Sandy's Suspects


Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Other Suspects: Sandy's Suspects

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Thursday, January 18, 2001 - 10:45 pm:

Realtor, I have 4 suspects 1 of them I have seen with kane,and one other who let kane use his car to follow me,The 4th one is Darlenes first husband. Two of them are artist,one is a printer,and Kane, I have been told is in realestate. I have seen him in construction clothes like a mason,because of the gray dust on his clothes,from Cement or plaster.I took his picture in those clothes. Mr.Realestate who is also a Mason,sound familiar ?

By Realtor (Realtor) (208.128.16.97) on Friday, January 19, 2001 - 12:18 pm:

Sandy:

No, the Mason part is not ringing any bells. What's the connection?

BTW, do you think ONE of these guys IS Zodiac, or do you think all 4 acted as a group?

Realtor

By Marbar (Marbar) (mp-217-201-148.daxnet.no - 193.217.201.148) on Sunday, January 21, 2001 - 05:01 am:

Sandy:

I am very interested in hearing about your theories, your suspects and your story in general, but:

it is all very confusing... I've tried to follow your posts on the various threads on this board, but I'm not able to get the whole picture. You tell a little bit here and a little bit there, but it is impossible to "stitch" it all together into a theory...

What if you told your story soon? If you feel like it, be brief (you don't have to go into detail on everything).

In my opinion, it is rather confusing the way you present your story right now. Give us, once and for all, the opportunity to know your story...

MarBar

By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (csd145.bvi3.cos.pcisys.net - 207.204.7.145) on Sunday, January 21, 2001 - 09:06 am:

Patience, Marbar, I'm working on it.

By Oscar (Oscar) (pool0496.cvx26-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net - 209.179.223.241) on Sunday, January 21, 2001 - 02:20 pm:

Dear Adversary,
You were rather unclear, yourself. Are you "working" on Sandy, or on Sandy's story? Why would you be working on Sandy's story: are you a literary agent? Perhaps you are...SANDY!!
Oscar.
p.s. Bruce, check out your nomination in the 'Zodie' conversation.
p.p.s. It has always sounded to me like Sandy's story is derivative of the wild one printed in the Napa paper a few year's back.

By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (csd145.bvi3.cos.pcisys.net - 207.204.7.145) on Sunday, January 21, 2001 - 04:23 pm:

Sorry, Oscar, I meant to say that I'm working "with" Sandy in getting her story and information into a systematic format that will be easily accessed and understood by those interested.

Bruce M

By Gomper (Gomper) (slip-32-103-47-235.al.us.prserv.net - 32.103.47.235) on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 08:39 am:

Sandy, could Kane's slurred speech(or Southern drawl, depending on one's interpretation)have something to do with his habit of changing identities? I know about the brain damage but, according to the info on crimelibrary.com, he has used at least a couple of aliases, and he looks different in every picture I've seen. A change in
speech patterns might be in keeping with this.

By Realtor (Realtor) (208.128.16.97) on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 11:07 am:

Are you suggesting a guy with multiple personality disorder who is also a killer who also suffered a traumatic brain injury in the '60's who has slurred speech who has a Southern drawl who is ALSO able to make a living selling real estate?

I think the picture of Lawrence Kane is getting a bit fuzzy to me. Can anyone focus us on what kind of guy he is now and what kind of guy he was in the '60's? It's hard as hell to make a living selling real estate unless you do little else. You also need stamina, logic to word a contract, good math skills and good "people" skills to get people to negotiage and to choose you as their agent.

Realtor

By Gomper (Gomper) (slip-32-103-47-121.al.us.prserv.net - 32.103.47.121) on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 04:19 pm:

I'm suggesting just what I said: If Kane changes his name and appearance, then he might also change the way he speaks from time to time. I have no idea how successful a real estate salesman Kane is, and I don't believe that his age would permit
him a lot of physical activity; nevertheless, he is an interesting suspect and, to gain a clearer understanding of the situation, I ask questions.
No idea is too far out to pursue--You can weigh all the information when you have it.

By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-tb084.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.16.189) on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 09:29 pm:

"Lawrence Kane" is a surprisingly common name, and how do we know that Hines didn't accidentally find two or three or more by the same name, with similar zynchronicities revolving around them, and assumed that they were the same person? That might account for the fuzziness of the picture. Stranger things have been known to happen...

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 09:34 pm:

ED check your mail! Gomper, Its true he changes the way he looks with out much effort.But the way he sounds is due to the car accident he had in the early 60s,only half of his mouth works. His drawl is not southern in any way. If anything you can barely hear a New York accent. I noticed it when I heard him say : go down dare. (instead of go down there). Ed could be right about Hines, all the pictures I saw of the man Harvey calls Kane, looked different than the one I picked out of his line up as Kane.I told him that's him that's R.H.! He said no, that's Kane.

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wl031.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.199.31) on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 09:48 pm:

So lay the cards out on the table. Name your suspects and spin out a plausible scenario. This ongoing tease is wearing as thin as Pam Huckaby's OPRAH shot.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 10:03 pm:

Realtor,I wish I knew for sure. I believe they all did at least one killing each, to not only cause the confusion it has, but to insure each other they would have to keep quiet or they would all be caught. This worked in the Son of Sam case.The connection I was making about Mr. Realestate also being a Mason, was The Killer of Arlis Perry At Stanford calif, was said to be called Mr. Realestate, and that he was also a mason.This suspect Kane is both, and is from N.Y.!He loves to stalk his victims first,Arlis Perry was for sure stalked. The man who wouldn't say hello to her in the elevator,I believe was her killer. If you didn't read the book then none of this will make sense.This book has been made fun of by the posters on this board(The Ultimate Evil)read the killers notes,the wording is a lot like the words of Z. Here goes another can of worms!

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 10:35 pm:

Alanc,I am not trying to tease anyone.Kane has been made public by others, so I can write about him, but the others are still alive,You can go only so far with the so called freedom of speech. Not only could they sue me,but I have been told to stop my investigating or they would hurt my children. The police are the only ones who need to have all four of the names.Tom has also asked us not to name the suspects,I will do what he has asked. My other suspects are friends of Kanes,and have never been questioned regarding the z case.Only one of them has never been arrested or was ever in the military,I refer to him as R.H. he is the one who looks like Paul Stine,and the one who I believe shot Stine.

