Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Other Suspects: Mike Mageau

About a month ago I started to reread Graysmith's Zodiac and the chapter about Ferrin & Mageau's attack really bugged me. It would probably be no big deal, but there's a hell of a lot of strange things about Mageau. I don't really know where I'm going with this either, meaning I don't really even know if I'd consider him a major suspect, but I think when you look at a lot of facts about the attack it's very strange to say the least and there are hundreds why he's not a suspect or a good one, but looking back on the night of the attack something just doesn't set right.

Why was he wearing so many layers of clothing? It was July, he was uncomfortable with his weight, maybe but to have on as many layers as he did and the type of clothing.

And how come no one saw two cars racing around, and why did they head to a remote lovers lane, and when her car stalled why did they just stay and why wasn't he worried about the chase when he asked her who it was and she said don't worry about. If someone had just chased me I'd want to know who it was and why they were chasing us.

How did the inside car door handle just magically appear?

Why did it take him so long to identify Leigh, police don't ask you to indentify don't you worry abit being at that point and time you're the only survivor, if they don't ask don't you'd think you'd maybe call ask volunteer to look at some pictures.

Darlene said to her sister and mother something big was going to happen, and didn't she tell her mom she'd be in the news the next day? But anyways if this is what she ment why would she get someone, who was suppose to be a friend involve without warning them what may be ahead. I wouldn't take one of my friends out and risk they're life, you can say protection, but wouldn't you a least inform them what's going on?

Another thing I find a little strange, why would you leave all the lights on with the television blarring, was to make it look like he was home?

I'm at work right now and sure there were some other things that didn' set right with me, but I just can't think of them right now.

I mean on the one hand you say he got shot and in the jaw at that, but what if there was some kind of struggle and he got shot on accident, but then there was call that he couldn't have made, but it's been speculated that perhaps zodiac was more than one person, maybe his brother was involved after all they did fight over Darlene maybe some kind of rage killed her.

The cop said Mageau was bizzare and Darlene's sister claims Mageau knows he did it, does anyone know why she thinks that, I just saw the captian under the Mageau pictures on this site.

I'll agree that there are millions of reasons why Mageau isn't a good suspect, but I think it's hard to disagree that a lot of strange things happened that night involving Mageau.

Darlene said to her sister and mother something big was going to happen, and didn't she tell her mom she'd be in the news the next day?

I'll bet you anything that this was an allusion to her sister having won runner-up in the "Miss Firecracker" contest, which would have been a big deal for Darlene, especially since she got to ride in the boat parade. The event made the newspapers, although to the best of my knowledge, Darlene wasn't mentioned.

Ryedawg wrote:

Why was he wearing so many layers of clothing? It was July, he was uncomfortable with his weight, maybe but to have on as many layers as he did and the type of clothing.

We discussed this a few months back, and I'm not sure what the consensus was, but I opined it was just because he was weird.

And how come no one saw two cars racing around, and why did they head to a remote lovers lane, and when her car stalled why did they just stay and why wasn't he worried about the chase when he asked her who it was and she said don't worry about.

According to Tom, that didn't happen. Graysmith fictionalized that whole incident to make it more exciting. It seems that Ferrin and Mageau went to BRS for whatever reason, and Z attacked them at random.

Why did it take him so long to identify Leigh, police don't ask you to indentify don't you worry abit being at that point and time you're the only survivor, if they don't ask don't you'd think you'd maybe call ask volunteer to look at some pictures.

Apparently, as per typical VPD, they dropped the ball on this one too. They never showed Mageau any photos of suspects, they just asked if he recognized any names, which he apparently didn't. It wasn't until 1991 (I think) that someone thought to do a photo lineup, and that's when he ID'd Allen.

I mean on the one hand you say he got shot and in the jaw at that, but what if there was some kind of struggle and he got shot on accident, but then there was call that he couldn't have made...

I think that if he was shot in the jaw during a struggle with Darlene, about the only trajectory for a bullet under those circumstances would be up through his jaw, which would (or should) have been recognized by the cops at the scene or the doctor who removed the bullets.

The cop said Mageau was bizzare and Darlene's sister claims Mageau knows he did it, does anyone know why she thinks that, I just saw the captian under the Mageau pictures on this site.

I think Pam said that she knew he knew who did it, not that she knew he did it.

"Apparently, as per typical VPD, they dropped the ball on this one too. They never showed Mageau any photos of suspects, they just asked if he recognized any names..."

According to the VPD reports, Mageau was shown photos of suspects at least three times; two of these instances were shortly after the shooting.

And how come no one saw two cars racing around, and why did they head to a remote lovers lane, and when her car stalled why did they just stay and why wasn't he worried about the chase when he asked her who it was and she said don't worry about.

>>"According to Tom, that didn't happen. Graysmith fictionalized that whole incident to make it more exciting. It seems that Ferrin and Mageau went to BRS for whatever reason, and Z attacked them at random."

Mageau never mentioned anything remotely similar to this version of events to VPD after the shooting, and the available VPD reports (spanning years) make no mention of Mageau ever changing his story. Ed Rust, who was the first to interview Mageau after the shooting, has stated that he believes that Mageau's initial story was truthful and that there is no credible evidence to contradict the original version of the events that night.

I don't have documentation of Mageau being shown photos of suspects, but I believe it happened. No agency is so incompetent they would neglect such a crucial step.
In 1991, George Bawart of VPD displayed an array of suspects for Mageau, and Allen was picked as "the man who shot me." When asked why he had not identified Allen in the previous 22 years, Bawart quoted Mageau as saying, "They never showed me pictures until now...just names." Probably what Mageau meant was he was never shown ALLEN'S picture. It doesn't matter, anyway. Mageau's ID was far too late to be significant.

I have the documentation if you wants copies for your files.

According to you, several of the agencies seriously believed that Allen might be the Zodiac. They searched his trailer, talked to his friends, family and coworkers, gave him a lie detector test, etc., etc. but never showed his photo to a surviving victim who saw the killer? If so many detectives considered him to be the "best suspect" during the '70's and 80's, why wasn't Mageau ever shown pictures of Allen during the 20 years between 1971 and 1991? I've heard it said that no one could find Mageau, but that just seems downright ridiculous to me. Just my opinion.

