exclude him or anyone else as being the Zodiac. Neither does it prove someone is the Zodiac because they were in some way involved with the Mikado-its a plus but not a must!There are, at the very least, two Z suspects that were into the Mikado/G&S.Don't apoligize we are constantly going over the same thing-its that kind of a case and we are all contributing. If someone jumps you remember its America -rude and crude is the norm!Keep up your good observations and we can all learn together-thanks to Tom for providing this site at great expense, not to mention all the time he has/is spending on the Case.

By Curt (Curt) (spider-mtc-tc022.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.105.157) on Friday, October 06, 2000 - 05:03 pm:

Joesephalan: In response to your inquiry about a Mikado discussion, I wrote a short piece about the subject because I also find it to be a fascinating area and one that is overlooked by most Zodiac researchers. It can be found at:

http://members.aol.com/Labyrinth13/X/Mikado.htm

The information there really does nothing more than provide an amateur peek into the possible psychology of what may have made the Zodiac tick and what his "motivations" might have been as far as his Mikado infatuation. Not the most in-depth study, but still, it adds something to the mysterious package of strange clues from the weirdest murder mystery there ever was!

(The full text of some of the songs that Zodiac quoted from are also included at the bottom of the page, along with a few links to some Gilbert and Sullivan sites on the 'net).

I welcome information from anyone that can be used to add depth to the Mikado piece.

Curt,
http://members.aol.com/Labyrinth13/X/ZFiles.htm

(Please note: the rest of the site is still under construction, but I will be finished with it by the end of this weekend).

By Twagner129 (Twagner129) (spider-wd052.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.193.172) on Tuesday, November 28, 2000 - 07:56 am:

Howard, to your knowledge has anyone spoken with Manson about his thoughts on the Zodiac killings? Not that he is going to confess or anything, but just to study his response to the questioning?

By Maxson (Maxson) (ip-20-152-185.chicago-n.navipath.net - 64.20.152.185) on Thursday, January 18, 2001 - 11:37 am:

Howard,
I did notice that Zodiac does not use the N word but it's really nothing of interest. In 1945, many Americans wrote to Rupert D'oyly Carte, owner of the Gilbert and Sullivan operas saying that the N word should be removed from Ko-Ko's list patter song and another song, which interestingly enough Zodiac also paraphrased in a letter. Carte removed what had been "and the
ni--er serenader and the others of his race" with "banjo serenader and the others of his race. There is something interesting here however, those lines were only used in America but in England the continued to use the N word (and still do to the best of my knowledge). If Zodiac was a Gilbert and Sullivan fan, this would seem to disprove the idea of some that Zodiac was an Englishman because if he had been a English Gilbert and Sullivan aficionado, he would have probably used the N word.

By Howard (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 64.30.209.40) on Thursday, January 18, 2001 - 05:58 pm:

Twagner-Yes! A lady wrote CM asking him to deny or confirm or if he had any thoughts on the book,etc.Manson wrote back and said I wrote the book for money(where's the money-show me the money!). Now this is what he has said about the author of Helter Skelter and ,yet, privately M told Bugliosi that he was right on and that he got it right,etc.Another book that he read was castigated as to it's premise,content and that the whole work was BS-which he wrote on a pair of his shorts and sent them to the inquirer! This he has not done with the people that have contacted him about my book.Strange. www.zodiacmurders.com

By Chalandra (Chalandra) (tsway1-53.du.gate.net - 207.36.1.180) on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 01:27 pm:

I ran across a train in Philadelphia called the Mikado steam engine #587. Wonder if Zodiac wanted us to look for another type of Mikado since he didn't use the "n" word.

By Curt (Curt) (63.174.96.47) on Friday, November 02, 2001 - 01:30 pm:

The URL to my "Mikado" article has changed to:

http://labyrinth13.crimespider.com/Mikado.htm

By Howard Davis (Howard) (spider-tj012.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.213.177) on Saturday, November 03, 2001 - 08:57 pm:

Curt,
Your site is excellent.Actually, the Mikado matches my case-it fits perfectly.I will be doing paralells on my Zodiac site.Your remark about not wanting to read my book(which is fine)because of the negative reviews does not commend you as an open minded researcher.It startled me as this is not a researchers correct atitude.I have read many books that were certainly unpopular and had "poor reviews"(movies too!)and have found interesting and helpful information that led me to other sources and ideas,etc.Most if not all, of the professional researchers I know agree.

