Did any of the suspects....


Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Other Suspects: Did any of the suspects....

By Anonymous (1cust150.tnt4.rtm1.nl.uu.net - 213.116.102.150) on Friday, August 18, 2000 - 12:20 am:

Did any of the suspects the police have questioned through the years had a firstname called:Robin and a surname that appears to be Irish?

By Tom Voigt (ac91c3ad.ipt.aol.com - 172.145.195.173) on Friday, August 18, 2000 - 10:43 am:

No suspects named Robin that I know of.

By Jake (spider-ti022.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.194.182) on Friday, August 18, 2000 - 12:42 pm:

I think I see where this is going -- Zodiac wore a HOOD, and who was the most famous HOOD? Robin, of course. Am I right?

Don't forget, Foukes described the man leaving Washington & Cherry as appearing to be a Welshman, but I think that's as close as the case got to the Emerald Isle.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Michael (sdn-ar-001payorkp193.dialsprint.net - 158.252.14.105) on Friday, August 18, 2000 - 12:54 pm:

A welshman? I have often wondered how anyone would know that. Maybe he looked like Richard Burton. Any ideas why the welsh id.

Michael

By Tom Voigt (ac981881.ipt.aol.com - 172.152.24.129) on Friday, August 18, 2000 - 02:58 pm:

I have never, ever heard Zodiac being described as looking Welsh. Where did that rumor originate?

By beverso (ac9bcf3c.ipt.aol.com - 172.155.207.60) on Friday, August 18, 2000 - 05:10 pm:

See Jakes site:

Foukes made a statement about his recollection of the incident, recorded in an SFPD memo dated November 12,1969: "The suspect that was observed by Officer Foukes was a WMA 35-45 Yrs about 5' 10", 180-200 lbs. Medium heavy build -- Barrel chested -- Medium complexion -- Light-colored hair possibly greying in rear (May have been lighting that caused this effect.) (Navy or royal blue) Elastic cuffs and waistbandzipped part way up. Brown wool pants pleated type baggy in rear (Rust brown). May have been wearing low cut shoes.

"Subject at no time appeared to be in a hurry walking with a shuffling lope, Slightly bent foreward head now. The subject's general appearance to classify him as a group would be that he might be of Welsh ancestry."

By Jake (spider-wl031.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.199.31) on Friday, August 18, 2000 - 05:28 pm:

Michael asked:
"Any ideas why the welsh id."

I think it was because he was painted blue and wearing a kilt. Did Allen own a kilt, Tom?

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Cynthia (pm4-29.noln.com - 207.40.228.156) on Friday, August 18, 2000 - 07:49 pm:

I once played around with the words left behind by Darlene Ferrin and thought maybe connecting the missing parts of the partial words (what I assumed the words stood for) turned up the name Ruben. But the "solution" was so convoluted I doubt it would be valid. Just wondering where the poster got the name Robin from?

By Ed N. (spider-wc054.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.193.44) on Friday, August 18, 2000 - 10:28 pm:

Catherine Zeta-Jones is Welsh, is she not? She sure looked like she could have been Spanish/Hispanic, just like her character in "The Mask of Zorro." Hmm... does Foukes' statement imply that Z was not a white male, but rather a Latino??? And if he didn't mean that, why pick on Welsh?

By Tom Voigt (ac8a01a0.ipt.aol.com - 172.138.1.160) on Friday, August 18, 2000 - 11:31 pm:

Hmmm...according to my Oxford Essential Dictionary, one of the definitions of Welsh is:
"a dish of melted cheese, etc., on toast."
Maybe Foukes was hungry at the time?

Seriously, this entire SFPD/Foukes/Composite saga is so riddled with confusion I can't generate much interest in the "Welsh" comment. Besides, having heard Foukes speak, I don't have much trust in his vocabulary.

By Kevin M (cx206582-c.mesa1.az.home.com - 24.21.120.22) on Saturday, August 19, 2000 - 02:39 am:

I do find his age description interesting, in that the suspect, being 35-45, is "older" that what others were saying.

By Anonymous (slip166-72-176-102.al.us.prserv.net - 166.72.176.102) on Monday, August 21, 2000 - 01:34 am:

Possible Welsh ancestry...It's true that some Welsh people have fairly dark skin(like Ed said, Catherine Zeta-Jones does...John Cale of the Velvet Underground, too). I don't know if he spent a lot of time in the sun or what, but Arthur
Allen's skin was pretty dark in that news footage(but of course he had very little hair even in 1969...Could this have been Allen wearing a wig?).

