Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Other Suspects: Process offshoots......
|By Esau (Esau) (cc129455-a.rcrdva1.ca.home.com - 22.214.171.124) on Sunday, January 07, 2001 - 03:49 pm:|
Although Maury Terry and Ed Saunders give alot of hard to believe theories in their books (Terry "The Ultimate Evil" and Saunders "The Family") alot of it seems to make sense. They both seem to be heavy on possible Process offshoot groups being involved in the Manson and Son Of Sam cases. One interesting coincidence is that a convicted and admitted cannibal (out on parole I must add) is suspected of the Robert Salem murder in April, 1970. The word "Zodiac" was written in blood on the wall at the crime scene. He was an admitted member of the Chingon cult out of Santa Cruz, CA. As far as I know no one has been convicted of this crime although many suspect this person. I can't seem to recall his name. At any rate, there are so many similarities with Zodiac and Son Of Sam that I posted on another thread I feel that this might be worth investigating.
|By Gomper (Gomper) (slip-32-103-46-135.al.us.prserv.net - 126.96.36.199) on Monday, January 08, 2001 - 09:41 am:|
I feel that there are similarities between the two cases...but, boy, do folks roll
their eyes when I say that. I know Maury Terry is something of a zealot, and obviously he
should have been more careful about some of the allegations he made, but
there's a hell of a lot of research in that book...I find it hard to believe that it's all BS.
I have never spoken with Terry or Peter Levenda or none o'them cats, nor with any of the Zodiac victims or suspects. However, in my opinion, the Z
and Son of Sam cases do resemble one another; nothing that I have read up til now has altered this basic notion(although I am open to different ideas).
|By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wk051.proxy.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Monday, January 08, 2001 - 09:54 am:|
The SOS & Z cases resemble each other in too many ways to ignore: the cryptic,
mocking communications, certainly, but more importantly, the peripheral drug involvement
of certain of the victims and the disparate descriptions of the perps. The problem with
Maury Terry is that his knowledge of occult-oriented groups is based entirely on
second-hand information and more often than not is just plain wrong. Peter Levenda
(perhaps best known for his NECRONOMICON, under his "Simon" alias) has plenty of
first-hand knowledge, but bends the truth and perpetrates outright lies in the service of
his own rather murky agenda.
The books are worth reading, just take the contents with a slice of lemon and a LOT of salt.
|By Curt Rowlett (Curt) (184.108.40.206) on Monday, January 08, 2001 - 11:42 am:|
Alanc wrote: "The books are worth reading, just take the contents with a slice of
lemon and a LOT of salt."
Well put, and I'd add a bottle of Tequila to that recipe; It will make The Ultimate Evil at lease seem to be slightly more coherent! Sorry if that sounds blunt, but I have researched The Process angle to the whole alleged Son of Sam "conspiracy" (and even corresponded with Berkowitz in prison) and found that not only did Maury Terry drop the ball numerous times in his own research, he flat out lied in many, many areas.
But, to give Maury a break, he does provide some interesting evidence that Berkowitz may indeed have had accomplices in that particlular series of murders, but not anything that proves that a worldwide, Satanic conspiracy was at work.
I don't for a second believe that there is any connection to the Zodiac case, though.
|By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-tp034.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Monday, January 08, 2001 - 12:45 pm:|
The connection may simply be that members of the SOS crowd were familiar with the Z
case and imitated the letters to the extent they were capable.
Just as Z may have been familiar with the Texarkana Moonlight Murderer and imitated the MO somewhat. He certainly had to be familiar with Jack The Ripper, and I'd say the Z literature is something of a "tribute" to that case.
|By Curt Rowlett (Curt) (18.104.22.168) on Monday, January 08, 2001 - 01:02 pm:|
Possibly, but by "connections" I assume that you may be using that word more
in the sense of there being similarities? (I hate to get technical here, but
"connection" is a word that implies some sort of real linkage)
The Texarkana case is a fascinating one and almost as enigmatic as the Z case, although on a much smaller scale (and without the written communications, as far as I know).
The wording of some of the Jack the Ripper letters are also similar in mocking tone as Z's letter were and it is indeed possible that Z drew "inspiration" from both cases.
Interesting to think about.
|By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wn033.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Monday, January 08, 2001 - 01:36 pm:|
An interest in true crime seems to be one of the hallmarks of serial killers, as a
|By Gomper (Gomper) (slip-32-103-47-134.al.us.prserv.net - 126.96.36.199) on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 04:30 am:|
Alanc: So Levenda was "Simon"? Interesting!
Curt: If Berkowitz did have accomplices and they did all belong to some sort of cult or other, how
widespread was this group's influence? Was it limited to the New York area, or could these people have been part of a nationwide chain of different(but related)occult groups?
