Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Other Suspects: Bruce Davis
|By Joe (Joe) (adsl-63-204-75-203.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net - 220.127.116.11) on Friday, August 24, 2001 - 10:16 am:|
If Bruce and Charlie were involved in the Zodiac murders, why didn't they leave "clews" in the Tate-La Bianca murders that implicated Zodiac?
|By The Fife (Thefife) (host020.bro.capgroup.com - 18.104.22.168) on Friday, August 24, 2001 - 02:31 pm:|
I am thinking why should he? He would rather people thought that there was a general grassroots uprising in the making. Connecting them and have you think they were caused by a core group would not benefit Charlie's goals, would it?
|By Joe (Joe) (adsl-63-205-196-208.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net - 22.214.171.124) on Friday, August 24, 2001 - 04:38 pm:|
My point was why Davis would want to kill and blame it on a lone nut? Charlie's whole idea was Helter Skelter. Blame these murders on black perpetrators and white society kneejerks it's way into perpetuating a race war. Zodiac was, from the start, in no way related to the Tate-LaBianca murders. Where does Zodiac fit into this?
|By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ntc-ta031.proxy.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Friday, August 24, 2001 - 05:16 pm:|
My feeling is that IF Davis was Z, then it was not part of Helter Skelter, but more of
a personal game Davis was playing albeit inspired at times by Manson.
Howard, I agree that the Santa Barbara murders (both earlier and later) must be related. I have a problem with Gaul/Sharpe only because Doreen was raped, does not sound like Z. Any thoughts?
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 188.8.131.52) on Friday, August 24, 2001 - 05:52 pm:|
Sylvie:The Gaul /Sharp murders were not a Zodiac attack,but there were similarities as
I have already brought out in extensive detail.See posts.She was murdered because she had
been dating a black man behind Davis' back.See CII Confidential Report I have in my book.
I knew the late LT. Deemer the leading Investigator and he told me Davis murdered Gaul for the reason given here and that both men stabbed them to death(Tex also raped Marina Habe before she was stabbed to death)there was more than one perp.It was Tex Watson that did the raping.Both he and Davis did the stabbing.
Both men left the area on the 24th of November 1969 about three days after the murders-Davis returned to the U.S.early in December due to the problems the Family was having.He was quite depressed as he thought that their Venture was failing and Manson was in jail,etc.By the next year they were more positive and everything was on.He is a prime suspect in a murder in London near the end of November.
I will answer other questions on the whole deal later tonight-must go!
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-14.linkline.com - 184.108.40.206) on Saturday, August 25, 2001 - 10:11 am:|
Joe:I will answer soon but I am busy now.See all my posts relative to this topic-just do Archive.
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (186.philadelphia01rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 220.127.116.11) on Saturday, August 25, 2001 - 12:37 pm:|
I still have a feeling that the Berryessa attack was a response to the notoriety achieved by the Manson killings a month earlier. Someone had stolen the poor sap's thunder, and he needed to get it back.
|By H.J. Nelson (Hjnelson) (66-81-52-83-modem.o1.com - 18.104.22.168) on Saturday, August 25, 2001 - 06:20 pm:|
As was stated in Howard's book Zodiac was Manson's way of starting Helter Skelter in Northern California. The Family would take care of Southern California. California was the first state slated for the uprising. Then it was to go nationwide then worldwide. There was no need to connect the Family with Zodiac.
|By Joe (Joe) (adsl-63-204-75-0.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net - 22.214.171.124) on Saturday, August 25, 2001 - 07:32 pm:|
But Manson wanted a race war. How were the Zodiac murders going to help perpetuate that?
|By H.J. Nelson (Hjnelson) (66-81-21-137-modem.o1.com - 126.96.36.199) on Saturday, August 25, 2001 - 07:41 pm:|
It was Manson's hope that "Whitey" would see the Zodiac murders as being perpetrated by a Black and then retaliate. It was his misfortune that they weren't.
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acb6397a.ipt.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Saturday, August 25, 2001 - 08:18 pm:|
Zodiac never made any attempt to stage the crime scenes or his letters to support such a plan.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-89.linkline.com - 184.108.40.206) on Sunday, August 26, 2001 - 02:19 am:|
Only have a minute.Nor did the Family-they killed and thought that those that were
'tuned in' would "do their thing".The murders that were committed "by
random",as Manson stated, would simply "inspire" those that were "one
in their minds" to begin killing-like in a riot.It was to be done "beneath the
level of peoples awareness"or as given by Manson, "subliminally"-the rest
would just happen."We have to get publicity [a cipher is great for that and demanding
'front page' coverage and a 'deadline '-Aug 1st- at that!]for Helter Skelter and we have
do it by programing the people" said Manson.
There are, in my view,"subtle programs" in Z's letters/postcards as I point out in my book.If one has not researched subliminal programing as Manson did, then this is hard to grasp.
All Zodiac had to do was "kill by random" send threatening letters ("publicity")and this would "strike fear in society...and wire the people up for gore...and the War would be on".It was for "all segments of society" not just whites and blacks."San Francisco was ready to explode" said the Wizard!M detested the S.F. police because he said they had a direct hand in ending the love thing and he was 'going to exact vengence' on the "pigs"!
This is what they believed,and it was crazy(like Z and his crimes/letters,etc.!)but, of course,it did not work as Manson sadly confessed to Vincent Bugliosi!All quotes are from Manson.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p142.as1.clonmel1.eircom.net - 220.127.116.11) on Sunday, August 26, 2001 - 01:30 pm:|
As a matter of interest Howard,when did Davis "team up" with Manson? If you
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-56.linkline.com - 18.104.22.168) on Monday, August 27, 2001 - 02:29 am:|
Lampumo:There are two accounts.The one given by Manson is that they met Davis in
Seattle, WA September 15,1967.For some reason Davis does not want this scenario so he
states ,in private, he met Manson in Malibu in '68.In a secret prison report that I have
Davis told the counselor that a friend in Malibu wanted to "crosscut saw
someone" and he wanted to go with him and watch!
It was Manson ,but this friend and Manson made friends(I would too-ouch!)Of course, Davis was disappointed.I would be too-imagine getting to see someone cut up with a crosscut saw and having the show stopped by a nasty reconciliation.They met in Washington-in Seattle in '67.There is a Manson, WA.
I always thought it was interesting that Zodiac selected Washington St.(the name of the state where the two first met)in S.F. for the Stine deal.
Davis went to school in Knoxville,TN and there is Knoxville Rd.that Z traversed at LB.There was Tennessee St. in Vallejo on which Z travelled.The PD on Virginia the state Manson was reared in.And next to Tennessee St. is Louisiana-Davis was born in the state with that name.Just FYI only.
|By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ntc-tc034.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Tuesday, August 28, 2001 - 09:31 am:|
For those interested Bruce Davis will be making his 18th attempt at parole on Sept 24.
|By Boojum (Boojum) (32.new-york-08rh15rt-ny.dial-access.att.net - 126.96.36.199) on Tuesday, August 28, 2001 - 04:59 pm:|
Why not? He's no more of a threat to society than Al Sharpton.
|By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ntc-tb083.proxy.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Tuesday, August 28, 2001 - 05:37 pm:|
Well, there is really no reason that Steve Grogan should have been released and not Davis. Unless of course, the powers that be know something that we do not.
|By Roger Redding (Roger_Redding) (user-33qs0eu.dialup.mindspring.com - 184.108.40.206) on Tuesday, August 28, 2001 - 09:09 pm:|
[Davis is] no more of a threat to society than Al Sharpton.
Well, there you go. Throw away the key.
Well, there is really no reason that Steve Grogan should have been released and not Davis.
Grogan's knees were shot and he couldn't scramble out of the pocket anymore. Plus his contract put them over the salary cap
|By Bruce (Bruce_D) (pm3-04-05.sle.du.teleport.com - 220.127.116.11) on Tuesday, August 28, 2001 - 09:24 pm:|
His throwing did improve though since Jack Tatum met Darryl Stingly.
|By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ntc-td071.proxy.aol.com - 18.104.22.168) on Wednesday, August 29, 2001 - 07:48 am:|
I guess Grogan traded Manson for sports, but seriously folks, Davis is imprisioned for
the murders of Shorty Shea and Gary Hinman. Shea was a group killing with Manson most
likely doing the actual act, Grogan was there, like Davis, but was released many years ago
for that crime.
Davis was not even there when Hinman was killed, that was Bobby Beausoleil, with a little help from Susan Atkins.