If these detectives really believed that Allen was the Zodiac and never acted to obtain an ID from Mageau until 1991, that is incompetance.

Obviously, the evidence against Allen is circumstantial or he would have been charged with the Zodiac crimes. But to question if he was considered the best suspect by law enforcement is a bit odd. How can you argue that point when Allen was the ONLY Zodiac suspect ever deemed worthy of a search warrant? Not by one jurisdiction, but two...SFPD and VPD.

"If these detectives really believed that Allen was the Zodiac and never acted to obtain an ID from Mageau until 1991, that is
incompetance."

Nobody has ever accused VPD of being competent regarding this case. My assumption is that jurisdictions outside of Vallejo probably figured Mageau had already been shown Allen's pic.

Ryedawg wrote "how did the door handle just
magically appear"
This is something that has always bugged me.I find Graysmith's explanation hard to swallow. Given, like Ive said before, that this was a murder scene and one would suppose a thorough search of the car was carried out.I find it strange this was not dealt with more satisfactorly.There always was the possibility that it was tampered with in an attempt to delay a quick exit.Zodiac may have wanted to ensure that no one got a chance to run a second time. There are so many things including the phone calls that night, around this section of the case, that have not been adequately explained.I would have thought the most likely person to have rang Darlene that night as she was about to drop the babysitters home, would have been Mageau. Given she drove straight to his house and apparently she did not get out of the car, may suggest she was expected.Again,I believe, according to Mageau,instead of going for something to eat they drove out to that area on Darlene's insistence, so they could talk. This would appear to imply it was something of a serious enough nature if this subject could not be discussed while getting something to eat.It is unlikely that this had anything to do with a date since he was impersonating an onion at the time.

According to Mageau, he had been painting all day. When Dee came over, he quickly put on clothes that were "more presentable"...without taking off what he had been wearing. Whatever. I did stranger things than that when I was 19. (Still do.)
According to Dee's brother Leo, Dee went to Blue Rock Springs that night to buy weed. I spoke to Leo at length in December 1998.

The doorhandle story, as far as I know, originated in the yellow book. I fail to remember any mention of it in the police report. I seem to recall asking Dean Ferrin about it, but can't remember his response. I think the story is overblown BS.

Tom wrote: "But to question if he was considered the best suspect by law enforcement is a bit odd. How can you argue that point when Allen was the ONLY Zodiac suspect ever deemed worthy of a search warrant? Not by one jurisdiction, but two...SFPD and VPD."

There's nothing odd about it.

The fact that the judge issued the warrant is not proof of Allen's guilt. Search warrants are investigatve tools -- nothing more. The fact that a detective has to convince a judge that there is reason to suspect a person MIGHT have committed a crime, and that the search MIGHT yeild evidence to prove as much is merely an exercise of our system of justice. No matter how convinced the judge or detectives might be that there is reason to believe someone committed a crime, their suspicion is not evidence. In my opinion, the fact that the VPD found nothing to link Allen to the Zodiac's crimes in 30 years is far more compelling than the information used to obtain the warrant in the first place.

It seems that, after 1972, the SFPD no longer considered Allen a viable suspect. WHY? Because they found no evidence to confirm their early suspicions, and moved on to examine other suspects. The VPD considers their Zodiac case to be unsolved.

By your logic, Richard Jewel is the "best suspect" in the Atlanta-Olympics bombing simply because some detectives thought he was quilty and convinced a judge to grant a search warrant.

The Vallejo police investigated Allen and found no credible evidence to link him to the Zodiac crimes.

The DOJ investigated Allen, and officials in the DOJ at the time have stated that it was the department's position that Allen was not the Zodaic. Agents who worked for that agency such as Nicolai and Silver may believe that Allen was the Zodiac, but there are other agents who were just as convinced that he was not.

To the best of my knowledge, the Sonoma Co. police failed to find any evidence to link Allen to the Zodiac crimes.

To the best of my knowledge, none of the detectives who investigated Allen over 20 years were able to develop any credible evidence linking Allen to the Zodiac crimes.

The VPD re-animated their investigation of Allen based on the more-than-questionable claims of a man who was attempting to bargain his way out of a 30-year prison sentence, and the VPD was unable to find anything linking Allen to the Zodiac crimes during two searches of his home.

Two quote Edward: "This speaks volumes in and of itself."

Gregorypraxas wrote,
"The fact that the judge issued the warrant is not proof of Allen's guilt."

Duh.
I'm not implying Allen was guilty in these posts. However, I am trying to correct your erroneous thinking that Allen was not considered the best suspect in the Zodiac case. Next are you going to question whether Allen was ever a suspect at all?

"It seems that, after 1972, the SFPD no longer considered Allen a viable suspect. WHY? Because they found no evidence to
confirm their early suspicions, and moved on to examine other suspects. The VPD considers their Zodiac case to be unsolved."

Wrong. Dave Toschi still thinks Allen is guilty, and Bill Armstrong recently called him "the most viable suspect we ever had." That seems to contradict your statements a tad.
I challenge you to name any other suspect SFPD seriously looked at until Ted Kaczynski and Lawrence Kane in the late 1990s.
As far as VPD is concerned, what do you expect them to say? All of the cases are unsolved. For once they were correct.

According to the available information, the SFPD never did anything to pursue Allen as a suspect after 1972. That alone speaks volumes on their opinions. Whether or not they pursued other suspects as vigorously is still not evidence that Allen may have been the Zodiac. The absence of better suspects does not automatically qualify Allen as the "best suspect."

Toschi and Armstrong may say that he was the best suspect, but, again, what is the basis for this statement? Is it a hunch, a gut feeling? WHAT? There certainly is no credible evidence on which to base such a conclusion. In fact, the total lack of any credible evidence to link Allen to the Zodiac crimes would seem very good reason to believe he was not the Zodiac.

There's nothing erroneous about my thinking, Tom. You give me one instance where anyone working for the SFPD pursued Allen as a suspect after 1972? If he was "the best suspect" why did they literally seem to forget he existed after that?

Armstrong's statement does not contradict my statement. When did Armstrong leave homicide? In 1976? Are you telling me he was aware of every suspect investigated after that? Do YOU have any evidence that the SFPD, or Toschi for that matter, never seriously looked at any other suspects until Kane and TK? Maybe they didn't ask for any other search warrants, but it is absurd to suggest that they did not look at other suspects after they were unable to develop any evidence against Allen.

