Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Other Suspects: Ted Kaczynski

Linda wanted me to state my reasons for Kaczynski not being as good a suspect as Allen and I'll do that here instead of ALA's section. (And at the risk of incurring the wrath of Rusconi and Orswell).

First a quote, written by Ted in one of his diaries:

"Women are gentle, nice, pleasant to be with, they represent joy, family, life, love, and, of course, sex."

Zodiac hated women. They were nothing more than abstract objects of his rage. He killed them. Viciously. John Douglas has said that he thinks Zodiac would have kept a diary as well. Does the quote above sound like something he would have written in it?

Ted (according to Orswell and Rusconi and Ted's relatives) was thought to have left the Bay Area and been living with his parents in Lombard, Illinois, before Stine was killed. Did he come back to kill Stine? Or was he still there? We don't know. In other words, Ted cannot be placed in the area at that time. His whereabouts are unknown. Allen was living in Vallejo. We can place him there. Ted we can't.

Ted supposedly hung around with his brother also, going up to Montana to look for land to buy either during or shortly after the murders, and would have had to return to SFO to mail certain letters. His brother was the one who turned him in for the Unibomber crimes. Did he turn his back on the Zodiac murders because he was involved or had knowledge of them? Don't think so.

Ted had a grudge against everything corporate. I believe that's one of the reasons he had a problem teaching. (Maybe he felt he was part of the problem). But out on Lake Herman road, a perfect target would have been the SVAR machine that was eating entire mountains, not a pair of teenagers necking. Ted was interested in stopping the paving of paradise. Not stocking it with slaves.

True, Ted's handwriting looks very similar to Zodiac's. So does Allen's. So do others.

Douglas will undoubtedly disagree with this, but the main reason I don't think Ted could be the Zodiac is that he was cleared by the FBI. (And before you go yelling at me Douglas, Tom stated it on this site as well). If they could have solved the Zodiac murders and the Unibomber in one fell swoop, don't you think they would have done that? Are they holding back evidence? Is it all just a big conspiracy?

Look, I'm not saying TED IS NOT THE ZODIAC! But Ted is a serial bomber who got pissed off at society for the way it mistreated the earth and sought to enact justice for precieved wrongs. To some of the WTO protesters he's even considered a hero. He may even have some sexual hang-ups (he did alledgedly seek a sex change). But I just don't see a valid connection between him and the Zodiac murders. This case has so many theories, they can't all be right.

I think it was Bill B who first mentioned Occam's Razor. I think it applies to Unibomber, just as much as it does to the Zodiac.

Well said.

Linda wanted me to state my reasons for Kaczynski not being as good a suspect as Allen and I'll do that here instead of ALA's section. (And at the risk of incurring the wrath of Rusconi and Orswell).

Well, if you persist in calling me "Orswell" as opposed to "Oswell" I might get a little peeved!

First a quote, written by Ted in one of his diaries:

"Women are gentle, nice, pleasant to be with, they represent joy, family, life, love, and, of course, sex."

Zodiac hated women. They were nothing more than abstract objects of his rage. He killed them. Viciously. John Douglas has said that he thinks Zodiac would have kept a diary as well. Does the quote above sound like something he would have written in it?

He was a mass of contradictions as indicated by his journal and diary entries. On the one hand he admitted to loving his mother; on the other hand he viciously condemned her for having (in his eyes) caused the social maladjustment that led to his inability to find female companionship. That, however, is beside the point. If Zodiac hated women it was because he couldn't get them, and I think the notion of people hating what they can't get for themselves is so axiomatic that it hardly needs explaining. If he hadn't loved, admired, or desired women then they wouldn't have had the effect of igniting his rage against them.

Because of his social pathology, Kaczynski had failed in the areas of life in which all of his loved ones (his mother particularly) had expected him to succeed. It's no wonder then, that his wrath as the Unabomber were directed against people who were prominent and successful in fields of endeavor where Kaczynski might have made a name for himself, but failed.

Ted (according to Orswell and Rusconi and Ted's relatives) was thought to have left the Bay Area and been living with his parents in Lombard, Illinois, before Stine was killed. Did he come back to kill Stine? Or was he still there? We don't know. In other words, Ted cannot be placed in the area at that time. His whereabouts are unknown. Allen was living in Vallejo. We can place him there. Ted we can't.

No one knows precisely Ted's activities once he returned to Lombard. What we do know is that for the two years he lived there he continually disappeared without accounting for his whereabouts. On two of those occasions corresponding with Zodiac events (spring-summer, 1970 and winter/spring, 1971) Ted got into his car and drove out to the west coast. I think it speaks far more clearly for the validity of a suspect that he travels thousands of miles out of his way to be in the proper location for a particular event at the right time than if he happens (like Allen and many others) to be domiciled in the area.

Ted supposedly hung around with his brother also, going up to Montana to look for land to buy either during or shortly after the murders, and would have had to return to SFO to mail certain letters. His brother was the one who turned him in for the Unibomber crimes. Did he turn his back on the Zodiac murders because he was involved or had knowledge of them? Don't think so.

There's no reason to postulate that David Kaczynski needed to have any particular knowledge of the Zodiac crimes. It may interest you to know, however, that there is a very good case to be made that he knew full well about the Unabomber crimes yet never acted. It was his wife whose suspicions led him to approach the FBI, and he did so upon the caveat that his identity would never be made public.

Ted had a grudge against everything corporate. I believe that's one of the reasons he had a problem teaching. (Maybe he felt he was part of the problem). But out on Lake Herman road, a perfect target would have been the SVAR machine that was eating entire mountains, not a pair of teenagers necking. Ted was interested in stopping the paving of paradise. Not stocking it with slaves.

Ted's "grudge" against technology wasn't one that sprang up overnight, but metamorphosed, probably as a convenient excuse for his failures as an individual. From 1966 (when he sought the sex-change operation) through the end of his Berkeley days, when he "advertised in the newspapers for a woman," Ted's chief problems were sexual. By the end of 1969 he had resolved to relieve his frustrations by getting away from society completely. For about six years this tactic worked, and Ted lived in relative peace. But when technology finally began to encroach in his wilderness paradise, Ted's hostility became aroused once more and caused him to lash out with his bombing campaign.

It's not too difficult to envision how Ted's affairs might have played out had he been Zodiac. Sexual frustration, coupled with envy (and the knowledge that he would be leaving society forever) led to the Zodiac crimes. Later, beginning in 1971, the years of isolation and hard effort in Montana would have quelled the simmering anger over his social inadequacies, reconciling him to his frustrated libido. By 1978 a new set of demons had arisen. Since he could not transcend his angry and vengeful personality he would have struck out at them exactly as he had in the late sixties, when the devils were of a different nature.

Douglas will undoubtedly disagree with this, but the main reason I don't think Ted could be the Zodiac is that he was cleared by the FBI. (And before you go yelling at me Douglas, Tom stated it on this site as well). If they could have solved the Zodiac murders and the Unibomber in one fell swoop, don't you think they would have done that? Are they holding back evidence? Is it all just a big conspiracy?

I'm not a conspiracy theorist. The FBI would no doubt have loved to solve both cases (and take the credit for it) but unfortunately they had no evidence. What kind of evidence would it have required? Probably documentary evidence, of the kind that got the Unabomber convicted. Since Kaczynski kept numerous documents incriminating himself as the Unabomber, we have to ask ourselves why such documents weren't found that pertained to the Zodiac case.

The answer lies in the foreword to Kaczynski's first set of journal records, begun in 1978. In that foreword, Kaczynski stated that the purpose of the journals was to prove to the world that he was not "sick," i.e., that his actions were the result of hard logic and not those of a psycho. This tells us a couple of important things. First, it informs us that the journals (remember, begun in 1978) were intended for public, not private consumption, and therefore cannot be deemed free of "slant" and propaganda. Second, it tells us that Kaczynski is determined that the labels customarily applied to criminals (i.e., "sicko," "psycho," etc.) shall not be applied to him.

Every one of us can recall episodes in his youth in which a hot head, passion, anger and other emotions have led him to commit acts of which, as older persons, he is not proud. If Kaczynski did indeed commit the Zodiac crimes, there is little doubt that a person of his sensibilities could not have been pleased with the results. As Zodiac, his legacy was that of a "sicko," a madman, a psychotic; even a homosexually-oriented sexual sadist. This would not have constituted a part of his past that he would have been proud of upon later, more rational consideration. Therefore, there is no reason to suppose that he would have kept documentation relating to those activities, supposing that it existed.