Ask yourselves why there are holding on tightly to Davis. Do they fear that he is actually responsible for many other murders?
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-17.linkline.com - 22.214.171.124) on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 01:33 am:|
You have not read Davis' parole hearings I see.The reason that they are not letting him out is that he is a "threat to society"and he has "unfavorable psych'" reports showing "rage" problems,etc.Due to the "extremely violent" nature of his crimes and the "ferocity" in which they were carried out ,they have rejected him for parole some 17 times!
My pristine source told me in '74 that they had it set so that "he [Davis]would never get out."It is the murders that he is a prime suspect in-and there are several-that he is being held for.Please don't tell me this is illegal(a sick bird!) as it is done all the time according to some authorities I have spoken to.They can dwell on you needing to take more courses,obeying the prison rules with more astuteness,ad infinitum.
I have his prison reports and they -after intense evaluations -all stated he was a psychotic with paranoia(it's a wonder that I am not paranoid with the whole world hating me like they do!)and schizophrenia with suppressed rage and was extremely dangerous.He presented a great paradox(two doctors!)to the whole staff, because during interviews he could be quite pleasant but,cold and controlling at the same time.
If he ever gets out it will be because of a new liberal Parole Board- or some members-and they are on the Board, that could vote for his release.It happens all the time.Al Sharpton indeed.Now maybe OJ!(heard his fav' soda is Slice!)
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acb50cf9.ipt.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 02:10 am:|
Didn't O.J. also do commercials for rent-a-car "Hurts"?
Oops...I meant Hertz.
Uh-oh...I better get back on topic.
Bruce Davis is a bad dude. Let's all hope he rots in prison, although I'd like to see Sharon Tate's dad finally get a crack at him. (Is he still alive?)
|By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ntc-tc031.proxy.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 07:44 am:|
Doris Tate is dead. I used to take ballet classes with Patti Tate. She was a beautiful
as her sister, was sad all the time.
I am so with you here Howard. They don't even know how violent Shea's death was, as when Grogan led them to he body it was not all cut up as Barbara Hoyt had said, so why was that particularly violent? I repeat he was not even there when Hinman was murdered. So they do know something, even if it is just for Gaul/Sharpe. It is true that they do it all the time -- Albert DeSalvo is a case in point, he was never tried for any Boston Strangler crime, they just figured he could have been, and he was a creep anyway with his perverted Green Man visits. So who cares -- saves money not to prosecute and we got him anyway. The problem here is that this does not give any closure to the devastated families of the victims, which is why I applaud you Howard. You're right about Davis being BAD, I have even read reports that HE actually corrupted Manson, before that Manson, although a career criminal, had not shown violent, murderous tendancies.
The one that Tate should really get his hands on is Watson and rip him into 1,000 pieces.
|By Boojum (Boojum) (115.new-york-06rh16rt-ny.dial-access.att.net - 184.108.40.206) on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 05:26 pm:|
Yeah, what the heck, let's just throw out the Constitution and a thousand years of Anglo-Saxon law and avenge the goddam victims! Right on, Sylvie! Forward into the past! You go, girl!
|By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ntc-tc031.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 05:41 pm:|
I'm not saying it is right, I am saying it is done and if you think not then you are very naive.
I also said it is wrong, which is why I support finding out the truth.
|By Bruce (Bruce_D) (pm3-06-06.sle.du.teleport.com - 18.104.22.168) on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 09:29 pm:|
The Constitutioin can legally be thrown out. All of our amendments have started with a
2/3's vote by each House of Congress-then ratified by 3/4's of the states.
But there is another way to amend the Constitution.This way has never been done so far since the Constitution was ratified by the states at the Constitution's inception.
Instead of Congress proposing an amendment,2/3'S OF THE STATES PROPOSE AN AMENDMENT- Then by Constitutional law ,a Consititution Convention will be called for the purpose to propose not only the amendment in question but any other amendments. It still would take 3/4's of the states to ratify any proposed amendments-INCLUDING THE NULLIFICATION OF THE WHOLE CONSTITUTION IF SO RATIFIED AND WE COULD END UP "LEGALLY" WITH A FORM OF GOVERNMENT THAT IS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO A FEDERAL REPUBLIC.
|By The Fife (Thefife) (host020.bro.capgroup.com - 22.214.171.124) on Friday, August 31, 2001 - 08:46 am:|
It was precisely that possibility that got lots of the hippie youth concerned in the 60s. There was this sense in the air that the whole country was about to be converted/perverted. That plus the racial tensions created the atmosphere where a Manson could weave a sense of credibility into his pipe dreams.
|By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 126.96.36.199) on Sunday, September 02, 2001 - 09:14 pm:|
I thought I read one of Howards post about a fox tail found either under or next to the Gaul victim? I was at Lake B a few weeks ago, and found one of only two places you can launch a boat, was called "Foxtail" flat. I thought about K.Johns and the things she saw in that mans car, like boat things. Allen, Kane, and RH, all had boats at that time.Something about the fox I think could be a clue to the killer. A small red toy Fox was put in my yard,as I have said before,Zorro is Fox in Spanish.The sign for Zorro is Z,could that be a connection,like his signature?
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-118.linkline.com - 188.8.131.52) on Wednesday, September 05, 2001 - 01:20 am:|
Please go to Archives for my Gaul and Sharp comments. Zorro
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p31.as1.clonmel1.eircom.net - 184.108.40.206) on Tuesday, October 09, 2001 - 02:33 am:|
I do note that "Free Manson" buttons went on sale in stores in Feb 69...two months later we have Zodiac letter requesting buttons...Connection or Rivalry?
|By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ntc-td042.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Tuesday, October 09, 2001 - 10:24 am:|
Manson was not incarcerated 2-69.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (18.104.22.168) on Tuesday, October 09, 2001 - 11:00 am:|
Sorry Sylvie,my post should have read Feb 70
followed 2 months later(april 28 1970)by the letter requesting people wear buttons.
|By EviI (Evii) (spider-wo044.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Tuesday, October 09, 2001 - 10:54 pm:|
I'm made to understand that there were a lot of dates on which major developments occured in both the Manson & Zodiac cases. I have a hard time believing that that's a coincidence, if so. Can someone please point out specifics?
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p173.as1.clonmel1.eircom.net - 126.96.36.199) on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 03:51 am:|
That information comes from the book,"Helter
Skelter" to put it in context,Quote:-
"The underground paper Tuesday's Child,which called itself the voice of the Yippies,blasted its competitor the Los Angeles Free Press for giving too much publicity to Manson-then spread his picture across the entire front page with a banner naming him Man of the Year.The cover of the
next issue had Manson on a cross.
Manson posters and sweat shirts appeared in psychedelic shops,along with FREE MANSON BUTTONS".
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (spider-wg084.proxy.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Saturday, October 13, 2001 - 05:39 pm:|
I see the Zodiac button letter 4/28/70-which on the face of it, makes no sense-a tie(albeit subliminal) to the Feb.'70 articles referring to people wearing "Free Manson" buttons in S.F. and elsewhere.
I also note that Z mentions "black power"(of course-my guy)"Melvin Eats Blubber",etc.,but not the recent news about people wearing Manson buttons.Also,I believe,it's another-one of many- attempts to control the people of the N Bay to do his bidding.See posts.FYI
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (spider-wg084.proxy.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Saturday, October 13, 2001 - 05:53 pm:|
I have made that assertion.I have posted on this subject and my book has a great many references to Zodiac letter/activity/dates and Manson events in L.A.
As a matter of fact,both Zodiac and Mansons people started at the same time and articles about both sets of crimes,etc.,appeared in newspapers in N CA,L.A.,and across the country.
Mansons order to start Helter Skelter and Zodiac demanding front page coverage,along with his murders,is during the same period.I refer you to my posts and book.
|By EviI (Evii) (spider-mtc-ti061.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Sunday, October 14, 2001 - 07:27 am:|
Howard, I definetly intend to order your book. I have a ton of reading in front of me, & that's not even counting assigned reading (I'm in college, so I get a lot of that, too). But I do look forward to reading what you had to say. No doubt you'll have fleshed out theories that I'm still forming.
|By EviI (Evii) (spider-wo032.proxy.aol.com - 18.104.22.168) on Sunday, October 14, 2001 - 04:59 pm:|
Howard, on which thread & around what dates did you post the information re dates that were significant to the Z & Manson cases? I'm interested in what you had to say, but I don't want to have to sift blindly through every subject header looking for it. I know, it'd be useful to look through old posts. Actually, I did, before the first time I posted.