I never said that some police didn't think Allen was a good suspect. What I said was that AFTER the initial investigation of Allen in 1971/1972, the SFPD showed no documented interest in him as a suspect. They believed - IN 1971/1972 - that Allen was a good suspect. After they found no evidence to confirm their suspicions, they MOVED ON TO OTHER SUSPECTS. Regardless of whether they were more or less "viable" than Allen as suspects, it is obvious that the investigation into other suspects continued, and that, at the very least, Toschi was open to the idea that Allen was not the Zodiac.

Most detectives who are truly convinced that their suspect is a killer stay focused on that individual and work to build a case, no matter how difficult. The extent of the SFPD efforts indicates that they exhausted their options in this regard, and simply conceded that there was no evidence to confirm their suspicions -- I.E., Allen was no longer that great of a suspect.

The statements of Spinelli can hardly be taken seriously. Yet, the VPD used this as an excuse to resurrect the Allen investigation. In this instance, there was no legitimate basis to conclude that the evidence against Allen had magically improved over time, and Spinelli's incredulous claim hardly tips the scale. The entire 1991 investigation of Allen seems to have been founded on little more than the unsubstantiated theory that Allen MIGHT be the Zodiac -- and NOT any credible evidence.

AGAIN, I ask you to explain WHY, and by what standards he should continue to be considered the "best suspect"? Because they got a search warrant for him and no one else? We've all seen the evidence upon which the request for that warrant was based. There's nothing there. And they found nothing when they conducted the search.
And please -- PLEASE -- don't tell me that some detectives thought he was, because opinions or gut feelings based on the information we have seen do not constitute a reason to believe Allen was the Zodiac.

I'd like to see someone present one scrap of credible evidence to indicate that Allen was the Zodiac that is not:

*based on the suspicions of detectives who were unable to develop any evidence to link Allen to the Zodiac crimes
*based on the questionable testimony that Allen is alleged to have made incriminating statements to people who had reason to lie about Allen's statements to police
*based on extremely flawed and contradictory eyewitness testimony

ONE scrap of credible evidence. Please. I'd like to believe that Allen is the Zodiac. I'd be thrilled if someone solved this case. But I am awful tired of hearing the words "Allen is the best suspect" thrown around without any credible evidence to support this claim, and I am awful tired of people overlooking the fact that there is no credible evidence to indicate that Allen was the Zodiac while making these statements.

And I'm sick of the double standard. If you dismiss other suspects based on the fact that there is no credible evidence to suggest that they were Zodiac, then it's time to boot Allen out the door and put him back with the general population of "nonviable suspects" until someone comes up with some credible evidence to justify the "erroneous" conclusion that Allen *IS* -- not WAS -- the "best suspect".

You apparently think there are legitimate reasons to suspect Allen.

So, let's hear them.

As I posted earlier, I'm not implying Allen was Zodiac in these posts. I am attempting to correct your thinking.

Gregorypraxas wrote,
"I say that the VPD was the only agency that believed Allen was the Zodiac because, based on the best evidence available, it
seems to be the truth. The SFPD may have thought he was a good suspect, but it is clear that they were eager to entertain the
idea that someone else was the Zodiac in the decades after that search. The comments of many police officers (some in print,
some in private) indicate that it was only the VPD who seriously believed Allen was the Zodiac. Officials in the CADOJ didn't
believe Allen was the Zodiac, and, with the exception of a handful of detectives (some questionable sources themselves), I have
yet to see any documentation that indicates that anyone but the VPD considered Allen a "viable" suspect after 1972."

Allen was interviewed and polygraphed while in Atascadero by the DOJ and Sonoma County Sheriff's Department. This was apparently in 1977. The Santa Rosa PD also investigated Allen in the mid 1970s, and so did the Solano County Sheriff's Department.
How many more examples do you need?

Thanx everyone for their input.

I meant to write Darlene's sister said Mageau knows who did, sorry. Everyone seemed to have collectively make a comment about all my points, but no one responded to why she feels that, probably because I miswrote the line, but does anyone know why she feels that and does she still feel that why, being she said eight years ago. I'd be interested in any information any one has about the situation.
thanx

Gregorypraxas wrote:
By your logic, Richard Jewel is the "best suspect" in the Atlanta-Olympics bombing simply because some detectives thought he was quilty and
convinced a judge to grant a search warrant.

You seem to forget that Richard Jewel was considered the "best suspect" by both local authorities and the FBI. When that got picked up by the media it made his life a living hell. He was cleared fairly quickly, whereas Allen was not.

ONE scrap of credible evidence. Please.

Credible evidence is subjective. That's why we have courts and juries. They decide what's credible to them. One scrap? How about three for now:

1. Allen wore a Zodiac watch and (depending on who you believe, him or his brother) lied about when he had recieved it.

2. Allen volunteered he had a bloody knife the day of the Berryessa attack when no one asked him about bloody knife.

3. Witnesses (note the plural usage) came forward alledging Allen was the Zodiac. According to Tom, one's a millionaire who to this day still alledges that.


More later,

Edward

Edward wrote,
"1. Allen wore a Zodiac watch and (depending on who you believe, him or his brother) lied about when he had recieved it.

2. Allen volunteered he had a bloody knife the day of the Berryessa attack when no one asked him about bloody knife.

3. Witnesses (note the plural usage) came forward alledging Allen was the Zodiac. According to Tom, one's a millionaire who
to this day still alledges that."

Obviously, these points are not proof of Allen's guilt.
However, unlike with all of the other suspects, I have yet to uncover anything about Allen that strongly indicates he was not involved in the Zodiac crimes. In fact, Allen is an excellent candidate based not only on his background, but on his circumstances immediately preceding the Zodiac crimes.

Is there any basis for Graysmith's claim that Allen once bragged that he was the Zodiac? ("When
Starr was arrested as a child molester and when he was released on bail, he told all of his friends that he was being arrested because 'he was the Zodiac.'")

"An excellent candidate"? That's a stretch.

A watch is not evidence in the Zodiac case. It's not even a connection to the Zodiac crimes. It's a watch. People have made a lot of it, as if it is some sort of connection, but it's not.

Are we sure that Allen said he had that knife on his car seat THE DAY OF THE BERRYESSA MURDER? The report is unclear.

