Lawrence Kane, part II


Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Other Suspects: Lawrence Kane, part II

By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-td044.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.17.169) on Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 04:32 pm:

Here's the new thread...

By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (ac832ecd.ipt.aol.com - 172.131.46.205) on Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 04:49 pm:

Thanks!
I think I'll kick it off by saying I am still waiting for Sandy to post an explanation of her Kane/Cane/RH/Martinez story.

By Hurley (Hurley) (spider-mtc-tb071.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.104.51) on Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 05:23 pm:

I would like to know what, if anything Sandy knows about an Allen/ Kane connection.

I am very interested in Kane's thoughts and knowledge on the suspects and victims of this case.

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wl011.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.199.21) on Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 05:27 pm:

Did Blatty's TWINKLE, TWINKLE, KILLER KANE come out before or after the publication of THE EXORCIST? I'm pretty sure it was reissued after the movie came out.

Just wondering. Kane is a new one on me, and the old Z gears are spinning again.

By Hurley (Hurley) (spider-mtc-tb034.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.104.34) on Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 05:52 pm:

Alanc, I don't know about anyone else but what I'd like to see is loads of details on every victim and suspect in this case and particularly about Vallejo during those times. What was it like to live in Vallejo during the late sixties? What was "going on" there then? Was there an "underground"? Who was part of it? Hate to sound so "sixties" but what was the "scene" then? I'm sure someone out there knows something. I feel that's what's missing.

By Jake Wark (Jake) (spider-tr073.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.201.208) on Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 08:16 pm:

Hurley wrote:
"What was "going on" there then? Was there an "underground"?"

Hippie!

"I'm sure someone out there knows something. I feel that's what's missing."

I don't know what was going on in the '60s, but a Reliable Source told me that one Vallejo household in eight is home to a sex offender. One in eight! That isn't an underground, that's a political party.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Edward (Edward) (adsl-63-205-198-24.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net - 63.205.198.24) on Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 08:37 pm:

Alan,

Welcome. Twinkle, Twinkle, Killer Kane was first published in 1966. The Exorcist followed in 1971.

By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (csd140.bvi3.cos.pcisys.net - 207.204.7.140) on Friday, January 05, 2001 - 08:54 am:

"TWINKLE, TWINKLE, KILLER KANE"?

Now THAT is an interesting title I had not heard before! The fact that "Z" had cited "The Exorcist" (also by Blatty) very interesting indeed. Has anyone read this Twinkle, Twinkle story?

Bruce M

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wn084.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.197.189) on Friday, January 05, 2001 - 09:36 am:

I haven't read the book, but it was made into a forgettable movie called THE NINTH CONFIGURATION. I think Stacy Keach was in it. I saw it once, on video, and promptly forgot it.

It put Blatty off Hollywood for a while.

By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (csd140.bvi3.cos.pcisys.net - 207.204.7.140) on Friday, January 05, 2001 - 09:52 am:

ALANC:
Bruce, you seem to have a real talent for the contrarian position.

BRUCE:
Hmmm, I hope you meant that in a positive (helpful) manner...

ALANC:
Can you present a list of reasons that can be sourced on this board that might suggest the involvement of more than one person in the perpetration of these crimes? I'm just getting back into this case, casually, and I'm also pretty busy with something else right now.

BRUCE:
Here's a few good reasons off the top of my head:

(1) None of the *primary* suspects match any of the latent prints that have been gathered, either from the Stine murder or, obviously, the letters sent by "Z". But not only that, these prints DO belong to someone! Who? Or better, how many people?

(2) Conflicting descriptions of "Z" at "Z" crime scenes, e.g., height, weight, age, hair color, hair style, etc.

(3) Different M.O.'s with different weapons.

(4) The *favorite* suspect (among police agencies), ALA, shows a lot of circumstantial evidence, but not a shred of physical evidence has ever placed him at any known "Z" crime scene or attached him to any known Zodiac literature. This is of significantly higher importance than I think many are willing to admit! The hardest thing for investigators in serial killer cases to do is to actually identify a primary suspect, but once they do find them the forensic confirmations will usually follow rather quickly. Granted, forensic science has come a long way in the last thirty years, but not that far, and considering the sheer volume of evidence we have from the "Z" crimes/letters, et.al., it is inconceivable that any one person, once identified, WOULD NOT be able to be linked to one or more of those pieces of evidence. We simply don't have the volume of material on the *other* suspects (whether identified publicly or not) that we do on Allen, and yet after 30 years of focus on him no one has been able to link him to ANY of these crimes. I find that remarkably remarkable. If Allen was involved at all (and all things considered, I think that's a big "if"), he most likely wasn't working alone.

Hope that this helps,

Bruce M.

By Gomper (Gomper) (slip-32-103-46-165.al.us.prserv.net - 32.103.46.165) on Friday, January 05, 2001 - 11:31 am:

Just weighing in on Realtor's "Mark of Cain" post
in LAWRENCE KANE, part 1:
I thought it was an interesting bit of info, too. And to Bruce: C'mon, man, ease up. Realtor wasn't writing a thesis; he was just contributing something he read to the discussion. If you think you didn't sound like you were raking him over the coals...WRONG. You did.
And yeah, I think Zodiac was more than one person, too. Sandy, please tell us what you know.