By Gomper (Gomper) (slip-32-103-47-97.al.us.prserv.net - 32.103.47.97) on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 08:25 am:

Sandy, I was wondering about what you said in your
earlier post: that your Kane and Harvey Hines's Kane might be two different men. Is the LK mugshot found on this site a photo of your suspect, or not?
Thanks also for answering my question about the way Kane speaks. (By the way, I know it stinks to be ridiculed incessantly because you have a different theory about the murders. As I've said before, I was firmly struck by the similarities between the Zodiac and Son of Sam cases as they were presented by Graysmith and Terry, respectively. I'm not a researcher--just a reader--but in my opinion the multiple-killer scenario is quite possible.)

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wb042.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.192.167) on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 09:28 am:

Nobody's ridiculing Sandy because she has "a different theory about the murders." I lean toward the multiple perp theory myself. What's annoying about Sandy is that her "theory", so far, consists exclusively of hints and tiny fragments of information, occasionally second-hand and wrong, such as the suggestion that Darlene Ferrin sewed the LB costume. If she ever gets around to posting something cohesive enough to be examined, it might be critiqued as have the other theories here. As it is, it looks like an attention-getting device not unlike Housecat or Searcher.

Sandy, if you can't name names, that's perfectly understandable. Lay out a plausible, linear scenario and I'm certain it'll be treated with the same level of respect as the other theories. Use aliases for your perps if you have to, but dropping hints and fragments for months on end isn't exactly conducive to gaining respect.

Maury Terry is an extremely unreliable source of information. THE ULTIMATE EVIL is pumped full of innuendo and plain old errors. He did a great disservice to all who attempted to get the NYPD to examine the possibility of the multiple perp scenario in the SOS case with his absurd Grand Unified Satanic Conspiracy nonsense. He became a major noise factor in the attempt to get at what really happened in 1977.

Seperating the signal from the noise is half the battle with these cases, from the Ripper on up.

By Gomper (Gomper) (slip-32-103-46-33.al.us.prserv.net - 32.103.46.33) on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 06:33 pm:

The errors in "The Ultimate Evil" have been acknowledged and, obviously, references to the book should be qualified(which is why I said "as presented by...Terry"). It remains for someone to set the Berkowitz/Son of Sam story straight, but Terry did at least bring the multiple-perp scenario to people's attention.
Bruce has said that he is helping Sandy put all the details of her story together, and I anxiously
await the results.

By Jeffreyfalk (Jeffreyfalk) (ac9c3c3f.ipt.aol.com - 172.156.60.63) on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 07:05 pm:

As far as Harvey Hines (or anyone else) mistaking two or more different Kanes as being the same person: is this a "new" theory? It's highly likely. The name is common enough that a newscaster here in Philadelphia who is something of a local celebrity is named Larry Kane. Now, even I know that one other person who happens to be known to me is not necessarily worth getting excited about, it certainly doesn't help disprove such a theory.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 07:04 pm:

I found 3 of them in the late 60s in S.F.! But only one of them changed his name, but not his address, then moved to Lake Tahoe. He also used the name Kent Williams, I found 4 of them also, one in Vallejo, one in Napa, the other in walnut creek, and lake tahoe. Two of them were married ,one to a Vallejo police woman. I believe anything is possible in this case!

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 07:49 pm:

Alanc, The part about Darlene sewing was a theory. I did not say I knew she could sew, that part came from the book. I was theorizing what I thought could be plausible. Most girls who went past the 9th grade had sewing in school, how she may of missed it I would like to know. My sister doesn't know everything I can do,and we are very close.Pam believes Betty lou Jensen baby sat for Darlene,yet Mrs. Jensen when asked (we were all told this on the board)said she did not.All we have is speculation.When I first started posting, I told a lot about what was going on in my life, and that I was told the man who is stalking me is Larry Kane. I was made fun of, just like Pam,and I did back off a bit. You must of missed a great deal of the story sense you just started posting. Matt will help all of you catch up,I will work on the parts that seem to be confusing.It is a fascinating, yet unblieveable but true story, about a man who likes taking lives.He has taken mine,and plays with it to fill his own empty life.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 08:06 pm:

Gomper,yes the picture shown on this site and on AMW tv show, is the same man I picked out of Harveys line up.The other pictures he showed me ,(whom I was told was also Kane) did not look at all like him. But Pam told me that Harvey said they were.Pam was at this picture line up with me, maybe she can shed some light on this? She also saw the picture I took of this man, after he followed me into Lyons restaurant 8/9/90 at 6:30 pm. She asked me to turn the picture over, because she couldn't stand to look at it. That this was the man Darlene was so afraid of.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 08:20 pm:

Alanc, sorry I used Matts name instead of Bruce.(Sorry Bruce.)I am meeting with Matt in the morning and his name was on my mind. I will let all of you know what happens as soon as I get back.

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wk024.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.198.159) on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 09:58 pm:

This guy that's stalking you might be a lot of really weird things, but I'm willing to bet that he isn't the Zodiac or any part of the Zodiac. Why would he suddenly take to stalking people? And why you? If it were the Zodiac (or one of the perps we know as "Zodiac") you'd have been dead a long time ago.

By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-td023.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.17.158) on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 11:30 pm:

Sandy's told me, she doesn't know why he picked her. Nor is she positive that he's Z, maybe he just thinks he is, or maybe he decided to scare her by pretending to be Z. I don't know myself, all I know is that hers is a complex story, and it certainly does bear investigating...

By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (csd132.bvi3.cos.pcisys.net - 207.204.7.132) on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 10:31 am:

ALANC:T
his guy that's stalking you might be a lot of really weird things, but I'm willing to bet that he isn't the Zodiac or any part of the Zodiac. Why would he suddenly take to stalking people? And why you? If it were the Zodiac (or one of the perps we know as "Zodiac") you'd have been dead a long time ago.

BRUCE:
And you know this how, Alan?

By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (ac9f957f.ipt.aol.com - 172.159.149.127) on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 10:55 am:

Bruce, do you suffer from MPD?
It's very amusing that you find the case against Allen to be so far-fetched, yet seem to really dig Sandy's incoherent theory.

Maybe one day Sandy will explain her thinking clearly, but so far it seems to be jibberish.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Monday, January 22, 2001 - 10:32 pm:

Someone just to be funny, put a hood that was black made out of a paper sack,and a black cotton cloth about 36in wide 1 1/2yrds long with the z logo on it in the back seat of my brown car.They also left a ammo can filled with felt tipped pens, 3 earrings inside of it, and a small gray wrist watch.One ruler from Healds collage, a large eraser,one compass, a Webster's dictionary,one small bible 2in by 2in that was partly burned, a see through plastic alphabet template,a plastic name tag,with the name Daniel Perez in it. I thought it was a costume for Halloween in a few weeks, the year was 69.At that time I never saw any pictures of the z logo, so I didn't make any connection.Just one more of the odd coincidences in Napa.