Ok -- TWO people came forward and claimed that Allen allegedly made incriminating statements. First, both the witnesses' stories don't hold up under scurtiny, and both had reasons to lie about Allen. Second, these statements are not evidence linking Allen to the Zodiac.

So, where is the ONE scrap of credible evidence linking Allen to the Zodiac crime? There is none.

Edward, I didn't forget anything. My point is this -- search warrants are not evidence that a person is guilty, and they are often not good reason to continue to suspect someone. Tom had stated that the fact that Allen was the only person served with warrants made him the best suspect. I disagreed, stating that, by that standard, Richard Jewel is still the best suspect,when he clearly is not.

Ryedawg, I met Darlenes sister Pam in 1990, she still calls me from time to time. What I remember her saying about Mike was,he had spent a lot of time with Darlene,that she must of confided in him.She felt there was a good chance Mike new who the killer was, and was threatened by the killer to keep his mouth shut.She also told me, Mike had moved down south,that his home was broken into more than once. Everything was taken from him even the eating utensils! She felt Zodiac was playing games with Mike,and letting him know he could find him anywhere.The car he saw on July 4th looked like Darlenes first husbands small brown car.I read a report that VPD asked Jim (Dees Ex)about the car, he said he left it down south! They thought about him again when Stine was shot, because now he was living in S.F.! If it was true that he left the small brown car down south,maybe his only means of transportation was a cab? He was a wife beater like OJ,they could have more in common.He even owned a 22 cal. like the one used on David and Betty lou.Talk about a good suspect?He was in Riverside in 66 lived in Vallejo at on time, then S.F. He wore black horn rimed Glasses, was in the Army at the Presidio,had crew-cut hair, was 25 yrs old, and short like most everyone said.To me Allen doesn't hold a candle to this guy!!

Gregorypraxas,

We've done the watch thing to death here. If you've read my posts you know where I stand on the issue. Other than the zodiac letters, where do the name "Zodiac" and the crossed-circle symbol appear together? Only one place: a Zodiac watch. To shuffle this off as coincidence, or give it no weight whatsoever in the Zodiac case is to ignore a possible link to the Zodiac and why he chose his name. It's not a proven connection. But you didn't ask for proof. You asked for credible evidence and I think it's credible evidence. I concede there maybe a connection. I don't discount it fully, as you appear to do.

The Mulanax report is very clear to me. They were discussing the Lake Berryessa attack when Arthur made his omission.

The stories from the two witnesses don't hold up according to you.Because one had motiveto lie does not make one a liar.

Many people have been convicted by eyewitness testimony. Is it direct physical evidencethat conclusively proves ALA is the Zodiac? No. But it is evidence linking Arthur to the Zodiac.

I knew what your point was in your Richard Jewel argument. Did you get mine?

I'm happy to hear that the case against Allen rests on a watch which apparently Allen was the only person in the world to have owned, a remark about a bloody knife, and the stories of two people who had a reason to lie.

If you've studied the Mulanax and MBPD reports, you should know that there are serious flaws with the stories about Allen and that Mulanax himself took the time to mention that one of the men telling these stories had a reason to be untruthful. This story doesn't hold up "to me" and, I would wager, anyone who takes the time to examine the facts and circumstances concerning the story. Spinelli was trying to bargain his way out of a 30-year prison sentence. That "speaks volumes."

The watch may not be the only place that the name and symbol appear for all we know. I never said that anyone should write off the watch. But, I hardly think that this constitutes good reason to call him the "best" suspect. Maybe just "suspect" would be nice, and probably far more accurate.

Fingerprint, handwriting, polygraph analysis and 30 years of fruitless investigation is not as compelling as a watch, a comment, and two incredulous stories? Ok. I get your point.

Let's just be honest, and stop calling Allen the "best" suspect. Once people just make that admission, I think their arguments would have more credibility. But as long as they continue to ignore all the exculpatory evidence in favor of this collection of tenuous and incredulous "evidence", it's difficult to take them seriously when they dismiss other suspects using the same evidence they ignore.

I wonder how some of the people called suspects became suspects. I agree there has to be more than owning a Zodiac watch or wearing horned rimmed glasses. What exactly was reported to the police about Allen. Is there more information on these details or are they not public?

Gregorypraxas, exactly who do you consider to be "the best" Zodiac suspect? Word games are silly. I made it perfectly clear that I was NOT attempting to make a case against Allen in these posts, but rather correct your errant opinion that law enforcement didn't think much of Allen as a suspect.
Here are a few tidbits that apply to suspect Allen and nobody else:
1) Allen was investigated as a Zodiac suspect by at least 8 law enforcement agencies

2) Two search warrants were served against Allen as Zodiac, by SFPD and VPD

3) Allen was investigated as a Zodiac suspect for 23 years

No, it doesn't make him guilty. But that's not the discussion here.
Obviously, no other suspect attracted such attention. If you don't believe Allen was Zodiac, congratulations. However, unless you can name another suspect that law enforcement liked better as Zodiac, doubting Allen's status is absurd.

Did I say the case rested on three things?

30 years and Allen is still being bandied about on a message board. In addition, many who were involved in the case still believe he was the best suspect.

We all have favorite suspects. Allen's still at the top of my list. You haven't offered anything here in this forum that leads me to believe otherwise.

"One of the men had reason to be untruthful," so let's throw out everything about Allen's alledged conversations about being the Zodiac. (BTW, I wasn't refering to Spinnelli, but Arthur's hunting companions.) Let's throw out the fact that one (who was key to the statement about Allen) still maintains Allen told him he wanted to kill people and call himself the Zodiac before the murders even began. He didn't come forward and say, "I made it up because..."

In addition to the three things previously stated here's a list, as time permits:

1.) Allen was hounded by authorities until the day he died.
2.)We don't know everything VPD found in their searches. They've kept quiet about a lot of things. If you do, please share it with us.
3.) Allen's numerous statements call him further into question as a suspect. Not exonerate him.
4.) Allen's Naval background.
5.) His penchant for vilolence.
6.) His collection and carrying of guns.
7.) His handwriting. (Did Sherwood Morrill clear him?)
8.) His physical comparison with Zodiac.
9.) His residence in Vallejo.
10.) His lack of alibis.
11.) Seeking Melvin Belli to represent him.
12.) Statments from his family.