Incidentally, I don't have any particular gripe with "occult groups"; I don't think that most of the people involved are murderers or cannibals.
However, it is entirely possible that a few folks might go awry by taking negative doctrines waaaay too seriously(like the guys who blow up abortion clinics, to take an unfortunate example from one of our more popular religions).
|By Curt Rowlett (Curt) (188.8.131.52) on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 08:14 am:|
Gomper asked, "If Berkowitz did have accomplices and they did all belong to some
sort of cult or other, how widespread was this group's influence? Was it limited to the
New York area, or could these people have been part of a nationwide chain of different(but
What my own research found was that the whole "occult group" idea primarily existed in the mind of Maury Terry and David Berkowitz. What is unclear to me is whether it was Berkowitz who first started the story or if it was something that he borrowed from Terry and then tried to embellish on as the story grew. (I suspect the latter).
I interviewed Wheat Carr, daughter of Sam Carr, (the owner of the infamous barking dog that Berkowitz shot) and the sister of John and Michael Carr (two persons whom Terry alleges may have also been Son of Sam shooters, a real possibility in the multiple SOS shooters theory). Wheat told me that Berkowitz had stalked and terrorized her family for years and that even after he was in prison, he still wrote to the Carr family. She even claimed to me that he said that he planned to invent the whole "devil-worshipers did it" story to try and paint her brothers as evil people, causing her family even more grief and harm and to play the public for fools. I can't verify that, and only have her word that this was what he said, but I found her story very believable. (Many serial killers enjoy this sort of vicarious torture of their victims, even after they are in jail and I can imagine that Berkowitz is really "getting off" on being able to continue with his murderous fantasy by continuing to cause grief for the families of his victims).
There is some evidence that Berkowitz dabbled in occult literature, but of a very juvenile nature. And any "occult group" associated with Berkowitz probably only amounted to three or maybe four people at the most and was not anything that you could describe as sophisticated (more on the level of what you see with heavy metal "stoners" who are into things Satanic for the pure shock value of it, but with no organization or real understanding of the subject to speak of).
I interviewed Berkowitz by letter and was completely unimpressed with his story. He knows absolutely zilch about the occult and couldn't seem to keep his story straight from one letter to the next. His biggest hope right now is to try and influence the parole board and he will say virtually anything that he thinks will improve his chances.
O.K., I realize that this is way off-topic from the true focus of this board (Zodiac) but it is probably important to discuss it in the spirit of eliminating any lingering ideas that the SOS case has anything to do with Zodiac.
|By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wb021.proxy.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 08:44 am:|
It's not off-topic in this particular thread, Curt. It also fails to explain the
wildly disparate descriptions given of the shooter in the SOS case. In one of the events,
the description matches Wheat Carr very nicely ("Ski Cap"). John Carr's
"suicide" in Minot, SD, looks awfully hinky, especially as the body is two
inches shorter than John was when he was alive, and the death of Michael Carr is
While I do not subscribe to any kind of Vast Left Hand Path Conspiracy theory, I do think that a good argument can be made for a relatively small group of highly mobile occult kooks involved in the drug trade being at the core of the SOS case, and possibly the Z case as well. The Manson case is one good example of how such a group might operate.
I am deeply suspicious of the Vallejo PD footdragging in the Z case. It's beginning to reek of BLUE VELVET.
|By Curt Rowlett (Curt) (220.127.116.11) on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 09:50 am:|
You are right about it not being off-topic for this particular thread, but I always worry that Tom might not want to fill up his Zodiac message board by discussing another case on here. As long as he has no objections, neither do I. (As always, I find the SOS case to be an interesting one).
Hey, I am with you on most of the theory regarding possible multiple perpetrators in the SOS case, including having questions about John Carr's suicide. I have always been interested in the fact that so many different physical descriptions were reported for the SOS shooters. Many of the descriptions and composite drawings really do favor John and Michael Carr, and yes, the one drawing with feminine features is very interesting and I have read where many people suspect that it could have been Wheat Carr. But suspicion is only suspicion without any tangible or even much solid circumstantial evidence to back it up. So far, none has been forthcoming and Im withholding judgment on that without further evidence. (Still, I agree that it is darn interesting to speculate about the possibility though!)
I not sure that I really subscribe to the theory that John Carr's death was a murder, but I definitely do see it as one of the possible indicators that he may indeed have been involved in the SOS case. I personally suspect that he may have killed himself simply because he feared being caught and sent to prison, if in fact he was involved in the SOS murders.
I don't doubt your hypothesis above that a small group of occultists could be involved in the drug trade, and that it could even be possible that the Carr's were mixed up with Berkowitz in the SOS murders and were also selling drugs. I guess that what I am saying is that I don't see anything particularly ground-shaking about that possibility (anymore than I am already rattled by the fact that a group of individuals would all get together and agree to commit a series of violent homicides!)