By Oscar (Oscar) (pool0072.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net - 209.178.188.72) on Tuesday, January 23, 2001 - 04:10 am:

Sandy,
You desperately need to sit down with someone and work your story into a complete and coherant narrative structure. It would help us if you could do this asap, as your posts are hard to decipher. It would be great if you could get with a writer who could compose your entire Zodiac saga in a comprehensive, flowing chronological narrative.
There have been many times that I have been intrgued by something you have written, but I get tired of wading through the convulsive prose. Believe me when I say that, in all sincerity, I am not knocking you..okay? I do think that you have something to say about this case, but I would like to be able to understand what it is you are trying to say.
If you think I am alone in my opinion on this, you are mistaken. I know Tom has virtually begged you to do this as well, and a lot of the comments on the Zodie nominations refer to this as well. Nobody is knocking your integrity or beliefs.
Yours,
Oscar.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 12:01 am:

Oscar, its hard for me to follow as well, I am living it! Bruce M. is helping me with just that. I get so burnt out on telling it over and over, you are right , I know it is real hard to follow. I have many people asking me to email them my story so I do, I think it just too much for me at times. By the time I get around to the message board I get rummy. But thank you Oscar, I can take constructive criticism.

By Hurley (Hurley) (spider-tk053.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.206.198) on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 07:07 pm:

Sandy, have you ever thought about writing a book?

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 10:09 am:

Hurly, If I did people would say that I made all this up so I could write one. I would be happy to give my story to someone who would do it,and not ask for any money,if it would open some eyes in hopes of finding someone out there who will take my evidence of blood on the book that was left in my car , have it tested with Hartnells, and Shepards. Either it will reopen the case,or rather put it on the front burner,or end it for me. I would like my life back!

By Realtor (Realtor) (208.128.16.97) on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 10:41 am:

Sandy:

You just did it again--threw us a tidbit. I'll bite.

What was the name of the book? When was it published? Was the blood dried? How much blood was there? Did you have it checked for prints? Exactly where was your car when it was left in there? Exactly where was the book left within your car? What time would it have to have been placed there? Was there forced entry? If the book was a library book or a textbook, are there any accession numbers or stamped-on "Property of..." signs on it?

Could the book have come from Riverside? That is to say, is it Cheri Jo Bates' library book?

Sorry, I'm carried away.

Realtor

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wj013.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.198.23) on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 01:44 pm:

Bruce, the sort of activity Sandy is reporting is completely inconsistent with the known facts of the Zodiac case. Zodiac was (is?) a serial KILLER, not a stalker, not a harasser, and his (their?) coyote aspect was directed exclusively at the cops and the press.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 10:22 pm:

Alanc, all the facts on zodiac are not known!Even Tom hasn't heard it all.And if you did your homework you would know zodiac did stalk some of his victims.He enjoys playing a very scary game with whom ever will play. Its ok if you choose to think the way you do, but you are way off on knowing the real z ways as Pam and I both know very well. I have said it before and I will say it again, try walking in our shoes for a while and I'll bet they will be filled with something you wouldn't want to keep stepping in for long!

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 11:17 pm:

Realtor, I do like you , you ask all the right questions. The book was a Funk & Wagnalls Modern Dictionary for home ,school,office the size 9x6 1/4x1 1/2in. Published in New York and London in 1937 I didn't see any thing that indicated It was Cheri Jo Bates.Its a cloth covered book that was left in the back seat of my car on a warm day in napa at a bar called the Sahscol House ( not sure of the spelling)across from the Napa st Hosp. It was at the end of Sept or the first week of Oct69.I found it behind the drivers seat, under a ammo can filled with felt tip pens, most of them dark in color one was red or orange and one or two were white. Inside the ammo can at the bottom was a small girls watch,3 earrings two that matched in a lacy looking gold without the backs to hold them on,one earring that was a screw on with a very small Christian cross that dangled from it.Somewhere close to the can was a ruler from Healds collage,one large eraser, one green stencil of the alphabet,most of the letters had been used in a dark color ink(I don't think it was blue ink.)I read z used blue.On the floor behind the passenger set was a large paper sack painted black on the outside. It smelled like shoe polish or a strong ink,that filled the car even with the windows down!On the back seat was a black cotton cloth about 1 1/2 yrds long 36in wide. A z logo about 3in. in diameter was about mid chest.I don't remember it being sewn on for sure but I know it was something that I couldn't remove. I had a friend with me at the time, and because it was before Halloween, I said I could make it into a skirt and go as a Geisha girl we both LOL. The logo looked Chinese or Japanese to me.I didn't read anything about the Z warring anything like this at that time. I thought he wore a ski mask! The spots on the book that looked like blood, were 3or 4 small spots no larger than 1/4 in.The other spots looked like black ink, they were small also. I hope I made myself clear.

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wm073.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.199.183) on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 12:06 am:

How did the police respond to this?

By Chrissy (Chrissy) (dial-71.farmtel.net - 209.207.16.71) on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 05:12 pm:

Dear Sandy:

What agency took the book and clothing into evidence--if they did--and if not what was their reason for not examining such evidence?

Chrissy Shaw

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-te054.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.195.199) on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 03:17 pm:

Sandy, what was the name of the officer you first dealt with and with which police force was he affiliated? What are the names of the law enforcement officers with which you have been in contact regarding the matters you have been discussing here?

You seem to have a very serious problem. Help may be available.

By Realtor (Realtor) (208.128.16.97) on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 10:43 am:

Sandy:

What do you mean, you must have gone by the book? Wouldn't you know, when you posted this, that it was or wasn't your OWN knowledge of the events that you've portrayed to all of us as FIRST-HAND? I've been confused by your posts before and have asked for clarifications...I've seen where you and Bruce are working on your story. But Bruce can't hope to achieve anything worthwhile if YOU don't KNOW what you know.

I guess I should apologize in advance, but I'm suddenly very suspicious of you.

Realtor

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wa043.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.192.38) on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 12:31 pm:

Everybody has a pet theory, with varying ranges of plausibility, and that's all well and good. The thing about you that grates, Sandy, is that you assert that you have been stalked and menaced by persons that you claim to be the perpetrators, and you claim inside knowledge which you refuse to share.

You give the impression of someone whose elevator doesn't quite reach the top floor, desperately seeking attention at the expense of a group attempt to sift through a field of very difficult data.

You could clear all this up simply by providing a narrative. Getting defensive is not going to cut it.

