O'hare e-mail address


Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Other Suspects: O'hare e-mail address

By Anonymous (64.107.0.72) on Tuesday, September 19, 2000 - 12:00 pm:

For some two years now the e-mail address zodiac38
@mailcity.com has been listed to a Michael O'hare of Brookline(O'hare's former city of residence). As this is an obvious reference to Penn's theory, has anyone ever questioned O'hare about it?

By Jake (Jake) (spider-wo043.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.200.38) on Tuesday, September 19, 2000 - 03:27 pm:

Somebody using that name emailed me a while back with a body count. I would bet my left ring finger that it isn't Mike O.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Mike (spider-wa053.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.192.43) on Tuesday, September 19, 2000 - 04:17 pm:

Hi Jake-

That is a pretty bold statement, pardner, considering that that is the finger on which you have your "Z" ring welded...

Mike

By Chalandra (Chalandra) (tsway1-8.du.gate.net - 207.36.1.135) on Saturday, December 30, 2000 - 03:24 pm:

Can anyone tell me anything about O'Hare?
Birthdate or age would be good. Is he the one from Massachusetts? If so, what part? I have a theory that I will share with everyone when I find out about this guy.

By Jake Wark (Jake) (spider-wo072.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.200.52) on Saturday, December 30, 2000 - 04:16 pm:

He was born in New York in 1943, apparently destined for greatness. He attended a nationally respected high school, got two degrees from Harvard, taught there and at MIT, and served in Massachusetts state government. Now he's on the west coast, taching public policy and nuclear waste management.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Chalandra (Chalandra) (tsway1-8.du.gate.net - 207.36.1.135) on Saturday, December 30, 2000 - 06:56 pm:

Thanks Jake! I guess what I was thinking was wrong. This O'Hare guy looks like this guy named Ron Tammen that has been missing from Florida since 1953.

You can read about this and see his picture, just type in Tale of the vanishing student.

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-ta017.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.205.18) on Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 04:01 pm:

Whatever game has been going on between Penn and O'Hare has been going on for quite some time and neither one of them is particularly forthcoming about the details.

I originally thought that maybe O'Hare did the killings and Penn did the letters, and the relationship broke down over Penn's desperate need for recognition. Now, I don't know.

Penn is a very creepy guy and a liar, I know that much. O'Hare either has the most refined sense of humor I've ever heard of or is hiding something.

I'm Alan Cabal, and Penn's account of his encounter with me in TIMES 17 is very nearly a complete fabrication. It wasn't O'Hare that made those phone calls that Penn turns into a chess game, it was me, proving a point about binary morse.

That was my revenge for Penn's absurd head game when we met.

By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-td044.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.17.169) on Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 04:30 pm:

Alan Cabal! Welcome to the board. I agree with you about Penn's and O'Hare's game, and I think it's been going on a lot longer than they claim (they allegedly first met in 1990, or something like that); I believe it started back in the 1960's, and I have speculated privately with other investigators as to the nature of their pre-Times 17 relationship, but, like you, I really have no idea. Only they know for certain.

I'm glad that you have told us that Penn's account of you was mostly fabricated; I've accused him of fabricating other evidence (like his ridiculous story of how he discovered Z's true identity by going to the Napa library and researching books on sculptors/artists), and proven it by going to the same library and not finding what he said was there. Actually, it was too easy to prove, so I'm wondering why he even contrived it.

In any case, for whatever it's worth, I don't think O'Hare had anything whatsoever to do with the Z crimes. As far as Penn goes, however, I don't know.

By Jake Wark (Jake) (spider-tr073.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.201.208) on Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 08:07 pm:

Hey Alan, you up for a speaking engagement at a Zodiac conference?

I can vouch for Penn's creepiness, having been threatened by him with a lawsuit, but I'd love to hear your side of the meeting in the bar, etc.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wj034.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.198.34) on Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 09:04 pm:

Oh yeah, Jake, I'd definitely be up for that. Bear in mind that my patron saint is Hunter S. Thompson.