Most of those 'reviewers' I tracked down.For example, one of those 'negative' reviewers was a friend of Bruce Davis and he finally,after I questioned him about certain areas of the book admitted to me that he only "read a few pages"!It wasn't even his book.Of course, he did not remove his review and it and some of the others still stand.I did find out that he asked Davis straight out about his poassible connection to Zodiac and was "quite surprised"when Bruce told him that he could "not talk about that case(Zodiac) as he was not charged with it."!This friend had told me that he knew BD and he would deny all involvement in the Z case.

Another could not tell me even the basics as they are found in my book.One reviewer tried to refute some of the information and didn't understand what was said ,so I easily refuted her contentions as it had no relation to my propositions.

I know at least one or two are Manson sympathizers.I don't really care for the postive reviews per se either as that doesn't make my information or conclusions correct.

My only contention with you is that poor reviews should not keep one from exploring what a particular author has found or discovered.Very disappointing atitude.A mind is like a parachute it's no good unless it's open.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-118.linkline.com - 64.30.217.118) on Sunday, November 04, 2001 - 01:43 am:

Curt,
Another thing I forgot to mention was that you give attention to Garth and his theories which are more than subject to ridicule and even intense criticism!Please see what our excellent posters have to say in their evaluations of Penns work.Just click 'Archives'and wear protective gear!You quote from his book so it shows that you either read it(I did)or have gotten information on it somewhere(Jake Warks good site?).

Now,since Penns work has been rejected by just about everyone and even held up to ridicule(big time) as I stated ,then why ,as you say on your fine site ,do you 'pass' on my book because a handful of dubious reviewers(with a few positive ones)criticized it?This is a double standard which is not befitting someone with your level of intelligence;and it would cause others after having read your statements on the site(I will link your site on zodiacmurders.com to be fair) to be turned off to my book ,but not to Penns who everyone thinks is a kook.

Now,to prove to you I have not attacked Penn as the others did -which is their right-please see 'Archives'.The few times that I refer to his work is the radian subject.I simply point out that his bisections also pass through Death Valley -which seems to have puzzled Garth(we know who hung out there in'69!)and through England(we know BD traveled there and murdered a young man)thus I pointed this out as a curiosity.-an FYI as I am wont to do.Oh yes,FYI!

By Curt (Curt) (1cust127.tnt4.krk1.da.uu.net - 63.27.1.127) on Sunday, November 04, 2001 - 08:25 am:

Howard Davis wrote: Your remark about not wanting to read my book (which is fine) because of the negative reviews does not commend you as an open minded researcher. It startled me as this is not a researchers correct atitude. I have read many books that were certainly unpopular and had "poor reviews"(movies too!) and have found interesting and helpful information that led me to other sources and ideas, etc. Most if not all, of the professional researchers I know agree.

Howard, thanks for your kind comments about my "The Z Files" article.

To some extent you are correct and it does appear that I am simply slamming your book in my article without taking the time, as a good researcher probably should, to read it and thoroughly examine your theories regarding Bruce Davis being the Zodiac. But to be completely honest (and this is already stated in my comments in the article) I know enough about the Manson case and the Zodiac case to be able to say that I truly do not believe that there are any tangible connections between the two cases whatsoever. And because I believe that quite strongly, I felt it was O.K. in my mind to save myself both the time and the money by not purchasing and reading your book. (I did go to your website and have a look around and again, saw nothing there that convinced me otherwise. Sorry, but that is my honest opinion).

I is also fair to say that my own article is an overview of the Zodiac case, not a real in-depth investigation and as such, I did not delve too deeply into many areas of the case that are fascinating and deserve a detailed examination. But I have revised my site in order to accommodate future articles and perhaps one day I will take you up on your "challenge," read your book and offer up a more detailed (and balanced) review.

Giving it further thought, I want to say that it bothers me that you may have been offended by what I have to say about your book and suspect in my article. As such, I plan to revise the language there to make it not sound quite so sarcastic (which would certainly be more of a gentlemanly thing for me to do).

Howard Davis also wrote: Another thing I forgot to mention was that you give attention to Garth and his theories which are more than subject to ridicule and even intense criticism! Please see what our excellent posters have to say in their evaluations of Penns work.