In plain English: put up or shut up.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 06:31 am:

Alanc ,I have more attention than I would like thank you. I have had my 15min of fame. I would be happy to fill you in on the parts you are talking about. Would you please tell me which part you have miss reading? The short of my story is , I started being stalked in Vallejo by a man I did not know. I received love notes at first, then my coil wire was taken out of my car late at night. Some friends of mine robbed one from another car so I could go home.With out going into great detail (that some of you complain about, I am damned if do or don't)the man arrived at my home before I did . I saw his face, as I passed in front of my home, with my head lights off.He look very angry at me so I did not feel safe getting out of my car and running inside my home. I headed back towards town and found two police officers parked at a gas station. While I was telling them what happened, the man looked at me as he drove across the street to an all night restaurant IHOPS. The car he drove was just like the one a few months later described by Mike. It was at that point, I thought it could of been the same man( he did not look much older than 30, but could have been younger.) He had a round face and an afro hair style, a green jacket like a cops, without a patch so I do not believe it was a cop.I was dateing a Vallejo PD officer, the same one Darlene was dating, I was also dating a not so nice guy who treated me great! This guy was getting drugs and money from someone called Dee. I "don't" know if it was the same Dee as Darlene.I moved away in 70 I had a lt of phone calls at that time was the person would just stay on the line. A lot of car trouble and many flat tires. That may or may not have been him.In 72 something blew a large hole in the levey and my job was flooded. I moved to Concord Ca., still dating the Vallejo cop. A phone call came, and the man said: I just want you to know , I know where you live! Soon after a man followed me again from another job, I out smarted him and went back to my job, as I was running towards the front door the man tried to run me over. I could go on and on with things like that happening over the years. Then in Antioch Ca. Someone gave a small note to a friend of mine, and asked her to give it to me. He told her he and I had talked about the Zodiac, and he would like to help me catch him. I had never spoke to him about the Z! When I looked at the note, I did not notice the printing was just like Z's. It was much later I saw how much it looked like it. I gave it to S.F.P.D.Then I received a phone call saying: This is your secret admirer, sorry I missed you.( I thought he meant when I was shot at a few weeks before)then he said: don't worry we will get together soon.I gave that tape to S.F.P.D. Not long after that ,a group of people came into my job at Pier 29 in Oakland Ca.The man at the head of the table had a shaved head , like someone else who had a shaved head and drank the same drink that I had invented at my previous job 50miles away. It was Baileys' Ammaretto and coffee, these were the only two people who ordered that drink from me! It's hard to make this story short but I will cut to the chase.A friend of mine followed this guy out side to get me his plate number. I got it and it was a bay area address, This was how I got my first suspects name R.H.Two off duty cops saw this same guy that night, this man saw me talk to them, maybe he heard me say something about him ,I don't know. Eight months later, my friend who got me the plate number was stabbed ( disemboweled)and left for dead, that was on my birthday.The following Easter weekend a man with a full head of hair came into my job.He sat at the end of the bar and was staring at a pretty young girl and myself.The bartender was concerned because it was an angry look. I was asked to make sure she made it to her car when she left. I was waiting on another table when they both left at the same time. A body of a girl warring the same clothes, was found dead on Easter Sunday. Her Name was Victoria Bell. A few weeks latter someone put a neatly folded package of newspaper clippings about two girls found murdered, on my cocktail tray, they were stapled together.This man started to come in almost every night I worked . I started to carry a gun, because he was following me some 50 miles to and from work . The police said unless he did something to me, they could not help me! In 90 I met Pam for the first time , we compared notes and one plate number was a match.We both noticed that we were followed by more than one person. I would start to tell her about an incident, and she could finish it and vice -versa.I got tired of being followed, and the police said to take his picture, so on Aug 9th 90 I did ! That ,man I am told is Larry Kane and he is a Z suspect. I hope what I have written has satisfied you, and anyone else who is confused.The other suspects I have came from other plate numbers I had ran on the cars Kane drove.

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-tp044.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.204.194) on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 06:43 am:

Thanks, Sandy. That clears a few things up.

I'm interested in the apathetic response of the cops. Don't y'all have some serious stalker laws out there in Kalifornia? Maybe they only apply to the pampered celebrity class. Was this the famous Vallejo Police Department? It's beginning to sound like those guys couldn't pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were written on the heel.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 07:20 am:

It was Antioch Pd. In 1990 I asked one officer if he ever heard of the stalker law? I couldn't believe my ears, he hadn't ! Now they tell me to get a restraining order against this man. (LOL) If this guy is the "real" Z can you picture that stopping him? I have invited him to meet with me in a public place. I am still waiting, he won't even talk to me on the phone.Talk about a coward! Alanc I am glad I cleared a few things up, let me know the part that isn't.

By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (aca063e4.ipt.aol.com - 172.160.99.228) on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 12:42 pm:

Sandy, who told you the photo you took was of Larry Kane? Do you still have it?

By Edward (Edward) (adsl-63-205-196-103.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net - 63.205.196.103) on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 02:52 pm:

Sandy,

What was the response from the police when you reported the Zodiac costume or bloody book in your car?

By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (csd132.bvi3.cos.pcisys.net - 207.204.7.132) on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 09:07 pm:

VOIGT:
Bruce, do you suffer from MPD?
It's very amusing that you find the case against Allen to be so far-fetched, yet seem to really dig Sandy's incoherent theory.

BRUCE:
Why, No, Tom! Do you suffer from Analcranialinversionitis?

First, I don't find everything against Allen to be "far-fetched." I DO find the manner in which you selectively report "evidence" and apply creative interpretations ("connections") in order to paint a pro-Allen picture, while conveniently ignoring the problematic con-Allen evidence, to be detrimental. You create your own rules of evidence in which you dismiss other "suspects" by criteria that you do not equally apply to Allen, thus ruling him out as well. You work your butt off in trying to make every tidbit of information into a "connection" with Allen, but just conveniently ignore, or worse, creatively interpret the "misses" in order to keep Allen in the running. You will spend countless hours on the phone and in person with the likes of Chaney, and eat-up everything he says as though it's some sort of end-all truth, but you won't lift a finger to spend that kind of time with Johns, Pam, or <<gasp>> Sandy! And do you know why that is, Tom? Because you have already made up your mind and you are not going to let anything contrary to that stand in the way of a good preformed conclusion! If any of these three women (it is interesting, I think, that it's all women) had come forth with information implicating Allen, Pam especially, do you deny that you would be all over it like stink-on-#hit? Duh! But since Allen isn't even a factor here, well, that's just not worth your time ... is it?

I am not saying that everything Pam and Sandy have to say is necessarily pertinent to this case, or that what they have to say should be taken as fact without supporting evidence (although, considering your standards of evidence for pro-Allen conjecture...), but they have offered interesting information that deserves every bit as much, if not more, of your efforts--especially considering the length this case has drug-on with no resolution in sight.