By Anonymous (dc2-isdn2060.dial.xs4all.nl - 194.109.156.12) on Monday, August 21, 2000 - 06:41 am:

About me asking for the name Robin, let me explain myself.
I found a guy's name:Robin, with his lastname like Irish in the 13-character cipher.
Look at the paperclipping with the Badlands-movie and the Exorcist-movie on it.
Those two movie-advertisements are connected by a movie called supercops.
Staring in it are: Batman and ROBIN.
This guy's lastname is also the lastname of one of the writers of the Batman-comic in the 70's.
Bye! P.S. Thanks Jake for your hood-remark!

By Nick Dickles (snfca010-1023.splitrock.net - 63.253.4.7) on Monday, August 21, 2000 - 08:00 pm:

Tom , as someone of Welsh decent , I can tell you cheese on toast is Welsh rarebit . There was a previous "Welsh" thread where I posted that I believe the reference is a police profiling tool related to body type and ethnicity . I doubt it has any value whatsoever in this case . It's just something that's pulled out of a book . Also , I don't believe that was Foukes saying that -rather it was someone analyzing his statement . This would go in line with what I'm speculating here .

By Anonymous (rno-dsl0b-207.gbis.net - 216.82.145.207) on Monday, August 21, 2000 - 11:02 pm:

were the SF Police Officers that stopped zodiac after the cab driver killing ever shown Allens photographs. I can't imagine they weren't but never heard one way or the other. I had to post anonymously because the password thing wouldn't work kingtiger@gbis.com

By Anonymous (204.128.192.52) on Tuesday, August 22, 2000 - 10:00 am:

Here's what I would like to see on this board: a on-line debate or chat regarding each of the suspects. The strongest proponent of each suspect would be invited to debate the relative merits of each of the suspects and the others would be allowed to refute any theories or evidence proposed.

This would provide an excellent summary of the case and allow posters to understand why some of the experts have focused in on one particular suspect while dismissing others.

By kthulhu (ch8smc.bellglobal.com - 206.47.244.58) on Friday, August 25, 2000 - 07:09 pm:

Ok my opinion is that the letter where he said that his name is spelled in the 13 character phrase would ppoint the finger to Lawrance Kane simply because if you read it backwords you can tell that 1 letter is missing form each side adding the same letter to each side would give you kane(left side) and name(right side) now the 3 "8" symbols in a circle add up to 24 now Lawrance kane was born in 1924
and somwone mentioned something about a 13 letter irish last name (actors name form batman) now i mean the name phrase also has 13 chr.

~kthulhu~

kthulhu001@hotmail.com

By Ed N. (spider-wn011.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.197.151) on Friday, August 25, 2000 - 10:02 pm:

That's no way to solve a cipher. Just make up the solution as you go along so that it fits whoever you want it to fit...

By sandy (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Saturday, August 26, 2000 - 12:20 am:

Kane is only one of the names he used.That was his mothers last name. She was English,his father Jewish. He used two birth years 24 and 28. The 8s could be the 8th letter (H). There are also three 1's (A), this could spell HA,HA,HA? The best clue for the name Kane, is on page 144. Graysmith himself got that one!

By Anonymous (rno-dsl0b-207.gbis.net - 216.82.145.207) on Saturday, August 26, 2000 - 01:50 pm:

all cyphers can be broken. There are inherent patterns in all languages. Look what the Americans and British did in world war 2

By Howard (dialup-63.210.123.120.losangeles1.level3.net - 63.210.123.120) on Monday, August 28, 2000 - 11:49 pm:

Kthulu- the circled 8s are not 8s at all,but the sign for Taurus.Look at a good copy of the 13 character missive-the tops of the 8s are NOT connected. Most of the Z researchers do not know a thing about astrology-in this case they should-he called himself the ZODIAC;killed on new/full moons;sent astro forecast page(for Cancer /July 4 187 ?)with Novembers day to day forecasts-Manson born in Nov.) from a popular astrology magazine to another important paper the Sac. Bee.I had a professional astrologer draw up my suspects , Bruce Davis'chart, starting in 1966 and at every suspected Z kill there is an "aspect"that astrologically/historically shows a tendency(Bundy,and others that have killed have shown this aspect)to promote violence/murder. The astrologer picked the same dates as Z kills that matched Davis' chart and he knew little if anything about the Z murder dates/case! I'm not promoting the use of astrology- NO,only the concept; that if Davis was into astrology,both he and Manson were,then he could have followed what his "transits" showed. This aspect/transit leaves his chart at the end of 1970 when Davis was arrested in so. Ca. ("there are a hell of a lot more[victims]down there "[so. Ca.] Z )12/2/70 for Manson related murders.He is a chief suspect in several 187s.Going back to the 'circled 8s', Manson had Taurus rising and Taurus was his opposite sign-very important in astrology. The 13 symbols can depict CHARLES MANSON. Please note that the last 3 letters are nam -man spelled backwards.The symbol for Aries is upside down/opposite for Aries is Libra Davis' sign.Incidently ,I knew when I first looked at a list of Z letter dates I would find at least one 'letter' with Davis' birth date, and there was a card sent Oct.5,1970-Oct 5 was it!With Manson ,when you agreed with someone ,you were "one" with that person. The symbols can also be 'my name is kaen 'refering to Herb Caen(kaen) the columist Z made mention of in his last cipher of 69'.He says "Herb Caen: I give them hell too.Blast these lies."He agrees with Caens ,at times, critical column regarding the SFPD.Caen wrote to me just before his death and said he could never figure out why Zodiac even mentioned him in his letters. I think I have provided one theory.

By Glen Claston (dialup-209.244.92.196.dallas1.level3.net - 209.244.92.196) on Tuesday, August 29, 2000 - 11:03 pm:

Howard,

You are clearly one of the few Robert Graysmith believers! I once said that Graysmith's publication of his "solution" to the 340-character cipher was a very big reason others haven't tried their hand at solving it, and to hear someone factually quote his decipherment after 14 years goes directly to my point.

Just for the record - Graysmith's decipherment is NOT VALID in any sense, and that includes any reference made to HERB CAEN. It also wouldn't hurt to diagram Graysmith's lunar correlations and see just how accurate his claims are.

By Ed N. (spider-tf034.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.197.189) on Tuesday, August 29, 2000 - 11:12 pm:

That won't be difficult, Glen. I know just what book to look in, but it's about 30 miles from here at the moment, on the way to Santa Rosa. I still have lots of leads to follow up, and not enough time...

By Edward (adsl-63-204-72-50.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net - 63.204.72.50) on Tuesday, August 29, 2000 - 11:18 pm:

Anyone wishing to check out the phases of the moon for the dates of the murders may do so at:

http://www.ameritech.net/users/paulcarlisle/MoonCalendar.html

By Ed N. (spider-tf034.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.197.189) on Tuesday, August 29, 2000 - 11:46 pm:

Hey... this is even better than driving many miles to the library during business hours to check it out!

By Glen Claston (dialup-209.245.233.61.dallas1.level3.net - 209.245.233.61) on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 12:53 am:

I hope Jake is checking these, because I'm certainly not going to bother!

Zodiac,Robert Graysmith, pp. 244-248:
October 11, 1969, Paul Stine murder -full moon.

September 27, 1969, murder - two days before full moon.

July 5, 1969, murder - 5 days after full moon.

December 20, 1968 - murder - new moon + 1 day.

Cheri Jo Bates - murder - slain on full moon + 1 day.

The murders don't correlate to any concrete lunar pattern, and despite Graysmith's attempts to fill in with equinoxes, solstices, etc., there is no lunar coincidence that demonstrates anything other than possibly a desire to have some celestial light shed on the subject of murder. A better question would be what the weather forecast was for those days. Cloud cover reflects a lot of light from a big city, so Z could have easily looked outside and decided that there was enough light to navigate in darkened surroundings. Were the weekends he didn't kill clear, cold, and dark?

This how far Graysmith actually goes to draw on coincidence - "Faraday and Jensen were killed at the time of the ancient Roman festival of Saturnalia (December 17-23), when children were sacrificed to the gods." He goes on to make a far more salient point, then misses it by miles in his conclusion: "Each of the victims was slain on Saturday (except for Faraday and Jensen, who were shot minutes before Saturday). When Saturn was in ascendancy, perhaps Zodiac felt he was caught in the power of the ancient god."