Look, I'm not saying TED IS NOT THE ZODIAC! But Ted is a serial bomber who got pissed off at society for the way it mistreated the earth and sought to enact justice for precieved wrongs. To some of the WTO protesters he's even considered a hero. He may even have some sexual hang-ups (he did alledgedly seek a sex change). But I just don't see a valid connection between him and the Zodiac murders. This case has so many theories, they can't all be right.

I think it was Bill B who first mentioned Occam's Razor. I think it applies to Unibomber, just as much as it does to the Zodiac.

True, and you'll notice (or at least I hope it's been noticed!) that I've tried as hard as possible to keep wild speculation out of my theory. I'm not here braying out in an obnoxious voice that Kaczynski just has to be the Zodiac killer, but rather, there exist numerous circumstances that make him a likely suspect. That's the sum of it.

The Unabomber-Zodiac Connection

You bring up excellent points (after all, you wrote the book) but time only permits me an occasional foray into the arena for a response so first off let me apologize for "Orswell," darn my eyes. (And these profanity filters) You have never brayed any of your ideas and my conspiracy snipe was not directed at you.

That said, let's take your first couple of points.

First, you seem to imply Ted kept journals prior to 1978. Zodiac most certainly (probably) did. If that is the case, you need not present a shred of evidence regarding those journals, as your theory seems to be that Ted had somehow overcome his desire to kill couples, destroyed the books he had written about it in, and focused a newfound desire into another motivation altogether, equally murderous, but which would somehow exonerate him from his past. He destroyed them (if they even ever existed) and started new ones aimed at eradicating what he had done and show that he was sane (and therefore had learned to direct his anger into something he felt would make a positive change.) That transition from serial killer to serial bomber is what bothers me. True, they are both very similar. But it is the leap between motivation I have a problem with. Did killing couples no longer get Zodiac/Ted off? I personally don't think Zodiac's pathology could have been that easily dismissed. It sounds like he "took the cure" when he went up north to his self-imposed exile from society and flipped a switch that somehow changed his motivation from sexual to political. It's a stretch for me.

Second, how do we know where Ted drove in spring/summer 1970 or winter/spring 1971? And if he did come, where did he stay for that period of time? What about the badlands, exorcist, and red phantom letters? They weren't received until 1974. Do we know that Ted came back for those as well?

Your theory seems to be that (for Ted) Zodiac became some sort of straw dog he had created, and he changed his motivation from collecting slaves into something he felt would benefit the earth.

More later,

Edward.

That transition from serial killer to serial bomber is what bothers me. True, they are both very similar. But it is the leap between motivation I have a problem with. Did killing couples no longer get Zodiac/Ted off? I personally don't think Zodiac's pathology could have been that easily dismissed. It sounds like he "took the cure" when he went up north to his self-imposed exile from society and flipped a switch that somehow changed his motivation from sexual to political. It's a stretch for me.

I think that a big mistake is made in assuming that Zodiac's personality conformed to what we usually think of as a "serial killer." The primary sense in which Zodiac fit that description lies in the fact that he committed a "series" of murders. But if we compare his signature what that of killers with whom we usually associate the term it can be easily seen that there is really a vast difference between Zodiac and the classical serial killers such as Bundy, Gacy and their ilk. These are the "sexual sadists," who kill for sexual stimulation and whose sexuality takes the form of overt acts of possession and sadism upon their victims. To these individuals, murder is never employed as a means of making a statement, but rather, serves as a perverse form of sexual enjoyment. Murder and sadism become so entwined within their sexuality that to cease murdering is to deny themselves their means of sexual expression; hence they tend to continue murdering until libido wears down or excessive risk-taking leads to their eventual capture.

Zodiac manifested none of those tendencies. The fact that he chose a particular class of victim and simply assaulted those victims without any of the classical signs of the sociopathic murderer seems to indicate that his primary motivation was anger, and the desire to make a statement; symptoms that are more reminiscent of the mass murderer than his cousin the sociopath. As such, there's no reason to think that he possessed the compulsive need to kill that is the hallmark of what we usually call a "serial killer." The consensus appears to be that he stopped killing after October, 1969. And that's perfectly logical if Zodiac had been Kaczynski. By deliberately removing himself from the life that had driven him to anger, he effectively quenched its source. By 1978 a new source of anger had arisen in the form of encroaching technology--not in a general sense, of technology "taking over the world," but in the sense that it was now moving in on Ted's personal little Utopia.

Second, how do we know where Ted drove in spring/summer 1970 or winter/spring 1971? And if he did come, where did he stay for that period of time? What about the badlands, exorcist, and red phantom letters? They weren't received until 1974. Do we know that Ted came back for those as well?

The Sally Johson Psychiatric Report indicates that Ted spent the summer of 1970 looking for land in Alaska (his brother had already relocated to Montana, and I'm hoping to find evidence that Ted accompanied him on his move). In a Washington Post article of 1996, Wanda Kaczynski indicated that Ted left home in the winter of 1971, following the rejection of his land application in Canada; in a later People Magazine article David Kaczynski corroborated this and stated that three weeks elapsed between the time Ted left home and his arriving at David's Great Falls apartment in the spring of 1971. We can therefore extrapolate that this move occurred between late winter and early spring, 1971, during which time the "Peek through the Pines" card and "LA Times Letter" were mailed.

In the winter of 1974 (the approximate time of the "Exorcist" letter), Ted wrote his parents a letter stating that he would be away camping for a while, and not to worry if they didn't hear from him. Based on everything I've read, I doubt very seriously that Ted was "camping out" in the middle of a Montana winter. On the other hand, the Sally Johnson Psychological Report shows that Ted spent the winter of 1975 in Oakland, and he seems to have made a habit of wintering in more hospitable climes, supporting himself by doing odd work such as carpentry and house painting for temp agencies. He could just as easily have been in Oakland in 1974, although we lack any evidence to either confirm or deny this. All we know is that he was away from his home. So far as the Badlands and Red Phanton letters are concerned we have no way of knowing whether those letters are genuine.

Your theory seems to be that (for Ted) Zodiac became some sort of straw dog he had created, and he changed his motivation from collecting slaves into something he felt would benefit the earth.

I wouldn't get too carried away with Kaczynski's anti-technology philosophy. Consider this quote from John Douglas in his 1996 book "Unabomber":

The Unabomber-Zodiac Connection

Doug, I've asked you this question before. Why don't you interview him. The Allen proponents can't advance their case because their suspect is dead!
Not to mean any disrespect, but you have to walk your talk. Interview Kazynski. At least that is a start. You may not get the whole truth, but it will be ,at the very least, a feel for what he knows or doesn't know.

We can talk on this Board

'till Kingdom Come and not many people that are really into this case will ever change their mind abut their favorite suspect until something dramatic or definitve happens.
Bruce D.

Ed… Thanks for your getting back with your reasons for not considering Ted as good a suspect as Allen. I was babysitting for my grandchildren for a few days and didn't quite have the time to devote to the message board. I'm glad that Douglas responded to you on each issue. He's done such extensive research and knows both Unabomber and Zodiac so well as to probably be able to quote many phrases without looking them up.

I will try and add a couple of cents worth of my own words, though...

From your response to me:

"First a quote, written by Ted in one of his diaries: "Women are gentle, nice, pleasant to be with, they represent joy, family, life, love, and, of course, sex." Zodiac hated women. They were nothing more than abstract objects of his rage. He killed them. Viciously. John Douglas has
said that he thinks Zodiac would have kept a diary as well. Does the quote above sound like something he would have written in
it?"

There is no doubt that Ted wrote the above as indicated in his diaries. This was probably written by Ted in one of his gentler moments, pondering the thoughts of the Ted that might have been… identifying with the real Ted Kaczynski… as he wanted to be… Not a loner, hermit-type individual filled with anger at the world and more directly as the Unabomber through technology.

However, compare that thought to others in his diary in which (1) when he finally came to the realization that he didn't have to have an excuse but could hate anyone he pleased, without justification [he indicated that this thought came to him in his teenage years one day when he was walking down the street and came across a girl he did not appear to like; (2) when he was spurned a woman by [I believe her name was Ellen Tarmichael] and one evening hid in the back of her vehicle with a knife intending on using it to cut her throat; however, according to his diary, he changed his mind. I KNOW DOUGLAS CAN PROVIDE EXACT QUOTES - probably from memory - I just can't find my copy of the pages of Ted's diary…

*****

"Ted (according to Orswell and Rusconi and Ted's relatives) was thought to have left the Bay Area and been living with his
parents in Lombard, Illinois, before Stine was killed. Did he come back to kill Stine? Or was he still there? We don't know. In
other words, Ted cannot be placed in the area at that time. His whereabouts are unknown. Allen was living in Vallejo. We can place him there. Ted we can't."