Indeed, Allen has been drug-over-the-coals for thirty years and NEWSFLASH!!! in all of that time there still isn't a shred of physical evidence linking him to any Zodiac crime scene or piece of Zodiac writing!

When, exactly, will you begin to realize that maybe the reason for this is because:

(A) Allen wasn't Zodiac
(B) Allen wasn't the ONLY Zodiac


Love,

The Adversary

By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (ac9ebc8a.ipt.aol.com - 172.158.188.138) on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 09:24 pm:

My estimate of the amount of time I've spent with Pam is 75 hours. Isn't that enough?
Pam's sister, Linda, told me Allen was the man bothering Darlene. After seeing Allen's 1967 picture, she sent me an e-mail thanking me for solving the case and "ending it."

So far, Johns has identified Kane, Bruce Davis and Robert Hunter as being her kidnapper. 'Nuff said.

I've tried communicating with Sandy about her experiences, but I must have a hearing problem. Obviously, you haven't figured her story out either since we are all waiting on you to translate.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 09:18 am:

Tom, the person at V.P.D. was either the Capt. or the Chief, his name was Conroy or Conway. And yes I still have the pictures I took. I thought I sent one to you a few years ago, along with a copy of the note in z like printing that was left for me? I still have your address, and will if you like send it again. Being I took it in a public place, you could post it with out any repercussions. I would like to find out for sure if in fact this guy is Kane, or someone none of us have heard of! I sent one to Jake about the same time.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 09:42 am:

Chrissy, The costume that was in my car,was never turned over to the police . I thought it was just a costume for Halloween. I kept the cotton cloth for many years, it has sense disappeared,along with the ammo can.Everything else was given To Jim Deasey at S.F.P.D in Jan.90. It wasn't until I read Graysmiths book,and saw the L.B. drawing that I felt for sure what I saw in 69 could of been the costume, I didn't think the police in Vallejo would believe anything I would have to say if I told them that. So I didn't tell them until about a year ago. The response was just what I expected,nothing. Except when I said the bottom of the bag had small tares, the officer said: So it would rest on his shoulders? You know they are trained not to show any emotion, so who knows what they thought for sure?

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 10:20 am:

Edward, everything that I have given to the police has been misplaced, or lost. The smoking gun is in a safety deposit box,and will be turned over to the only people I have any confidence in, the FBI ! The book is not covered with blood, it has only a few spots on it that look like blood. Who ever the person was that asked me to name the police I have spoken to,I have been to VPD many times, each time I saw someone new. SFPD, I saw Jim Deasy about 4 times, and spoke to him by phone many times. I spoke to Teliscedie at SFPD by phone.I went to Fairfield pd. At Napa Pd, I spoke to Bill White Jr. once, and by phone a few times. Antioch Pd.Dectives Conklin,Rezentes,Burgerhouse, were the main ones who worked my case.It is still on going as far as I know.It is very hard to talk about this to people who haven't delt with someone like z and have them understand the case.I believe z ment for it to be complicated,and it is!

By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (csd137.bvi3.cos.pcisys.net - 207.204.7.137) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 03:02 pm:

TOM:
My estimate of the amount of time I've spent with Pam is 75 hours. Isn't that enough?

BRUCE:
Evidently not, but we can always hope...

TOM:
Pam's sister, Linda, told me Allen was the man bothering Darlene. After seeing Allen's 1967 picture, she sent me an e-mail thanking me for solving the case and "ending it."

BRUCE:
That's interesting, Tom. How much time have you spent talking with Linda? Did she also tell the police that "Allen" was the man? Was she shown any other photos of other possible suspects? I'm not knocking you here, I'm just wondering about the details.

It seems, according to Howard, that Darlene's younger sister, Christina, mentioned someone different still:

Quote from Howard, January 16, 2001

ed. note: Howard does mention that there is no firm evidence that Darlene knew her killer, but...]

"I should be the first to affirm Darlene knew her killer, as I have testimony from Christina (whom I and det. John Smith interviewed on Jan. 1st 2 years ago), Darlene's younger sister and the last in the family to see Darlene alive (about 45 mins +) that the man she saw "arguing" with Darlene looked exactly like Bruce Davis and that she had seen the same man in the daytime on at least 2 occasions. She saw Darlene talk to this man also."

BRUCE:
Did you also talk with Christina, Tom? If so, what did she say?

I think it would be very interesting if we had any and all official statements from all three: Pam, Linda and Christina for side-by-side comparison to see what aspects they agree or disagree on; and where there are disagreements or disparities, who's story would change in a group setting interview with all of them present?

Bruce Monson

By Gomper (Gomper) (slip-32-103-46-3.al.us.prserv.net - 32.103.46.3) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 06:27 pm:

I second that motion, Bruce.

By The Giant (Bryan) (144.141.27.172) on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 12:19 pm:

Ya know its real hard to keep up with the facts when people go off on a tangent. So I will say this:
Its Tom's Website. Its not yours so why argue about the simple namby pamby bullshi# and post real messages that the rest of us want to read.
Bryan

By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (mail.ci.colospgs.co.us - 204.131.210.1) on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 01:22 pm:

Well, Bryan, why don't you start us off with one of these "real messages" that contain "facts"? Are you really suggesting that Darlene Ferrin's sisters would not have anything "factual" to say?

That you would even say something so insensitive and ignorant as "namby pamby bullshi#" (an obvious reference to Pam, and typical of the ad hominem attacks we've become accustomed to seeing around here), tells us much more about you than Pam or anyone else.

Bruce Monson

By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (mail.ci.colospgs.co.us - 204.131.210.1) on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 01:26 pm:

BTW, Tom, were you going to share the information I requested in my earlier post on this thread (re: what all "Linda" had to say, and whether or not you have spoken with the other sister, "Christina")?

Bruce Monson

By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (aca549a3.ipt.aol.com - 172.165.73.163) on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 02:52 pm:

I already posted what Linda said.
I haven't spoken with Christina.

By Jake Wark (Jake) (spider-wg043.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.196.38) on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 03:14 pm:

I got some email from Johanna (another sister) two years ago, and I still haven't figured it out.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (mail.ci.colospgs.co.us - 204.131.210.1) on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 06:21 pm:

Geez, how many sisters are there? Any brothers?

What did Johanna say, Jake?

By Gomper (Gomper) (slip-32-103-46-21.al.us.prserv.net - 32.103.46.21) on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 06:35 pm:

Hey, Bryan, if someone feels he has a relevant question, why shouldn't he post it? No one's forcing you to read stuff you disagree with.