By Oscar (Oscar) (pool0616.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net - 209.178.190.106) on Friday, January 05, 2001 - 12:06 am:

Dear Alan,
Welcome to the board- "when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro!" Could you give me some 'juicy' details about your relationship with Mr. Penn? He is my personal favorite amongst the Zodiac kooks, although I was stupid enough to purchase 'Times 17'(egads!).
Thanks in advance.
Oscar
p.s. Phnom Penn in 2004/ Do the Math!

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wn084.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.197.189) on Friday, January 05, 2001 - 09:32 am:

At some point or another I'll dig out my old Z file and post my encounter with Penn up here. At the present time I'm deeply involved with a writing project that has nothing to do with this case, and I might be headed to Beirut for a few days.

By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (csd140.bvi3.cos.pcisys.net - 207.204.7.140) on Friday, January 05, 2001 - 10:26 am:

ALANC:
I'm Alan Cabal, and Penn's account of his encounter with me in TIMES 17 is very nearly a complete fabrication. It wasn't O'Hare that made those phone calls that Penn turns into a chess game, it was me, proving a point about binary morse.

BRUCE:
That's interesting, Alan! I am a National Master in chess, and using many of my connections around the U.S., a couple years ago I had tried to track down any chess clubs or tournaments O'Hare might have been involved with. I went through back issues of USCF rating lists as well (all the way back to 1964) to see if he had ever been rated--just to see if there was something to it. Of course, I came up with nothing. How quaint.

Bruce M.

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-tp041.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.204.191) on Friday, January 05, 2001 - 12:52 pm:

I'm a mediocre chess player. Penn must have been huffing airplane glue or something to come up with that chess game. All I did was make a series of calls at precise times (Us Naval Observatory time) that had numerological significance within Penn's theory. Penn inferred all the content he imposed on those calls.

What goes around, comes around, as they say. He was pretty damned rude to my wife and I, and I'd treated him with nothing but respect.

By Jake Wark (Jake) (spider-wo044.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.200.39) on Friday, January 05, 2001 - 02:54 pm:

Alanc wrote:
"He was pretty damned rude to my wife and I, and I'd treated him with nothing but respect."

This seems to be Penn's MO. There are a few others who have approached him politely with theories that did not jibe completely with his own, and his responses are almost uniformly shrewish.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Oscar (Oscar) (pool0123.cvx37-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net - 216.244.24.123) on Friday, January 05, 2001 - 08:44 pm:

Could it be that Gareth is..gulp...clinically insane? I would love to see a psychological profile of Penn, based entirely on conclusions resulting from a panel of clinicians being forced to read 'Times 17'.
Penn was rude to me as well. I bought his book. 'Nuff said!
Oscar,
p.s. Alan, be careful in Beirut. They get a little tense over there.

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wl014.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.199.24) on Friday, January 05, 2001 - 08:52 pm:

I'm from Camden, NJ, Oscar.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (210.philadelphia01rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 12.90.16.210) on Sunday, January 07, 2001 - 05:18 am:

In that case, Alan, be doubly careful!

By Hurley (Hurley) (spider-wn024.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.197.159) on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 10:25 am:

Hi Douglas, are you in Philadelphia?

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (37.philadelphia01rh.16.pa.dial-access.att.net - 12.90.17.37) on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 11:09 am:

God forbid.

By Hurley (Hurley) (spider-tf071.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.197.206) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 06:02 pm:

Oh, sounds like you've been there...Lol! And I can't believe Alanc is from Camden....

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wl083.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.199.58) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 09:25 pm:

Camden has to be seen to be believed.

It's like some kind of ghastly racist theme park, Crackland or something.

So what's the consensus on O'Hare? World's most advanced sense of humor, hiding something, or what? He's definitely the most interesting character in this mix, for my money. Why is he putting up with it? He even seems to play with it.

Weird. In his place, I'd sue Penn just on principle. Obviously Penn is uncollectible. but I'd get a judgement anyway. Why do y'all suppose he hasn't?

By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-td074.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.17.184) on Wednesday, February 07, 2001 - 10:15 pm:

I think there is far more to their relationship than meets the eye. Neither is willing to admit that they may have known each other before ca. 1990 when they allegedly first met. Whatever game they're playing, I think it's been going on for a very long time, possibly since the mid 1960's.