You're right - Kaczynski's whereabouts are "unknown" after the school year ended in 1969 and he had resigned…. But neither can he be "proven" to be elsewhere…. As the Unabomber, we know for a FACT that Ted Kaczynski traveled quite far (by bus in many instances) to perpetrate the Unabomber attacks. I don't think we can compare Allen and Kaczynski in this regard and give Allen more credibility for being the Zodiac in this regard alone… We know Allen belonged in this neighborhood and we know Kacyzynski was familiar with this neighborhood - Allen must not have a clean alibi for the dates/times of the Zodiac events and, to date, no definitive and clear-cut alibi has been awarded Kaczynski for these times when he just "could not be placed in the area."

*****

"Ted had a grudge against everything corporate. I believe that's one of the reasons he had a problem teaching. (Maybe he felt he
was part of the problem). But out on Lake Herman road, a perfect target would have been the SVAR machine that was eating entire mountains, not a pair of teenagers necking. Ted was interested in stopping the paving of paradise. Not stocking it with slaves."

Ted's grudge against technology didn't necessarily have to begin with his wanting to destroy or gain revenge on everything corporate. Ted's anger manifested itself as a young teen… In their eagerness to have Ted be the intellectual they saw in him from his early years, his parents encouraged him being placed in higher grades, out of his peer group. Although his intellectual abilities fluorished, he was ridiculed by those of his own age and teased and ridiculed by those whom he shared classes with - he just plain did not fit in anywhere. Kids of his own age probably thought of him as a "geek" genius and they didn't have anything in common with him - and, the older students probably didn't give him the time of day since they had their own peer group to associate with. In the meantime, when those well-known teenage hormones set in, Ted didn't fit in… He was shy, awkward, didn't have much association with girls his own age and, the girls he did know through his classes were too "old" for him and probably looked upon him as a child - certainly not anyone they'd want to date. With Ted's inability to communicate verbally, he held his frustrations in. He ended up in Harvard at the age of 17, again, clearly out of his peer group. According to Ted's diary, he could hear wild goings-on in dormitory rooms next to his (he wrote how disgusting it was to hear girls and guys doing their thing - I don't have the exact quote here either - however, he was clearly angered by their lack of respect for themselves). While at Berkley, as an Assistant Professor, Ted (per his brother, David) even went to the trouble of advertising for a date in a local paper. No further explanation was ever given - whether he did or didn't get responses… but there is no known information on Ted ever dating during these years. THEN, Ted quite unexpectedly, and with no clear explanation, resigned from Berkley effective the end of the school year in 1969. During that summer was when it has been said that Ted and his brother, went looking for land


******

"True, Ted's handwriting looks very similar to Zodiac's. So does Allen's. So do others."

Yes, this is true, too; however, we need to compare many things relating to handwriting with ALL suspects… In Ted's case, we have an outstanding number of writing samples (letters to papers, letters to friends, diaries samples in his own writing, diary samples in code - just to name a few) and taken directly from his writings, we find not only "handwriting - printing" similarities, we find uncommon similarities in "word useage," letter spacing; punctuation; and content. [Remember, too, that the content of the Unabomber's Manifesto is what triggered his capture. The FBI did extensive work in making comparison's to the writings of the Unabomber and known writings of Ted Kaczynski]….

Now, as far as the all the other suspects are concerned (and especially Allen since he is clearly the key suspect in most people's minds), what is the extent of the samples of their known writings and how have they been compared (content, word useage, grammar, etc.) with those of Zodiac?



AGAIN, Ed, thanks for your response and carrying on the conversation regarding Ted Kaczynski as a viable suspect in the Zodiac case.

Linda

Hi Douglas and Linda,

You metioned that John Douglas wrote:

"What did the Unabomber ask for? Simple "With regard to revolutionary strategy, the only points on which we absolutely insist are that the single overriding goal must be the elimination of modern technology.

Let's be real here, folks. He knows that ain't gonna happen. Anyone this clearly intelligent who makes such ridiculous demands and has such ridiculous goals isn't interested in reforming society. He's got a personal ax to grind based on his own deep problems and inadequacies."

The problem is we don't know what that ax is, do we? Based on what Ted has said in his manifesto (which the FBI compaired AFTER his brother had turned him in) we could attempt to argue that he was punishing individuals and sending a message to society. These were terrorist acts aimed at instilling fear and enacting retribution. Whatever pathology Ted had at Berkeley (I think) manefested itself when he got out to the solitude of his cabin. It's possible Ted was killing couples in Vallejo. But (IMHO) much more probable that Allen was doing it.

I think Zodiac got much more of a kick from writing than Ted did. It shows in his letters. They also had a simplicity to them that Ted's writings lacked.

As for Ted waiting to "cut the throat" of Ms. Tarmichael (or words to that effect) I thought I read that Ted wanted to slash her face, maiming her, but not killing her. Again (if true) this goes against what Zodiac probably would have done.


More later,

Edward

Edward,
now I think it's the right time to ask every of the questions you have in your mind regarding Z/Ted.

Damm' boy you are on our list, and you are the best one !!!

Simple and to the point.. Im not going to go over every detail about Ted K. as you can read about him in the Zodiac Unibomber conection. Ted K. as the Unibomber would travel great distances just to mail his bombs from California. And there is question to him coming back to California to kill as the Zodiac.... I guess he's not the unibomber either as we would have to believe he came to California Just to mail the bombs.
As for him loving women; In his Psych. report it clearly shows his frustration with them when rejected. He also vowed to harm (kill) anyone that made him angry.
As for motive; He vowed to kill the people that angered him, he loved women but they would never seem to like him. He also hated the kind of guy that could get the women. Thats motif for the first three\four killings. If he got mad at a taxi driver, he could jut pick one ane exact his revenge. Thats motif for Stine. Last but not least he got a ticket for passing a school bus, hence the bus bomb threat. Thats motif for the bus bomb.
He still remains the only suspect that has motif's for all the killing Zodiac was involed in, and the only one I know of that has actually killed somone.
Im not positive he is Zodiac, it could be Kane or Allen, but he is a good suspect and warrents investigation.

I would like to know if it is possible to visit Ted K. / Unabomber inside the prison? Sounds crazy but i've got some questions for him... Comments thoughts anyone...? Thanks , J

Anonymous, you could probably write to him in prison and ask if he'd accept a visit. I'm planning sometime in the near future to send him a fairly comprehensive letter asking for alibis. To tell you the truth, I'd rather wait until his upcoming (October) hearing on the new trial he's been seeking and see if perhaps some more information can come to light before putting him on his guard.

The Unabomber-Zodiac Connection

Doug, Good going. I was one who asked you in the past if you were going to interview him.
Good luck.I know that you will do a very thorough job.
Bruce D.

I don't plan on making an interview out of my visit , and definitely don't want it to turn into him interviewing me... Thanks for you input! I'm going to have to think this idea through alittle further... and since you are going maybe I think I should hold off ... I wouldn't want to ruin his mood for the rest of you by the off chance...
Thanks , J

Ed:

You wrote, "I think Zodiac got much more of a kick from writing than Ted did. It shows in his letters. They also had a simplicity to them that Ted's writings lacked."

Not all of Ted's writings were written as educational pieces. Personal letters, portions of his diary, and other writings show he has the ability to write in a more candid manner utilizing sarcasm, wit and humor to attract the reader's attention, not unlike some of the Z correspondences. Combined with similar word usage (see Stylistic Comparisons @ http://home.att.net/~mignarda/style.html ), terminology, printing style, knowledge and use of code, it is my opinion that Ted is the most viable suspect of all know suspects in this particular area of comparison. Over a period of several months in 1998 and 1999, Ted Kaczynski corresponded with a psychologist by the name of Gary Greenberg who has written a series of articles on the Unabomber, "In the Kingdom of the Unabomber." In Part III (The Mark of Zorro), he describes his letters and their content. (See: http://www.mcsweeneys.net/1999/08/31unabom3.html).
*****

"As for Ted waiting to "cut the throat" of Ms. Tarmichael (or words to that effect) I thought I read that Ted wanted to slash her face, maiming her, but not killing her. Again (if true) this goes against what Zodiac probably would have done."

You are correct and I apologize for my incorrect memory. However, the fact that he thought about hiding in her car and doing great physical harm to her shows his "anger" towards rejection from a woman. As Douglas pointed out at some point, Ted probably drew back and changed his mind after coming to the realization that since Ted was fired for the harrassment of Ms. Tarmichael, he would certainly be immediately suspected of any wrongdoing as it related to violence against her.

