Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Other Suspects: Zodiac/Unabomber
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p51-143.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 126.96.36.199) on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 11:36 am:|
The following statements are not intended to provoke and are only for the purposes of discussion...There is no physical evidence to connect Ted Kazcynski to the Zodiac.Any similarities between the Unabomber and Zodiac can be explained because TK was familiar with the Zodiac case and was influenced by it.Ted believed in the Unabomber cause and writing for publicity was essential to that cause.
|By VSCANTU (Vscantu) (netcache-2002.public.lawson.webtv.net - 188.8.131.52) on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 12:41 pm:|
LAPUMO: I agree with the logic in your first sentece: "There is no physical
evidence to connect TED KAZCYNSKI to the ZODIAC."
and also; "Ted believed in the Unabomber cause and writing for publicity was essential to that cause."
However don't you agree that "writing for publicity was essential to that cause.", was also applicable to THE ZODIAC as well?
|By Linda (Linda) (208-59-124-42.s42.tnt1.frdr.md.dialup.rcn.com - 184.108.40.206) on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 04:03 pm:|
What real, physical evidence is there to connect any of the suspects to Zodiac?
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (241.philadelphia06rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 220.127.116.11) on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 04:13 pm:|
If TK had been simply "influenced" by the Zodiac case, I'd expect to see something along the lines of the New York Zodiac, who was most definitely influenced by it.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p51-96.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 18.104.22.168) on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 05:49 am:|
Zodiac chose to write,it was not necessary.
On the other hand it could be argued that Ted had to write.
Yes ,fair comment.However what I actually meant was Ted was not a suspect,he was not linked to Z until years later.He cannot even be placed in the state etc etc.With respect, this is not about comparison with other suspects,it's about the case against Ted.
What I am saying is that Ted would most definitely have had knowledge of Zodiac the "media sensation".Ted had already made his decision to kill for the cause.He needs publicity and remembers those things about Zodiac's methods that got him on the front page and kept him there.
My overall point is this...Ted became a suspect because of the similarities between Unabomber and Zodiac.How much of this can be attributed to the fact that Kazcynski was familiar with the Case?
How much of it cannot be explained by this?
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (235.philadelphia05rh.16.pa.dial-access.att.net - 22.214.171.124) on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 07:49 am:|
Lapumo, there is always the possibility of a copycat. Traditionally, however (and logically) a copycat operates by aping modus operandi, not criminal signature, which is a far more complicated concept with which to work. If Kaczynski had done everything in a manner identical to that of Zodiac, I'd say the chances were very high that he was only copying a predecessor. That's not the case, however. What he did was not nearly as cogent (in terms of a connection) as why he did it.
|By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (cache-ntc-af07.proxy.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 08:42 am:|
Lapumo, you wrote, "Ted became a suspect because of the similarities between
Unabomber and Zodiac.How much of this can be attributed to the fact that Kazcynski was
familiar with the Case?"
Excellent posts, Lapumo, you are touching on some elements that most definitely are poignant with regard to TK's status as a Z suspect.
If TK wasn't the Zodiac, I'd argue that he was certainly aware of the Zodiac and probably sought to emulate certain Zodiac attributes, if for no other reason than he saw Z's ability to "succeed" while living on the fringes of society.
One of the things that I have always found strange with regard to TK as the Zodiac is this: His career as a murderer seems virtually impossible. I mean, what are the odds that anyone could pull off not one, but two 'successful' careers as a wanted killer without being caught until very late in the game? The Zodiac and the Unabomber weren't garden-variety murderers, after all. By that I mean, they were both known killers who were in the public eye and very much wanted by authorities, compared to murderers who aren't known and remain beneath the radar, as it were, of public and police awareness for years or even decades; like the wealthy pig farmer in Vancouver, Henry Lucas, or the GRK.
Also, if the Unabomber and the Zodiac were one in the same, the escalation of events just seems wrong to me. How does one go from being the Zodiac, an individual who is seemingly getting farther out of control [LB, PH] at the end of his known career, to a killer who is not only much more sublime and in control, but farther detached from the public eye and his victims? Think about it, Lake Berryessa was obviously a blood frenzy, for lack of a better term, and in many ways so was Presidio Heights. Suddenly, TK retires his Zodiac persona and becomes a remote killer with an agenda? I don't know folks, I just don't know. In my opinion, Zodiac was on a collision course with self-destruction. I honestly don't think that was the case with the Unabomber.
Mike Kelleher, do you still read this board? If so, would you mind lending your opinion to this discussion?
|By Linda (Linda) (208-59-125-109.s363.tnt1.frdr.md.dialup.rcn.com - 188.8.131.52) on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 08:50 am:|
Lapumo... I think that's what's making the connection to TK harder to see; the fact
that no one picked up on him earlier (the best they had was Allen, but one of the Z's key
traits was the NEED to write. Allen didn't share that or at least I have seen nothing at
all to that effect).