By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (csd140.bvi3.cos.pcisys.net - 207.204.7.140) on Friday, January 05, 2001 - 12:19 pm:

Gomper,

I disagree that I was "raking REALTOR over the coals" on his post. I reread my original response to his information and I *still* don't see where I was out of line in what I posted--unless you are counting capital letters (to emphasize a point) as antagonistic (btw, how do you guys get the italics and colored text stuff to work on this?). I didn't call him names or demean his character, all I did was challenge the "Cain=crossed-circle symbol" evidence he presented with evidence to the contrary.

Other than the admittedly off-topic discussion ED N. and I had over my use of the name El-Shaddai a while back (which we have politely resolved, btw), the only person I have "raked over the coals" for his views and presentation is Voigt (and I stand by the evidence on those points), but even then I have praised Voigt for the good work he has done as well.

Also, I already apologized to REALTOR for any "perceived" antagonism he drew from the directness in my response--assuredly, none was intended.

Regards,

Bruce M.

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-tp041.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.204.191) on Friday, January 05, 2001 - 01:07 pm:

Good points on the multi-perp issue up there, Bruce. I wish Sandy would give us more on the Kane idea.

The only issue I have with Realtor's Merovingian idea is that the whole Priory Of Sion/Merovingian occult scenario doesn't appear on the scene until the late 70s. Unless one of our perps was hanging around Rennes-le-Chateau, I find it highly unlikely that he/they could have known about it.

Howard might have some fun with it, because if anybody on the suspect list would have known about it, it would have been Bruce Davis with his Process connections. The Process had/has a deep abiding interest in the Cathars, and may well have had a familiarity with the Merovingian bloodline idea well before the publication of HOLY BLOOD, HOLY GRAIL. But with all due respect to Howard, I really can't see Davis as Zodiac. The Manson gang violence was primarily drug-related, all that hoodoo hooha that came to be associated with them was nonsense.

The jury is out on the Process Church, though. And they were in Nassau scouting for new digs at the same time Dar Ferrin was reported to have been there.

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-tp041.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.204.191) on Friday, January 05, 2001 - 01:13 pm:

It just occurred to me that there were rumors of a Process splinter group or schism running around California in the 70s calling itself "4Pi", Pi as in the number. I wonder if that has any bearing here. I'm not much of a math guy. I know Penn is obssessed with Pi in his theory.

Maybe one of you can fit this into something.

By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (csd140.bvi3.cos.pcisys.net - 207.204.7.140) on Friday, January 05, 2001 - 02:54 pm:

I'm taking it upon myself to work with Sandy in getting all of her information into a systematic format, but it may take a while.

Bruce M.

By Esau (Esau) (cc129455-a.rcrdva1.ca.home.com - 24.176.178.187) on Friday, January 05, 2001 - 07:16 pm:

Good observation Bruce. I tend to agree with you on the multiple perp thing. I've done some reading on some of the Process offshoots and I think there might be some merit to it. Most of my reading was of Maury Terry and in my opinion he tends to grasp to prove his points but I see a possible connection with the group that was involved in the Son Of Sam killings. Some of the similatities are as follows:

1. Multiple descriptions of the perps.
2. Taunting letters to prominent media personalities and to the police.
3. Demands that the letters to be published.
4. Victims shot while in parked cars.

Those are just the ones that I can recall off the top of my head. Some of my reading was also Ed Sauders. Some people tend to refer Terry and Saunders as kooks but I disagree.

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wl014.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.199.24) on Friday, January 05, 2001 - 08:58 pm:

Maury Terry is a total wacko, but he is on to something. He just doesn't know what it is. His Grand Unified Satanic Conspiracy Theory is bogus, but he does make some interesting connections.

Ed Sanders relied on some pretty shaky sources at times, but there are no less than three very different versions of THE FAMILY, and if you read all three, you get a very clear picture of what actually went down with the whole Manson thing.

By Gomper (Gomper) (slip-32-103-46-18.al.us.prserv.net - 32.103.46.18) on Saturday, January 06, 2001 - 05:22 am:

Has anyone read "Unholy Alliance" by Peter Levenda? It's the book that led me to "Ultimate Evil"(and yeah, I know we could argue that book's
merits--or lack thereof--all day) which, in turn, led me to "Zodiac". Most of "Alliance" is a history of Nazi occultism, but it also delves into the Process Church, Manson, Son of Sam, etc.; a good read all in all.

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-tp071.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.204.206) on Saturday, January 06, 2001 - 06:33 am:

I've read UNHOLY ALLIANCE and have enough firsthand knowledge of that particular subject and most of the personalities involved to be able to state unequivocally that the book is saturated with bovine fecal matter.

I used to hang out with Levenda, he has a lot of agendas, most of them hidden. He and Penn might have been seperated at birth.

By Gomper (Gomper) (slip-32-103-46-231.al.us.prserv.net - 32.103.46.231) on Saturday, January 06, 2001 - 11:17 am:

So your feeling is that everything Levenda had to say concerning the Process and Manson was bulls**t?

By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (acab902c.ipt.aol.com - 172.171.144.44) on Saturday, January 06, 2001 - 11:50 am:

You guys need to start a new thread for this Terry/Process discussion.