It occurred to me to check, and when I found out that astrologically speaking, Saturn had a prominent position in astrological calculations for just about every day of the months involved, the focus on Saturn fell apart. Digging for ancient festivals and other occurrences to fit a theory is relatively easy when there is a history of multiple occurrences for every day of the year in astrological lore! The information that these killings all happened on weekends, predominantly Saturday, is a very useful piece of information mentioned and passed over in his zeal to prove the Zodiac connection.

(Am I starting to sound negative to anyone? I seriously worry about my attitude and I'll try to correct it.)

By Glen Claston (dialup-209.245.233.61.dallas1.level3.net - 209.245.233.61) on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 12:57 am:

Edward,

Nice link to moon phases. I've already bookmarked it!

By Tom Voigt (ac8614ab.ipt.aol.com - 172.134.20.171) on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 01:32 am:

Sadly, I think the only part of ZODIAC Graysmith got right was his name.
Is he indifferent to the facts? We shall find out with ZODIAC UNMASKED.
All I know is it's due out this year...

By Jake (Jake) (spider-mtc-tc064.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.105.179) on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 02:14 pm:

Glen wrote:
"The information that these killings all happened on weekends, predominantly Saturday, is a very useful piece of information mentioned and passed over in his zeal to prove the Zodiac connection."

I too have always felt that the "astrological connection" was a lot less important than the "weekend connection." Penn (groan...) has a cute table in his book charting astrological events first against Z incidents, and then against plane crashes: the plane crashes matched up closer.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Ed N. (spider-tn063.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.207.73) on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 06:26 pm:

I recall reading an old story, probably by Dave Peterson, who mentioned something about the moon being in Taurus during each of the known Z attacks. That might be the only astrological anything that can be linked to Z besides his name. I'll look for that story...

By Bruce D. (pm3-01-24.sle.du.teleport.com - 216.26.16.88) on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 06:50 pm:

That would fit in with the three Taurus signs in the Kane my name cipher.
Bruce D.

By Ed N. (spider-tf022.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.197.182) on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 07:31 pm:

Exactly, although I prefer to refer to it as the "my name is" cipher, since deriving "Kane" from it is pretty much arbitrary. However, a cursory check of my files hasn't turned up that story yet, so don't quote me on that... yet!

By Chrissy Shaw (dial-98.farmtel.net - 209.207.16.98) on Monday, September 04, 2000 - 09:35 pm:

Now back to this Welsh business: Where was pop artist Tom Jones that night?

By geometer (192.149.1.86) on Tuesday, September 05, 2000 - 06:45 am:

it's not unusual to go out at any time.
but when i see you out and about, it's such a crime....

[sorry, couldn't resist]

By Howard (dialup-63.208.239.104.losangeles.level3.net - 63.208.239.104) on Wednesday, September 06, 2000 - 12:41 am:

Jake was right about the report concerning Foulks. The Welsh comment is acceptable in that it expresses an ethnic identification that is not always used in this country. The Webster'Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary on page 1012 says "Welsh...foreigner, of Celtic origin...a Celtic people of southeastern Gaul...page 134, ...Celt a member of a division of the early Indo- European peoples distributed from the /British Isles and Spain to Asia Minor ... a modern Gael, Highland Scot, Irishman, Welshman,Cornishman or Breton (native of Brittany).Foulks used an expression that simply said that the "man he saw "looked like an Indo-European or Scotsman, Englishman ,Irishman(like my suspect- sorry had to stick it in!),Cornish(from England), etc.All this is in contrast to an African American, Asian American,etc.in 'appearance'. We don't use that expression that often, but its used more in Europe.Of interest, the man in the parked car that spoke to Christopher Edwards (Zodiac pg.142)indicated he was a British engineer-not that he was,but that he said he was British.Certain expressions that Z used in his communications are of British origin. The military style Timex Cheri Jo had torn from her attackers wrist was probably from a PX in Britain. My suspect was infatuated with all things English and had travelled to Britain at least 2-3 times. Our State Dept. did a report on Davis as they knew that he travelled to England and that he was connected to a 187 in a London hotel 12/2/69; he came back to the US right after this crime.The young man had been slashed and "strange writings "were on a mirror in the room .The death appeared to be a suicide, but the body said otherwise. The LAPD detectives believed it was a "staged" suicide. One thinks of Zs remarks about these kinds of murders(see Nov. 9th 69' Z letter).