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acb4db37.ipt.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Sunday, October 14, 2001 - 06:09 pm:|
I would suggest e-mailing Howard.
Click on his name for the address.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p51-232.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 126.96.36.199) on Tuesday, December 31, 2002 - 03:47 am:|
The following questions came to mind with respect to Davis's arrest the day after Stine was killed.
Do you know if Davis was photographed upon his arrest on 10/12/69?
Was the ranch staked out before the arrest?
You state the he was in Las Vegas on this date..was there any record of where he stayed while there?
Were there regular flights out of S.F after midnight?
Thanks if you can.
|By Ed N. (Ed_N) (acc24a48.ipt.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Tuesday, December 31, 2002 - 12:32 pm:|
Lapumo: from Helter Skelter, we are told the raid on Barker Ranch occurred over a 3-day period (p. 101), presumably October 12-14. Davis is not very prominent throughout the book, however, and is not mentioned as having been arrested during the raid, but then, most of the 24 arrested weren't listed by Bugliosi either.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p50-246.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 184.108.40.206) on Tuesday, December 31, 2002 - 01:13 pm:|
Thanks Ed.I have read that one.Howard does claim this in his book though.It strikes me
that we have a great advantage here with this suspect, that we do not have with the
others.We actually know where he was shortly after one of the murders. Hypothetically
speaking,the night before he's in San Francisco on washington and Cherry at 10 O
clock.He's got to get a fight to Las vegas!
Earliest,is possible midnight.I don't know, I am only speculating but were there such regular flights at that time.
If he's caught at the ranch unaware's,one would think some evidence may have been recovered.
There is also a picture of Davis in Howard's book,taken in 1969.He has substantial facial hair.A picture in 1970 shows him with a full beard.
It may boil down to something as simple as that,but for me, I would find it hard to explain
if Davis was pictured with a beard on October 12th.I fail to see how witness did not pick up on that the night before.There's also a question of when he could have wrote the letter.
|By Ed N. (Ed_N) (acc340d0.ipt.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Tuesday, December 31, 2002 - 03:05 pm:|
It takes roughly 9 hours to drive from Napa to Las Vegas, so it's probably about the
same from SF to Death Valley. Even if Davis didn't fly to LV, he could easily have left SF
immediately after the murder and been at Barker Ranch in time to be arrested the next day.
If he was seen in LV on the same day he was arrested, that would definitely suggest he
flew there, because it makes little sense to drive from SF to LV, then back to DV.
The pic of Davis in Helter Skelter was presumably taken after his arrest, as he has the "X" on his forehead; he's got some stubble in that one. When he gave himself up for arrest in December 1970, a picture of the event shows he had a beard then. I don't know what he had on 10-12-1969.
As for the letter, it could easily have been dropped in the mail by another Family member or friend in SF so that it wouldn't appear that Davis had anything to do with it, since he was supposed to be in DV the same day it was mailed (but had been arrested instead).
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p51-195.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 18.104.22.168) on Wednesday, January 01, 2003 - 08:52 am:|
I agree that driving does not make sense when he does not appeared to have stopped at
the ranch en-route.I would have to say though, that if it were shown that Davis did fly
out of SF that particular night,it would be highly suspicious.
As for the letter or anything else it would all boil down to timing for me.I'm still not satisified with the notion that these could have been smuggled out of any Jail.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p50-110.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 22.214.171.124) on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 05:02 am:|
Can you add any more detail to any of the points raised above please? The facial hair is particularly interesting.Of all the available photos of Davis during the time of the Zodiac killings,he appears to have facial hair.Also on page 268 of your book, you actually show the SF composite with facial hair as comparison for a 1969 photo of Davis.
I could understand if Zodiac was seen with Facial hair the night of the Stine Killing and to not have so the following day.
However what we appear to have is an arrest picture of Davis the day after Stine was killed, with substantial facial hair.Something witnesses did not pick up on the night before!
It's the one thing that also stands out on Ryan's site with the "morphing" of these pictures.
Anyone any thoughts on this?
|By Tom Stout (Tom_Stout) (dialup-126.96.36.199.dial1.sanfrancisco1.level3.net - 188.8.131.52) on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 06:59 am:|
That idiot Manson follower?
Does he have the brains to create a complicated cipher?
I would suspect not.
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (150.philadelphia04rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 184.108.40.206) on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 10:24 am:|
Hair may be to Davis as the lack of hair is to Allen. It all depends. It's hard to see how he could have a crewcut and a clean-shaven mug one day and have long hair and a beard the next. The other way around would work, of course.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p50-45.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 220.127.116.11) on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 11:28 am:|
He did actually have a crewcut,the long hair didn't come until the following year.
"Hair may be to Davis as the lack of hair is to Allen".Perhaps, but not at this juncture.The point being, if you have the hair,it cannot be disguised.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (18.104.22.168.lcinet.net - 22.214.171.124) on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 03:07 am:|
In answer to your asking for more details...I shall be very happy to supply even more material(!).
We don't know for certain where Davis was 10/12/69.It was said he was in Las Vegas.What is known is that he drove up to the cabin around 6:00 PM on the 12th and was arrested at 6:30 PM.
Amazingly,at around the same time, Manson and his ex con friend, Bill Vance approached the cabin.Just why CM left his group around the 10th is considered to CM researchers a 'mystery' as it was imperitive he be with his people due to the situation at the time.
I was lucky enough to speak with a park ranger, by phone,who was there when they were arrested.He told me he was only a "few feet" away from Bruce Davis that evening and could see him clearly.He said his hair was fairly short and that he had some facial scruff and he noticed a potbelly.
LT.Hurlbut,who helped organize the raids,wrote me(I gave him some background material on the Hurlbuts)and said he was there too and could confirm Davis didn't have a beard,etc.He said CM was the only one with a beard.
Both men told me(by letter and phone)that it was Davis that they thought was the 'most sinister of the bunch.'Members told me this also.They were all fearful of him.
There was a large arrest on the 10th and a large number of people on the 12th ,so it was a lot of booking!
Two photos of Davis with a beard were taken in 1970,not 1969.Another was taken of him with a moustache in '70.BD wore a crew at the end of 1970.He constantly changed his appearence according to former members I have contacted.The same for CM.
The police found "wigs" at the cabin.
Photos and other evidence has vanished.This is not new.
I did get police reports from a source that was connected to the arrest.Davis' prints survived and I got those.
Now, Zodiac wrote that he would 'not tell what my disguise consisted of and that he looked like the description passed out,but that he actually looked entirely different without the disguise.'Nice.
He said he disguised his face and possibly his form or outer appearence.
I contacted a makeup artist(no Tom and ED I won't give you his number!)from the 60's and he said that it would be easy to 'cover' a moustache and or a beard.He would mat it down with spirit gum and place latex over the area and he said at night no one would notice.There were plastic forms and clay that could be fitted on the face too.
Get books on make up in the films-it's amazing what they can do.Anti detection books had many tips just like I have given.
A former follower told us she was astounded how that Manson, with just an eyebrow pencil, could change his facial feaures.He learned a lot from the drama club and prisoners,etc.,on disguise. Mr. Latino Romero,the actor,was in the Batman series,and he refused to shave his famous
moustache, so they covered it up for the entire series!
There are 'problems' with all the suspects Lampumo.GS for example, places a wig on ALA so he will fit Zs description.
Now,Zodiac wrote the letter he sent to the Chronicle (taking it at face value)at sometime on the 12th"The S.F. police could have caught me LAST night".This would be the 11th.It was mailed on the 13 th PM.
Davis was in jail on the 13th and was released on the 27 th.
The scenario,and we all have them for our respective suspects,which I see is that the letter was mailed for Davis from S.F.Sandra Good, a hardcore follower, tried to get a young man to mail death threatening letters from S.F. to "get a S.F.postmark" on them,but he revealed the plan and she was caught.She did time in the federal facility in Pleasanton,CA.
Members travelled to San Francisco constantly by car and plane.It was only around 12.00 to fly to either Oakland or San Francisco and it took about 50-60 minutes.
The letter seems like a rush job and is short.Davis would be somewhat of a hurry on the 12th.It came fairly fast after a Z murder when you consider that it wasn't until 7/31/69, Z sent his letters claiming responsibility for the 7/5/69 187 and even longer in his reference to the 12/20/69 murders!Manson was into alibi dates too.
Considering the Davis timeline -it is a point of interest for me.
The Bates killer sent his missive about a month later.
Something seems to have happened to Zodiac AFTER 10/11-13/69 because he sends two letters and in the 11/9/69 letter he says he is CHANGING his methods of killing,etc.He certainly frees himself up!He doesn't have to announce his victims and offer proof of how he killed them,etc.