******

I believe I have said this before, but again I'd like to say that I think one of the major keys to solving the Zodiac crimes is in the writings. I think any detective working this type of case would want to make very close and careful comparison of the Zodiac correspondences to all known writings of each of the suspects. What kinds of writings were key suspects known for? Did they write personal letters, letters-to-the-editor, keep diaries? Were they sarcastic in their writings? Did they like to provide "proof" of any work they did? What terminology did they use that was similar to Zodiac's?

Doug has done an outstanding and very time-consuming job of gathering this information in Ted's case. I'd like very much to see comparisons done in the same manner for each of the other suspects.

Hope everyone has a great labor day weekend!

Linda

Some recent quotes from Kaczynski, as they appeared in the Daily Telegraph:

I can pretty well guess who the dominant member of that couple is going to be. It's just disgusting. Let me know your neck size - I'd like to get you a dog collar next Christmas.

We were throwing that ball as hard as we could, and as far as we could . . . And so we were making these running, leaping catches. We made more fantastic catches that day than I think we did in all the rest of our years together.

...my attempts to make advances to girls had such humiliating results that for many years afterward, even until after the the age of 30, I found it excruciatingly difficult, almost impossible, to make advances to women.

If he does not redeem himself, then as far as I am concerned he is the lowest sort of scum, and the sooner he dies, the better.

These are verbal statements, not written, yet as can be readily observed, there's nothing very highbrow or academic about them. Kaczynski, like most good intellectuals, reserves his most stultifying English for an exclusive audience. It's instructive to realize that no one who knew him on an everyday basis in Montana had any clue that he possessed a doctorate.

The Unabomber-Zodiac Connection

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Quote:

First a quote, written by Ted in one of his diaries:

"Women are gentle, nice, pleasant to be with, they represent joy, family, life, love, and, of course, sex."

Zodiac hated women. They were nothing more than abstract objects of his rage. He killed them. Viciously.

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"Moreover, the Psych Report reveals that in 1978 Kaczynski, armed with a knife, concealed himself in the car of a woman who had spurned him, with the intention of mutilating her. This woman was Ellen Tarmichael, about whom Kaczynski had earlier written a series of obscene limericks, posting them throughout the production facility where they both worked."

--- Open letter to Lt. Bruton

I believe Ted had a violent distaste for women. He would have probably killed this one had they not worked together and his obscene affections for her not been so public.

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Quote:

John Douglas has said that he thinks Zodiac would have kept a diary as well. Does the quote above sound like something he would have written in it?

---

"Further, there is a "hole" in Kaczynski's extensive autobiography, in the form of a distinct gap occurring between September, 1966 and June, 1969, a gap not filled by Dr. Johnson's interview with Kaczynski earlier this year. Rusconi and I have sought to obtain a copy of this autobiography through an FOIA request, which currently is pending review by the FBI."

---Open letter to Lt. Bruton

---

Quote:

Ted (according to Orswell and Rusconi and Ted's relatives) was thought to have left the Bay Area and been living with his parents in Lombard, Illinois, before Stine was killed. Did he come back to kill Stine? Or was he still there? We don't know. In other words, Ted cannot be placed in the area at that time. His whereabouts are unknown. Allen was living in Vallejo. We can place him there. Ted we can't.

---

It's well known that Ted resigned from Berkeley in June of 69 and that the last zodiac victim (Paul Stine) was killed October 11th of 69. However, I've found nothing to place Ted in Lombard during this time either. Just because he resigned from Berkeley doesn't necessarily mean he left the bay area altogether.
And yes, Ted as the UB, was known to travel great distances. Hell, Ted as Ted, was known to do this as well.

---

Quote:

Ted supposedly hung around with his brother also, going up to Montana to look for land to buy either during or shortly after the murders, and would have had to return to SFO to mail certain letters. His brother was the one who turned him in for the Unibomber crimes. Did he turn his back on the Zodiac murders because he was involved or had knowledge of them? Don't think so.

---

Funny, it took his brother nearly twenty years to figure out that he was the unabomber. Do you think his brother was wiser in his youth? Don't think so.

---

Quote:

Ted had a grudge against everything corporate. I believe that's one of the reasons he had a problem teaching. (Maybe he felt he was part of the problem). But out on Lake Herman road, a perfect target would have been the SVAR machine that was eating entire mountains, not a pair of teenagers necking. Ted was interested in stopping the paving of paradise. Not stocking it with slaves.

---

"Yet, Kaczynski also is believed to have tried to murder a miner in the
Lincoln area in 1980, shooting him in the back with a .30-30 rifle, the book
suggests. The man survived after a painfully long recovery but remains
partially crippled. The .30-30 rifle is the only one of six Kaczynski guns
that has not been found, although he hid plenty of .30-30 ammunition that
was located."
--Ted: the menace and killer
By CHARLES S. JOHNSON of the Missoulian State Bureau

"Waits and his wife, Betty, love dogs and have kept a number of them at their
place. He tells how the dogs hated Kaczynski, barking and growling at him
when he hiked by. The hermit felt likewise about them. At least six of the
Waitses' dogs over the years were poisoned to death by strychnine. The FBI
inventory of Kaczynski's possessions after his arrest included a plastic
bottle labeled strychnine oats.

Another of their dogs had to be put down because someone "had repeatedly
stabbed and gouged the entire area under his tail, shredding his colon, hips
and rectal area" with a spear or sharp knife, Waits writes. A different dog
was shot up the rectum with a small-caliber bullet, dying an agonizingly
slow death.

The Waitses sometimes found their dogs smeared with human excrement. In
addition, Chris Waits had heard Kaczynski curse at the dogs at times when
the hermit thought Waits couldn't hear the curses."

--Ted: the menace and killer
By CHARLES S. JOHNSON of the Missoulian State Bureau

"My motive for doing what I am going to do is simply personal revenge. I do not expect to accomplish anything by it. I act merely from a desire for revenge."

-- Ted Kaczynski's Journal, April 1971 (from the sentencing memorandum)

"I believe in nothing... I don't even believe in the cult of nature-worshipers or wilderness-worshipers. (I am perfectly ready to litter in parts of the woods that are of no use to me -- I often throw cans in logged-over areas or in places much frequented by people; I don't find wilderness particularly healthy physically; I don't hesitate to poach.)"

-- Ted Kaczynski's Journal, April 1971 (from the sentencing memorandum)

---

Quote:

Douglas will undoubtedly disagree with this, but the main reason I don't think Ted could be the Zodiac is that he was cleared by the FBI. (And before you go yelling at me Douglas, Tom stated it on this site as well). If they could have solved the Zodiac murders and the Unibomber in one fell swoop, don't you think they would have done that? Are they holding back evidence? Is it all just a big conspiracy?

---

I still have a bad taste in my mouth over the reasons the FBI cleared Ted as Z. Handwriting samples, blah. Ted was intelligent enough to alter his handwriting.

Modus operandi, Ted's MO was to kill people any way he could without getting caught. As he's Stated many times, he's no tree hugger, he hates people. Jocks, Women, Snowboarders, and College students included. He's said that he'd rather kill with guns and knives, but he was afraid of being caught.

I just find it hard to believe that after his documented rage and admitted urge to kill in 1966 that he waited 12 years to begin doing so. Besides, had it been left up to the FBI, Ted would still be bombing away. Ted's brother caught him.

Something else to consider is this, Ted struck a plea bargain with the feds. Z, swore he'd never be caught. The feds have a full confession from the unabomber, yet the 1966-1969 segments of Ted's autobiography are still listed as "pending review." Smells rather fishy to me. Maybe we'll learn more in the future.

---

Quote:

Look, I'm not saying TED IS NOT THE ZODIAC! But Ted is a serial bomber who got pissed off at society for the way it mistreated the earth and sought to enact justice for precieved wrongs.

---

No, no, no. Once again:
"I believe in nothing... I don't even believe in the cult of nature-worshipers or wilderness-worshipers. (I am perfectly ready to litter in parts of the woods that are of no use to me -- I often throw cans in logged-over areas or in places much frequented by people; I don't find wilderness particularly healthy physically; I don't hesitate to poach.)"

-- Ted Kaczynski's Journal, April 1971 (from the sentencing memorandum)

Now, let's look at your guy, Allen. One need look no further than the composite drawings of Z to find the first hang up.

Z, had a crew cut, wore glasses, was thin, and was described as being shorter than 6 foot tall. Allen, was none of these things. In fact, Allen was 6 foot, heavy set, did not wear glasses and was nearly bald.

Ted, was a dead ringer for those composites.

Allen was not known to write letters to the news papers. Ted, well, you know.

Allen, didn't own a tan Chevrolet at the time of the Z killings. Ted did, but for some reason it vanished shortly after his move to Montana.

Allen, was not a known killer.
Ted, well, you know.