And like you, I dont believe in any vast occult conspiracy, especially one that included the Process Church. (My old website, Labyrinth13, contained a story that I researched and wrote about possible connections between SOS, the Process, and the Manson case. In the course of my research, I interviewed many people, including a former Process Church member from the original core group that was active during the 60's and beyond. I still add updates to the story whenever something interesting comes to my attention; I no longer have my website online, but hope to have it back up again someday. If you are interested, let me know and I can e-mail you a copy of the story).
What became apparent to me was that all of the avenues that Terry attempted to go down in search of a vast occult conspiracy kept coming back to the same few possible suspects. This suggested to me (using my common sense and not a conspiratorial frame of reference) that if there were more than one person involved in the SOS murders, then it was a loosely knit group and certainly one that had no ties to a larger group. Terry was probably disappointed by this fact because as an investigative journalist who had invested quite a bit of time in the story, you can say that he had quite a serious interest in seeing the story grow to greater proportions that what it in reality possibly could. My problem with the whole mess is that because of Terry's bias and fervent hope that he would break the story of the decade (or perhaps the millennium) he stretched facts, embellished others, and flat out made up a few. As a result, so much smoke has been pumped into the case that it is doubtful that it will ever clear! He would have held my attention longer if he had pursued the possible Carr/Berkowitz connections without trying to paint such a large picture of a vast conspiracy with national and global ties. As such, his credibility is forever tainted and that is a real shame because the case deserves further scrutiny.
|By Gomper (Gomper) (slip-32-103-46-165.al.us.prserv.net - 18.104.22.168) on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 10:29 am:|
Guys, this has indeed been really interesting stuff. Thanks for the info.
|By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wk051.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 04:46 pm:|
A limited selection of Process literature is available online, I don't have the URLs at hand, but a Google search will yield nifty results if you just type "Process Church" in the SEARCH field. This literature is pertinent not because the Process may have been behind this (I think NOT, most emphatically), but because groups of this nature schism, and it's the schismatic element that falls within our range of inquiry.
|By Curt Rowlett (Curt) (126.96.36.199) on Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 10:07 am:|
Alanc wrote: "A limited selection of Process literature is available online, I
don't have the URLs at hand, but a Google search will yield nifty results if you just type
"Process Church" in the SEARCH field."
A Google search that I performed with Alanc's search term gave me the following links:
You can also try:
|By Howard (Howard) (dialup-188.8.131.52.losangeles1.level3.net - 184.108.40.206) on Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 09:36 pm:|
I have a ton of Process publications.Both Manson and Davis were interested in this
cult.M admitted on a taped interview with a BBC guy named Murphy(I had lunch with him to
dicuss his questioning of Bruce Davis)that he sent Bruce over to England to reunite the
Process with it's former Mother organization Scientology!
The name of Cain(you took up a name that seemed descriptive of your deeper self)was very popular in Processian circles.Also,as a FYI ;in one of their magazines there is a huge circle with a cross identical to Zs.The "my name is"is 13 characters long, as is Charles Manson(note the LAST 3 letters-nam reversed are man). The only astrological planetary symbol is Aries or that Z ever used! (see my Masonic thread and esp. the reversed Aries symbol)and it is reversed-the opposite is Libra or Davis' sign.The 3 -circled-(note a circle ),Taurus symbols-NOT 8s-could represent Manson's Rising sign which is Taurus (Venus rules both Taurus and Libra-T is the opposite of Scorpio, Ms sign!)or the physical aspect.
The 'processes' of both Scientology and it's off shoot the Process were similar.There were the letters X Y Z and they indicate goals -Z being the END result.On one explanation is "Z which is killing"-this being the end result ,with X representing trusting and Y as frightening."There are triangles -which are graphed -of what you want (now all those are unconscious)and what stops you from getting what you want."Then are pictured 3 triangles starting with X Y and the goal Z.(I thought of those drawings in the 69' Gaul death threat note with a Z at the end!;see www.zodiacmurders.com under Letters)that seem like triangles or Deltas in Greek. I have studied Greek and Hebrew for 38 years(I've had a cring or two when reading post expositions on certain H/G words,but oh well!) and can see that possibility.What I am saying is the Z could have been influenced by both cults or "churches.Z was a most important symbol for them. Manson was always talking about Z being the last in line and about his "Z Team"for killing,etc.