The Sorry I haven't written card of 11/8/69 is suggestive to me.
Not only this,but he now,after all that time since the Stine murder on 10/11/69,goes into great detail about the crime!This would be when Davis had more time.Why wait this long to give all those details?
Around 11/24/69 Davis flies to England again(he flew there in late December of '68 just when his father dies-trigger for the 187 in Benicia?- and certain of the Family were in Sacramento, which is near the Vallejo area-they have said they went all over the Bay area in December of '68-then left near the end of the month).
Now, all is quiet with Zodiac until Belli,a famous LAWYER receives a letter from Zodiac amazingly pleading,yes,even begging for his help and indicating he is extremly depressed.This is very much out of character from what we have seen and read from him up to this time.Why?
Again,my scenario calls for a legal disaster in the Family.On December first(Davis returns just around his time,the police announce they have solved the Tate murders.Manson has been sent to L.A. to stand trial.Others are going to be tried.Atkins turns states evidence.They find one of the murder weapons,a .22 on the 18th and on the 20th Z sends his pleading letter for legal help to the great Belli!Perfect timing for my set up.It fits.
It doesn't prove my guy is Z,but it shows that the situation he finds himself in as well as his god and leader,Manson, including his friends,etc.in December, fits the emotional climate Z reflects in that remarkable letter.
I would not expect another Zodiac letter and or hit until things change with my guy.
In 1970 their confidence goes up and Manson and the others now feel they will 'beat the rap'and this was in the first few months of that year.
NOW,comes a letter after an UNEXPLAINED gap of silence.
The paper used in April was now a cheap variety,unlike the expensive Eaton bond used in the past.My guy is still on the run at this time.
Davis surrenders to the LAPD 12/2/70 after a series of Z letters and cards.
I would expect a slow down again from Zodiac.ONLY two very short missives are sent in March of '71 and none till 1974!A postcard(which many believe Z didn't create-so that leaves only one communication!)and a terse letter to the L.A.Times in Los Angeles where my guy is being held.Also,for the FIRST time the postmark changes -there are changes!
Next, how did Davis mail the letter/s if he were in L.A.County jail?
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p51-124.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 126.96.36.199) on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 08:11 am:|
There's a picture on you site showng Davis in 1969.He has a crew cut and a "light beard" it's a bit more that scruff.The caption reads "Davis in 1969 after the Attack" (Stine).
How long "after" the attack is this picture taken?
The next picture of Davis we see is in 1970.This photo shows Davis with long hair and a long Beard.
One is late in 69 the other in 70.At face value(pardon the pun)the second appears to be a natural progression from the first.Davis may well have changed his appearence often,however to grow hair and beard to that lenght takes time.The guy in John's car was clean shaven.It's not impossible
of course for him to grow a beard shave it for the KJ outing and then start growing it again.However he was on the run by this time and having a beard had it's advantages.Also there is no picture during this time that show Davis without some kind/amount of facial hair.
While it may have been possible to use make up to "cover -up" a beard at that time,I still find it a stretch.Not in and of itself.However when you consider that there were "wigs" recovered from the ranch,why cover up the beard and not disguise the crew cut.It all appears over elaborate as does the "Alibi".However, I could well be wrong. The information surrounding these couple of days is very vague.One imagines the whole case against Davis could strengthen or fail here.The necessary information must be available.
|By William Baker (Bill_Baker) (lsanca1-ar16-4-47-007-028.lsanca1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net - 188.8.131.52) on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 12:39 pm:|
It bothers me that booking photos of Davis at the time he was arrested and jailed on
10-12-69 were "lost." I know of no police agency that maintains a custodial
facility that doesn't take booking photos with a camera which creates a negative for file
use. However many prints are made from it and subsequently lost or misplaced, the negative
remains as part of the permanent record of the arrest/booking for that individual. I
suppose it's possible that the negative was somehow removed from the file and never
returned, but this seems quite unlikely, knowing how zealously guarded and strictly
accounted for these items are. And, if my memory serves me, "mug shots" are
routinely copied to the State, along with the rolled fingerprints taken at booking.
Recognizing that obtaining mug shots from a municipal or state agency is not an easy task for non-police requesters, with all of the demonstrated resourcefulness among many of the posters here I find it hard to believe that something as non-sensitive as a mug shot couldn't be acquired.
I tend to agree with Lapumo that if Davis had a beard of noticeable length the night of 10-11-69, elaborate cosmetic alteration notwithstanding, that is a very strong indication, indeed, that he was not the killer. I can't shake the suspicion that Z's level of exposure that night was unparalleled in his earlier crimes, and the potential for capture far outweighed the lengths Davis would have gone to disguise a beard that he just as easily could have shaved prior to the cab ride.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p50-194.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 184.108.40.206) on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 12:32 pm:|
Did find one "Mug shot" at-
The one of Davis is in set no.3
|By William Baker (Bill_Baker) (lsanca1-ar16-4-47-007-028.lsanca1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net - 220.127.116.11) on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 12:48 pm:|
I'm not saying that there aren't plenty of mug shots of Davis out there, but where's the one taken of him at the time he was booked on 10-12-69? How he looked then is of interest, not how he looked before or since.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p50-194.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 18.104.22.168) on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 01:03 pm:|
Again,details are vague.Here's a link to another,it's the same one as Howard has on his
The caption on Howards site reads "After the Stine attack".This photo was apparently taken in 1969. I can only assume if Howard can state what he has then he knows exactly when this was taken.
I believe what you have in these two photos is one taken in late 69 the other sometime in 1970.
Considering the average Hair grows at a rate of half an inch per month!!!!!
|By Classic (Classic) (cache-dr05.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 03:20 pm:|
Lapumo, I checked out all the mugshots in your link. What Ivy League college yearbook did those photos come from? LOL Oh man, what a group of winners there. Classic
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (126.96.36.199.lcinet.net - 188.8.131.52) on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 09:04 pm:|
It's my B day so this will be brief.
After some faxing to certain people the photo that they say matched Davis at the time of the arrest is found in my book on page 273(glad you can look it up!)the one on the left.I dug up the photo(which is supposed to be the one taken in relation to the 10/12/69 raid) and it shows a fairly clean shaven Davis, and so much so you can see the pock marks on his chin and neck(by 3/22/70 when KJ says her abductor had 'pock marks' on his chin-by then those sores PW saw on Davis in Oct.'69, would have healed).
I can send the Davis photo as the copy in my book does not do my contention justice) to you and you can see for yourself.I will need an address so please e me.
There are so many components that I have to refresh myself when under attack by two posters!In Watkins' book on page 233 he says about Davis, who was seated across fom him"...some of the sores on his[Davis] arms had healed,but new ones had erupted on his neck,just under his chin."This was in October '69 just before the raid.This indicates that Davis was shaved enough that Watkins could see sores on his neck,including his chin.If he wore a beard he could not have made this observation.This jibes with what the park ranger(by phone to me) and others have said about Davis' appearence.
Now, his hair is somewhat long,but if we believe what Z said about wearing a "disguise"(and all that it 'consists of'-which could indicate it was more than a pair of glasses) then Davis -before the the Stine 187,could easily have placed spirit gum or vaseline on his hair, then placed a latex scull cap(I have one )over his slicked ,matted down hair and then on goes a crew cut wig.They found wigs there.You can cut a wig to match a crew cut style-no problem.
I checked a store Davis lived near and they told me they sold crew cut wigs since 1968.
I counsulted with a makeup artist from that ara and he told me this was a very easy thing to do and would give the appearence of a crew cut and at night it would have been difficult to really notice.
GS places wigs(BH observation at LB-including the peeper as seen by the thre girls and the Stine hit)on a very balding ALA and even a beard at the RS library(I could to on a clean shaven Davis if he had wanted to cover over the fact he was clean shaven to do an albi-which CM was big on)so I can do the same.
I think Z was right when he said that without the disguise he looked 'ENTIRELY different.'
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p50-108.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 184.108.40.206) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 06:32 am:|
Happy Birthday Howard,hope you had a good day.
I don't have much time now either so just a short post.I am disappointed you considered my post an "attack" on you,it certainly was not intended.
I noticed something i thought could have a bearing on the case so I posted. It was legitimate and fair.My observations were based on information you yourself gave out.
I think anybody who looks at the same picture in your book and on your site compared with the SF composite (which also has a beard added) will draw their own conclusions.
Both clearly state "Davis in 1969 after the attack". The implications are obvious.