By Realtor (Realtor) (1cust8.tnt5.west-houston2.tx.da.uu.net - 63.39.155.8) on Sunday, January 07, 2001 - 06:51 am:

Bruce: Re: The Mark of Cain, you asked for maybe a book Cane could have checked out of the library and found the symbol. Laurence Gardner references two works in the section on the Mark of Cain:

(1)Graves, Robert, With Patai, Raphael, "Hebrew Myths - The Book of Genesis," Cassell, London, 1964, p.97, and

(2) Engnell, Ivan, "Studies in Divine Kingship in the Ancient Near East," Basil Blackwell, Oxford, 1967, p. 37.

(Sorry to use quotes to set off the names of books--I haven't figured out how to underline on this board. I went to formatting and found the code, but I'm not into it yet.)

ANYWAY, there's TWO books that Larry Cane could have checked out of the library, from 1964 and 1967. I don't know the man's taste for literature..maybe he had to write a term paper...maybe he was pissed off to find out that the Bible/Judeo-Christian religion as taught in this country is NOT the whole truth. Is he Jewish perhaps? Can anyone check to see if he checked these books out of a library in the late '60's? Do we know what library he would have used? Do we know if he EVER checked any book out of ANY library? Do we know if his trauma from the accident with the ?cement truck? was resolved enough by then to enable him to read at all?

Realtor

By Gomper (Gomper) (slip-32-103-46-135.al.us.prserv.net - 32.103.46.135) on Monday, January 08, 2001 - 09:14 am:

Cane is of Jewish extraction, or at least that's what the narrator of the TLC Zodiac documentary said during the Cane/Harvey Hines segment of the program. If Cane is indeed Jewish, one might wonder if he had a religious upbringing through which he became familiar with Hebrew esoterica.

By Realtor (Realtor) (208.128.16.97) on Monday, January 08, 2001 - 11:24 am:

Alanc: You wrote a couple of days ago that the problem you had with the Mark of Cain thing was that the Merovingian stuff didn't come up until the 1970's. Do you mean that no one started publicly writing about it that you were aware of, till then? Or did you think that somebody first thought it up in the 1970's?

This stuff is REALLY ANCIENT...It strikes me as odd that the Sumerians seem to be the first homo-sapien-sapiens who wrote (at least that we have found) and what they wrote ABOUT was their line of KINGS...who came from their GODS. But that's another discussion, far, far away from this evil doer about whom we brood.

Just thought I'd ask, since I don't seem to see the problem that you see.

Realtor

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-tp034.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.204.189) on Monday, January 08, 2001 - 12:39 pm:

If the Merovingian bloodline theory was in circulation prior to the publication of HOLY BLOOD, HOLY GRAIL, it was a VERY well kept secret. I tend to think that the entire Priory Of Sion/Merovingian thing is a hoax built on certain Cathar relics to forward a Royalist agenda.

There's no doubt about the connection between Rennes-le-Chateau and the Grail myth. Otto Rahn focused his search for the Grail there during his tenure with Hitler's SS. The Merovingian material appears later, and tends to support both Royalist claims and Nazi racial ideology.

The Sumerian fixation comes on the heels of Robert Temple's book, THE SIRIUS MYSTERY, which turns out to have a few holes in its central thesis. Z. Sitchin is concocting a completely hare-brained scenarion built on bits of Velikovsky, Von Daniken, Temple, Kenneth Grant, and very badly interpreted Sumerian myth.

For a real handle on the Sumerians, consult the works of Samuel Noah Kramer. The Sumerians wrote a great deal more about beer than anything else, including their kings. Beer seems to have been the primary reason for the development of agriculture. Speaking of which, I think I'll end my digression here and go get some.

By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (mail.ci.colospgs.co.us - 204.131.210.1) on Monday, January 08, 2001 - 02:42 pm:

Realtor,

Good job on the 1960's book references. That's a start! At this point it would no longer matter whether or not these authors' scholarship on the "mark of Cain" issue is sound or not; what matters is whether or not these or any other books of the same genre actually do present the crossed-circle symbol as representing the "mark of Cain." The Zodiac himself would not necessarily be educated on the particulars, and thus could just assume that the information was accurate and use it as he saw fit.

Do you have the two books listed (by Graves and Engnell) in your possession, Realtor? If so, do the pages listed actually reference the point under discussion regarding the crossed-circle symbol?

Regards,

Bruce M.

By Curt Rowlett (Curt) (63.174.96.144) on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 01:45 pm:

Alanc wrote, "It just occurred to me that there were rumors of a Process splinter group or schism running around California in the 70s calling itself "4Pi", Pi as in the number. I wonder if that has any bearing here. I'm not much of a math guy. I know Penn is obssessed with Pi in his theory. . .Maybe one of you can fit this into something."

The Process member that I interviewed for my SOS/Process/Manson article explained to me that Process members sometimes referred to their group as "The Four P Movement," so named because the original Process symbol resembles four P's coming together to form an iron-cross type of symbol. (I have a picture of this symbol that is included with my original article). The pronunciation would be phonetic, as in saying "p", not as in the way you would pronounce the mathematical formula "Pi."

The rumors of violent Process splinter groups are just that: rumors. No real evidence has ever come forward to add real substance to the stories and I have looked high and low.

The person who helped give these rumors their big boost was Ed Sanders, the author "The Family," one of the first books about the Manson case. Sanders, while a good writer, preceded Maury Terry in the use of printing unsubstantiated hearsay as the gospel truth and much of that hearsay has now made it into the permanent mythology that surrounds the case.