Do these things prove Allen was the Zodiac? No. But they point to him. I'll say it again, Allen is the best suspect in my book. He's at the top of my list. Don't expect me to change my mind when you so obviously have yours made up as well.

You didn't get mypoint. Jewel was cleared fairly quickly, as opposed to Allen, who was not.

More later,
Edward

Edward wrote:
"Other than the zodiac letters, where do the name "Zodiac" and the crossed-circle symbol appear together? Only one place: a Zodiac watch."

This isn't entirely true: as I posted in another thread, the Ford Zodiac's hood ornament was a squared-off crossed-circle. Does this qualify? You make the call -- pictures are posted at the "Photo Album" page of my site, linked below.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

Edward,
You say it well, baby! Allen is still the major domo suspect of the case, despite what Gregorypraxass argues. Tom is right- no other Zodiac suspect 'takes a licking and keeps on ticking' the way that Allen does.
Oscar.
Penn in 2004! Ride the meat torpedo!
p.s. Everyone- please vote tomorrow!!

Sandy:

I thought your favorite suspect was Cane but in your post above you refer to "Jim" and his being 25 years old. Cane would have been in his mid-40's during the Z years. So who is your suspect? Or do you have a short list?

Thanks!

Realtor

Thanx Sandy

I have written in the past that I have 4 suspects , I believe are connected to these crimes. Darlenes first husband is the one I believe was the shooter at L.H.rd also BRS. R.H shot Stine, Kane L.B. My theory is Darlene knew too much, and had to be killed.The others killed where to make it look like a madman was on the loose killing at random.So VPD didn't do the kind of job that would of taken place, if they thought it was a hit. A counterfeit ring was in the Vallejo area in the late 60's. I know for sure, because I knew one of the people who took the fall for everyone else.Think about it, Darlene had more money than a waitress would have at that time.She paid her sister with new 20's.Someone was leaving her small packages the size of money,and they were bendable! She paid cash for her home, at about the same time her ex had his home paid for!! I know I am hard to follow, so please read slower, or read it again ,some of my posts are getting turned around.The man who follows me from time to time is Kane,he just happens to be a Z suspect,and plays Z like games.He is the one I took a picture of.

Sandy wrote,
"She paid cash for her home, at about the same time her ex had his home paid for!!"

Sandy, according to what Dean Ferrin told me in late 1998, he and Dee borrowed about $1500 from Dean's parents for the down payment, and financed the balance at about $98 a month.
Regarding Dee's supposed big money, it was a myth. She owed credit card bills at the time of her death, which Dean had to pay. Her cash came from working several bars in the Vallejo area until all hours.

Sandy, I know you prefer not to identify "R.H.", but could you tell us a little bit about him? And
who is your fourth suspect?

Thanks,
Gomper

Hey, All.

I want to go back to the origin of this thread: Mike Mageau. I don't have a clue what was going on prior to the attack he survived. Don't know why he wore a bunch of layers of clothes or ran out of the house and left the lights on and the door open. But at times posters here have questioned where he is and why he isn't more forthcoming with info/recollections, etc. Maybe his whereabouts are known to Tom and Jake and others, but letting ANYONE know his location is something I would NOT do if I were him. I think Z is still out there, maybe lurking here. That's why I post anonymously...I don't want my name or anything of my persona to even ENTER the mind of such a beast.

Realtor

Realtor,
If what little we know about Zodiac is true,then Mageau, or anyone else for that matter, would have very little to fear. Even the most conservative of estimates would put Zodiac in his early to mid-sixties. However, there is a very good chance that Zodiac, if he has yet to piss on the fire and call the dog home (uh..die), would be in his seventies. What is he gonna' do- run you over with his wheelchair; club you with his cane; strangle you with a Depends? Come on! If Z was still in the 'boogeyman'business, we would have heard from him by now. Don't ya' think? This guy had a pathological need to gloat and make himself feel superior by rubbing his crimes in the faces of the cops and media.
On a related note, I have often wondered if Zodiac started his killing much earlier than Faraday/Jensen. Yeah, yeah, the whole Bates thing is problematic at times (I'm skeptical, to say the least), but I'm pretty sure that he would have played a hand or two before this. Why? If the age of Z has been set with ANY accuracy, then it would be unlikely that he would have started in 1968. He would have been a rare serial killer indeed, for most begin to do their thing in their mid-twenties to early thirties. Some accounts place Z's age much higher.
No biggie, just food for thought.
Oscar.
p.s. Penn and Teller in 2004. You figure out which one is the dummy!

Gee, I think I have to agree with Oscar. I think Zodiac had started killing before '68.

Have we all forgotten the 1963 double murder in Santa Barbara?

Oscar:

As someone on this board recently reminded us (maybe it was you?), truth is stranger than fiction. I believe he was still active in 1996 in Boulder, CO......

Luke: "I'm not afraid!"

Yoda: "You will be. You will be."

Realtor

Ed, What is the double murders of Santa Barbara?

Realtor, Why do you think Zodiac was in Boulder, Colorado in 1996?

Realtor, why would you think Z had anything to do with the Ramsey murder? If nothing else, you've aroused my curiosity.

Oscar, if Z were still alive, you'd be easy prey. Judging by the way you reason, any unsuspecting senior citizen could get a drop on you at any time. You may laugh at the thought, but 70 isn't too old to pull a trigger.

Mhoward:

Thank you for asking!!

You must have not been here back in the summer. I believe that the handwriting on the ransom note left in the Ramsey home by an intruder matches the handwriting of Zodiac. It's 30-ish years later and the ransom note handwriting is shaky, but the formation of the letters is mostly a match to my eye. I'm not a handwriting expert and the regulars on this board gave me a lot of grief for even thinking this, but I'm using my EYES, not my lilmited power of deductive reasoning.

When I try to reason it out, IF Z killed JonBenet Ramsey, he would have been advanced in years when he did so. But taking on a six year old girl with rope and a bash to the right side of her skull would be possible for a man in his 60's or 70's. He'd be too old to take on couples in the prime of their lives, but a child who LOOKED like an adult when she performed in pagents would be a perfect target.