It now transpires that not only had Davis facial hair but also a full head of hair on the date of his arrest on the 12th.
No need to post the photo,there is a link to it on this site already. It's on the "wanted poster"
on Jim Nelson's site.Under General discussion...Blast from the past..Mansonmurders. For anyone interested.
|By William Baker (Bill_Baker) (lsanca1-ar16-4-47-007-028.lsanca1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net - 220.127.116.11) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 12:46 pm:|
Howard, a (now) belated Happy Birthday. Keep that up, and you'll some day be as old as
I, too, would be disappointed if any of my posts regarding BD's appearance on 10-12-69 would be considered as an "attack" on you or your position. You and I have always been able to differ on various issues with due respect and diplomacy. I felt that the presence of a beard, notwithstanding the possibility of theatrical disguise, would be a reverse smoking gun, tending to exclude BD as a viable suspect.
It is my suspicion that there already exists, within the totality of information currently available but not developed, one or more nuggets of conclusive fact which would eliminate every one of the known suspects, including Allen, TK, BD, Kane, etc., except for the one that truly is Z. In other words, a veritable mountain of circumstances may exist to suspect each of these men, but it would only take a single pebble to exonerate any one of them. It's a matter of recognizing these exculpatory factors for what they are, even if a long-held belief must be abandoned in the process. And who would be best able to find and recognize such factors than the very people who have devoted the most time and effort to gain the greatest knowledge of the particular suspect. You are one of the few people here who passionately believes in your choice of suspects, yet is able to maintain an open mind to other, perhaps iconoclastic, possibilities.
|By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (18.104.22.168) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 05:12 pm:|
Happy Birthday Howard,
I do not have time to post anymore as I am teaching too many classes at both the high school and college level but I still read the board occasionally.
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-139-118.client.attbi.com - 22.214.171.124) on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 01:23 am:|
Howard, I thought you promised me that you had taken care of Sylvie...how come she's back?
|By Ed N. (Ed_N) (acc3364b.ipt.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 02:01 pm:|
Things were so nice for so long...
|By Sandy (Sandy) (adsl-67-122-213-103.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net - 188.8.131.52) on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 07:07 pm:|
Howard,Sorry I missed your B.D. I hope it was a happy one. I was waiting for my phone to ring when you were in town. I had the cake made and the hot tub ready !
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p51-161.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 184.108.40.206) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 06:11 am:|
Looking again at the Wanted poster on Jim Nelson's site, the picture on the left shows
Davis in 1969 after his arrest at Barker Ranch.We have already established that in order
for Davis to be Zodiac ,he would have had to be wearing a "crew cut wig" and
some kind cover for the facial hair on the night of the Stine Murder.
Another possible problem comes from the detail on the poster. One assumes that Wanted Posters would contain the most recent description/information on a suspect.This poster was issued in late 69 or 1970.Therefore the most up to date information on Davis's description would have came from how he looked at the time of that arrest.
The wanted poster puts him at 5ft 7ins and 150 lbs.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (220.127.116.11.lcinet.net - 18.104.22.168) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 05:59 pm:|
It is Bill Nelsons posting, not Jim Nelson my webmaster.I have already explained Davis' appearance at the time of the arrest.
Some of the photos that have appeared in books and on sites are a mixture of different arrests at different times.Several of them,like Davis, were arrested at various times!
All I can tell you about weight is from the descriptions of others.L.A.Times reporter on 12/2/70 "husky."Susan Atkins,"muscular",Paul Watkins "thick set"("large face",Park Ranger,'stocky' with "potbelly,"etc.,etc.
It is appearance, NOT actual weight that counts.NO witness had a scales on site.They tell us what they thought he LOOKED LIKE!
Height, in bare feet, is 5'7".With shoes or boots about 5'8'.Others said he was about 5'8"or 9".
Incidently ,one can always go up in height with boots/shoes and especially with lifts, but never down!
Now, of interest is the fact that Zodiac BEGAN writing AGAIN just after the black Muslim slaughter(called the "Zebra" killings as they killed white people)in S.F.Even Toschi believed that is what'smoked' Z out.
CM had told Davis that it would be the black Muslims(with weapons from their "basements") that would arise and start killing whites in S.F. and then other places.I can give you lots of quotes on this.
I believe,from my take, of course,that when Davis heard the news as to what was going on in S.F.- and it was all over the news-he wrote that short"note"as Zodiac called it.They were to "program" the public sublimlinlly in any written word and 'spread fear by murdering select victims.'
I think Davis felt that it was finally"coming down" as they used to say about a black/white race war with Muslim involvement(this is why they were told to do 'murder white people at random'so blacks would be blamed)
GS brings out on page one of Zodiac,that Vallejo had race problems,etc.(see reference) and I think CM and BD heard of this as they knew people in Vallejo and Benicia.The Black Panthers had an office there as well as the Hells Angels whom he was trying to enlist in his plan.
It doesn't matter what other places were experiencing,this was from THEIR perspective, with their limited crazed view.
CM was 'distracted and detached' while some of them 'drove all over the Bay area.'Watson could never figure what was wrong with CM as he seemed as though he was trying to 'come to some kind of decision.'BD was in Berkeley.Tex had never seen him in this state before.This was December 1968, according to Paul Watkins.I believe(also based on informants)that CM was contemplating starting his 'war'at this time.How did he want to do it?Kill whites in a seemingly random way and "wait" for the whites to respond to the murder of innocent people.They assumed that the whites would automatically assume it was blacks that did it.
I see this at LHR.They wait.No response, so they/he hits again on a major holiday along with a kick off series of letters and a deadline of August first '69 as given in the Z letter.This is just when CM told them "now[August] is the time for Helter Skelter."My book covers all of this.
Remember,this is what they believed, as crazy as it sounds.I just developed a scenario as I researched the case with the CM theme.The 'whole Zodiac case is totally crazy' said one professor- 'or was it?', as he said!Was there a 'master plan' he contemplated.I say there was and this is it, but most say no.This is one theory on the Z case and there are many more suspects and theories.
I was not the first to try and link CM to Z.Dave Peterson tried to prevail on some of the detectives to investigate a link to CM and they refused-they were NC land locked.
He was the first to suspect a connection and he fully accepted my more developed presentation and worked with me up till his health failed.
The former DA of INYO County, even formed a loosely knit group to search for a Z CM connection.He was VERY firm there was a link.I visied with him prior to his untimely death in Bishop, CA.He would not give me a copy of his file.He was going to do a working paper,etc.I could not get this file after his death.Long story.So frustrating.
Peter Folgers two detectives that he hired to investigate his sisters murder were supposed to have found links to the CM and Zodiac,but the person who has this file will not give it up.There is a "MS" about this research.That's all I will say on this topic.
We are so used to the Zodiac case we lose sight of just how "bizarre", as one writer called it,the case really is.
Note the kidnap of the Hearst girl by the black led SLA in '74 and the Z note that refers to the SLA.See my posts for its authenticity.Peterson firmly believed it was a Z missive.
The final series ended with the July 8 1974 letter.Note the change in tone in all of the '74 communications.This was the year CM expressed he had a "new reality,"when he says violent movies should be banned,etc.-the Citizen letter-which matches the Z letter contents.This was all after the Zebra episode died out.
One detective said Z may have stopped because he "got religion."Well,Davis did in the early fall of '74 and he told the CM group not to write or visit with him any longer.He sent their letters back as he got them.I feel he realized there would be no race war and after the Zebra violence ended it was all a myth.He began the study of the Bible at this time.After this we have Zilence from Zodiac.All one big FYI only!
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (22.214.171.124.lcinet.net - 126.96.36.199) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 06:04 pm:|
Forgive my spelling errors(like subliminally!),etc.When I am at work I have a lot of distraction and sometimes I am just plain careless.No excuses though.Sorry evtieryoene!
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p50-204.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 188.8.131.52) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 08:47 am:|
Yes Howard,Bill Nelson,my apologies.The general point here is that we have a
"window" surrounding Davis's arrest at Barker Ranch which could offer much by
way of hard facts.There is an arrest a description,known movements etc which gives us an
advantage with this suspect that we do not have with the others.
You have "explained" Davis's appearence at the time of the arrest in that the arrest photo is the one on page 273 of your book.No problem there,that too is the one I am referencing.
There is a great difference between what Davis could have done and what he actually did in terms of evaluating him as a suspect.By that I mean, we have many generalisations with respect to what he "could" have done in a general sense.At different times he could have worn some disguise,a wig,glasses,bulky coat,shoe lifts etc etc.However, now it appears we can actually tell what he would have needed to do in order to "fit" the various descriptions at LB and S.F.