No one picked up right away on the Unabomber either and he would probably still have remained unidentified if it wasn't for his brother and his wife realizing how similar the writing styles were between Ted's and the posted Manifesto of the Unabomber. (Ted seemed to have a sixth sense as to know when to lay low...when people would get close to identifying and/or getting a glimpse of him).
Too, I don't see Kaczynski as a copycat. I believe he had his own ideas. Even through his diaries in his own handwriting, he indicates that in his own "logical system" he could just hate anyone he wanted to in addition to the desire and feeling of strength to kill anyone he wanted to. These he attributed to times beginning in his youth and college years (pre-Zodiac era).
As far as being placed in the State, he was definitely a Professor at Berkley in December of 1968 (when the 1st known murders of Zodiac occurred) and although we know he resigned effective June of 1969, we don't know for sure when he actually departed his rented apartment to move on. We know at some point he traveled with his brother that summer, too. This period of time has been conveniently avoided through FBI records that are available through FOIA. And, to date, as hard as has been tried, there is no proof positive of any of his locations during dates of key Zodiac events. And, of course, that is the same with all suspects... No one can be pinpointed to a crime scene or connected directly to the correspondences (even though they may have known the areas better than Ted probably would have). As far as connection to the Zodiac correspondences, Kaczynski comes the closest because of his writing styles, need to write, known desire to taunt, and his particular media choice being the same as the Zodiac.
Just my thoughts. Thanks for listening.
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (10.philadelphia05rh.16.pa.dial-access.att.net - 184.108.40.206) on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 09:28 am:|
Scott, I think you're seriously missing the bus with the observation that Zodiac
appeared to progressively lose control. To the contrary, his latter events, proceeding
right through the letter-writing and bomb threat campaign, manifested an increasing degree
of control over what he wanted to do and when he wanted to do it. His progression was from
a killer to a maker of idle threats to a writer of letters to the editor.
Kaczynski wouldn't have progressed from Zodiac to Unabomber as part of a smooth, overnight transition. He deliberately removed himself from society in order to get a handle on his anger. Encroaching civilization set him off again and placed him on a newly-charted course.
|By William Baker (Bill_Baker) (lsanca1-ar16-4-47-007-028.lsanca1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net - 220.127.116.11) on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 09:33 am:|
TK and ALA were both, to/of one degree or another, academics, and as the imperative goes: "Publish or perish." Please, I'm just being facetious, so no counterview is expected.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p51-29.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 18.104.22.168) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 07:39 am:|
Linda and Doug,
Both of you appear to dismiss the prospect of Kaczynski being a copycat.What was Zodiac if not a copycat? Taunting letters to press and police, "yours truly" signature. Surely influenced by and or copying Jack the Ripper!
One of the things that puts me off this Z/TK connection is actually something being touted as a similarity.Codes.I imagine ones choice of code and methods of encryption would be very personal to each individual.The Zodiac codes I see are very simple and basic,constructed by someone with no great knowledge of same.
Kazcynski's on the other hand are based in Math.
They are actually the type one would expect from a
person with his background.
"The artist will see the beauty in a piece of ripe stilton, the cheesemonger will see two and sixpence a pound".
I do not think we can simply make a general point here,ie both used codes.
Zodiac ciphers had the same purpose as his letters.Kaczynski's uses of code appears to be mainly for keeping his private notes.
Until he was dead at least.
|By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (cache-ntc-af07.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 08:40 am:|
Doug, I never took the bus; airplanes are so much faster.
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (239.philadelphia01rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 126.96.36.199) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 09:43 am:|
To my mind, Lapumo, that's an odd way of looking at things. In one instance you appear to be saying that nothing short of absolute congruence will do in establishing a linkage, yet in another instance you say that Zodiac was "surely" influenced by or copied Jack the Ripper. I'm confused as to what elements of the Ripper case you find to be congruent to that of Zodiac.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p51-37.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 188.8.131.52) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 11:04 am:|
What's the quote Doug?..."Now I'm so confused I don't know where I am or what my
I'm not too sure where your heading either.
I have outlined what I think are the similarities between the Ripper and Zodiac!We can possibly add the quote from the Confession letter "I will cut off her female parts and deposit....."."absolute congruence" never entered my mind either way.
Again I'm not sure,I guess all this goes back to my original question.Is it possible that TK simply took some ideas for Zodiac, being familiar with the case.
|By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (cache-ntc-af07.proxy.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 10:55 am:|
Doug, you wrote, "[Zodiac's] progression was from a killer to a maker of idle
threats to a writer of letters to the editor."