Curt Rowlett

By Esau (Esau) (cc129455-a.rcrdva1.ca.home.com - 24.176.178.187) on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 06:02 pm:

Curt, I know that you've investigated the Process offshoot theories and was wondering if you have any information on that cannibal guy that Saunders wrote about in the Family. He's the guy that was caught wearing a medicine bag with fresh severed fingers in it and he told the officers "I have a problem, I am a cannibal". I can't remember his name but I'm sure you know who I'm talking about. I'm asking because I'm wondering if he looks similar to any of the Z composites.

By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (aca66ad9.ipt.aol.com - 172.166.106.217) on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 07:12 pm:

You guys should continue this in another thread...

By Curt Rowlett (Curt) (63.174.96.224) on Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 09:34 am:

Tom Voigt wrote: "You guys should continue this in another thread..."

Aye, aye, sir.

Curt Rowlett

By Realtor (Realtor) (208.128.16.97) on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 10:38 am:

Bruce:

No, I don't have either book. I checked my little county library and they don't either.
Any luck in your finding them? I think we would look for the Graves book first...that's the reference Gardner used for the passage about the Mark of Cain itself.

I have noted, however, that both books were published in Great Britain. Many have speculated here on this board that Z seemed to have a thing about all things British...

I'll keep checking around. Lemme know if you find it.

Thanks,

Realtor

By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p29.as1.dungarvan1.eircom.net - 159.134.234.29) on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 11:00 am:

Hebrew Myths is out of print.You can,Ironically,
buy it at Zshops,at Amazon.

By Realtor (Realtor) (208.128.16.97) on Friday, January 12, 2001 - 10:28 am:

Lapumo:
Good information. And I love the irony.

Realtor

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Sunday, January 14, 2001 - 01:34 am:

Esau, does the name Stanley sound right? Was he the killer of a lamp repairman in S.F.? If so he is out of jail, and I think living in the midwest.I heard at first the police thought it was a z crime, because of a z logo in blood on the wall.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Sunday, January 14, 2001 - 01:50 am:

I just found the post that some of you would like to hear more on Kane and the others? Its almost 2am and I am sleepy. I will write more after I get some sleep. I am so tired I don't remember the guy Tom refers to as "Martinez" can someone refresh my brain on that one? I live close to the town Martinez, but I don't have a suspect by that name.

By Esau (Esau) (cc129455-a.rcrdva1.ca.home.com - 24.176.178.187) on Sunday, January 14, 2001 - 07:16 am:

Hi Sandy. It could be Stanley. I was watching Tom's Zodiac video last night and they mention him by name but I can't seem to recall the name. By the way, if you don't have a copy of Tom's video you might want to get one. Alot of interesting stuff. The original news report of the body dumped in the Washington HS parking lot. Evidence from a killing of a coed from PUC in Angwin. Interviews with alot of different people. Interviews with a bus driver for Napa Unified School District. I gives you a good feel of the way people and things were back then.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Sunday, January 14, 2001 - 05:04 pm:

Esau, Thanks for the info.But I was in Vallejo at that time! I have a better feel for what was going on than any video could show.

By Mhoward (Mhoward) (chcgil2-ar3-064-098.dsl.gtei.net - 4.41.64.98) on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 06:16 am:

Realtor,

I hope I'm not opening another can of worms here, I just want comment on a topic you've raised. I think your post regarding the "Mark of Cane" is a valid point to offer.
Regardless of what the actual "Mark of Cane" is, that may not be as important as what the name itself represents, (i.e., Murderer.) And not just any murderer, mind you, but the first known murderer.

Like any student of any game, a student tends to study their predecessors, and from there, choose role models. How many aspiring basketball players sport Jordan's number 23 on their jerseys? How many guitar players want to be Hendrix? How many boy bands want to be the Beatles? My point is, it seems within the realm of possibility that Z was an admirer of Cane, maybe this is why he referred to Cane in his cypher. He said his true identity would be revealed, maybe he was calling himself, Cane (i.e., Murderer) not to let us know "who" he was, but "what" he was. That's where your point makes much sense.

It is odd that a major suspect also decided to change his name to Kane around that same time.

Best,
Mhoward

By Eduard Versluijs (Eduard) (erasmuscollege.nl - 194.109.60.77) on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 12:36 am:

Wasn't it actually "the Mark of Kain"?
In the bible God put this mark on Kain's forehead as a sign. If anyone who wanted to get after Kain for the murder of his brother saw the sign they knew this killer was protected by God.

-Eduard

By Realtor (Realtor) (208.128.16.97) on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 11:01 am:

Eduard and Mhoward:

It was all written so long ago in languages that don't directly translate...so Cain/Cane/Kain/Quain/Quawne...let's just get it phonetically correct and we'll be about as close as you can come. They all equate.

BTW, Laurence Gardner says that the Mark of Cain was not the mark of a killer because Cain didn't kill Abel...he "rose above him" which meant he achieved higher status than his brother, status as the first of a long line of kings that led eventually to Jesus and thus into the Merovingians in Europe. However, that tidbit is in response to Eduard's reference that a killer was protected by God; a KILLER was not protected by God...a KING was protected by God.

What's important here is that the misconception that the Mark of Cain meant a killer may have been one shared by our guy. Mhoward puts this better than I.

I'm just out here trying to earn a Zodie. Since I'm the one who thinks Z killed JonBenet Ramsey, I think I'm due some strange attention. How about it?