Davis may have been "husky"on 12/20/70, that has no bearing here,neither has the other "hearsay" descriptions attributed to him at unspecified dates.
We have an official "Wanted Posted" issued not long after his arrest in October of 1969.This contains a picture and description of Davis as he was on 10/12/69.This is an official photo and description offered by Law Enforcement professionals who's business it was to gauge these characteristics "for the record".
This shows Davis with long hair and substantial facial hair.His height given at 5ft 7' and his weight at 150lbs.This is one day after the Stine murder and only 2 weeks after LB.
Now we can begin to narrow down the possibilities.
At L.B the facial features are not an issue,however what could "fit" is the greasy hair Hartnell reported beneath the hood.This does not contradict what we see in the photo two weeks later.Big problem however is how a 150lbs 5ft 7' individual could be mistaken for someone "stocky" in excess of 200lbs.At least we can discuss what he would have needed to do in order to add this bulk.
As for S.F, there is now no doubt that Davis,if Zodiac, would have to had worn a crew cut wig.He would have to had the skill to cover his facial hair with some type of semi-skilled make-up techniques.He would also have had to appear 20-30lbs heavier.
There are problems with all the know suspects and in each case we have to look as see how they fit.In this case ,now that we have found out what Davis needed to have actually done,it only raises more problems in my mind.
I've got to ask myself ,if this was about Helter skelter, what would a guy with such make up skills or access to same be doing wearing a "crew cut wig". If this was about putting the blame on Black people why did he not use appropriate disguise?
That aside, why go to so much trouble in the first place? He could have cut his hair, changed style, worn a hat or hood. Why go to so much trouble to impersonate a military type individual.
Same with johns,right down to the shining shoes.
What's that about in relation to Davis.
Only asking questions Howard,trying to make sense of something that makes no sense to me at this time.
|By Alan Cabal (Alan_Cabal) (cache-mtc-ak04.proxy.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 10:28 am:|
I believe I've stated before that a flack jacket (I own one) would easily account for
the LB weight discrepancy. It's also consistent with the rest of the disguise used there.
That said, I think Howard has seriously overestimated poor Charlie, not to mention his datura-addled cohorts.
|By William Baker (Bill_Baker) (lsanca1-ar6-4-63-088-023.lsanca1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net - 220.127.116.11) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 11:24 am:|
Alan, I hardly think that Z, intending to confront and kill a romantic couple on the shoreline, would have a need for a flak jacket. If you're suggesting it was worn for appearance sake, to make him seem larger, there would have been alternatives which would not have weighed as much as flak jackets did in pre-Kevlar times. The only case where I could see such protection as remotely appropriate would have been on 10-11-69, where he took risks that could have easily resulted in a confrontation with police.
|By Warren (Warren) (w205.z064002105.hou-tx.dsl.cnc.net - 18.104.22.168) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 12:48 pm:|
I was holding the pre-Kevlar inserts of a flak jacket at a gun show over the weekend and was amazed at their weight. I can't see anyone voluntarily lugging them around unless they expected a real firefight.
|By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (22.214.171.124) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 02:15 pm:|
Very funny Tom.
While I am incredibly busy, here is the honest truth Tom: The Message Board has become so d**m BORING! Okay now we all know it is NOT ALA, (like any intelligent person didn't know that before.) Now it is all rehash, rehash, rehash.
And Ed I cannot take your posts seriously because you remind me too much of a TROLL. Plus a "historian", you are not.
On the flip side I have have several interesting chats with BH and he is a charming, insightful man. My questions (from him) have been answered.
And he told me he has NEVER once looked at this site.
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-139-118.client.attbi.com - 126.96.36.199) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 02:51 pm:|
Sylvie, if you're going to be rude don't bother coming back.
|By Ed N. (Ed_N) (acc1f0d2.ipt.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 08:46 pm:|
Sylvie: believe you want. I have the documentation to prove that I actually earned my degree in history, and based on the quality of your posts (poor spelling, poor grammar, etc, so forth and so on ad nauseum), I have to wonder how you got yours (if you even have one). Plus, I don't believe I've ever taken you seriously, because you remind me too much of a mean-faced, clip-haired, sexist, man-hating liberal feminazi.
|By Alan Cabal (Alan_Cabal) (cache-dr05.proxy.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 03:29 am:|
I agree with you, Bill, on the absurdity of Z choosing a flak jacket for protection;
however, the notion of wearing one to add weight and bulk is not outside the realm of
Heh, "feminazi": Rush Limburger's sole contribution to American cultural discourse. I love that word, but I hate that bloated gasbag, I really do.
I'm glad this site exists. It's a useful distraction from the ongoing destruction of the Republic.
Long Live Big Brother!
|By William Baker (Bill_Baker) (lsanca1-ar6-4-63-088-023.lsanca1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net - 220.127.116.11) on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 08:59 am:|
Alan: " . . . the notion of wearing one to add weight and bulk is not outside the
realm of possibility."
It would be one thing to wear such an item to appear larger for the purpose of disguise, or to appear more intimidating (being 5'7-8" 150-160 lbs, or of similar stature, is not, in and of itself, very intimidating, which is a good reason for brandishing a firearm), but to add weight? Why? It would be retrospective rationalization to say that it was so any soil compaction tests would be misleading. The added weight, which is considerable, of a flak jacket would slow him down in his ambulation and agility, handicapping him in controlling his captives and in effecting his escape from the scene. And there's the comfort factor which, as you must have experienced since you own one, is most unpleasant. It's one thing to posit reasonable explanations for size or other disparities in suspects who don't match witnesses' descriptions, but it's quite another to explain them away with explanations that defy reason.
Ed, I think you have spoken for many of us that resent the kind of smug arrogance and pompous superiority that characterizes a small percentage of posters here whose primary objective is to promote their own agenda and ridicule opposing points of view for self-aggrandizement, with no redeeming value to anyone but themselves. She invited this upon herself when she resorted to personal and defamatory remarks. I pity her "students."
|By Classic (Classic) (cache-rp06.proxy.aol.com - 18.104.22.168) on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 01:42 pm:|
I don't know about z wearing a flak jacket to look bigger, but if he one wore thinking he would have protection from the police shooting at him, he would be in for a big surprise. Flak jackets are not bulletproof. The most recent show I have seen about this, is called "Mail Call" with R. Lee Ermey. He was the D.I. in the movie "Full Metal Jacket". In this t.v. show, he answers military questions. One segment was about flak jackets. They had a demonstration where he shot through one no problem at all. The flak jackets main purpose was to offer some protection against shrapnel, which it did in varying degrees of success. Classic
|By Ed N. (Ed_N) (acc347fb.ipt.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 05:49 pm:|
Bill: as everyone can attest to, I'm pretty laid back and easy-going. Poking fun at
someone is one thing, but her insults were uncalled for. Thanks for your support!
On another note, would Z have thought far enough ahead to wear a flak jacket (or weight belt, as I've often wondered) to thwart a compaction test? Would Bruce Davis have known the LB area well enough to realize that such a test could and probably would be conducted? Considering that it was very hot that day (according to Narlow) and that the valley LB is in tends to be warmer than Napa, it certainly would not have been comfortable wearing anything more than jeans and a t-shirt. Wearing Z's getup must have been pretty hot to begin with (especially in the sun, since his clothes were dark), and when we factor in the flak jacket or something to possibly bulk up his appearance, the 500-yard hike down to Z Island and back up to Knoxville Highway as well as the exertion from stabbing two people, Z must have been close to overheating. If he wore a flak jacket as well, we must consider that he had to carry all that extra weight.
If Z was BD trying to look larger, he certainly chose a poor costume and a bad day in which to stab two people. On the other hand, it certainly accounts for the greasy/sweaty hair Hartnell saw.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (126.96.36.199.lcinet.net - 188.8.131.52) on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 08:37 pm:|
All I can say is that the few witnesses gave us an ESTIMATE of what they thought Z
weighed.All are flawed to some degree as our fine posters plainly show in the Archives.
We have wide contrasting OPINIONS on the height and weight of Zodiac and not one of us was on site at the time(at least I hope not!).
The same holds true for the Ripperologists for the past one hundred years plus!
I have said that Davis was described as "thickset,""muscular"(he was extremely strong)"husky","stocky... with a pot belly"and having a "large face with dark brown hair"(anyone can peroxide or dye ones hair blond and add a little red tint-come to L.A.!) with pimples or 'eruptions on his chin and neck.'You can't see this if he were wearing some thick beard.This was just a few short days BEFORE the bust in October.Not confusing at all.No beard then.There were and are,fake beards that look pretty darned good,especially at night.