I have read, at one time or another, through darn near every post on this message board and I am well aware that Penn is a persona non-grata around here (and his own books reflect just how bogus his theories really are and I regret now having purchased them). But if you read through my "Z Files Overview" article carefully, you will see that I don't give Penn any sort of real break beyond saying that I am intrigued by his discovery of the radian clue, a theory that I happen to believe has some real merit to it and which deserves to be explored further. That is not an endorsement of Penn, but rather an endorsement of an idea.

Curt
Labyrinth13

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ntc-td041.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.17.166) on Sunday, November 04, 2001 - 12:19 pm:

Just a real quick comment as I am on the run--literally. Curt, at the very beginning I thought the Zodiac/Manson connection was quite implausible, then after reading and investigating abit, I realized there is a good possibility that there is something there. Two things that Jon Douglas said in a recent book -- (he declined to mention any suspects by name) were in his educated opinion mandatory Zodiac requirements -- 1: a known violent killer, 2: someone who was known to be in each Z killing area. The only main suspects that fit with requirement #1 are Ted K and Bruce Davis, the only ones that definitely fit with #2 are Bruce Davis and Arthur Allen (per Tom).
That's enough to at least read the book!
Furthermore I would seriously reproach you for not including Howard's website on your "Links" as Tom V and others have, that is hardly showing professional courtesy.

By Curt (Curt) (2cust21.tnt1.krk1.da.uu.net - 63.23.0.21) on Sunday, November 04, 2001 - 01:45 pm:

Sylvie:

Thanks for your reply.

Forgive me, but if John Douglas really believes that all that is needed to make someone a Zodiac suspect are the two requirements that you list above, then I'm afraid the case may never be solved! (Regarding Douglas: I used to think that his words were gospel, but I've come to suspect that he may have evolved into someone who does not worry too much about getting his facts straight these days. Accordingly, I am less inclined to value his opinion as much as I used to. Yes, he is a brilliant police investigator, but he has allowed things into print with his “seal of approval” that he has not taken the time to completely investigate himself; the example that I'm thinking about here is in relation to comments that he made about the Yorkshire Ripper murders. Sure, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but Douglas should make it known when something is just his opinion, and not something that is being stated on the record as a fact. That is exactly the kind of error that tends to get compounded as others repeat the same “fact” on down the line. End of rant).

Re your opinion that I owe “professional courtesy” to someone to provide a link to their web page: That is not a sentiment that I happen to share. For example, I have Tom Voigt’s site linked off of mine, yet my own site is not linked from here and I don’t feel that Tom Voigt owes me a link. My reason for linking Tom’s site is that I believe that there is relevant information to be found here and I want to point other people’s browsers to his site. Frankly, I just don’t feel the same about Howard’s site because I don't hold with his theories that Bruce Davis is the Zodiac killer.

If I really wanted to, I bet you that I could create a viable Zodiac suspect out of just about anyone who has a violent background and who could have been in the Z killing areas at the time of the murders.

For the record, it is my personal opinion that Zodiac probably is not even among any of the suspects that others favor to date. Further, I think that what we know about the Zodiac is not much more than what the real killer revealed to us from day one.

Curt,
Labyrinth13

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (c1783462-a.epotlnd1.or.home.com - 24.248.50.12) on Sunday, November 04, 2001 - 02:59 pm:

Except for the Truth is Redacted site (I owed him a favor), all of the sites I link to specialize in Zodiac only.

By Bookworm (Bookworm) (cb23775-b.rmvll1.il.home.com - 24.182.40.121) on Sunday, November 04, 2001 - 03:14 pm:

Josephalan, what "ploglam" notation?

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (c1783462-a.epotlnd1.or.home.com - 24.248.50.12) on Sunday, November 04, 2001 - 03:19 pm:

Bookwoorm, quit posting and do more clicking...then you might know what he is referring to.

By Curt (Curt) (1cust188.tnt3.krk1.da.uu.net - 63.23.255.188) on Sunday, November 04, 2001 - 07:35 pm:

Regarding whether to link or not to link, Tom Voigt wrote: Except for the Truth is Redacted site (I owed him a favor), all of the sites I link to specialize in Zodiac only.

My only requirements for linking are: whether or not I feel that a websurfer who comes to my site would benefit from the information that is on the other person's site or, as you state above, if we have agreed to a mutual link exchange (and we both feel that our sites are compatible with each other's).