Realtor

By Eduard Versluijs (Eduard) (erasmuscollege.nl - 194.109.60.77) on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 05:35 am:

Hi Realtor,

I do not agree with Laurence Gardner.
Look at these lines from the bible...

And the Lord said,"What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to me from the ground. And now you are cursed from the ground, wich has opened it's mouth to recieve your brother's blood from your hand.
When you till the ground, it shall no longer yield to you it's strenght; you shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth."{Gen 4:10-12 RSV}

Realtor, it appears to me that Cain actually did kill his brother because Abel is never found again in the bible.
In the passage above Abel's blood cries for justice. God is driven to act.
What then does he do? He sentences Cain! He assigns a punishment to him.
Notice, there are no thunderbolts of wrath here.
Cain was a farmer, who delighted in producing beautiful crops of fruit and grain. But now he had poured the blood of his brother upon the ground. So God said, the ground will now be cursed toward you.
Cain in other words, lost his "green tumb".
The ground would no longer release it's resources to him; his working of the ground resulted in fruitless labor. he would therefor, be forced to wander from place to place as the crops failed wherever he went.

The story of Cain closes on a hopeful note,

Cain said to the Lord,"My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, thou hast driven me this day away from the ground; and from the face I shall be hidden; and I shall be a fugitive, and whoever finds me will slay me".
Then the Lord said to him,"Not so! If any one slays Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold." And the Lord put a mark on Cain, lest any who came upon him should kill him. Then Cain went away from the presence of the Lord , and dwelt in the land of Nod, east of Eden."{Gen 4:14-16 RSV}.

You see, Cain knows he can go nowhere in human society without constantly wondering if someone is on his trail. He doesn't know who is friendly and who can be trusted.
Maybe that's why Zodiac liked the Cain-story?
He could have identified with Cain.
God put a mark upon Cain saying:"Anyone who sees this mark will know that God himself protects Cain".
Maybe Z also thought none could harm him (he was crack-proof) because the only one who could take him on was God himself and God was the one protecting him from the police?

We will never know what the mark of Cain was. It is impossible to tell whether it was some physical mark, some sign in his body, wich indicated that he was God's property.
Perhaps it was a hopeless, pathetic look.
Maybe the same look as Zodiac had in his normal day life.
The look that made him look quite innocent!

-Eduard

P.S. I'm an atheist but just cited the bible to make my point more clear...Cain WAS a killer!!!

By Peterh (Peterh) (adsl-141-154-80-198.bostma.adsl.bellatlantic.net - 141.154.80.198) on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 07:10 am:

Sheesh. Why all the beating around the bush? What do you mean it "appears" that Cain killed Abel because Abel never appears again? How about it appears than Cain killed Abel because the story says "Cain rose up against Abel his brother,and slew him"? Gen. 4:8. Which part of "Cain . . . slew him" is unclear?

Here's the whole quote

Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

By Hugo (Hugo) (141.164.72.137) on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 01:51 pm:

Ye gods, this is turning into an odd tangent.

Not to add fuel to the fire, but...

At no point of this story is Cain cursed. God does not accept Cain's offering, but he does not reject Cain -- even after the murder. It is the land that is cursed. Abel's blood runs into it and transforms it. The ground is saturated by Cain's sin and becomes difficult to farm. Cain, the first farmer, is faced with extreme difficulties as a result. The mark placed on his forehead is divine protection from God -- a symbol of his mercy for all men -- even killers (or especially killers. YHWH appreciates blood offerings like Abel's. Cain gave a little blood offering of his own).

So what is the mark? There has been speculation by biblical scholars that it is a single Hebrew symbol (can't offer specifics -- my Hebrew is a little rusty) which resembles the traditional Christian cross turned on its side so it looks like an "X." This might have been taken by early Christians as their symbol for Christ's execution weapon as an allusion to the mark of Cain. The cross Jesus was nailed to most likely looked like a capital "T" rather than a lowercase.

Incidentally, do we know of any other famous murderers who have at one time gone around with an "X" on their foreheads (again, do not want to add fuel to the fire; it's just a weird coincidence)?

In the long run, though, what does any of this have to do with Zodiac? I'm a little unclear about Z suspect Kane's identity. Did he change his name to Kane? What is his real name? More importantly, what name did he go by in '68-'69?

By The Giant (Bryan) (144.141.27.172) on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 04:01 pm:

guys.

PS I'm an atheist but just cited the bible to make my point more clear...Cain WAS a killer!!!

Our Savior (even your's Eduard )is from Cain lineage. so it the first artificer of metal (Tubal Cain) Also Atheist is also a religion so actually "atheist" is a oxi-moron
and since you stated that Cain was a killer does that mean you believe Cain was a real person? and if so can you believe and still call yourself an Atheist?
Bryan

By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (ac825924.ipt.aol.com - 172.130.89.36) on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 04:30 pm:

Everybody, can we please get back to discussing Kane the suspect?

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 10:03 pm:

I met with Matt, and he is a real honest person. He knew things about Darlene that only someone who knew her could know. He knew the people who she knew, some of them have passed on. I showed him Davis,Andy Walker(the book name)my Rh look alike, a few more I just threw in. I asked him if he had seen a picture of Allen,and did he look anything like the man he saw? He was shaking his head "no" before I could finish. I showed him Kane he said if this guy had on glasses he would look the most like the guy who asked about Darlene. I had one other picture of a younger guy who also looked like Kane. He said its a cross between the two! Of course that doesn't make Kane the Zodiac,it only puts him perhaps in "one" more place z killed!