He did drugs and especially speed(I think this explains part of Zs brash behaviour at S.F. and in his missives-this from a speed expert) and his weight would,no doubt,vary,but those that saw him said he looked 'husky,'etc.
A clean shaven Z,after an attack, puts on a beard as a means to have a different appearance in the presence of others- this would be a good one too.The witnesses say we 'saw him in a beard the night after the murder', so the police could be misled because they are looking for a clean shaven man.There have been cases where this has actually happened.FYI
GS puts ALA in one at the RCC library and this is his theory and it is O.K.-not beyond belief or understanding.Everything is possible here.Even a bizarre costumed Zodiac with a white cross/circle ,hood ,gun and knife(and much more!) out on a lake!Please.
Now,if you saw him at night, as all the Z witnesses did (without a costume as at LB) you would probably say or give the same description as the people that saw him up CLOSE and in the day as well as the night.
I had a friend in high school that was around 160lbs ,but you,and everyone else, described Stan as 'heavyset,''bulky,'etc.This is how he APPEARED to others,but it did NOT reflect true weight of,say 200lbs plus(my weight is 210lbs + and I am not stocky,etc.,as those that know me will attest).
Muscles can be denser in some people more than in others and even though their weight is the same one will appear 'stocky' and the other will not.
I have discussed the amateur so called compaction test in great detail in several posts and I am burned out on that issue.See my posts.
There are a number of ways one can bulk up using some sort of modality like a hunting vest and the like.Easy.A flak jacket would not be used as a bullet proof vest to be sure!They can be modified to be lighter.Anti detection books suggested weight belts and the like,if one knew the 'crime or act' was to be on soil.The author brings out the 'cops do tests on the soil to estimate weight and look for shoe/boot type,'etc.The whole purpose of this section in the book/s was to throw off witness descriptions.
Zodiac did say he would not tell us what his 'disguise CONSISTS of.'This seems as though he is saying it 'consisted' of more,than say,black horn rimmed glasses.
Z also said without this disguise,whatever it consisted of,he LOOKED ENTIRELY DIFFERENT.He seems to be saying there is an extreme on how he actually appears without this disguise.Don't believe it? fine -I do.
On this issue I can take either side and argue for a tall or shorter Zodiac or a lighter or heavier man
You can say he lied,but that is ones opinion.I can say the opposite and that is opinion.Most of what is said ,aside from known case fact on this excellent Board,is opinion and theory.
This is fine and as it should be and I respect the various views to the extent I don't interfere with others suspects.
We are NOT here to 'convert'(this is nonsense)-it does NOTHING for conviction and a firm solution-no one is authorized to adjudicate the Z case anyway;we are here to share IDEAS and remind each other of known case verities,render knowledge that pertains to the case, etc.
The truth is many of us are prejudice against a certain suspect and in favor of another(fine), so we move in the direction of high or lower height or heavier or lighter as far as weight goes,but it will NOT solve this case.
DNA could open up brand new vistas and is not fully explored in the Zodiac case at this time.I think it's only a beginning.There are many other possibilities.We just want the case cleared with hard factual data that will stand up in a court of law.Speculation and opinions can not do this.
|By Ed N. (Ed_N) (acacda6b.ipt.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 10:49 pm:|
Howard, I was just kinda thinking as I was typing, tossing out ideas. Whoever Z was, he chose a costume that certainly must have been very hot to wear for more than a few minutes at a time. I certainly haven't forgotten any of the things you've mentioned before, and since this is a BD thread, I thought it a good idea to suggest something about him in relation to the current ruminations going on here.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p50-84.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 220.127.116.11) on Monday, January 27, 2003 - 08:11 am:|
This discussion was begun in an attempt to establish "hard factual data".This data came from an official Wanted Poster,putting Bruce Davis at 5ft 7 and 150lbs the day after the Stine murder.He also had long hair and substantial facial hair,which by the way ,is styled leaving the chin exposed and also the neck.It is not a case of "no beard then".He was also a couple of hundred miles away from the crime scene.These are facts and are facts that would stand up in a court of Law.
Your post implies many things with use of words like prejudice,interfere,convert which I don't much care for.In a previous post you used the word attack.I did nothing more than ask a few honest questions. I have my own reasons for liking Allen but you will not find me anywhere on this board arguing on weight or height issues in defence of that position.Neither will you find me
arguing on the S.F composite because that's not Allen.I won't loose any sleep if it turns out not to be Allen.In the meantime I am interested enough to consider the case against other suspects.However because there is a limit to what I am prepared to believe does not mean I am questioning some suspect for any other reason.
In the thread below this one "T Kacznski-Bruce Davis,perhaps you might want to review your opening post,asking very similar questions of T.Kazcynski.After that perhaps you might want to open your own book on page 95 in which you agree and state that the following description describes Bruce Davis. 5ft 8 ins,between 135 to 145 pounds with a slightly undernourished look.That is before you go breaking any more windows in that glasshouse of yours.
|By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (cache-ntc-af07.proxy.aol.com - 18.104.22.168) on Monday, January 27, 2003 - 08:34 am:|
Lapumo, you wrote, "I have my own reasons for liking Allen but you will not find
me anywhere on this board arguing on weight or height issues in defence of that
position.Neither will you find me
arguing on the S.F composite because that's not Allen."
Why do I feel like I just got slapped across the face? My position on these issues ARE based in fact, Lapumo. Just because you don't find it relevant doesn't mean it isn't.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p51-26.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 22.214.171.124) on Monday, January 27, 2003 - 10:55 am:|
You have misunderstood me.I do find investigations into these issues to be highly relevant.However,some are not looking at facts but rather how they can get their suspect to fit.
All reasonable logic tells me that the guy at LB was heavy. I don't see Hartnell being too far out.
The height according to Hartnell was between 5ft 8 and 6ft.Because he described the pants/trousers as tight I would be inclined to place Zodiac taller that 5f 8'. I think hartnell studied this guy for some time and would have noticed a false weight distribution.That's as far as I can go.That does not rule Allen out.However as it's just my opinion I could not say concusively that someone smaller is ruled out.Neither have I drawn my conclusions because of any bias toward Allen.
It's just an honest call.There are other ones where Allen does not fit.I do not have the answer.
My point was that I'm not going to try to force him into place.If we are to accept Howards proposal that "everything is possible here" then there is no point in discussing these issues at all.I am not against Zodiac using some form of disguise, but that has to be within reason and make sense for any particular crime.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p51-215.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 126.96.36.199) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 07:13 am:|
Folks,Howard has been kind enough to forward me a copy of the Davis arrest photo.(The day after the murder of Paul Stine).It shows Davis with fairly long hair,however there is no beard,only light stubble.A copy of this photo can be seen on Nelson's site.The wanted poster,picture on the left.
|By Tom Stout (Tom_Stout) (dialup-188.8.131.52.dial1.sanfrancisco1.level3.net - 184.108.40.206) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 05:42 am:|
If Vincent Bugliosi could have proved Bruce Davis was the Zodiac, he would have
written a best selling book on the subject in a New York second!
He wrote one about OJ and he wasn't even involved in that case.
Bruce Davis is too stupid to be the Zodiac in my opinion.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (host-66-81-182-217.rev.o1.com - 220.127.116.11) on Monday, March 24, 2003 - 12:02 am:|
Tom-there you go again,mr. Z newbe, flying off the handle(no -you don't even get a
handle!)!You don't know the first thing about Bugliosi or his research, yet, you make such
At first VB did not believe Davis was or could be the Zodiac,but this was BEFORE he was slowly given evidence over a long period of time(he is very busy and you have to speak to him by 'appointment')and he began looking at him with a different perspective.He didn't know,for example, Davis lived in Riverside in '66!He admitted he knew very little about Davis (or Zodiac!) and his background ,as his 'main focus was Manson and the trial.'Gentry wrote the book and did not develope Davis any further than news articles,etc.!
I have Davis' secret prison reports and he was considered very bright by all of the interviewers,many of whom were MDs.
Also,Davis obtained his doctorate in theology and is to get his doctorate in engineering from a university that is accredited.
CMs big thing was to 'play dumb' for the police so they would feel you really were 'not capable of the crime,'etc.Davis followed this route,but intimate interviews ,not made public ,display he was not crazy or stupid,far from it.Behind the scenes CM interviews in prison(and certain other interviews)show he is very bright,as even VB admitted in his book and in interviews.