Curt,
Labyrinth13

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ntc-tb034.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.16.164) on Monday, November 05, 2001 - 07:13 am:

Just to clarify, Douglas' requirements were merely fundamentals upon which to "go from there".

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 64.30.209.40) on Monday, November 05, 2001 - 04:15 pm:

Curt,
I wish to know what is the depth and time commitment you have put into exclusive research into Bruce Davis, besides the usual books which will give you nothing except a bit or piece);his real interests;his family,friends both past and present;criminal secret police reports ,including his prison records not available to the public.Have you done a good background on him and then came to your conclusions after serious reflection based on the criteria I have presented?
For example,Tom has gone into great depth into his suspects background and has made a presentation to the public with even more information that I am sure will surface from him as he sees fit.He earns a hearing from all of us so that if we either accept,reject or withhold judgement until the DNA is made public ,we at least,can render a partial judgement on Allens guilt or innocence.
I don't feel-thus far, and I could be wrong(as I was hoping for some definite reasons)you have done an in depth background -so I cannot place any real confidence in your opinions whatsoever.I say this in a detached expression free of any emotion(that clouds reason).I would quite enjoy any contrary solid evidence and what that evidence is so I can properly evaluate it.
I say this as your wording indicates in depth knowledge ,but does not show us what and whom or even where you accumulated it.
Now, Dave Peterson was with the Zodiac case since 12/20/68 and this is someone that has more experience than anyone on the Board and he really knew the Zodiac case,and after study/thought(and a ton of tough questions ,debate and proof of evidence,etc.) he came to the conclusion my suspect and presentation had so much merit that he decided to not only work with me for several years,but also endorse my work ,which he even added to greatly.
Incidentally, from the latter part 1969 and 1970/1 ,Peterson believed Zodiac had a connection to Manson,etc.(as did former Inyo Co.District Attorney Frank Fowles and others including an Assistant DA)and tried to get detectives to look into it,but they were mentally locked-like the Riverside PD to their local boy- a local guy connection(very 40's/50's)and would not pursue it.So Peterson is the real originator of the CM connection.I did not know this when ,in 1987 I began my research on a well placed tip I got in 1974,which has not professionally disappointed me or Peterson in the slightest.
As far as links go, of course, I did not even address that ,as my questions were directed towards a different topic.I do note that you feel that the very fine Batman site by Eduard is of merit and meets your standards of proof and evidence,etc.I was the first to offer that possible connection as a Zodiac 'influence' in my book and only placed a little of my research in the book .
Eduard has done an excellent job of in depth research on this possible connection and is to be highly commended ,which I have done countless of times both public and private and have linked it to my site.Linking, as well as book reviews, is a personal decision and is up to each webmaster.All I ever desire is a professional approach when work is presented and this means a balanced review or comment free of sarcasm(an American trait)with at least some solid reasons for either rejection or acceptance.I don't even require any links,or mention,but if there is,it should be fair and professional.

By Curt (Curt) (63.174.96.128) on Monday, November 05, 2001 - 04:29 pm:

Howard Davis asked, "I wish to know what is the depth and time commitment you have put into exclusive research into Bruce Davis . . ."

None, as I have three different writing projects that I am working on at the moment (and, I would add, I have no interest in the subject of Bruce Davis as Zodiac).

Curt,
Labyrinth13

By Curt (Curt) (63.174.96.128) on Monday, November 05, 2001 - 04:32 pm:

Howard Davis stated, "I do note that you feel that the very fine Batman site by Eduard is of merit and meets your standards of proof and evidence,etc."

No, I linked Eduard simply because we agreed on a mutual link exchange and because I happen to like Batman.

Curt,
Labyrinth13

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 64.30.209.40) on Monday, November 05, 2001 - 07:32 pm:

Curt,
Thank you for your honesty.Your site does have some great points . I hope everyone will visit it. I have asked my webmaster to link it.I hope you don't mind as I think your information is of value to the Zodiac case.Every stone helps in building an edifice.

By Curt (Curt) (1cust14.tnt3.krk1.da.uu.net - 63.23.255.14) on Tuesday, November 06, 2001 - 06:14 am:

Thanks, Howard; you the man.

Curt,
Labyrinth13