By Jake Wark (Jake) (spider-mtc-th023.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.102.28) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 04:03 pm:

Do you guys have any details on the alleged first meeting? The closest I can put those guys together is the 1987 AJ Hilder radio show that they both appeared on -- Penn was off the air while Hilder crank-called MOH.

I see MOH as toying with Penn, but not knowing him. I'd love to hear an argument for the other side, though.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-tc024.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.17.29) on Thursday, February 08, 2001 - 10:24 pm:

Jake: I have no details at all, just a feeling/hunch (as much as I hate to even consider such things) that they knew each other long before 1980 and Penn's "discovery" of the radian. I base that only on Penn's rantings and ravings about O'Hare, which seem (to me) way out of proportion for someone only "investigating" the case in an attempt to ID a possible suspect. He also makes what seem to me to be very suspicious statements about himself that appear to be related to the case, which, needless to say, really make me wonder.

That, coupled with his ludicrous, ripoff Bible-code imitation to further "incriminate" O'Hare (The second power), makes me suspect that there is much more to both than what he wrote in either of his less-than-birdcage worthy drivel-laden tripe he thinks of as a serious investigation into the Z crimes (hmm... come to think of it, that sounds an awful lot like Harry Martin too).

O'Hare's behavior is also quite puzzling in relation to the whole thing, and while I think that he is totally innocent of the Z-crimes (Penn has yet to make anything even resembling a legal case against O'Hare, other than his wild-eyed, deluded ramblings), I suspect that he too is in on whatever game is going on between them, and has been for quite some time.

In any case, just call it a hunch...

By Oscar (Oscar) (pool0938.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net - 209.178.191.173) on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 02:52 pm:

Ed, Jake et al..,
I like Ed's "hunch" because, even if we can not ascertain the exact nature or dimensions of the relationship between the two, it does seem obvious that Penn has an axe to grind. Maybe O'Hare stole his favorite Spock doll as child, or perhaps Gareth lost out to O'Hare for the hand of a maiden...who knows. I suspect that O'Hare realizes Penn for what he actually is- a delusional, frothing-at-the-mouth, synapse-melted acid casualty with no grip on reality. The more Penn raves like a rabid woodchuck, the more effective it is for O'Hare to remain silent. Why? It drives Penn absolutely bonkers. Penn wants to be acknowledged, and when he doesn't receive the acclaim he believes is his due, well it makes his scream like a three-legged lemming on a treadmill! Classic street psychology. And, hey, I know a thing or too about how to piss someone off (smile). Think about it.
Yours with Sod,
Oscar.
p.s. Penn in 2004. Straddle the Ham!

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wk061.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.198.176) on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 07:51 pm:

Besides the obvious fact of Penn being a known liar and a verified kook, what rules out O'Hare?

By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (aca6f7fa.ipt.aol.com - 172.166.247.250) on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 08:04 pm:

It would be nice if he could be placed west of the Mississippi in 1968 or 1969...

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wj024.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.198.29) on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 09:56 pm:

So the famous Arthur D. Little consulting jobs don't really check out? You've looked at this?

By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (aca2b7e0.ipt.aol.com - 172.162.183.224) on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 10:34 pm:

By the time I got interested in the case (and online), Jake and others had already been thoroughly looking at O'Hare.
My first question was, "Was he in California at the time?" Apparently not.

By Jake Wark (Jake) (spider-wi013.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.197.23) on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 06:44 am:

Unfortunately, I have no timeframe for MOH's westward travels. He admits to working for ADL in San Francisco, but I haven't seen anything that would conclusively place him on (or off) that coast during the Z years.

As much as I doubt his culpability, I'm still suspicious about MOH. He's teasing Penn -- and thus the rest of us -- by refusing to give a decent alibi for even one Zodiac event. If anyone has any ideas, please drop me a line.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (44.philadelphia08rh.16.pa.dial-access.att.net - 12.90.31.44) on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 10:02 am:

I've heard rumors that MOH was suspected in a Massachusetts murder case at one time. I wonder if on account of his he simply doesn't want to draw undue attention to himself by publicly refuting (or even suing) Penn.