I'm not stating that Ted is Z, I just personally believe he fits better than Allen.

I totally agree with Tom on the DNA test. I think the SFPD dropped the ball and it continues to roll. A lot of our questions could have already been answered by now. I still have many questions about the evidence gathered, like the 101/2 size boot print found at one scene. What size foot did Allen have? What about Ted, what size shoe does he wear? Oh well, I won't even get started on the many questions I have, I've said enough for my first post here.

This site is a brilliant idea, I really enjoy sifting through the folders and musing the variety of theories. I have no idea who Z is/was, though it is vastly entertaining pondering the many possibilities offered here.

Best,
MHoward

Using a piece from the website, Dr. Zodiac, Mhoward wrote:
"Moreover, the Psych Report reveals that in 1978 Kaczynski, armed with a knife, concealed himself in the car of a woman who had spurned him, with the intention of mutilating her. This woman was Ellen Tarmichael, about whom Kaczynski had earlier written a series of obscene limericks, posting them throughout the production facility where they both worked."

--- Open letter to Lt. Bruton

I believe Ted had a violent distaste for women. He would have probably killed this one had they not worked together and his obscene affections for her not been so public.

Ted had a violent distaste for what he referred to as industrial-technological society. Zodiac DID kill women. Ted did not. His targets were men whom he perceived were part of that society. You believeTed had a violent distaste for women based on your argument that he was going to mutilate Ms. Tarmichael. I believeif she spurned his affection, Zodiac would have either killed her or someone who represented her in his mind. Not maim her and leave a witness he worked with. Ted wanted to mutilateMs. Tarmichael's face, leaving her scared for life, leaving her ugly but alive.


Mhoward then quoted again from Dr Zodiac's site:
"Further, there is a "hole" in Kaczynski's extensive autobiography, in the form of a distinct gap occurring between September, 1966 and June, 1969, a gap not filled by Dr. Johnson's interview with Kaczynski earlier this year. Rusconi and I have sought to obtain a copy of this autobiography through an FOIA request, which currently is pending review by the FBI."

---Open letter to Lt. Bruton

A distinct gap that covers only the first murders out on Lake Herman Road. What does Ted's autobiography reveal for that very busy summer and autumn?


In response to Ted's whereabouts during that time, Mhoward wrote:

It's well known that Ted resigned from Berkeley in June of 69 and that the last zodiac victim (Paul Stine) was killed October 11th of 69. However, I've found nothing to place Ted in Lombard during this time either. Just because he resigned from Berkeley doesn't necessarily mean he left the bay area altogether. And yes, Ted as the UB, was known to travel great distances. Hell, Ted as Ted, was known to do this as well.

So where was he? Allen was in Vallejo where the Zodiac is suspected to have lived.


Mhoward wrote:

Funny, it took his brother nearly twenty years to figure out that he was the unabomber. Do you think his brother was wiser in his youth? Don't think so.

They say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery but when used this way it just sounds adolescent. His brother figured it out only after he saw Ted's manifesto published. Did he keep quiet when Zodiac was writing and he recognized his brother's handwriting?


Then Mhoward wrote:

"My motive for doing what I am going to do is simply personal revenge. I do not expect to accomplish anything by it. I act merely from a desire for revenge."

-- Ted Kaczynski's Journal, April 1971 (from the sentencing memorandum)

"I believe in nothing... I don't even believe in the cult of nature-worshipers or wilderness-worshipers. (I am perfectly ready to litter in parts of the woods that are of no use to me -- I often throw cans in logged-over areas or in places much frequented by people; I don't find wilderness particularly healthy physically; I don't hesitate to poach.)"

-- Ted Kaczynski's Journal, April 1971 (from the sentencing memorandum)

How about what Ted wrote here:

"181. STRATEGY - As we stated in paragraph 166, the two main tasks for the present are to promote social stress and instability in industrial society and to develop and propagate an ideology that opposes technology and the industrial system."

- Ted's Manifesto

He certainly had a personal "ax" to grind. But it cannot be ignored that Ted truly (and for whatever reason) disliked industrial-technological society. Perhaps he felt that was at the core of what was wrong with him. His targets certainly represented this.
Like Zodiac, his writings were aimed at society. So were Son-of-Sam's. But unlike them Ted's targets were not innocent kids out necking.


In response to Ted's motives, Mhoward then reiterated:

No, no, no. Once again:
"I believe in nothing... I don't even believe in the cult of nature-worshipers or wilderness-worshipers. (I am perfectly ready to litter in parts of the woods that are of no use to me -- I often throw cans in logged-over areas or in places much frequented by people; I don't find wilderness particularly healthy physically; I don't hesitate to poach.)"

-- Ted Kaczynski's Journal, April 1971 (from the sentencing memorandum)

That changes Ted's motivation? That he litters or doesn't believe in nature-worship? He sent bombs to human beings that in his mind he perceived as part of the problem.
This is the prime area of disagreement. That Zodiac/Ted went from mixed-sexual homicides to political-extremist homicides. From killing couples to serial bombing is a major leap that I just don't see. Until Ted comes clean, he's way down on my list.

Mhoward then wrote:

Now, let's look at your guy, Allen. One need look no further than the composite drawings of Z to find the first hang up.

Z, had a crew cut, wore glasses, was thin, and was described as being shorter than 6 foot tall. Allen, was none of these things. In fact, Allen was 6 foot, heavy set, did not wear glasses and was nearly bald.

Never heard of a toupee? Zodiac's description varied. So did David Berkowitz'. The fact is that Zodiac has been described as 6 feet, 200+ pounds. Allen was also seen by Hartnell who said there was nothing to rule him out. Mageau positively ID'd him as Zodiac. Zodiac was also described as "barrel-chested." Zodiac did not wear glasses at BRS indicating he did not usually wear them. I believe he wore them in SFO at the Stine killing to protect his eyes from such a close range shot and perhaps as a disguise. Allen fit all these descriptions.

The Mhoward wrote:

Ted, was a dead ringer for those composites.

Not to my eyes. His nose and ears don't match. As well as his hair. Check out Allen's high dive photo elsewhere on this site. (Yes, I know it was earlier but the resemblence is uncanny.)

Allen was not known to write letters to the news papers. Ted, well, you know.

Yawn.

Allen, didn't own a tan Chevrolet at the time of the Z killings. Ted did, but for some reason it vanished shortly after his move to Montana.

Zodiac drove a tan Chevrolet? According to the only living eyewitness to actually see Zodiac's car at BRS it was a brown 1958-59 Ford Falcon. It's been mentioned that perhaps Allen got this vehicle from a service station he'd worked at.

Allen, was not a known killer.
Ted, well, you know.

Ted wasn't a known killer before they connected him with tangible evidence either.

MHoward wrote:

Now, let's look at your guy, Allen. One need look no further than the composite drawings of Z to find the first hang up.

Z, had a crew cut, wore glasses, was thin, and was described as being shorter than 6 foot tall. Allen, was none of these things. In fact, Allen was 6 foot, heavy set, did not wear glasses and was nearly bald.

Ted, was a dead ringer for those composites.

As Edward rebutted:

Not to my eyes. His nose and ears don't match.

While Allen doesn't resemble the composite, he's not the issue here. Kaczinsky doesn't either, and he's certainly no dead ringer for Z. Nor was Z "thin," considering the LB compaction test which indicated that he weighed over 200 pounds.

In fact, when we look at the pics of the known suspects, we can see that Peter O, "Andrew Todd Walker" and Richard Marshall resemble Z much more closely that Kaczinsky ever will. But that doesn't mean that I believe any one of them are Z, in fact, I don't believe that any of the suspects are Z. I just have those who are better suspects, and those who are worse.

While Douglas has drawn many fascinating parallels between Z and Kaczinsky, and while this has caused me to rethink his viability as a Z suspect, that does not mean that I think he was Z, just a better suspect in my book than he used to be. However, I still have a problem with the difference between the signature aspects of Z and Kaczinsky, and their motivations were entirely different as well.

Regarding suspects, Ed N wrote:

But that doesn't mean that I believe any one of them are Z, in fact, I don't believe that any of the suspects are Z. I just have those who are better suspects, and those who are worse.

Exactly. Although Allen's at the top of my list, if the Zodiac is ever identified, I think there's more than a good possiblity that we may all be surprised when he turns out to be someone none of us have ever heard of.

Edward writes

You believe Ted had a violent distaste for women based on your argument that he was going to mutilate Ms. Tarmichael. I believe if she spurned his affection, Zodiac would have either killed her or someone who represented her in his mind. Not maim her and leave a witness he worked with. Ted wanted to mutilate Ms. Tarmichael's face, leaving her scared for life, leaving her ugly but alive.