Gomper

By Jake Wark (Jake) (spider-wi013.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.197.23) on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 06:47 am:

Bruce wrote:
"Geez, how many sisters are there? Any brothers?"

Darlene had four sisters, I think, and one brother.

"What did Johanna say, Jake?"

It beats me, but whatever it was she felt very strongly about it.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By The Giant (Bryan) (144.141.27.172) on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 11:43 am:

Bruce your only here to flame.

By The Giant (Bryan) (144.141.27.172) on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 11:58 am:

Gomper,
if someone feels he has a relevant question, why shouldn't he post it? No one's forcing you to read stuff you disagree with.

"Mine"
and post real messages that the rest of us want to read.

I could go on and on but then I would be just as guilty taking up space with dribble

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 11:58 am:

Bruce, I think 5 girls and one boy, is what I was told. Most of the siblings are not as interested in this case as Pam is,I was told that by Pam.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 12:09 pm:

Realtor,What are you referring to, in regards to, I am going by the book ?

By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (csd130.bvi3.cos.pcisys.net - 207.204.7.130) on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 01:34 pm:

THE GIANT:
Bruce your only here to flame.

BRUCE:
Conjecture is unbecoming, Bryan, particularly from someone who posts insults without offering any evidence to back it up. If you think I'm "flam[ing]" anyone then I suggest you provide examples where this is the case. Please understand that challenging evidence is not flaming or even hateful. What is flaming is the posting of insensitive and useless rhetoric like you posted above: "namby pamby bullshi#" Do you see the difference? This is something that Tom has a habit of doing as well when he gets challenged and frankly I don't have a problem bringing that fact to his attention, just as I don't have a problem bringing it to your attention here.

I have been around these discussions since the boards started popping up over three years ago and I have invested a lot of time and thought in the process. I have learned a lot in the process. I have been wrong about things in the past and I am more than ready to admit as much on anything else in the future, but I will not be intimidated by the bullying attitudes of certain individuals who are married to their presuppositions, and utilize subjective accusation and inuendo as a means to a desired end.

So, Bryan, if you have a bone to pick with me then by all means present it, but you'd better have the evidence in hand.

Regards,

Bruce Monson

By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (csd130.bvi3.cos.pcisys.net - 207.204.7.130) on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 01:41 pm:

Sandy,

Five! Wow. Actually, the fact that the other sisters (and brother) are not as interested as Pam could be a good thing. I wonder if they might still be interested in filling out a questionaire individually so that their answers to certain questions could be compared. It has the potential for getting to the bottom of a lot of questions, particularly in regard to "credibility" problems that Pam has been labeled as having by several people on this list. Maybe it would help and maybe it wouldn't, but what have we got to lose, another 30 years?

Regards,

Bruce Monson

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-tm062.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.197.72) on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 03:09 pm:

Bruce, have you managed to wrangle a coherent linear narrative out of Sandy's tale yet, or should we all just wait a few more months?

By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (csd130.bvi3.cos.pcisys.net - 207.204.7.130) on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 07:41 pm:

Alan,

I have been taking commentary Sandy has posted here on the message board and copying it into MSWord files under particular headings I have setup with a view to giving a format for Sandy follow. Basically, I am putting things into a time sequenced order (that I can determine) and adding my own questions on certain obscurities that I feel Sandy should answer. Once I have completed this I will send the files to Sandy (soon) and have her go through them and follow the format I have outlined for her. When she finishes that she will send the files back to me and I will make a comprehensive categorized sequence of events which will, hopefully, separate fact from circumstantial evidence from sheer speculation; or as you would say, "separate the signal from the noise."

I don't pretend that this is going to be a speedy process, particularly with all of my other projects (and whatever Sandy's schedule looks like), but I am working on it and when it's completed I will post it for peer review. No doubt there will be many questions and probably some mistakes that will need to be identified and corrected, but at least we will have a base to work from.

If it all leads us to something substantial in the "Z" direction, great; if not, well, at least we'll be able to say it was properly addressed.

Regards,

Bruce Monson

By Bryan (The_Giant) (144.141.27.172) on Friday, February 16, 2001 - 12:28 pm:

Bruce, Flame on
Please ref. The following posts

Where are the facts?
By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (csd132.bvi3.cos.pcisys.net - 207.204.7.132) on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 09:07 pm:


Where are the facts?
By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (csd137.bvi3.cos.pcisys.net - 207.204.7.137) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 03:02 pm:

Why the attack on me? Where are the facts? Where did I ref. Pam or Darlene?
By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (mail.ci.colospgs.co.us - 204.131.210.1) on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 01:22 pm:
If I would have used Namby Bamby bullshi# I think you would have flamed me for have something about Disney.
Now this is my opinion only.
Your are a 14 year old trying to act as a grownup. The only reason you are here. You don’t get to argue with your brothers or sisters. You are either, the baby (CRYBABY) or the middle child. Try Yahoo games they have a chat area where any arguments make sense. Lets take a vote? How many people would like to see what Bruce has to say?
Or should I not post?
Bryan

By Alan Cabal (Alan) (spider-ta012.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.205.47) on Friday, February 16, 2001 - 01:31 pm:

You should definitely acquire a copy of Strunk & White's ELEMENTS OF STYLE and start using a spellchecker, that much is certain.

By Bryan (The_Giant) (144.141.27.172) on Friday, February 23, 2001 - 06:36 am:

Alan,
Try reading your posts. And then take your own advise.
Bryan

By Alan Cabal (Alan) (spider-tp083.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.204.213) on Friday, February 23, 2001 - 10:54 am:

Point taken, Bryan.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Friday, March 02, 2001 - 06:50 pm:

I have just sent some information to Howard, along with a large picture of the man I have been told is Kane. Its a close up of the right side of his face, the side Kathleen saw. In this picture you can see a circle scar on his cheek with a cross in side of it. On his chin he has a scar the shape of a Z,that Kathleen thought were two scars. The scars she described along his jawline are there as well. This picture is the only picture known of him wearing glasses!None of his DMV pictures show glasses.Look up vain in the Dictionary, and you will see his picture!

By Oddball (Oddball) (slip-32-103-46-95.al.us.prserv.net - 32.103.46.95) on Saturday, March 17, 2001 - 07:18 am:

Just wondering if any progress has been made in organizing Sandy's story...Sandy? Bruce?

By J Beverid (Jbeverid) (sigrund.rugs.indiana.edu - 129.79.166.189) on Monday, March 26, 2001 - 12:48 pm:

SANDY--

I don't mean to downplay your fear of this stranger you say is stalking you, but if it really WERE Larry Kane, this guys is 77 years old! That's older than my grandfather! I doubt the guy can even HOLD a weapon much less use one.