By Oscar (Oscar) (pool0019.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net - 209.178.188.19) on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 05:27 am:

Jake,
I thought you were rePENNtant! Give up this silliness.
Oscar
p.s. I just knowthat somewhere there is a support group for recovering Pennites.

By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wl051.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.199.41) on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 08:26 am:

What would we do without Oscar's trenchant criticism and sparkling wit?

By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-mtc-tb032.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.104.32) on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 09:58 am:

We wouldn't have the Zodies, for one...

By Jake Wark (Jake) (spider-mtc-th032.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.102.32) on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 02:47 pm:

In a recent paper on trust in government for a Berkeley class, MOH wrote about a hypothetical situation in which "a wild-eyed character with a knife ... demand[s] your car keys." He is certainly informed enough about the case by now to recall the Berryessa murder, and I don't see this as anything but an overt reference to that incident.

Now, Penn calls this passage an admission of guilt. It fits a pattern that, to my eyes, only developed after MOH was targeted as a suspect. I don't think it's evidence of guilt, but it's evidence of something odd.

Gregorypraxas, who has spoken to O'Hare several times, says that MOH couldn't care less about Penn, and that he denies baiting him, but there have been few examples of hard-to-miss Penn-isms in latter MOH literature that indicate otherwise to me.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Oscar (Oscar) (pool0898.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net - 209.178.191.133) on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 03:59 pm:

AlanC,
I don't know what you would do. I suppose you would end up making crank calls on the phone if it was not for my cheap thrills, eh?
Love and Sod,
The Big O.

By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-mtc-tb023.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.104.28) on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 05:48 pm:

One thing I must point out is that the primary source of information about any of the alleged games that may or may not have occurred between O'Hare and Penn comes from Penn's pen. His "magnum tripus" (certainly not "opus"), Times 17, is where it may be found, and since it is obviously written with a particular bias (ie, O'Hare is Z in Penn's mind), anything O'Hare might or might not have done is therefore suspect in Penn's mind.

Case in point about something O'Hare did not do is Alan's ingenious telephone game with Penn back in the early 80's, which Penn attributed to O'Hare. Who knows what else O'Hare didn't do that got attributed to him.

What it comes down to is that, prior to the publication of Times 17 in April 1987, we unfortunately must look at anything that O'Hare is alleged to have done through Penn-colored glasses.

Any baiting by him afterwards is another story...

By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p32.as1.dungarvan1.eircom.net - 159.134.234.32) on Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 05:53 pm:

Alan wrote "at some point I'll dig out my old Z file and post my encounter with Penn up here".
Is there any chance of you getting around to this?
I would like to hear about that.
Regards

By Ed N. (Ed_N) (spider-ntc-ta054.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.16.44) on Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 10:08 pm:

It would be interesting to hear the truth for a change...

By Ed N (Ed_N) (spider-ntc-td064.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.17.179) on Monday, April 30, 2001 - 12:09 am:

Linda (continuing the thread from Other Suspects: The Writings of Michael O'Hare):

I'm sure someone's mentioned it before (besides me), but it was probably before Tom changed the board's format (and we lost all the posts from that time!). Basically, right around Christmas 1980, Gareth Penn decided that Z intended to use Mt. Diablo as the vertex of a radian he constructed in the Bay Area (based on an intentional misinterpretation of Z's own writings, where he used the term "radian" in a context completely different than what Penn divined), and discovered that if BRS and PH were joined to Mt. D by lines, it would form an angle of one radian (it doesn't).

He then decided that Z must have been a cold, calculating, mathematical genius, decided that his name had something to do with water, and that he must be a sculptor (because Penn thought Z might have been trying to create a "conceptual sculpture" in blood, based on earthform art, which was supposedly all the rage back in the 60's).