Here's the problem, neither of us think like Z or Ted. Who knows what might have been going through Ted's mind at that time? If Ted were Z, he hadn't killed anyone for 9 years at this point. Ted also remarked in is journal around this time as to having dreams of being chased by the police. Maybe this had something to do with his near capture after the Stine murder. Like Z, Ted did not want to be caught. In fact, It was this same year that Ted delivered his first bomb. Maybe Ted had developed more discretion, he was certainly a patient man. Z, announced that he'd change his MO, that he was leaning toward bombs. Maybe that's how he chose to get revenge.

Edward writes

So where was he? Allen was in Vallejo where the Zodiac is suspected to have lived.

I suppose, Allen, wins by default, solely because he lived in the area. Even though Ted's whereabouts are unaccounted for during this time, we're supposed to shrug him off, because Allen (a child molester) lived in the area? This sounds like you have your mind made up about Allen?

Edward writes

His brother figured it out only after he saw Ted's manifesto published. Did he keep quiet when Zodiac was writing and he recognized his brother's handwriting?

I have no idea what Ted's brother might or might not have been thinking. I only know that like most serial killers, Ted fooled many people for many years.

This is a good question on the grounds that I can't speak for Ted's brother (David) and have no logical means to refute such a statement. For instance, If I were to pose the same question in relation to Allen's parents and friends, how could you possibly be privy to their thoughts? I mean, Allen's parents lived in fear with the rest of the Bay community. It was a local nightmare for them, they must have read the papers. Ted's brother was not residing in California at the time. Had, Z, threatened to blow up an areoplane at a busy metropolitan airport if one of his manuscripts were not been published in a major publication. Maybe, he would have had his brother's attention, and it would all be water under the bridge by now. I can't speak for Ted's brother. Even if I could, this is a mute point.

Edward writes

Like Zodiac, his writings were aimed at society. So were Son-of-Sam's. But unlike them Ted's targets were not innocent kids out necking.

From what we know about Allen, the same could also be said. Allen was a known child molester. Why would he attack adults? In almost every known case of pedophile serial killers, (i.e., Gacey, Daumer, Williams and so on). They solely feasted on adolescents. What was his MO for killing Stine, other than terror?

Like Z, it seems clear that Ted killed for attention, for no other reason than to terrorize the public. It's certainly not out of the question that Ted or Berkowitz, for that matter, may have copied Z in this aspect. Though I'm sure the mere suggestion of Ted copying anyone, might lead him to vomit.

The fact is, we know that Ted had a similar Z, MO (terror), we also know that Ted wrote and fantasized of killing people. Criminally, all we know of Allen is that he got into a drunken scuffle with a friend (who continued to live) and that he molested children. (who lived to tell and convict him for it) We have no indication that Allen wanted to kill anyone other than chickens. Ted, we know, wanted to kill. Allen, while incarcerated, once confided to a fellow inmate that, he wished Zodiac would kill someone or mail another letter so he (Allen) might be cleared of any further zodiac connection.

Edward writes

This is the prime area of disagreement. That Zodiac/Ted went from mixed-sexual homicides to political-extremist homicides. From killing couples to serial bombing is a major leap that I just don't see. Until Ted comes clean, he's way down on my list

I could offer many theories on this, but they're pure speculation. To be honest, I don't like to speculate. That's why I don't believe Ted or Allen to be Z. Playing the devil's advocate, I only believe that Ted, makes a stronger case than Allen, not the strongest case overall. My biggest reason for eliminating both as Z suspects, the bloody fingerprint in Stine's cab matched neither of them.

If I were to speculate about Ted's transition from couples killer to mad bomber, I can see where Ted might commit both out of sexual frustration. I don't believe sex had anything to do with Z's killings per say, because no evidence exist to support any form of sexual deviance. None of the victims were raped. Hardly any of Z's victims were even touched by Z. Stine was clearly some kind of trophy meant to taunt the police and his killing also served (through terror) to increase his leverage on society. (Much like Ted's manifesto did.) Stine was not a sex crime.

Maybe Ted was ticked off at technology because he couldn't get laid. Maybe he thought his chances to be better if he bombed us back to the stone age where primal instinct still reigned supreme. He did remark in his journal, as a college student, to hearing his youthful neighbors (wealthy jocks and their girlfriends) cursing loudly and having fun, while he sat there alone in his darkened room. And later, he confessed to wanting to shoot noisy snowmobilers and kick them in their faces while he watched them die. I've stated this in jest. In reality, who knows what homicidal maniacs have rattling around in their brains. I don't presume to know. What I do know is, both, Ted and Z, used murder to gain terror. Allen has no history of this, that I know of.

Edward writes

The fact is that Zodiac has been described as 6 feet, 200+ pounds.

If Z, was the man who abducted Kathleen Johns in 1970, her description was vastly different.

"He wore a windbreaker made of blue and black nylon. He also wore black wool bell-bottom pants and thick black rimmed glasses held on by an elastic band. His hair was brown, cut in a crew cut. His nose was average, his jaw line strong. His eyes seemed dead like a doll's eyes. He had a medium build, possibly 155 to 165 pounds."

--Kathleen Johns}

If this was in fact, Z, then Kathleen Johns had the best look at him. Her abduction lasted 3 hours. I found something odd in the report she filed with the police department. She claims seeing children's clothes strewn about the car. Was the car stolen or did Z have kids?

Edward writes

Mageau positively ID'd him as Zodiac.

Yes, Alcoholic Mageau, ID'd Allen from the darkened glimpse he caught of Z, 19 years after the fact. If that would stand up in court, then I'm sure the DA would have used it.

Edward writes

Zodiac was also described as "barrel-chested."

Yes, but Allen had a barrel around his waste as well. Ted, I'll admit, had no barrel at all.

Edward writes

Zodiac did not wear glasses at BRS indicating he did not usually wear them. I believe he wore them in SFO at the Stine killing to protect his eyes from such a close range shot and perhaps as a disguise. Allen fit all these descriptions.

Again, I don't believe in speculation. Just because Z didn't wear glasses at BRS, in no way indicates that he did not usually wear them. Kathleen Johns says he did. He also wore a costume at BRS.

Edward writes

Not to my eyes. His nose and ears don't match. As well as his hair. Check out Allen's high dive photo elsewhere on this site. (Yes, I know it was earlier but the resemblence is uncanny.)

You're right, though the photo on the high dive was taken earlier in Allen's life, I can definitely see a resemblance. But the photo of Allen in 1967, just doesn't fit. I suppose he could have wore a toupee, though I don't think I've ever seen a crew cut toupee.

Edward writes

Zodiac drove a tan Chevrolet? According to the only living eyewitness to actually see Zodiac's car at BRS it was a brown 1958-59 Ford Falcon. It's been mentioned that perhaps Allen got this vehicle from a service station he'd worked at.

Please allow me to clarify. The man who abducted Kathleen Johns (Z?) was reported to drive a tan Chevrolet station wagon, on one account, and on another, it was described as being a maroon and white Chevrolet station wagon. Ted drove a tan Chevrolet station wagon.

Best,
MHoward

Ed N. writes:

In fact, when we look at the pics of the known suspects, we can see that Peter O, "Andrew Todd Walker" and Richard Marshall resemble Z much more closely that Kaczinsky ever will.

I must agree with you here. It's amazing how much they look like the composite drawings. That's the first pictures I've seen of them. I wish we knew more about Walker, I never find much on him.

Ed N. writes:

But that doesn't mean that I believe any one of them are Z, in fact, I don't believe that any of the suspects are Z. I just have those who are better suspects, and those who are worse.

I agree, I believe that whoever Z, is/was, he was an active member of the navy and a father at the time of his murders. Ted went to Berkeley to avoid enlistment.

Best,
M. Howard

Mhoward, I am curious. Why do you believe Zodiac was a father at the time of his murders?

Mhoward,

You wrote:
"...To be honest, I don't like to speculate."

That's all we do here is speculate.

You indicate you've read the police report on Kathleen Johns. Perhaps you're unaware that some of us view her numerous remarks with ample skepticism and seriously doubt if she was abducted by Zodiac that night. She's ID'd several suspects, Allen among them.

A good case could be made in court for Mageau's positive ID. Psychologists could testify to the theory of "stress imprinting."

As for having my mind made up about Allen, read my previous post to Ed N.

More later,

Edward

Edward wrote: A good case could be made in court for Mageau's positive ID. Psychologists could testify to the theory of "stress imprinting."