That is speculation that may or may not represent the facts, despite clearly representing what is known about the case. Personally, I think it somewhat naive to assume the position that we shouldn't postulate beyond what is known [Z's letter writing campaign, letters to the editor, etc.] and disregard what isn't; namely, whether or not Z murdered anybody other than the known 5.
Personally, I have to insist that the letters, even/or especially taken as a whole, only reflect some unknown percentage of Zodiac's entire personality. It seems reasonable that most would have been written while Zodiac was feeling confidant and in control. Otherwise, his writing campaign would have been tantamount to building his own gallows.
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (110.philadelphia05rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 220.127.116.11) on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 04:00 pm:|
Scott, Zodiac might have flown to the moon for all we know. But in trying to analyze
the case we can only go on known facts or what we can logically extrapolate from known
facts. The facts strongly suggest that Stine was the last known victim of Zodiac, as
However, I don't think it at all improbable that at some point down the road the old demons came to life again.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p51-80.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 18.104.22.168) on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 04:11 am:|
Doug,on a seperate point altogether.Being that there's a reasonable case here against
Kazcynski and DNA is on file,why do you think no move is made to make what would surely be
a simple and inexpensive test.Especailly when they have already tested a few
Also,there is some confusing information out there
with regard to his status as a suspect.
We have heard such things as he was cleared by both Law Enforcement and FBI, that he could be placed elsewhere on five occasions.
Was it a case of they didn't believe he could be Zodiac so didn't investigate,cleared him on what you believe to be disputed evidence or cleared him on some alleged evidence never properly defined.
|By William Baker (Bill_Baker) (lsanca1-ar6-4-63-088-074.lsanca1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net - 22.214.171.124) on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 09:03 am:|
My apologies in advance, to those who would be offended, for these snide-sounding remarks, but after hearing mostly from Allenites the various reasons why the SFPD DNA comparison which excluded Allen was flawed or unreliable or based on a contaminated sample, it would prove interesting if TK's DNA was similarly compared with this sample and shown not to match. Perhaps we could then hear new and innovative reasons from Kaczynski-ites why the testing was invalid. Ditto for "ites" from all of the other suspect camps.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p50-3.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 126.96.36.199) on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 10:19 am:|
Now that's one I'm looking forward to Bill.
Again,just for fun,I wonder how many would go on record now that are willing to dismiss their suspect if there is no match.Zander are you out there?
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (213.philadelphia08rh.16.pa.dial-access.att.net - 188.8.131.52) on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 10:23 am:|
Lapumo, TK was "cleared" on the basis of fingerprints and handwriting
comparisons. It has never been officially stated that Kaczynski was cleared on the basis
of an alibi. Back in 1996 I was told by SFPD that the FBI opined that Kaczynski was an
unlikely suspect because he was domiciled in Lombard, Illinois, during several of the
Zodiac events. Domiciled, however, doesn't imply that he couldn't have been somewhere
else. In the summer of 1970 he supposedly traveled to Alaska (psych report) and in the
winter of 1971 he drove out to the western U.S. from Lombard and was missing for three
weeks--that period of time could arguably correspond with the March, 1971 Zodiac mailings.
His mother has stated that between 1970 and his leaving home for Montana in 1971 he
wouldn't stay put, and wouldn't account for his whereabouts. Additionally, throughout the
1970s he was known to "winter" in various cities, where he found part-time
employment. Winter of 1975 was spent in Oakland. His whereabouts are unknown for the
winter of 1974, but the implication is clearly that he might have spent the time working
in the Bay Area as he had in '75.
Bill, if the DNA comes back negative, I'll lose a great deal of enthusiasm for Kaczynski as a suspect. The only way around it would be to suggest that Zodiac had a helper, which I think unlikely. To my mind, the only person who would or could have helped TK in such a way was his younger brother David, who admitted to have been heavily under Ted's intellectual sway during the period in question.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p51-0.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 184.108.40.206) on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 10:38 am:|
Thanks Doug.Obviously,he was not entitled to be "cleared".Can you make any call or have you any opinion as to why this comparison has not been made? Appears simple enough!
|By Zander Kite (Zk) (gsa-24-197-136-36.sc.charter.com - 220.127.116.11) on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 02:05 pm:|
I'm a big fan of DNA and so I'll go down with the DNA-ship, if it's not TK. I'd prefer a result that is verified twice as a non-match. Once for a match is fine. When Allen didn't match my reaction wasn't...well there you go, it's not Allen. My reaction was..... bald, fat, lazy, child molester, initial DNA test is a non-match.