He then went to the Napa library, apparently in early 1981, and researched biographical books on sculptors. Within a very short time, he came up with the name "Michael Henry O'Hare," son of Berta Margoulies, a sculptor (I checked the same library, and, as far as I can tell, Penn made that up. He's not admitting where he really got O'Hare's name from). His name has something to do with water (H2O, or HOH, is the chemical formula for water, and O'Hare's initials are MHOH), he worked for the Arthur D. Little Company (the Pen and Dragon card imply King Arthur, as Pendragon was Arthur's family name), and on and on ad nauseum, uhhh, ad infinitum.

O'Hare was, as far as I know, never seriously considered as a Z suspect by any authorities, except by Penn (who is hardly an authority). Penn, however, was briefly a Z suspect himself, when he approached Ken Narlow with his "theory" in 1981. He was cleared, and eventually wrote two books accusing O'Hare (Times 17 came out in 1987, and The second power in 1999).

Anyway, that's the story, albeit from my point of view (ie, with my anti-Penn spin applied to it), with apologies to Jake.

By Jake (Jake) (spider-tj021.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.213.181) on Monday, April 30, 2001 - 03:14 pm:

I'm only weighing in out of consideration to Linda -- Penn threatened his way out of my good graces, and Ed and I have been through this enough to understand each other's take on the matter.

On June 26, 1970, Z sent the Chronicle a letter, a code, and a map of the Bay Area. According to the letter, "The Map coupled with this code will tell you where the bomb is set." The map, shown on this site, featured a crossed-circle drawn on Mt. Diablo. Needless to say, no bomb was ever located or detonated, and the code was never officially cracked.

Exactly one month later, Z sent another letter: its postscript read "The Mt. Diablo code concerns Radians + # inches along the radians." Because the bomb design was patently unworkable, I think it's safe to say that using the map and code to find a buried bomb would be an exercise in futility. What, then, did Z want us to find?

Penn took him up on the challenge and drew a radian, a standard if somewhat obscure unit of measure equal to 57.29578... degrees, on a piece of acetate, which he laid over a Bay Area map. With the apex on Mt. Diablo -- a direction implied by the map's annotation -- the angles legs lined up with Vallejo and Presidio Heights. In fact, they came incredibly close to the murder sites at Blue Rock Springs and 3898 Cherry Street.

Mike Butterfield charted it out with help from Ed and myself, and came to the conclusion that the angle between BRS and PH is about 58.5 degrees. Strictly speaking, this is not a radian, but considering that the Zodiac used the word in conjunction with the annotated map, I think one degree of seperation rules out coincidence.

I'd like to point out that recognizing this figure does not entail acknowledging O'Hare -- or any other genius -- as the author. Unfortunately, Penn has been so obnoxious in his personal dealings and so single-minded in his research, that most folks are understandably ready to write off anything he says as nonsense. On the radian, I think it comes down to how much coincidence you're ready to swallow.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Ed N (Ed_N) (spider-mtc-tj064.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.106.49) on Tuesday, May 01, 2001 - 03:08 pm:

Linda: I think that Jake and I have agreed to disagree on this point. I should have pointed out that, while I do not accept any of Penn's ludicrous "theories," the angle between BRS, Mt. D and PH on Z's map does approximate one radian at about 58.5, as Jake stated. However, I think that it is nothing more than a coincidental artifact of the Z crimes, something that Penn found and made the basis of his "case" against O'Hare, and has absolutely nothing to do with Z at all. But that's just my take on it.

By Linda (Linda) (207-172-76-9.s263.tnt1.fdk.md.dialup.rcn.com - 207.172.76.9) on Tuesday, May 01, 2001 - 07:11 pm:

Thanks for your responses, Ed & Jake.... Just from what I've heard and read about the "Radian" theory as created by Penn, I'm very skeptical. I would tend more to believe exactly what "Z" wrote that the map, "coupled" with the code would provide us with a given location...As Z indicated with the follow-up missive's clue, the code itself identified radians and number of inches along the radians; so I think the solution to finding the location Z wanted us to find on the map (whether it was the location of his bomb - or just a threat - or whatever)is in FIRST solving the code. Once the code is solved, it's direction would hopefully lead us to the site "Z" intended to be found.

As with many others, I don't think there was actually any bomb, per se; however, I do think that there is a solution to the code...with no-one being able to break it yet.

Thanks again! Linda!