Davis was chosen by his class to be Editor in Chief of the year book.We spoke to some of his freinds and classmates and they all said he was 'smart.'He won a social science award in school and did about 2.5 years of college.He took the state Road Surveyers test and passed.There's a lot of math,etc.and not just any idiot could pass it.I suggest you go get a gov. test and see if you can pass just the math section.You might,but so could Davis!I read a first year course and it is not a cake walk.
You,like some,make Zodiac a mythic legend with a soaring IQ,but there is no proof he wasn't anything more than 'bright/normal.'Remember, one now views the WHOLE case,but when you carefully examine the case from day one and one segment at a time as it unfolded upon another-as did Z expert Dave Peterson,you come to the same conclusion Dave did- Z was no genius or even brillant.He was eclectic and eccentric and we are finding he was not as original as once thought.
The case is NOW a mass of evidence -mostly other peoples' theories -that has grown into a hydraheaded case of huge proportions.
Mike Kelleher gives a pretty darn good assesment of Zs intellect in his book and Zs possible blue collar type background.Z had a lot of luck,though very clumsy as a criminal at times,but so was Bundy and other killers,like the GR(whose luck has probably ran out!).
Yes,there has been no conviction as YET,but there are other unsolved serial murders of the past,so this does make Z a evil genius either!
I was happy that Vince wished me luck(he autographed his book for me and gave the book to me as a gift)on my case and he hopes I can develope my research further.I have.
Stop look and listen Tom,only after you put a few years of careful study on the case.
Horse and rider jump out of the gate true,but not after years of training!
|By Tom Stout (Tom_Stout) (dialup-18.104.22.168.dial1.sanfrancisco1.level3.net - 22.214.171.124) on Monday, March 24, 2003 - 09:42 am:|
It's only my layman's opinion.
I am definitely shooting from the hip on this one!
God forbid I should get brash and insult a Manson family member!
This is probably general knowledge but do you know if BD was a fan of opera?
I can't picture the Manson family dropping acid and listening to Gilbert and Sullivan.
|By Tom Stout (Tom_Stout) (dialup-126.96.36.199.dial1.sanfrancisco1.level3.net - 188.8.131.52) on Monday, March 24, 2003 - 10:03 am:|
I just saw the "Gilbert and Sullivan/suspects" thread".
It's still hard for me to picture them sitting around the ranch singing opera.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (184.108.40.206.lcinet.net - 220.127.116.11) on Monday, March 24, 2003 - 09:18 pm:|
Manson was in the drama club while in federal prison in the 60's.His old counselor told me Manson was in the Mikado.BD learned all he could from CM;so my belief is that he spoke to him about the Mikado. The Mikado fits Mansons personality.
Two of the Manson girls were familiar with the Mikado- Sandra Good(from S.F. State) and Catherine Share,who had a European background.
|By Tom Stout (Tom_Stout) (dialup-18.104.22.168.dial1.sanfrancisco1.level3.net - 22.214.171.124) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 08:46 am:|
Manson was in the "Mikado" in federal prison?
I bet he performed in front of a captive audience!
I wonder if the works of "Gilbert and Sullivan" could have inspired Charlie's song- "I get my dinner from a garbage can"?
Did any of the Manson family ever include references to the "Mikado" in the bloody messages they left behind?
Is there any record of Bruce Davis mentioning "The Mikado"?
|By Tom Stout (Tom_Stout) (dialup-126.96.36.199.dial1.sanfrancisco1.level3.net - 188.8.131.52) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 07:08 am:|
"His counselor told me Manson was in the Mikado.."
Isn't that just hearsay?
"BD learned all he could from CM.."
I guess you're right,BD is smarter then I thought.
"..So my belief is that he spoke to him about the Mikado".
An assumption Graysmith would be proud of.
I too, went to SF State and have a European background(Well Russian,are we Europeans yet?)
That dosn't mean I know anything about the Mikado.
So Vincent Bugliosi signed his book for you.
Jimmy Carter, George Foreman and Michael Caine have all signed their books for me.
That doesn't make us best buddies.
I wouldn't know the first thing about Vincent Bugliosi?
I didn't exactly fall off the cow manure truck before sitting in front of my computer.
Perhaps I'm associated with one of the largest law firms in the world, based in Los Angeles out of their sattelite office in San Francisco.
I think VB would have inside info and if he could connect Z with the Manson family, would write another best selling book. Why wouldn't he?
How about the kids that wittnessed Paul Stine's killer wiping down the taxi?
Did they see Bruce Davis that night?
I don't recall their description of the perp matching that of BD.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (host-66-81-26-185.rev.o1.com - 184.108.40.206) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 04:23 pm:|
The counselor,who has since retired,told me the drama club did the Mikado while Manson was at the prison.CM was in that drama club.There's my Mikado connection-just as I already brought out.He says CM was involved in that production and that's as far as I can go at this time.He was CMs personal counselor and knew him.CM contacted him in Washington state in '67 when he was on parole.While he was ill at one time, CM sent him a greeting card.He sent a xerox of this card to me.No,this doesn't mean we are best buddies!When he retired there are pictures of him holding the original card up for the press.CM brings some notoriety even to prison counselors!
Sandra Good(of S.F. State)and Catherine Share knew the Mikado,but to what depth ,I don't know at this time.
For example,at one time, I could not place Davis in LT,but I found confirmation he worked there.Then former Family members told me he went there about 5 or six times,but for short periods at a time.He went there once with Tex Watson.I can give many other examples of searching for evidence only to find it years later.
It is the bits and pieces that slowly fit together that can make a case.Give others time to prove their points.When I republish,I will give new info I haven't discussed as of yet.There is always a shortage of funds and time that hamper and I have to run a business,etc.
For those who sit back and harp and carp, it is an easy road to follow,the path to discovery is long hard and difficult.
What if someone does 'accept' someones Z suspect?Does this solve the case?NO!We present and hope someone will contact us with the needed info.It's happened to me several times.Others have helped Tom on his suspect,which is the most prominent one to date.That's life and research as it pertains to Zodiac.
It is true-CM taught Davis everything he knew.CM wrote me and said that he and "..Bruce started the reborn[note Zs same word in his letter] movement in 1967."Davis was his second in command.
Your having gone to S.F. State (CJBs boyfriend went there-but it is of no importance)and having a Europen background doesn't mean anything here as you are not being developed as a Zodiac suspect!
Davis was fascinated with all things British.He visited there at least three times,the earliest being in'63.The watch found at the Bates scene(much has been made of this watch being there-evidence shows it was ripped off at one strap connection,not placed there by the perp!) was a military Timex sold at a PX in GB.This is just one reason why I wanted to find any British connections to Davis.Found tons!Another is the seeming British phraseologies in Z letters.The best and most detailed references to this fact are found in Kellehers, This is the Zodiac Speaking.Tom features the book.Have you even read it? It may not interest you,but it does me.
I wasn't saying Vincent Bugliosi and I are 'best buddies'-you said that.I mentioned he signed his book wishing me luck on my efforts to link BD/CM to Zodiac.The reason I said that,is because he fomerly was opposed to any 'links' to Zodiac and Manson/Davis.Over time,as he was informed on what I uncovered,piece at a time,including new info,not yet published,he changed his mind and could see how this scenario was possible.His many questions were answered to his satisfaction,knowning that it is a work in progress,just like on every other Zodiac suspect.This case is 'unsolved'-there has been NO conviction at this time-you must know that much!
Vince has not chosen to probe the Zodiac case.He has many other literary interests and work that he does.The Manson case was enough for him.He never went to trial against Davis.It was not his case as it was on separate murder charges.Davis,he says,is the 'prime suspect' in several murders.He firmly believes Davis killed more than two people.He leaves Davis to others as he has said.
I have posted on the teen witnesses in abundance,so my surmisings(and that's all anyone can offer)are there in the Archives.I say there can be a close match,but others don't see it this way,just as I don't see some of their views on this issue.This is what the Board is all about-an exchange of ideas,concepts,views,case facts,etc.,etc.
I have come to the conclusion that there won't be agreement on Zs height,weight,etc.,unless new info comes to light.
|By Tom Stout (Tom_Stout) (dialup-220.127.116.11.dial1.sanfrancisco1.level3.net - 18.104.22.168) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 05:34 pm:|
Thank you for your very infomative response!
Good luck in your pursuit!
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (host-66-81-30-245.rev.o1.com - 22.214.171.124) on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 02:04 am:|
I thank you.