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (106.philadelphia05rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 18.104.22.168) on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 04:18 pm:|
Lapumo, I'm not sure that the comparison hasn't been made. But one thing to consider is that the Unabomber tests were done with DQ-Alpha and Polymarker loci, and I'm not sure whether those are compatible with the recent analyses from the Zodiac stamps. If not, they'd probably have to show probable cause and then obtain a warrant in order to get a specimen from Kaczynski. Further, I'm not sure what laws might govern the release of information obtained from such tests, certainly as they apply to a convicted felon, but also as they'd apply to an everyday citizen.
|By obiwan (Obiwan) (ciw1.ciw.edu - 22.214.171.124) on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 10:10 pm:|
One thing seems clear: If the DNA test (on multiple envelopes) do match with TK, you
can expect to NOT hear from the SFPD for a long time, maybe never. Why? Because there will
be little motivation on their part to charge TK unless they have an overwhelming slam dunk
case. If there is a match, the samples are about 100 times more tainted/less reliable than
the OJ Simpson samples, so a conviction would not be obvious.
SFPD would however look quite foolish if they said "We know who Z is, but we don't want to prosecute". So they will bide their time. If they really want to procecute they will spend about 5 years developing physical/locational & other evidence. Or if they have other things to do, given that TK is in jail, they'll just forget about it.
Just the opposite would pertain if the DNA pointed to Allen or another (living) suspect. If Allen, then they wouldn't need strong evidence to convict him, so they'd just give us what the've got. If a living & free person, they would have a strong motivation to apprehend him quickly. So I say, based on SFPD's response, (or lack thereof) we can get a clue as to if the DNA points to someone dead, in jail, or on the loose.
(ps. I realize Allen has already been "ruled out" by a preliminary DNA test. I don't consider this test at all conclusive, since which DNA was Z's DNA was not established clearly by cross checking several samples)
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (114.philadelphia08rh.16.pa.dial-access.att.net - 126.96.36.199) on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 04:03 pm:|
Obiwan, that's a good observation; I never thought of it. I guess we should remember that the purpose of law enforcement isn't to satisfy the demands of amateur sleuths!
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-139-118.client.attbi.com - 188.8.131.52) on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 11:31 pm:|
In this day and age, SFPD certainly understands the information age is upon us. If TK (or anyone else) was matched to Zodiac's DNA, word would eventually get out and SFPD knows it.
I would expect an immediate press conference followed by a much-celebrated closing of the case.
|By Linda (Linda) (208-59-124-154.s154.tnt1.frdr.md.dialup.rcn.com - 184.108.40.206) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 03:40 am:|
Obiwan... I agree with your assessment; however, I would hope that they would want to put an end to this mystery saying that they solved it. I tend to think that they can't deny looking into checking the recovered DNA out against TK's... What do they have to lose? If it doesn't match or isn't inclusive, what harm is there in saying so...?
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (220.127.116.11.lcinet.net - 18.104.22.168) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 04:24 pm:|
I have three letters from TK.I would be happy to turn over one of them for analysis if they requested it.
Since he is your suspect(as you know I have stayed away from other peoples suspects),it would be up to you to present them with the offer.I want the letter back to be sure,but they could have it for as long as they need it to do a proper comparison.
The reason I say this is because an FBI Agent took my Davis letters for a DNA analysis and after a long time,complete with several entreaties from Dave Peterson,returned them with "it was blocked at the top", so no analysis was done!We both were quite angry over the situation.
There is nothing in my TK missives as to content that would have any bearing on the Zodiac case.I am following another route.Long story.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p51-35.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 22.214.171.124) on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 04:42 pm:|
Be interested to know Doug, if this guy that approached you guys when you began your
project on Kazcynski was offering solutions to the unsolved codes and/or clues to the
identity of Zodiac.
Still interested in the full text that accompanied
that number TK gave out for contact purposes.
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (24.philadelphia01rh.16.pa.dial-access.att.net - 126.96.36.199) on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 07:32 pm:|
Lapumo, to the best of my knowledge the number was first presented in the New York
Times letter of 1995. This letter can probably be seen at http://www.unabombertrial.com. The
opening reads, "This is a message from the terrorist group FC. To prove its
authenticity we give our identifying number (to be kept secret): 553-25-4394.
I'm assuming that in referring to the guy that approached me you're speaking of Ken Mossbaugh. Yes, he claimed to have solved the ciphers, identifying Kaczynski as the culprit. I give him no credence whatsoever.
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (pool-151-197-60-143.phil.east.verizon.net - 188.8.131.52) on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 07:01 pm:|
There's a fairly good-sized piece on Kaczynski at The Smoking Gun. One of the featured documents lists the books found in Ted's cabin the day he was arrested. Among them apparently are several concerning North American Indians, and, perhaps the most interesting, a copy of the "Prose Edda," a compilation of old Norse mythology.
|By Linda (Linda) (208-59-124-149.s149.tnt1.frdr.md.dialup.rcn.com - 184.108.40.206) on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 09:03 pm:|
Doug... I also find the hand-printed motion and letter from Ted interesting.