It is doubtful that any competant DA would even attempt to introduce Mageau's ID in court. Mageau's history of drug and alcohol abuse, coupled with a history of prior inconsistent statements, would effectively destroy any credibility he might hope to have. When you add the fact that his original description of the killer could not possibly match Allen, his ID is virtually worthless as evidence, and no amount of tesitmony from any psychiatrist could change that reality. Any competant defense attorney would tear him apart on cross-examination, and quite easily.

Just my opinion, but one which I believe is wholly supported by the facts.

I have no doubt that a defense attorney would demean Mageau's character and recall on the stand. "Effectively destroy his credibility?" Probably. However jury's are fickle things, and expert testimony has been known to sway them in the face of supposedly insurmountable evidence to the contrary. (Anyone remember OJ?).

We disagree. Personally, I wouldn't keep him off the stand. But I don't know all the facts. I was merely speculating about one possible avenue in court regarding Mageau's ID of Allen.

Hurley writes:

I am curious. Why do you believe Zodiac was a father at the time of his murders?


Two reasons I believe that Z may have been a father around the time of his murders. Unfortunately both stem from the seemingly frowned upon, Kathleen Johns abduction. My first reason. Johns remembered seeing children's clothes strewn about her abductor's car.

Second reason. At the time of Kathleen Johns abduction, she had her 7 month old daughter with her. The abductor wouldn't have known this until he offered her a ride because the little girl was asleep on the front seat. She was hidden from view, until Johns announced that she had to get her baby before she could go with him. Z's killings were usually quick hit and runs. For some unknown reason, he kept Johns and her baby for over 3 hours.

I believe if this man were a father himself, it may explain his trepidation with killing Johns, she was holding the baby the whole ride. He passed road after road, and basically drove around in circles. The man had ample time and opportunity to kill her, but was obviously torn over some unknown dilemma. I believe the delay may have been an indication of his unwillingness to kill a child. The reason he was not keen on the idea of killing a child, may be an indication that he had children of his own.

Whoever this man was, he certainly didn't want to leave any evidence behind. Kathleen Johns car was later found burned beyond recognition.

Best,
M. Howard

hm, Why that's a good idea! Nice observation too. I was trying to think of why he would have childrens clothes in the car too unless they were some kind of victims of his as well.

Edward writes:
That's all we do here is speculate.

By all means, speculate away. I enjoy reading the many theories here, just as long as we understand that they are theories.

Edward writes:
As for having my mind made up about Allen, read my previous post to Ed N.

My apologies, you submitted that post while I was in the process of writing mine.
Kudos, I'm glad to see you have an open mind.

It's simply amazing when you consider the number of people who could be Zodiac. I don't think I've ever seen anything like this before. There were many killers roaming around the bay area during the summer of love. People from all over the place were flooding into the SF area around this time. Manson and his family were close by. Ted Bundy was also near. John Norman Collins was roaming around in a stolen camper somewhere in California. They were all looking for excitement and stoned out of their minds.

I doubt we'll ever know who Z was. He picked the perfect place and time to do what he did.

Best,
M. Howard

MHoward,
Wayne Williams and Jeffrey Dahmer were known to kill adults. The same could be said of Zodiac, whose first victims were kids. In fact, of his seven known victims, over 25% were kids.

Maybe one could make the arguement that Zodiac WAS a pedophile.

Tom wrote:
"In fact, of his seven known victims, over 25% were kids.

Maybe one could make the arguement that Zodiac WAS a pedophile."

Maybe, on Bizarro Earth. All of Z's victims had passed the age of consent (16), so while some were minors, none were jailbait. I'm not sure what age group qualifies a predator as a pedophile, but 16+ is probably out of the range.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

Under the circumstances, Zodiac didn't have any way of knowing whether the people he murdered were under age or not.

Wayne Williams was convicted of killing two men --aged 21 and 27. He was never tried, let alone convicted of killing any children, and the case against him in the killings of the 20-odd Atlanta children is questionable at best. Many of the mothers of these children did not believe Williams was the "Atlanta Child Murderer," and many of the detectives who worked on the case believed that Williams did not commit those crimes, but they had serious doubts that Williams had actually killed the two men he was convicted of murdering as well.

Jeffrey Dahmer engaged in homosexual/necrophilic activity with his victims. He sought out victims to indulge in his deviant fantasies, and his preferred victims were young adult males. To the best of my knowledge, the two boys -- aged 14 and ? -- were the only victims who could be classified as "kids."

Although I am willing to entertain the (thin) notion that the Zodiac might have been a pedophile, there seems no legitimate reason to compare the Zodiac with Williams or Dahmer. Also, there is no evidence to indicate that the Zodiac was a pedophile.

Doug wrote:
"Under the circumstances, Zodiac didn't have any way of knowing whether the people he murdered were under age or not."

I think the fact that they were parked in a car on a road in the middle of nowhere is a pretty good indication that they weren't children. I can't claim certain knowledge of California's minimum driving age 30-odd years ago, but I can't imagine it would be under 16. If anything, Z would have assumed that they were older, rather than younger.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

I believe Jake is right.One of the clues my Z suspect gave me was : 2nd victim was stalked.I don't know if he meant Betty Lou Jensen was his second victim, having shot David First.It seemed that someone was watching Betty Lou for a while. The next line on the note was, Vallejo-Darleen Feran(sic)7-4-69 DOA then the Z logo. Next line : Linked to Presidio S.F. Next line:3 suspects-69 last contact #1n his 40s now.(that was the only period used in this note)I was given this note in 87 or 88.If he was referring to NOW as being 87 or 88, his birth year could be anywhere from 38 to 48.But if he meant he was in his 40s in 1969? The Birth years could be 1920- 29! ( That my friends is fuzzy math) Also the # 1 n his 40s now , tells me again, more than one person is involved ."If" of course the man who has been playing with me for 30+ years is the real Z.

Whatever the age, Z showed no signs of sexual deviance. A pedophile would have shown some signs of sexual deviance. Allen was a sexual sadist pedophile, he liked to inflict pain on young kids while molesting them. There is absolutely no evidence of this in any of the Zodiac Killings. If Allen was Z, why did he change his MO? About the only undisputed evidence we have on Allen, he was a confessed pedophile, who enjoyed inflicting pain on his victims, not killing them. Z, was nothing like this.

If Z did the Santa Rosa killings, (and I believe he did)then this killer did enjoy torture.Its my understanding that a sexual sadist changes his mo to satisfy his fantasy.This can escalate in time to a very brutal killer depending on his fantasy. Sex, after all has to do a lot with the mind.

RE: Pedophiles and Z's M.O.:

In discussions with a criminal defense attorney who defended capital cases, I learned that the murderers he defended said that before they began killing, they felt the urge and fantasized about killing...who, how, where, etc. They many times kept these urges at bay for long periods of time but, finally, the urge overcame them and they acted on the fantasy. After crossing that line for the first time, they crossed it again and again with little trouble.

It seems that Z fantasized about the killing of his slaves in the Mikado Letter and the Little List Letter and in his bus bomb musings. We can't be sure (YET) which of these he actually enacted, but he sure did THINK about torture and he thought about children. From the ciphers, we know he THOUGHT about stalking/hunting. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that at Lake Hermann and Blue Rock Springs he was thinking of himself as a HUNTER/STALKER. At Lake Berryessa he could have thought of himself as an executioner (Mikado style). In the cab with Paul Stine, he could have been thinking of himself as Dirty Harry or some other action flick character.

So I guess the point of this most recent rambling is that we can possibly change the way we think of Z's M.O....Instead of saying, "Lake Berryessa doesn't match Z's style, so it must have been someone else," we could realize that Z's style was to fantasize, mind-merge with evil, if you will, and then go act out whatever got him off within the limits of his time, travel capabilites, and the risk parameters he set for himself. Hence, ANY killing could be him.

That's too broad to do us any good so to narrow it down, we have to look at what we know and speculate from there. West Coast most likely. Beginning mid 1960's and continuing to haunt the area through at least early 1970's. Acting alone most likely because bad guys can't keep a secret worth a d***. Writing letters so we'd know of some for sure (but possibly NOT writing letters so we WOULDN'T know about others). Killing where he could see the victim die (not long-range sniper fire, not poisioning pain killers at the factory, not bombing).

I think he wanted to see the body twitch and squirm as the person died (Mikado letter). That's when he got off. So in that sense, it's sexual. That could include children as well as adults.

And of course, I'm the one who believes that he killed JonBenet Ramsey. So that eliminates ALA as a suspect in my logical illogic.