By Oscar (dialup-63.210.125.138.losangeles1.level3.net - 63.210.125.138) on Wednesday, September 27, 2000 - 11:03 pm:

Ah-Hah! Let us, my gaggle of super slueths, re-visit the "Welsh Theory"for a brief moment. Has it escaped everyone's notice that Stonehenge, THE Celctic monument that everyone knows and loves, is thought by most learned scholars to be a primitive solar map? Hence, the Welsh were among the first peoples to get into this whole zodiac business. Imagine the possibilities!Synergy...indeed.
By the way, Welshmen do not wear kilts. Kilts are worn by our haggis-lovin' cousins from the Highlands.

By Dingo9 (squid1w.kdt.de - 195.8.224.38) on Thursday, September 28, 2000 - 09:42 am:

Kilts are worn by our haggis-lovin' cousins from the Highlands.

EXCELLENT !

By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p79.as2.dungarvan1.eircom.net - 159.134.234.79) on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 03:13 am:

Does anybody know if any of the suspects were born in 1937? Thanks.

By Jake Wark (Jake) (spider-wg061.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.196.46) on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 02:14 pm:

Yeah -- Ed N.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-tc074.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.17.54) on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 03:10 pm:

Jake... I thought it was you! LOL Besides, if I'm an octogenarian like Oscar thinks, I'd've been born between 1910-20... 1937 would be a little too late...

By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p183.as1.virginia1.eircom.net - 159.134.234.183) on Friday, December 15, 2000 - 08:35 am:

I walked into that one,didn't I.
I had been looking at the Exorcist Letter,and remembered someone raising the point about why Zodiac referred to it at "the best satirical comedy" he had ever seen",and if something by way of a clue could drawn from this.I think also Eduard,got the name O Neill from this.I recently seen a documentary on Manson,who apparently spent some time in a "McNeill prison. Not that I am putting him forward as a suspect,but I thought the association was interesting.In the Exorcist we had Demons inside Regan McNeill--we had murders etc in Mcneill prison maybe one of our suspects spent time in that prison! Just a thought.
We also have the first letter from Zodiac in a number of years and probably his last,he gives us that symbol at the bottom of the page.We know he liked to write on anniversary's. Instead of his customary Zodiac sign with the "Score",he gives a straightforward ME-37 SFPD-O.Since he most likely pulled this figure from somewhere,I was thinking it may have been his age!,at that point.So 37 in 1974 put,s his birth year at 1937.Mabye 1-29-37.
Just a thought.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Monday, December 25, 2000 - 08:09 pm:

I am sure glad others think along the same lines as I do. I also thought that he used 3 for the letter C and 7 for G. But for sure 37 meant something! In a note left for me by one of the suspects, the clue was: in his 40s now! The note was left for me in 87 or 88. I wasn't sure if he was referring to 1969 when he wrote of Darlene's DOA, (the clew was just after that sentence). After that, was his logo! He looks to be in his mid 60s now, even though I am told he is much older.

By Bryan (Bryan) (144.141.27.172) on Monday, January 22, 2001 - 01:55 pm:

If the Zodiac started writing again, that would shut down a few supects, but I would hope that aleast a piece of Paul Stiens shirts would be included. So tell me who would be the number 1 Suspect if that happen today?
Bryan

By The Giant (Bryan) (144.141.27.172) on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 03:29 pm:

Does anyone know any suspect that may have been involed in a Masonic Lodge
Bryan

By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-tn082.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.207.82) on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 10:12 pm:

Not offhand, but I read somewhere that wannabe Z-investigator Harry Martin is a 32nd degree Mason.

By Howard (Howard) (dialup-63.209.89.177.losangeles1.level3.net - 63.209.89.177) on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 02:45 am:

The Giant-According to author Ed Sanders, Manson studied "magic,warlockry,hypnotism,astral projection,MASONIC LORE,scientology,ego games,subliminal motivation,music and perhaps Rosicrucianism.(see my posts on the Tahoe gravesite? of Donna Lass)..One Marvin White...made arrangements to mail Charlie books on black magic and related subjects."I was told Mnd read that Manson gave "some of the signs of Masonry"from time to time and was "familiar" with it's practice.M was extremely familiar with the occult. Sanders forgot to mention Ms intense interest in astrology.Bugliosi does. I spoke with Ms old guard at San Quentin and he told me Manson was into the 'full range the occult'. Manson even wanted to "do a astrology chart" on the guard,but he would not give his B-day to him! Manson would predict a death in the yard and would say it was a full moon and that is why it happened. M was into "codes" and knew Morse code by heart. M had a circle and cross "on the backside of his wrist"-but I will have to look at my notes to see if it was on his left or right wrist. The same 'symbol was on his wall in marker pen or some kind of a pen'. M got mail "from Vallejo and Benicia where Charlie had friends"(of course he got mail from all over, including Napa as he had some followers living there or in Yountville.So you can see he went far beyond Masonry teachings!My book gives an encounter with an occultist had with Manson in Sept. of 67' in Manhattan Beach,Ca.Manson lived there for a while.He told me that M was very familiar with just about every aspect of the occult. www.zodiacmurders.com

By The Giant (Bryan) (144.141.27.172) on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 12:25 pm:

EdN,
Thanks I'm also a 32nd degree. The reason I asked is one of the letters to the editor that wasn't signed "the Zodiac" but as a concerned reader, had some wording "whence he came." Could be the Zodiac had some UK or Masonic back ground.

Howard,
Whaaat? you confuse me.
Bryan

By Chrissy (Chrissy) (dial-71.farmtel.net - 209.207.16.71) on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 05:27 pm:

Dear Board:

It was probably a question meant to suggest a way of discription, such as:"Did the individual you saw show any signs of a certain ethnic origin?" If one were to answer:"Italian." A good next question would be: "Why do you say that?" Since we don't have a word for word transcript, it seems outright unwise to project speculations along a line whose origins are highly suspect initially.

Stine is Germanic in spelling, Stein and Stien are variations usually Jewish in origin. If the questioning happened before the z letter with Mr. Stine's shirt arrived, the person asking the questions may have been trying to determine if the attack was anti-semetic. Questioning ethnic origins may be no more than this in that case. One really is reaching to jump off without knowing the basis of the question.

Chrissy Shaw

By Howard (Howard) (dialup-63.209.87.161.losangeles1.level3.net - 63.209.87.161) on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 04:30 pm:

The Giant-I simply said that Manson had a knowledge of Masonic lore and an intense interest
in all things Irish /English/Beatles. Bruce Davis ,his partner, also had the same interests.Note UK words/expressions:"boughten","clews","kiddies","rather","Happy Christmas,""as one might say","Blue Meannies"/Beatles song.

By Howard (Howard) (dialup-63.209.87.161.losangeles1.level3.net - 63.209.87.161) on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 05:10 pm:

Laupuno-FYI,Manson was 37 when he was convicted in 71'.M said that his people were responsible for 35 murders.The man who told Christopher Edwards he was a BRITISH(UK again!)engineer, went on and on about all the murders in S.F. at that time 4/19/70 (Z sent a missive 4/20/70!)and the total was the same as Manson's-35!Incidentally, as crazy as it sounds ,M would go on and on about how the cities-like S.F. ,were 'corrupt' ,as they were filled with crime and murder!

By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p93.as2.dungarvan1.eircom.net - 159.134.234.93) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 04:19 pm:

Was a Vietnam connection ever discussed in this case?

By Oscar (Oscar) (pool1144.cvx26-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net - 209.179.154.124) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 07:37 pm:

Lapumo,
Yes, it was. A current theory expounded by Maury Terry has Zodiac being a VC 'tunnel rat'- hence the inability of the police to locate tthe sucker. Gives a whole new dimension to the concept of going underground!
Chuckles and mirth,
Oscar

By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p69.as2.dungarvan1.eircom.net - 159.134.234.69) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 01:34 pm:

Thank you Oscar.Seriously,I wondered if it was ever considered possible that Zodiac had been in Vietnam,he was somewhere for 3 years,why not there?.It is interesting that "Van Nuys" thinks that that somewhere was not in a Californian institution.Could explain some things!
PS I'll have another go here.Did anyone ever hear the name Andrew Allard associated with this case???

By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (ac920888.ipt.aol.com - 172.146.8.136) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 02:22 pm:

You guys are getting off topic.

By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p88.as2.dungarvan1.eircom.net - 159.134.234.88) on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 06:42 am:

Tom,
The title of this section is "DID ANY OF THE SUSPECTS...".With respect, how are we "off topic".
Furthermore the first post in this thread by anonymous,asks if the name Robin was associated with this case and he was replied to by YOU.