He would have had the opportunity to see her twitch and squirm (Zodiac's raison d'etre) as she died. Z said he would/did kill by rope but we know of no cases when he did. JonBenet's killer wrote a LONG ransom note which makes little or no sense if you isolate the case, because she was probably already dead when he sat down to write it. I think it takes some kind of weird balls to remain in someone else's house to take the time to write a three page note...the same kind of weird balls it took to write on Bryan Hartnell's car door in a public place. He HAD to write!

What makes sense to me in the Ramsey case is to think of it as a Zodiac killing. THEN it becomes clearer why the ransom note was left: Zodiac WANTED to be HEARD so it seems to be that he was compelled to write after his known killings and on other occasions when he hadn't killed anyone, as far as we know. The ransom note carries the same taunting tone, the same type of misspellings, the references to movies, a "cipher" in the signature, the same auditory psycholinguistic opening ("Listen carefully!" as compared to "This is the Zodiac speaking"--both being the auditory sensory mode), about the same length, the same spacing between words, similar margins, similar pressure, similar size, similar choice of writing instrument, and the letter formations are fascinating to study.

Get yourself some print-outs of Z's writings, especially the Mikado Letter, the Seven Page letter and the Little List letter and print out the Ramsey ransom note. Then start looking at the p's and r's and y's and double s's and b's. Go on to the m's, n's and w's. Sail on to words and notice how the i's go down below the baseline and how the h's are uneven in relation to the baseline of words. Study the th combinations. Find where Z wrote "etc.," and compare to the ransom note. Find where Z wrote "killing" and compare to the ransom note. These are dead-on matches. Notice that both writers used exclamation points. Notice that both "taunted" their intended reader. Notice that both writers begin by trying to write straight up but their writing "flops over" to the right as the writer either gets tired or gets in a hurry.

I could go on...but others here don't want to see this and I'll get blasted again. BUT if you have more questions, I'll answer them.

Realtor

PS: You can't do this with a mind already made up!!

Oh, I forgot!

Hurley, thanks to you too for asking!

Realtor

If Graysmith fabricated the car chase to Blue Rock Springs and fabricated Brian Hartnell saying "kill me first because I could not bear to watch her die" I wonder what else he fabricated. Does anyone know what if anything else was fabricated by Graysmith?

Realtor,
thanks for filling me in on your theory. Hopefully, you wont catch too much flack over this. I do see similarities between the handwriting samples, but I could say the same about TK's handwriting.

I do keep an open mind and I'll not ridicule your theory. I have a few theories of my own. The fact is, until a theory is proven to be false, anything is possible. There's one thing about your theory that I question. If it was Z wanting to renew his terror, why didn't he leave his signature? He sure went to an awful lot of trouble to gain national attention, why wouldn't he have taken full advantage of the situation? Has Z become shy?

This thread is about Mageau...

Mhoward:

An excellent question for which I have no ready answer. So I'll theorize...

Not shy. Wicked. Evil.

What comes to mind is that if he identified himself, the "game" would be over...The ransom note was written specifically to try to make it seem that a kidnapping had taken place, performed by a small group of men, one of whom would call Mr. Ramsey between 8 and 10 a.m. to give him instructions on delivering the $118,000 in small bills.

Tragically, everyone on the scene at the Ramsey home that morning at least half way believed it...they sat waiting for the phone to ring but it never did. There had been a search of the home earlier but her body was not found until early afternoon in a remote room in the basement.

Intended or not, the ransom note served many purposes: It bought the killer a lot of time. It cast doubt on the innocence of the parents. It caused more time to be spent trying to match the handwriting to the parents and a huge media hoopla that Zodiac would dearly LOVE. The media has gone so far as to theorize that Mrs. Ramsey killed her daughter because she wet the bed. That scenario, odd as it is, makes me recall what Zodiac wrote...(not a direct quote)...I'll go on killing but I won't tell you about them anymore. I'll make them look like routine robberies, suicides and ACTS OF ANGER...

My open mind says that Zodiac did exactly what he said he'd do, by rope and (possibly) by fire (See Lou Smit's theory that a stun gun was used on JonBenet). None of this would have happened if he had signed it or put his crosshairs on it.

For some reason I think it was his "swan song." I think it's the closing, "Victory!" on the ransom note that makes me think this. He pulled off just one more for old time's sake...and he did it in his "you'll never figure it out in a million years because you are DUMB and I'm too smart for you" mode.

Evidence in the Ramsey home: There's a palm print on the door that matches no one. There's a partial shoe print from maybe Hi-Tech boot. There's DNA under her fingernails that do not belong to any suspect. So you can rule out the parents and begin looking for someone (male per the DNA) who had the urge to kill, the urge to write, the balls to stay in the home after the deed long enough to write (a la Bryan Hartnell's car door), the foresight to bring precut lengths of rope to the house (a la Lake Berryessa), a way to prevent fingerprints from being left while still leaving a palm print (Z: "I cover the tips of my fingers with airplane cement so I don't leave any fingerprints") who taunted Mr. Ramsey in the note, referred to movies, and even ended up with a line similar to the Cheri Jo Bates letter, "It's up to you now, John"... words which also appear IN THE MIKADO for crying out loud, and ended the whole shebang with a puzzle/cipher: "SBTC".

I can go on some more, about Zodiac's possible obsession with holidays, especially Christmas as compared to the fact that JonBenet was killed late Christmas night/early the next morning...About how Zodiac misspelled words in three major ways and the only misspellings in the ransom note match one of Z's most obvious types of misspellings. Shall we discuss radians going through Boulder???

I also think he tried to give a few clues in the ransom note just to see if anyone was paying attention...to see if anyone remembered him...So he couldn't sign the letter. If he had, the most dangerous game would be lost.

I hope he lives long enough for us to know for sure...

Realtor

Tom:

We know this thread is about Mageau. Funny how open, free discussion just sometimes leads in unexpected directions.

Realtor

Realtor,
Since you can't take a hint, I'll be obvious:
It's time to "Start New Conversation."
That means you need to start a new thread if you want to discuss JonBenet. I suggest heading to the "General Zodiac Discussion" topic, or perhaps "Theories." Understand?

Esau wrote:

If Graysmith fabricated the car chase to Blue Rock Springs and fabricated Brian Hartnell saying "kill me first because I could not bear to watch her die" (italics mine) I wonder what else he fabricated. Does anyone know what if anything else was fabricated by Graysmith?