By Ed N (Ed_N) (spider-ntc-tc043.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.17.38) on Monday, March 26, 2001 - 06:40 pm:

J: Kane would be, according to one source, 79 in a few weeks; however, since he apparently has two driver's licenses sporting two different dates of birth, one knows that one of them is obviously false, and one might assume that perhaps both are. In which case, perhaps he really isn't as old as that? Maybe he's really 10-15 years younger, who knows? In any case, he ain't no spring chicken anymore, but that doesn't make him less dangerous. Remember that little old lady who murdered her boarders so she could steal and cash their social security checks?

By Oscar (Oscar) (pool0074.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net - 209.178.188.74) on Tuesday, March 27, 2001 - 04:16 am:

Ed,
Listen, stop defending the old coots, you octogenarian pervert...LOL You are right in saying that any person can be dangerous, even an old man (hey, look at yourself for example).
Sandy,
Who is to say that the scar is not recent? How can you be sure the scar was there when Z allegedly abducted Johns? Johns is not the most credible witness, and I don't care what kind of revisionist games you want to play with her track record. She has been spotty and unreliable in the past, and I for one do not attach much significance to her testimony. And the idea that Z might walk around with a scar that resembled his symbol is...well...it does kill my willingness to suspend my disbelief. Why not just get branded or get a tattoo? How well would Johns remeber what happened oh so long ago? Did she wear glasses at the time? It was dark outside, yes? Hmmm.
Oscar
p.s. I have a birthmark that looks like Tricky Dick Nixon!

By Ed N (Ed_N) (spider-mtc-te043.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.103.168) on Tuesday, March 27, 2001 - 10:48 am:

One of the things I've suggested before about the man who abducted Kathleen Johns and her daughter is that perhaps he was a Z-lookalike. Everyone and their grandma seemed to resemble Z back in the day. Maybe it was really Peter O...

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Saturday, April 14, 2001 - 11:46 am:

Ed, Did they all have the same odd voice also? The dark wool navy pants and the shiny shoes,scars along the jawline as well as on his chin? Ed you have seen the picture of my suspect,he just happens to have those same scares Kathleen described. I have voice tapes he has left on my recorder,it has the odd voice from 2001 space odyssey. The drawl Bryan Hartnell said the killer had is also in the odd sounding voice. I tried to send a post last night,but I see it didn't make it. So I am not sure if this one will or not.I believe Kathleen is telling the truth, too many people have ID Kane, for him not to be involved in these crimes, will surprise the people who saw him bothering Darlene and Donna Lass, and taking Dana Lull in Las Vegas from her boy friends car. Her body was found later with a 22 cal.in her head. Maybe he hated girls with names that started with D?

By Sharkey (Sharkey) (1cust234.tnt5.topeka.ks.da.uu.net - 63.15.252.234) on Saturday, April 14, 2001 - 02:17 pm:

Sandy, do you happen to know Kanes middle name? A middle initial would work, but the full name would be even better.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Saturday, April 14, 2001 - 05:45 pm:

Sharky, check your mail, I gave you all the names and his mid.in. which he used V. Harvey Hines gave me a (M) for the mid. in. When I looked in the city directory the name was Lawrence V Cave in 67-68 and L. V. Cave in 69. this was just one of the names he used. He also used Cane , Kane, Barton, Williams. The first name sometimes was Steven, he would change the spelling of Lawrence to Laurence. His fathers first name started with a M. mid. in. H. so maybe his sons real mid. in. is M ? Of "all" the suspects,Ed came up with it solved as Lawernce V. Cave! That would of been the name he was listed as, when Zodiac gave the clue to his name. His birth name is none of the above, no wonder he was so smug when he gave us his phony clue.

By Aubrey Jackson (Aubrey) (spider-mtc-tg044.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.102.169) on Friday, April 20, 2001 - 09:22 am:

Does anyone know if Hartnell, Mageau, or Johns have had the chance to listen to a recording of Kane's voice? And, Sandy, where did you read that Johns described those facial scars?

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 11:14 pm:

Aubrey, K.J. gave one of the descriptions on page 317 in the Graysmith book. When the man came into my work on Jan19th 88,he had on the dark wool pants and the shiny shoes that reflected the lighted candles on the table that he sat at. I thought I was becoming paranoid from reading the book that day! I looked at his face when I took his order, to see if by chance he had the scars, he did. I noticed a L shaped one on the left side of his cheek.My thought was it looked like a scratch, on the right side the side K.J. would have had a long look at, I saw acne looking scars or chicken pox scars. I noticed a round one the size of a nickel and about as deep, also on the right side. He had powder all over his hands , face, and shaved head. His teeth were crooked ,stained brown and yellow( he chain smokes.)His voice when he spoke to me was like he was reading real slow and flat. His eyes are hazel and dead looking. His hands shake a lot. I was told about the other scars on his chin, but didn't notice them until I took a picture of him and looked with a magnifying glass! his face isn't as round as it was back in the 60s,when I first saw him. About the zodiac having a lazy eye , I found out from D.O.J.in Sac.before I noticed it for myself.How they knew I don't know. At that time I didn't know his name , I called him RH because of a lic. plate that came back to R.H. (not Hunter)

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Saturday, April 28, 2001 - 09:09 pm:

Aubrey, I don't think they have heard his voice. Tom said he heard it, but when he discribed it, It didn't sound like he had talked to the right person. Tom said he had a southern accent,one of the people who is somehow envolved with Kane is a cowboy looking guy, I saw only once, and spoke to him, he had a twang. Kane doe's not have a southern drawl,he has a very slight N.Y. accent. He speaks with a lisp.And talks out of the side of his mouth. His voice is just like Hal's from 2001 space movie. Very monotone!!!

By Aubrey Jackson (Aubrey) (63.96.94.103) on Tuesday, May 01, 2001 - 07:09 am:

Sandy - interesting. Maybe you could send a copy of your tape recording to Mageau (or have Pam deliver it to him), Johns and Hartnell. Just a thought. As we all know, memories can be misleading, but it just might turn up something interesting. (haven't seen the video yet, but I didn't see any mention of Kane being on it in the video section of the website, right?)

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Tuesday, May 01, 2001 - 11:20 pm:

Pam is too ill to be running around. She also has a recording of the man claiming to be Z. It is the same voice I have. I have heard that Hartnell no longer has any interest in the Zodiac case. Mageau never heard z's voice as far as I know. Johns would be the one to hear it. I knew where she was at one time, that's how Harvey found her. I could give a copy to Howard, and he could take it to Kathleen. I don't think Kane is on Tom's tape, or Ed would have told me. Kane's picture was on Americas Most Wanted Web site. Did you know someone claiming to be Z, has been sending threats to John Walsh in blood? It would be interesting to check out that DNA for a match on the envelopes.