We have heard much of Zodiac's voice.Graysmith said "It was a remarkably calm voice that came from beneath the hood ,a voice that was not high pitched -or low pitched,a monotone."It seemed like a drawl,but not a southern drawl.We have the Johns account where she says the stranger (I think it was Z)spoke in a monotone."No emotion...No anger ,no kind of emotion.Nothing.The words just came out.He didn't speak abnormally slow but VERY PRECISE.It just came out.Period.What he was going to say.It just had no feeling."(EMP mine) If someone studied both S and P then it would not be such an unusual thing to speak in this manner;and to repeat the same thing over and over again.In the Processes of both groups(TR-I)one learned "Articulation"-it was, as a Teacher said "an elocution lesson"in which the adherants were"taught to speak clearly and concisely."No emotion was allowed,as one of the reasons for this 'monotone way of speaking' was to have complete control of one's emotions.Control was a big thing here(12/20/69 Z letter-note how many times "control" is used).During the lessons the student was to repeat a sentence over and over in "a direct manner,without using extreme gestures or other distractors."Manson a former Scientologist/Processian taught his followers the same thing.He told them that they "were to get a piggie[person!]in a car and without any emotion repeat the same threat constantly and when you got astute at it the 'piggie would die of fright!'That's what I think was going on in the terror ride and why it went on for "a coupple howers"(Z called it "interesting") -and why he would pull over and stare with "dead pan eyes"and repeat in that distinct monotone voice the same sentence -and with no emotion-(I know this seems absurd, but so was the "terror ride"-big time!) so that she would hopefully, be frightened to death-as M had said!
|By Curt (Curt) (220.127.116.11) on Friday, November 02, 2001 - 04:04 pm:|
FYI: My article on the Process/Manson/Son of Sam is back online again and can be viewed
|By Esau (Esau) (12-246-187-137.client.attbi.com - 18.104.22.168) on Thursday, July 25, 2002 - 07:44 pm:|
I was watching a documentary on The Son Of Sam last night on Court TV. I've always felt that the similarities between that case and the Zodiac case may be more than coincidental. Attacks on couples with males usually surviving, letters to the press, lone gunman (if you buy that theory) and a few others. They were discussing letters that Berkowitz had written to Sam Carr complaining of his dog's barking. They showed one letter for second or two and I noticed that it was signed "A Citizen". That probably means nothing but I thought I'd throw that out and maybe get some fresh topics going.......
|By Rachel Orsini (Rachel_Orsini) (pcp212644pcs.glst3401.nj.comcast.net - 22.214.171.124) on Friday, July 26, 2002 - 02:55 pm:|
I watched A&E's David Berkowitz Biography the other night and thought the same thing.The victims, settings and letters are similar.I wonder if Berkowitz could have been inspired by Z's crimes?A lot of coincidences...
|By Esau (Esau) (12-246-187-137.client.attbi.com - 126.96.36.199) on Friday, July 26, 2002 - 06:23 pm:|
I've always thought that there was a strong possibility that the two cases are somehow connected. I'm sure I'll get blasted on this MB for saying that but since every other angle has proven fruitless I'll be glad to accept that as a possibility.
Wasn't there evidence that Manson and SOS were connected? This is according to Maury Terry so I'm skeptical. Howard, help me out, I'm dyin' here......
|By Rachel Orsini (Rachel_Orsini) (pcp212644pcs.glst3401.nj.comcast.net - 188.8.131.52) on Friday, July 26, 2002 - 07:33 pm:|
You may be right.I guess they could be connected in one of two ways...either DB was a true crime buff who decided to 'copycat' Z in some ways or the satanic/cult route.Either way I think there is definitely some relation.We may never know since SOS not only changed his story once but he also claims he'll never speak of his past crimes again.The DB homepage is quite interesting - it contains various letters (typed) to victim's families, the governor, etc.The satanic reason for his crimes appears to be the way he still feels, as he says he is trying to help others out of that lifestyle.
Take Care, Rachel
P.S.If they try to take us down on this MB Esau,it won't be without a fight...we are crack-proof!
|By Alan Cabal (Alan_Cabal) (184.108.40.206) on Friday, July 26, 2002 - 07:45 pm:|
The SOS case relates back to the thread about those police sketches and the
discussions about the reliability of eyewitnesses. I'd add that I don't believe much of
what puffs out of Berkowitz' ugly mug.
The text similarities would incline me to believe that the author(s) had at least a passing familiarity with the Z case.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-85.linkline.com - 220.127.116.11) on Friday, July 26, 2002 - 11:42 pm:|
There,in my view,isn't enough solid evidence to positvely link CM to SOS at this time.
|By Rachel Orsini (Rachel_Orsini) (pcp212644pcs.glst3401.nj.comcast.net - 18.104.22.168) on Saturday, July 27, 2002 - 07:09 am:|
I agree about the sketches...all of the ones I've seen do not resemble Berkowitz.In your opinion, do you think that has to do with the unreliability of eyewitnesses or do you think it lends credit to DB's account of a satanic cult of more than one shooter?