By Eduard Versluijs (Eduard) (erasmuscollege.nl - 194.109.60.77) on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 11:59 pm:

Hi Giant,
It is not important if I believe that Cain really existed or not. I Just wanted to help Realtor with his theory about the "Mark of Cain".

Hi PeterH, thanks for quoting the bible, I used a dutch bible and by this lost some things in the translation.

But just like Tom said:"Let's get back to the subject; Lawrence Kane part2".

By Chrissy (Chrissy) (dial-91.farmtel.net - 209.207.16.91) on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 11:04 am:

I don't know about Kane. He has a criminal record and his prints are on file, I assume that someone has(to rule him out)looked at the comparisons and found them wanting. He is the one individual tied to the cases I would love to sit down over coffee with just to hear what he has to say.

Hey Mr. Kane, if you read these threads and want to clear your name, I am willing to sit down with you in a restaurant up there in your mountains. If you look around these threads you will see that I have no suspect in these homicides. Heck, bring a lawyer(one with credentials)and I will see to it you get your side of this out in print.
I read that you like tropical fish(so do I, Amazonian Cichlids mostly)and are a Taurus(so am I.)

I really like going to the source, so please those of you who fear for my safety, know that even the most suspect have a right to be heard if the evidence clears them.

Chrissy Shaw

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Sunday, February 25, 2001 - 07:36 pm:

Chrissy, tell kane you will treat him to Ihops, he likes the pancakes with lots of strawberries on top. He is not a very friendly guy, so the chances are slim that he will respond to your request. I am real sure he reads the board, but he wont register under his name. I don't think he would want Tom to be able to trace it to his phone, or to his condo.

By Alan Cabal (Alan) (spider-wl031.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.199.31) on Sunday, February 25, 2001 - 08:30 pm:

Mmmmm... pancakes!

By Joshua Eagan (Joshua) (lsanca1-ar21-4-43-242-004.vz.dsl.gtei.net - 4.43.242.4) on Thursday, April 12, 2001 - 05:39 am:

Are there any further developments on Kane? I am glad to see I am not alone in feeling that Kane still is a viable suspect, as well as mention of the very possible idea that the Zodiac was indeed two people. I just cannot understand why after all these years Kane has not been more thoroughly investigated, God knows he has been scene enough times in the enough of the areas to make it a bit odd to say the least. If someone is seen once or twice, it can be ruled a coincidence, but several times, and identified as well by people, let alone knowing a victim, come on... this is way too strange. I also read another post about his writing samples, the conclusion was the same one as I had about the missing Z. His writing also is much closer to the Zodiac's letters than Allen's in my opinion. As of this time I wonder exactly where he is, or it is speculation about his location ?
Thanks Josh

By Ed N (Ed_N) (spider-mtc-te011.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.103.151) on Thursday, April 12, 2001 - 07:54 am:

Enough times in enough of the areas? There are only two possible Z victims that Kane can be linked to, and that's Johns and Lass. No others. I don't believe that Lass was a Z victim, but think that whoever her presumed killer was sought to blame it on Z by sending the Pines card to the Chronicle in March 1971.

As for Johns, maybe Kane did pick her up that night, but it's odd that the pic of Kane that is most widely known does not resemble the composite of Z, yet she identified her abductor as Z based on the composite. So I'm not sure what to make of that.

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ntc-tb021.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.16.156) on Sunday, June 17, 2001 - 09:32 am:

Anyone feel like discussing Kane (Cane, Krew, Cave, Kline)??
Ed, I read your last post here and I beg to differ, I think the composite looks alot like Kane. With Allen, the first thing I would have described to a sketcher, had I seen him would have been his chubby, round face and pug nose, with Ted K, the first thing I would have described would have been his prominent nose.
The other day I printed the composite of Z and had my little daughter draw big dark glasses on him, it looked like the same guy.
Tom may say it is the coke, though sorry I've never touched the stuff, but the handwriting is the same d**n thing. Look at the A, the L, the E,
it is the same d**n thing.
Sandy, are you out there??? According to you Kane obviously spent a good deal of time in Vallejo, do you know if he ever actually lived there??

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (60.philadelphia01rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 12.90.16.60) on Sunday, June 17, 2001 - 09:47 am:

Sylvie, the witness who saw Kaczynski at the CAAMS computer store in Salt Lake City recalled only two salient points: his underbite and his large, prominent chin. She saw him at very close range; probably no more than ten feet. The nose didn't stand out in her mind. Click here for a couple of different mug shots of Kaczynski; the first from 1968, the second from ca. 1962. Neither one shows a nose that is egregiously large. You're probably looking at shots of Kaczynski from the 1990s. According to the authors of "Mad Genius," FBI sources informed the media that Kaczynski had deliberately broken his nose on several occasions after 1971, ostensibly to change his appearance. The large lower jaw remains the most noteworthy aspect of his appearance.

By Oddball (Oddball) (slip-32-103-46-161.al.us.prserv.net - 32.103.46.161) on Sunday, June 17, 2001 - 02:40 pm:

I agree with you about the composite drawing, Sylvie; it looks quite a bit like Kane to me. As far as Kane's handwriting is concerned, however, I
don't see many similarities to Zodiac's at all. Still, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks Kane is an interesting suspect!