By Aubrey Jackson (Aubrey) (149.123.136.116) on Wednesday, May 02, 2001 - 08:25 am:

I'm that everyone here wishes Pam a speedy recovery. All the best, Pam!

I visited the America's Most Wanted website but only found a brief rundown of the case. That was december of 1998's episode. Where on the site is this photo of Kane? I'd like to see it. Too bad if Hartnell is no longer interested, but maybe he could be persuaded to listen, as his opinion probably carries the most weight... It would be great to hear what Kathleen has to say about it. Does anyone here know if Mageau actually heard Z say anything?

Has this man actually told you that he is Zodiac? Or has he just made threats and references? Please elaborate.

I'm sure that Walsh gets plenty of that kind of stuff, but he's a tough old s.o.b.

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Thursday, May 03, 2001 - 10:15 pm:

Aubrey ,He never told me he is the z , but he has left notes in z like printing. The phone calls I have received are from a man who sounds like a computer talking . In Jan 90 a man with the very same voice spoke to me. He had shaved off all his hair, I could see the scars on his face.a few months later he came in it was Easter weekend. He watched me as I spoke to a pretty young girl, it became a glare! He left right after the girl did, that girl was found dead the next day!! A week or so later someone had folded up newspaper clippings about the girs death, and put it on my cocktail tray! The next thing that was left for me was a quarter from 68, with the z logo on one side and the number nine on the other side.In Aug. of 90 I was ready for him with a camera. I knew timing was everything to this guy, he had come in to Lyons restaurant at 6:30pm the Friday before . So the next Friday I waited for him , 6:30 sharp he walked in, and I took his picture.He did not like it , he then walked up behind me so close, I could feel his body heat.I think he wanted to grab the camera. If he did that, it would draw too much attention to him. I had a big guy with me for protection. The next picture we took of the man he took off his glasses. I have been told that even DMV hasn't had a picture of him with glasses on. The next day on my recorder was that same voice saying X2 X2 X2 , then I heard a beep---beep --- beep and then a flat line sound, and a very scary laugh. With a full head of hair he looked like a different man. When I developed the pictures and looked up close, the man had the same scars in the same places as the man with the shaved head.The same voice I heard at Pams home on her recorder, she said he mostly tells her that this is the Zodiac. He is the same man who followed me in the 60s in Vallejo and Napa. And more than likely was the man in 69 who left a blackened paper hood and a black cloth with a Z logo in the back seat of my brown car!He also left behind a ammo can filled with felt tip pens, mostly dark in color.A dictionary with some spots of black looking ink and a few spots like blood! How about someone doing some DNA on that book? I'll bet if it is blood, it belongs to Hartnell and or Shepards. Don't worry it was put away in a safe place years ago.Everything else was misplaced at SFPD. Sorry about using up so much space Tom.I still have left out soooo much!

By Aubrey Jackson (Aubrey) (mtv-proxy-2.viacom.com - 166.77.209.198) on Friday, May 04, 2001 - 09:16 am:

Sandy, did this all take place in Vallejo? This guy sure sounds evil. Can you tell us anything more about this murdered girl, so that we could look into it (her name, date/place of disappearance)? Maybe some copies of those news clippings? Has anyone looked at his handwriting and done comparisons? Is this the guy you refer to as Kane, or is this RH? Is it his picture on the America's Most Wanted website? (by the way, I'd really like to see that picture, but can't find it on the web- any tips?)
By the way, are you guys making any progress on putting your complete story together?

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Sunday, May 06, 2001 - 04:03 pm:

Aubrey, It started in Vallejo in 68, but has gone with me to C.C.County, and the bay area. As far as the girl who was killed,her body was found the Monday just after Easter weekend in April 1988. Her name was Victoria Bell,she looked about 5ft 4in 120#. She wore a pink blouse,black skirt, and black high heals. The police didn't know who she was at first. The Oakland Tribune on that Monday or Tuesday had it titled Two Unidentified Body's found (I believe that was the way it was.) The other woman was a jogger on Skyline Blvd. in Oakland. I haven't heard anything on the progress of getting the story completed,the virus I was sent, I am told, was sent to everyone on my mailing list! Maybe he didn't think it was worth crashing his computer, I wouldn't blame him. The handwriting was given to the D.A. I was dating, he gave it to his expert. I was told it was too much like the Zodiacs to be his!! And we wonder why he is not caught?

By Jena (Jena) (spider-ntc-td014.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.17.154) on Friday, May 11, 2001 - 09:25 pm:

Sandy how interesting ! I wonder if your bloody book was with the book I'm holding onto for future needs . I also found in my favorite suspects belongings a blood splattered book with a piece of bloody matter. DNA someday maybe would be great! Let's put are heads together sandy! Jena

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 08:22 am:

Jena, What is the name of the book you have? And when did you get it? I hope you didn't thumb through it, the finger prints inside the book would help. Bloody matter,what do you think it was?

By Spencer (Spencer) (ac87dae0.ipt.aol.com - 172.135.218.224) on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 10:04 pm:

Easter was Sunday, April 3 in 1988.
According to the state of California's death records (http://vitals.rootsweb.com/ca/death/search.cgi), one Victoria Sue Bell, born 08/08/1953, died 04/03/1988 in Alameda County, California. FYI, her mother's maiden name was McCarthy and her father's last was Ward.

In all likelihood, this would be the Victoria Bell to whom Sandy refers (as no one else with that name died in California in 1988).

Spencer

By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 24.176.152.45) on Sunday, May 20, 2001 - 01:12 pm:

Thanks Spencer! April fool's day was that Friday, and good Friday. I had predicted 3 girls would be killed that weekend, one for each Holiday that weekend. The man they call kane was coming into my job almost every day. I thought for sure I would be one of them, I kept my gun close by.I even asked a friend for a CB, so I could stay in touch with help, as I drove the 47 mi. home.

By Jena (Jena) (spider-ntc-td023.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.17.158) on Thursday, May 24, 2001 - 03:20 pm:

Sandy ,
The book is in my storage safe and sound along with other books & belongings of my suspect. So of the top of my head i'm 98% certain the bloody book was a book titled "Rhetoric" (the effective use of language ). Would love to know what your books are of? Jena

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (ptlddslgw5poold162.ptld.uswest.net - 63.229.135.162) on Thursday, May 24, 2001 - 03:37 pm:

If you are specifically interested in Sandy, please e-mail her instead of wasting space here.