By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (ac914ef2.ipt.aol.com - 172.145.78.242) on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 12:07 pm:

The first question in this thread was about suspects named Robin, and I answered. Now you want to talk about Vietnam? Why not just start a new thread?

By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p4.as1.dungarvan1.eircom.net - 159.134.234.4) on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 12:56 am:

Did any of the suspects in this case have the surname ALLARD ? Possible first name ANDREW?

By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-53.linkline.com - 64.30.217.53) on Saturday, April 14, 2001 - 01:51 am:

A suspect that was not given any attention except by Bob Webster a former Riverside reporter that wrote an excellent Sunday supplement article for the Press Enterprise in 1981 should be mentioned. After Webster's article was published a man wrote him telling of a suspect that he felt should be investigated.

This man states that his companion, at the time of this '81 letter,went to RCC when Cheri Jo Bates attended.He says that she related to him that during the time she was attending RCC she was accosted in a parking lot in La Sierra(near Riverside on La Sierra BL.)by a man that was shorter than her(she was 5'8")wore thick lens glasses and was of medium build. This man was saying that a 'girl had done him wrong and that he would never let a girl do this to him again,'and similar words to this effect several times. This man ,who seemed deranged(on drugs?)shoved the woman several times very hard ,but she was able to get away!

She indicated he was a custodian and that she was certain she saw him several times at RCC and that she said he was a loner and never really talked to anyone.His name was "Bruce" but she did not know his last name.

The man that wrote the letter died in 1996, so I am in the process attempting to locate this woman.

I have speculated-one of many- that the desk poem writer may have had access to the storage room(or in a room-the desk was upside down;a custodian would be more likely than a student or teacher to turn a desk over if for no other reason than to wax the floors, etc.!) at RCC and inscribed the poem while the desk was in an upside down position.

Now,we have a custodian that was seen at RCC several times that was physically abusive ,acting erratically,giving as his reason a girl had "done him wrong".

What interest this holds for me is that my suspect's name was Bruce, he was "taking drugs" at this time('66), had 'problems with women'(according to people who knew him)lived in Riverside and that area(La Sierra?),did "odd jobs", was "angry and depressed" at this time by his own admission.The La Sierra Christian Center's parking lot(parking lot again!) on La Sierra BL.was where the incident took place.

If he was a custodian there it is unknown.There is no church by that name there now-of course,it could have changed names.

Of course, we all know that Zodiac wore horn rim glasses and was described as short and about 5'8", not far afield to what this woman gave as to a description.The "medium build" she describes does not seem to fit, but could be explained if he had lost weight due to drug use.

I have asked former drug users about this,and they say that they, and others they had known,could and did lose weight rapidly by taking speed and other drugs.Of course, we are possibly dealing with a young Zodiac and the weight gain did not come until later.Even my suspect mentions that his weight would fluctuate due to drugs and food binges(a Times reporter in '70 says "Davis, short, but husky..." We don't know if his disguise consisted of padding as the anti detection books advocated in the 60's.

This story may help someone with their suspect and a search could be made in La Sierra records,RCC, etc.

I know that RCC, like other schools, had part time custodians and since Bates worked as a part time clerk at RCC (according to the papers and her death certificate),then maybe this is where he first spotted her.I am thankful to the former reporter for sending me the letter- and Tom ,as he told him about me.All FYI to be sure.

By Bob Webster (Bob_Webster) (spider-mtc-tf031.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.103.31) on Friday, April 20, 2001 - 07:04 pm:

Howard: Thanks for your kind words. Just to set the record straight, Cheri worked part-time at Riverside National Bank. I'm not aware that she worked at RCC. Her death certificate is confusing. It shows under employment "student" and "part-time typist" and under location: "Riverside City College" and "Riverside National Bank." From what I know she was a fulltime student and worked part-time at the bank.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-52.linkline.com - 64.30.217.52) on Saturday, April 21, 2001 - 01:42 am:

Bob Webster was a top rate police reporter for the Riverside Press Enterprise -so I hope we all take advantage of his background and experience. It is great the Board is attracting researchers of his stature.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (ac8a5c2b.ipt.aol.com - 172.138.92.43) on Saturday, April 21, 2001 - 02:08 am:

I agree, Howard. The addition of Bob alters the kook-to-normal ratio in favor of the normals.