Actually, Graysmith didn't fabricate what I italicized above, suprisingly enough. That came straight out of Astrid Edington's story in The Napa Register, "Ranger Tells Of Going To Aid Of Pair" (9-29-1969, p. 2A). She was quoting Park Ranger Sergeant William White, who got the story from Hartnell and Shepard before the ambulance arrived:

"Then the man said, I'm going to have to stab you people.' Hartnell said, 'Please stab me first. I'm chicken. I couldn't stand to see the girl stabbed.'

"The man told him, 'I'll just do that.'

As for what Graysmith did fabricate, that's another story. Basically, if it doesn't jibe with what appears here or on the other sites, take it with a grain of salt.

Sandy,

I have read your posts with much interest, and in spite of the slough-offs you seem to get from certain other individual(s) (who claim objectivity, but whos actions prove otherwise...), I think your first-hand experiences AT THE TIME ALL OF THIS WAS HAPPENING should be given a lot more attention than it has thus far by the powers that be.

I would be most interested in reading over your full account of events. You are welcome to email me privately at bamonson@pipeline.com

Thanks,

Bruce Monson

I found Mike in 1994, with the help of a show NOW IT CAN BE TOLD, I was with him for many hours, at that time I did not have Darlene's full police report and was just getting heavy in the case. Mike told me that the reason the phone was off the hook was in '69 most of the phone were in the kitchen and hung on the wall, when Darlene drove up he hung the phone up and it fell off the hook, he also said the reason the TV was on, which it seemed like it was blasting, but when the police found his front door open and being in the early morning it seemed louder than it was, for the rest of the neighborhood was quite. It was nothing for people or he said that he and his Dad never locked the door and was expecting to be back shortly and his Dad was due home. And as far as the clothes, the police report was correct, I did not read the report before I found Mike, but he gave me a whole different story. I just wonder when he had the time to put these clothes on, for he was on the phone once with Darlene, who said she needed to talk to him it was very important and couldn't wait. When Darlene drove up to his house he was on the phone, to who? I don't know. I do believe that Mike knows the man who killed Darlene, and it is possible that he does not realize he does. I want to find him so bad. Now that I have the facts and some valuable info, just like I said before if the killer wanted Mike dead he would of been shot. Like David Farady and Paul Stine, first and one shot. What did Darlene see or witness on her journey back to California from New York? Why did she marry Jim? Who was the older man in our living room, who kept changing his appearance? Why was the twins with her? Mike said that meet Darlene in New York and they just happen to be trying to find a way home. Right!!! I have my own answers, after I did live it..but when I give my answers, there is someone who tries to cloud it with other things, so I have given up telling what I know to be of fact, and am now asking the questions. I believe Darlene is the key to this whole entire killings and I believe it goes back as far as when she went to work for the telephone company in SF. Where by the way Richard Gaikowski worked also, also he worked at Allied Cab company. Jim Phillips managed the boarding house she lived in. Kane lived down the street from her. I almost want to say: I THINK THERE WAS THREE PEOPLE INVOLVED! 1) The shooter, 2) The writer 3) the person who did the filming. I also believe that Cecilia Shepard and Bryan Hartnell, stabbing was filmed for a snuff film. Now what I have just said ought to bring up some questions. There is a lot that not even Tom knows yet.

Hi Pam,
A few of the main suspects in this case have been linked to the restaurant where Darlene worked.We also have reference to a guy who supposedly brought her gifts from mexico.Can you throw any light on any of this for us?.

Hi Lapumo, (is that your name?)

The man who brought her a coin purse, some material, a belt, and a skull where she would put a candle in the middle of his head. He sat at section "C" at Terry's, by the window, one other time he liked to sit at the first booth by the door. If I am correct, it was "Andrew Todd Walker" in Graysmith's book. I was in a line up and picked him out as the man who set at "C" station, and the gifts from Mexico. Also the jump suit Darlene was wearing the night she was killed, was the blue flowered material he gave to her, and she had a suit made. Gosh that just came to me. As I was reading the diary.

Pam, was Walker the "Lee" mentioned in the police report? And who do you think the older man who changed his appearance might have been: Walker, Cane, or someone else?

Thanks,
Gomper

The "Lee" from the police report could have been Lee Key, who was an acquaintance of Darlene's.

I swear to God this whole thing gets more David Lynch by the hour...

Anyone else ever notice that there are "Lees" all over the place in this case? I have counted at least five so far, and probably missed others. Even the boy at Berryessa (walking with his father) was named Lee as I recall. Was "Lee" just an exceptionally popular name at that time?

Bruce M.

PAM:
I also believe that Cecilia Shepard and Bryan Hartnell, stabbing was filmed for a snuff film.

BRUCE M:
That is a very interesting comment, Pam! Can you elaborate a bit further on what makes you think this is the case? I can see some points that might favor this, but I'm really wondering about this "cameraman."

Regards,

Bruce M.

Dear Pam,
When I read your post I inadverdantly spit Brisk all over my laptop screen! The comment about your belief that the Berryessa incident may have been filmed for use in a snuff film was a shocker, to say the least!! I also have to ask you what makes you think this is the case? I concur with Bruce (probably for very different reasons)that, on the surface, there would appear to be some points which might favor this kind of conclusion. However, i think I could build a stronger case against this idea. Anyway, I would really like to hear what you have to say about this. Please.
Oscar.

There is absolutely NO evidence that the LB scene was filmed;especially, proof is severely lacking that it was for a snuff film!In this case we DO have a witness and he did not indicate to anyone at anytime there was anyone filming he and Shepherd.Now, all of us would like to know where that story came from. It sure didn't come from Hartnell as he said the man' walked slowly away' from the scene right after he finished stabbing the girl.Dave Peterson did not, from all the evidence he gleaned ,see any evidence there was filming going on. Of course,if proof is forthcoming then I will be the first to search for the film!One would have a better go of it with LH as there was a speck of time to do a little filming-there were no witnesses there to refute a little Z"film time"-we have one at LB and he is very much alive; and I know he would deny such an event took place.!I am going to try and speak to him.

Lets keep in mine that the PD reports have Mageau stating that he saw the shooter from a 'side view' and that it was "dark out" and that there was a 'bright light' in his face!