Oddball

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Sunday, June 24, 2001 - 03:55 pm:

Sylvie, I am still here.Kane bought a car in Vallejo 5 days after Darlene was killed.I would think he had to have been in Vallejo before that to see the car. He was seen by Matt many times before Darlenes death, parked at Terry's while Darlene was at work.He was the same man asking Matt about Darlene. Matt also said he would see the same guy at other places in the Vallejo area.He is the same man who followed me in 68 from Vallejo, late one winter night, in a small light brown car,later said to be the type and color of the car that the shooter drove on that July 4th 69."Someone" took off the coil wire to my car, just before I was followed from Vallejo to Napa. Kane's address shows S.F. in the city directory at the time of Darlenes death and Stine's also. S.F. is only a half hr. drive to Vallejo, so he wouldn't have to live in Vallejo to hang out.He worked in Riverside in 66.Was in S.F. at the same time as Donna Lass, he moved To Tahoe when she moved.He was at my job at the same time as Vicky Bell was. He left when she did, she was killed that afternoon,Easter Sunday 1988.I have someone with his same name, who was being seen by a doctor at Santa Rosa State Hosp. durring the time of all the Santa Rosa killings.Many young girls were being killed in the Pittsburg - Antioch area a few years back. I found one of them who got away from the killer, she ID'd Kane as the man she got away from. I myself watched him cruzing that area one afternoon, in a car without any Lic. plates!So of all the suspects, he can be placed in Vallejo as the man who was stalking Darlene. Living in S.F. when Lass was . He was In S.F. durring the time of the Stine shooting.( He lied to the police about ever living in S.F.)He moved to Tahoe when Lass moved,he was the same man who was bothering her just before she disapeared.He worked in Riverside in 66.While he was Living in Las Vegas the letters stopped from z. In 74 when he came back they started again.He looked just like the Lake B. composite at that time. I have seen him looking different many times. Even dressed as a woman!!! I spoke to him, thinking I was talking to a woman.Others at my job saw him also. The next day, next to where he had sat, was the Z logo scratched into the glass window.Yes I guess you could say he is just pretenting to be the Z,but he started this over 30 years ago,what would those odds be?

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (tcache-ntc-tc01.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.17.13) on Sunday, June 24, 2001 - 04:27 pm:

"Kane bought a car in Vallejo 5 days after Darlene was killed."

Even Harvey Hines has never made that claim.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Sunday, June 24, 2001 - 05:48 pm:

Tom, I am flattered that you read my every post. Maybe I should have wrote that the man Kane bought the car from, lived in Vallejo.Harvey did say that Kane got rid of his car, and bought another 5 days after Darlene was killed.I don't have my notes in front of me , but I think the mans name was Miles or Mills. And he did live in Vallejo. I will Email the information to you when I come across it again. I was going through all my news clippings, and notes to send to the people you asked to save the posting space, and Email me instead. That was how I came across the car bit.If that is not true, then the person who wrote it is wrong.I don't make up stories to convince people of Kanes part in the Z killings.When I write a theory I let people know, that is what it is.When I write what I know, and the only thing I know for sure, are the things I have seen myself or what has happened to me by this man. I was not at any of his killings, so I can only go by what I have read.And as you have found out ,not everything you have read or posted is true. I don't want to sound snippy to you Tom , because I do respect what you have done. If I don't respond to any insults by anyone its because I consider it's source. As much as you would like to believe Kane was never in Vallejo,and believe me I wish he wasn't,but he was.I had other very interesting post today, but they were deleted.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (tcache-ntc-td01.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.17.137) on Sunday, June 24, 2001 - 07:47 pm:

I haven't deleted any of your posts, Sandy, and I only ask people to e-mail instead of post when they are asking a specific question of another specific board user.

Kane's vehicle transaction happened in San Francisco, not Vallejo.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Tuesday, June 26, 2001 - 08:13 am:

Tom,Didn't the owner of that dealership in S.F live in Vallejo? If you can find out, I would like to know the real truth. I am sure anyone else interested in the Kane suspect would also.Thanks for not deleting my post, some how as I am writing some of them,my computer go's blank and your site is off.Someone keeps sending me virus's,maybe that is what it is. Thanks for the info ahead of time.

By Joshua Eagan (Joshua) (lsanca1-ar21-4-43-242-004.vz.dsl.gtei.net - 4.43.242.4) on Thursday, June 28, 2001 - 02:39 am:

Hi again all,I just wanted to ask Sandy a few questions via email. Sandy if you read this post could you please e-mail me ? I hope it is cool to ask this. Anyway, I am glad to see there are more than a few people curious about Mr. Kane. Something seems a bit too coincidental about this whole thing, but I must admit that Allen really was a pretty good fit to the M.O., but being that he was not arrested in all that time for these crimes, makes me even more suspicious about the Kane possibility. After reading Sandy's last few posts, it made me think about the Las Vegas issue and Kane. I was born and raised in Vegas, and I do remember a few of brutal murders of women in the very early 70's. I recall how the press was warning everyone the stay inside at night and for young women to not go out un-escorted. It just made me think about it. I had forgotten that due to the amount of years past. In recollection though, the murders where very brutal and from what I can recall, somewhat similar to the Z kinds of attacks, just without the "Z" calling card. Those types of crimes usually get blamed on the transients in the city, but now I really do wonder about the connection. In addition, thank you so much Sandy, for mentioning that Kane was linked to more than a few places, including Riverside, all at the right time frames respectively. I tend to believe what Sandy is saying. I think maybe, just maybe... she might be right and telling the truth about Kane. So my question to you Sandy is... Will the local police, or FBI see you ? If what you are saying is true, (which I do believe), why can't they bring him in for interrogation ? Please take care and Tom, thanks for your help and a really cool site ! Josh