Realtor

Speaking of violent fantasies, and while we're on the subject of Kaczynski, here's a passage from the Sally Johnson Psychological Report in which the doctor relates a passage from Ted's autobiography:

"During my years at Michigan I occasionally began having dreams of a
type that I continued to have occasionally over a period of several years. In the dream
I would feel either that organized society was hounding me with accusation in some
way, or that organized society was trying in some way to capture my mind and tie me
down psychologically or both. In the most typical form some psychologist or
psychologists (often in association with parents or other minions of the system)
would either be trying to convince me that I was "sick" or would be trying to control
my mind through psychological techniques. I would be on the dodge, trying to
escape or avoid the psychologist either physically or in other ways. But I would grow
angrier and finally I would break out in physical violence against the psychologist
and his allies. At the moment when I broke out into violence and killed the
psychologist or other such figure, I experienced a great feeling of relief and
liberation. Unfortunately, however, the people I killed usually would spring back to
life again very quickly. They just wouldn't stay dead. I would awake with a
pleasurable sense of liberation at having broken into violence, but at the same time
with some frustration at the fact that my victims wouldn't stay dead. However, in the
course of some dreams, by making a strong effort of will in my sleep, I was able to
make my victims stay dead. I think that, as the years went by, the frequency with
which I was able to make my victims stay dead through exertion of will increased."

Realtor, So you feel Zodiac was role playing, acting out his fantasies based on movies?

Very, very interesting.

Hurley:

Maybe movies. Maybe musical comedies like The Mikado. Maybe comic books. Maybe from porn mags/flicks. Maybe whatever devils entered his mind on drugs. Don't know where the pictures in his head came from but I think he used those to get off and at some point the urges were too strong to fight...or maybe the fantasies alone were no longer enough to get him off...anyway, he finally HAD to cross the line and kill.

Douglas, I read your post above with interest, as usual, but the passage from Ted's psychologist doesn't say "sex/porn/smarmy" to me. It says ANGER and FEAR and PARANOIA. "I hate the shrink and those who are trying to get me, so I'd like to kill them. But I'm scard to kill them outright so they come back to life and get me." That matches extremely well with a bomber--long distance kills out of anger..."I'll get those bastards"....VERY different from "I'll stalk you and hunt you and kill you so that I can see your flesh twitch and squirm as the life leaks out of you...I'll torture you by rubbing "heat" on your body and watch you scream and twitch in the sun before you die"...that's weird sexy....and that's ZODIAC.

Lord, I hope I'm not really understanding him too well.......

Realtor

Realtor wrote:

Instead of saying, "Lake Berryessa doesn't match Z's style, so it must have been someone else," we could realize that Z's style was to fantasize, mind-merge with evil, if you will, and then go act out whatever got him off within the limits of his time, travel capabilites, and the risk parameters he set for himself. Hence, ANY killing could be him.

Isn't that what I've been saying? Based on Robert Keppel's work, it would appear that Z experimented with the various core components of his signature as he "evolved" (poor choice and typical misuse of the word, actually; "developed" would be a better term) as a killer. In other words, he tried different things to to see how well it got him off.

That does not, however, necessarily mean that he wanted to see children die. I think that the whole bus bomb episode was a ruse designed for two purposes:

1) To get as many cops as possible off the streets looking for him and onto buses protecting children from him, and

2) To scare the hell out of the three teens who saw him.

Yes, I actually met an old friend of theirs by chance about a year ago (it really was someone who knew them because he knew their names, as I do), and he related that, just before Z left the crime scene, he turned and looked right at the three teens, then walked away. I suspect that the threat was actually aimed at them, not at schoolchildren in general. Why? Maybe it was a veiled threat of sorts, warning that he might come back to kill them or something.

In any case, I don't see where pedophilia fits into the Z crimes at all.

P.S. Realtor, Dirty Harry came out two years after the Z crimes were committed.

ED N. Writes:
In any case, I don't see where pedophilia fits into the Z crimes at all.

Ed, I totally agree with you. That's the main reason I don't think Z could have possibly been Allen.


M. Howard

Ed:

Thanks for the correction. Substitute some other action flick/book/public figure of nasty character for Dirty Harry and my meaning is still the same.

Realtor

I'll torture you by rubbing "heat" on your body and watch you scream and twitch in the sun before you die ...

The actual quote was that he would "rub them down with deep heat ...." Deep Heat is actually a commercial product, not unlike Ben Gay. So what we need is to look for a suspect who not only has a Zodiac wristwatch on his arm, but a tube of Deep Heat in his medicine cabinet. Only then can we be sure.

Douglas:

Thank you for THAT correction. I was not aiming to quote but to synthesize the thought process.

While we're checking his pockets and his medicine cabinet, we need to check for Mikado records, a flashlight, a black hood and a fistful of blue felt tip pens and maybe a compass and protractor.

Taking my tongue out of my cheek, I bet he kept the remaining portion of Mr. Stine's shirt.

Realtor

Well, Kaczynski at least had a couple of hoods and the flashlight he used to spotlight rabbits with. Oh yes, and the clear, black-rimmed glasses that he used to protect his eyes while bicycling. Not too sure about the Mikado records, but a couple of years ago he did tell an admirer that he enjoyed reading opera.

As Rusconi and I observed in our Dr. Zodiac:

The gadfly was at it again. “I’ve got the list of items taken out of Ted Kaczynski’s shack,” he wrote. “There is not one thing; not ONE THING found inside that cabin that could possibly link him to the Zodiac.”

We had the list ourselves, and in one sense he was right. Not found in Ted Kaczynski’s cabin were a trivet with the crosshair circle and a brass knocker with “ZODIAC” engraved upon it. They did find some maps of San Francisco; a black jacket; three typewriters; a jar of ammonium nitrate; a blue zippered sweatshirt; a blue hood; a blue jacket; seven pairs of glasses; notebook paper; sewing materials; a “khaki colored cloth, somewhat deteriorated and resembling a ski mask”; a canvas green/brown face mask; a black face mask; and a length of clothesline.

At least as convincing as a Zodiac watch, in my humble opinion.

Realtor: Z probably needed that portion of Stine's shirt to repair his own torn one. He was too cheap to even visit Goodwill or the Salvation Army to buy a used one in good condition.

Ed:

I can't get your point...Is there a suspect who was seen wearing a torn shirt?

Douglas:

Whatever Z knew of the Mikado, he didn't learn it by reading it because his quotation errors are misunderstandings from LISTENING and never READING the text.

The Zodiac watch may mean something or it may mean nothing at all. I visited the Zodiac watch website yesterday. They are still made, cost a good amount of money (I'm used to the Wal-Mart brands), come in six or eight models and are made for both men and women. They must be selling to someone!

Realtor

"Whatever Z knew of the Mikado, he didn't learn it by reading it because his quotation errors are misunderstandings from LISTENING and never READING the text. "

Wow. Now there's an assumption for ya'...

No one can say what the truth is here. I would think that was obvious. Zodiac may have read The Mikado, and paraphrased from memory or deliberately altered the text. He may have only listened to the musical, and never read the play. Who knows? I don't, and you certainly don't, either.

Realtor: I was joking. My tongue was firmly planted in my cheek when I posted that. We all need to lighten up a bit here sometimes, otherwise, I'd get too depressed thinking about the sick scumbag who is the reason we're all here having gotten away with murder. Several times.

It's hard to say from the existing evidence whether Zodiac was simply paraphrasing the Lord High Executioner's aria from memory. But if he recited it from memory it's hard to think that he could have recalled it as well as he did from just a single hearing; yet multiple hearings would hardly have led to some of the egregious errors that we see in the paraphrase, such as "phomphit" for "puff it" and "girl who never kissed" for "lady novelist." Every rendition of the song I've ever heard is quite clear, and I've never needed a libretto to follow it.

Douglas:

The original lyrics were written "lady novelist" but productions in more recent years in this country at least have used "girl who never kissed" so as not to offend women who write (something rather rare in the late 1800's when the play was written). These very words show that Z learned the words from an American production in the 1960's, not from reading the play in its original text.

Z writes "banjo serenader" where Gilbert and Sullivan wrote "nigger banjo player" so again, Z learned what he did not from the original text but from a thankfully up-dated version of the play.

I maintain that his errors are due to having never read the material... he wrote what he had heard, not what he had read.

Realtor

I've never seen a version containing "girl who never kissed," but the other emendations I'm well aware of. I've got one tape in which the entire aria is replaced with a modern text.

Whoever Zodiac might have been it seems clear to me that he knew the Mikado well enough to understand that its thematic content fit his perceptions of what he was about; that is to say, the execution of flirters and frustrated love, both expressed in songs performed by a single character, Ko-Ko.

Douglas:

The original 18xx version by G&S is where "girl who never kissed" appears.

Realtor

Douglas!!

Ignore my last post. I screwed it up. Original was "lady novelist." Z wrote