The "snuff film" angle sounds like it came out of Maury Terry's head.

a snuff film? hmmmmmm maybe some other urban legend might also fit. Perhaps someone might look at lake and ng as the Z.


Michael

I dont think that even if Z were still alive he would not be able to chose victims of his own choseing. He used a gun in all of his known crimes and even if he were in his 70's that would not preclude him from killing. I have talked with BillB and others and i think that the 1963 murders are the work of our boy. Even though it is acknowleged that serial killers start early in life getting caught or dying ect is what stops them. Albert Fish was a rapist, murderer in his old age. Interestingly he was also a letter writer.


Michael

I just read an interesting article about snuff films in the last week or so, and they've been investigated by the FBI for decades, and they've not found one iota of evidence to prove their existence, and it's not for lack of trying. I don't know how many thousands of man-hours have been wasted chasing after these urban legends, but I will actually believe the FBI in this instance (Flight 800 is another story, however...).

What it comes down to is that those who report snuff films invariably have heard about a friend of a friend of a friend who was visiting a friend in East Dog Breath, Nebraska (or wherever), and claimed they saw one. The FBI followed up those leads, and guess what? Urban legend. They always lead nowhere. Someone needs to bring an actual snuff film to light before we can start talking about LB or any other attack possibly being staged for a snuff film.

BTW, there's only one vantage point from which one could film anything where the stabbing took place, and unless Z had some help or a timer to start the camera and a telescopic lens, it couldn't possibly have happened anyway.

Ed N.-Alright;let's snuff the goofy Prozac inspired theory!You always post with wisdom and your history major is always there !

Pam, what exactly happened to Darlene when she was
in Pennsylvania and New York? Is this where all the supposed occult stuff began? Also, did she really go to the Virgin Islands, or is that a detail manufactured by Graysmith?
I realize that people have spoken harshly about your credibility at times, Pam...me included. But obviously, none of us has all the info. I would be
very interested in hearing your account of what happened.

Gomper

Darlene was supposed to have gone to PA for a while and then later moved. In Bruce Davis'July 2000 parole hearing ,he said he worked in Harrisburg,PA ! I only put this together this morning!If Davis went to Harrisburg then he had to have gone through other PA cities.The hearing also produced the fact that Davis had also worked in Lake Tahoe.FYI

Howard:
Interesting stuff as always!

Gomper

No witness account of filming at LB but perhaps someone was hidden in the brush? Just a suggestion. Also, the bright light in Mageau's face, a movie camera? I guess that would take some coordination to film with one hand and shoot people up with the other.

Mike Mageau was pretty young at that time of the shooting. Did he really have all those clothes on and in July? Maybe it's crazy but do you think he thought there was a possiblity of him being shot at so he'd naively protect himself with extra layers of clothing?

In Graysmith's book he describes Darlene as being excited by her belief of something great about to happen to her that would be read in the papers. Did she naively think she would be a part of some "film"?

Okay guys and message people, the reason of the "snuff film", Ken Narlow had a suspect that our family went and meet, when he opeded the door I regonized him as a man that use take pictures of Darlene. As I was there I uncovered that he does films. And I strongly believe he filmed Darlene.
PS Prozac is not my drug of the day

I now have a videotape of what was probably Bobbi Ramos'last interview and has never been shown to anyone. Bobbi was a close friend of Darlene Ferrin. When asked about Michael Mageau's credibility she said you could not believe many of the things he said. Bobbi was told by Darlene the stories Mike had told her and they were certainly untrue and exaggerations.

Also,Ramos was not too pleased with the credibility of a certain member of Darlene's family and stated this in no uncertain terms!She appears to have been a honest person and wanted to be as accurate as she could.More on this later.

This is the other suspects section and my guy is in the line up on this site -so some recent stuff about him.Zodiac, according to analysis, had trouble at home and probably had an abusive father and a passive mother. Davis says that his father's"drunken outbursts were always verbally degrading and sometimes physically violent...his mother's attempts to protect he and his ssiter ...were largly ineffective.I retreated from them feeling rejected ,worthless and angry.Behind a smiling facade, I pacified myself with over-eating(Zod' had a pot and was called "husky' as was Davis by the Times 12/2/70)and sexual fantasy(see the '66 typed letter "I lay awake nights thinking about my next victim...",etc.)He tells of taking drugs and "desiring" them in '65-67 including LSD.Whoever ,as I have always said,wrote the '66 and '67 letters/notes was on drugs ! He was living in Anaheim (30 mins from Riverside) and Riverside at the time.He "dropped out in Nov. 1966[just after the 11/29/'66 letter] and became a transient undergrounder".Davis said that these drugs "whetted his appetite for the bizarre"-like dress up at LB and the torture letter,etc.?It was in the "Fall of '74 in prison God began to deal with me".We know that the Z letters stopped after July 8 of '74 when Davis experienced a 'change in prison'.He wanted 'nothing more to do with drugs and the old life'. An investigator surmised the Zodiac may have "gotten religion" and stopped his activities!Lots more- Nuff said

Davis'aliasis'so they will be out there.Someone may have heard one or more of these names: George McGregor Davis,Jack Paul MC Milliam, Bruce Mc Gregor, Bruce MC Millan.He had fake drivers licenses and IDs. Even as early as when he lived and worked in Lake Tahoe he had "a fake drivers license. "Davis purchased a 9-mm (Davis told the parole Board it looked like a .45-LB?)in July of 1969 under the name Jack Mc Millan along with his gun expert Danny De Carlo -a member of the Straight Satan motorcycle club(he took the name Richard Allen!)purchased a .45-De Carlo was born in Canada and the gun that killed Darlene may have been made in Canada-Browning 1935 High Power (FN GP 35).Today, he owns a gun shop in Oregon. Hey, I should tell him to drop by Toms for coffee!

Howard, if I were a profiler, I would think that the Z had a dominating cruel mother, and a absent father.This would make him hate women.Or he was left at birth by his mother who was unwed. Maybe he was conceived in a car? That's why he looked for lovers in cars. If his mother was a sweet and kind person to him, I would think he would be close to her, and like women a lot.This killer hates women for sure!

Sandy, maybe Zodiac would hate his mother for being weak and allowing the abuse from his father.

If she allowed him to be abused, yes perhaps you are right. My gut feeling is, that it is something more sinister than that.