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Thursday, June 28, 2001 - 11:24 pm:

Josh,I have seen both , and their hands are tied until he hurts me or kills me. A restraining order is a joke, when you are dealing with a man like this. From what I have heard, Kane is very sick right now. Stress can cause ill health, something, or someone, must have upset him! Karma? I believe you pay for what you do, one way or another.It will take a lot of "hard evidence" to prove who Zodiac is. I am praying for the DNA to do it! I was told the police have talked to him, he can put on a great act, a more polite man you have never heard. I read one of his court transcripts, it still had "ants" crawling all over it!! And thanks, I don't lie, that would be real stupid, and very easy to prove.

By Joshua Eagan (Joshua) (lsanca1-ar21-4-43-242-004.vz.dsl.gtei.net - 4.43.242.4) on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 03:24 am:

Thank you again Sandy, let's hope the police are a bit more tactful this time around... It would be insane to think Kane has not had his hand in this thing somehow. The Riverside connection to Kane is crucial and it brings to mind Allen's visit near the time of the Riverside murder. I would ask if this... Look at the writing on the desk from Riverside, and ask yourself if that does not really match Kane's writing... keep in mind it was carved. Furthermore, why was Allen in Riverside as well as Kane, at the same time. Then later they both ended up in Northern California, and not many miles apart from each other in distance, but a matter of minutes! Allen and Kane keep showing up throughout this case file. The coincidences are getting a bit ridiculous. I ask one final question, in today's day and age, if these crimes took place now, give me one reason that Allen & Kane both would not be picked up and arrested under suspicion ? Thank you again Tom for keeping this case alive, God knows the police seem to wish it would just go away. Take Care Joshua

By Joshua Eagan (Joshua) (lsanca1-ar21-4-43-242-004.vz.dsl.gtei.net - 4.43.242.4) on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 04:01 am:

Also let me please clarify my terminology of my use of the word carved, I am not referring to it literally... just the aggressive writing strokes used in the forming of the letters on the desk top... please notice the formations of the small case (n)and the (s) keep in mind Kane disguised his writing and used all caps when he was asked to write those sentences.. his sample can easily show how he was hiding his normal strokes. The (s) on the desk is a bit odd because the bottom ark of the S protrudes farther to the right than the top arc... just like Kane's small case (s) writing sample. I am not concerned about the shape of the S compared to his sample writing, because it is obvious by how many different way he changed it on that sample, I am more concerned with the depth of the stokes he used. Thanks again. Josh

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ntc-ta023.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.16.28) on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 09:02 am:

It would make sense that the perp of Cheri Jo was at least somewhat known to her, and was quite familiar with RCC in some manner. Kane was into real estate, the houses were abandoned, which Real Estate Co. was dealing with them?? Might he in some way have been brokering in the matter?
BTW, Kane was an agent, most of us who have bought homes know all the forms. An agent has to be intelligent enough to deal with all that. I think that Kane's car crash was alot less devastating than one may think (can you say ins. settlement?), but it is true that when the frontal lobe has been damaged, the impulse control is altered. The basic i.q. remains the same, even possibly heightens. It makes for a very dangerous person. They have recently done tests on a serial killer back east--the name just escapes me-- where he is shown to have a very high i.q. but his frontal lobe is obviously damaged.
At any rate, if Kane had a reason to be there in Riverside, if he was employed there he would have made deposits at the bank, where he could have encountered Miss Bates.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acb485d2.ipt.aol.com - 172.180.133.210) on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 12:14 pm:

For the last time, I have the Harvey Hines report on Kane, and
KANE CAN'T BE PLACED IN RIVERSIDE AT ANY TIME. HE WAS NOT THERE!
(This fact was also communicated to me during a phone conversation with Harvey.)

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 09:43 pm:

If Harvey , whom you say tells lies,then why do you believe that one? Even Harvey hasn't gotten all the info on Kane. I have some printing that Harvey never had, and a picture of Kane with glasses.Even DMV has him without the glasses.Harvey didn't know about the name Cave , Kane used. Harvey told Pam and I, Kane did work in Riverside. In the Riverside city directory, someone used the name The Zodiac, with an address in 66. I am sure you find that one hard to believe, but it is true!! If Allen could drive down to RCC, then why not anyone else?

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Saturday, June 30, 2001 - 11:10 am:

To all that read my last post last night at 9: 43 pm. Please except my apology for a geographical error I made!! I looked in my notes for the correct address for "The Zodiac" and it was 1825 LasVegas BL. So. LV NV.In 74 (Not Riverside in 66) I go to all the suspected Z sites, look at the dates for "all" of the suspects names and dates in that area.I even looked up Allen for Tom, I found a A. Allen in Riverside in 66, it was a girl. Sorry I was confused and sleepy.I care enough about the truth that it took me a few hours to find it, and make the correction.