Paul Stine Message Board: Paul Stine: Paul Stine

By Edward (Edward) ( - on Friday, December 29, 2000 - 09:14 pm:

Maybe this is nothing, but one thing that puzzles me about the initial flyer released on October 13 is that it reads like the Stine murder was only one of a string of cab driver robberies in that area. Under the MO description, it mentions that one driver (Stine) was shot, others robbed. Surely if others were robbed it had been reported to the police and perhaps a description of the perpetrator made. Were there other robberies that had gone on in that neighborhood with a gunman of Zodiac's description?

By Esau (Esau) ( - on Friday, December 29, 2000 - 09:28 pm:

I was wondering the same thing myself. Perhaps some of the other robberies were "rehearsals".

By Lapumo (Lapumo) ( - on Sunday, February 25, 2001 - 10:49 am:

Can someone tell me what time had elapsed between the time Stine picked up his "fare" and the witness report?

By Jake (Jake) ( - on Sunday, February 25, 2001 - 12:18 pm:

Stine acknowledged that he was en route to his initial call at 9:45. Some time before he arrived there, he picked up Z. The kids saw him in the cab at 9:55 and called the police at 9:58. I've never driven in SF, but maybe someone from that coast can do the math. Remember time equals distance divided by rate.

"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Sunday, February 25, 2001 - 12:44 pm:

Lapumo-According to the Assistant Traffic Manager of Yellow Cab ,LeRoy Sweet(a Frisco name!)"...the last dispatch given the victim [Stine]was at 9:45 p.m .to 500 9th Ave.apt. 1. Victim allegedly never arrived (he picked up the death fare)at the above location."The meter,which was still going, in Stine's cab read 10:46 p.m.Stine was "...examined and pronounced dead at 10:10 p.m."by stewerd Dousette of the P.E.H.# 82 ambulance.The PD report is 9:58 to when the witnesses called Dispatch.Another time is given which is 9:55 p.m.and refers to the time the incident was viewed.Two officers got to Jackson/Cherry at 10:00 p.m.These are the same officers that SFPD claims didn't speak to Z. It's much more professional to say you did quickly question a(white)man that might have given you a location of your suspect than to say you didn't! Anyway, they saw Z at 10:00.As far as the other robberies/murders go,and I saw a Special on taxi's and I found robbery- and murder- of the driver, is quite common. I do not ever recall reading or hearing that there was any proof that Z or a partner robbed a cab as a "rehearsal" to the eventual Stine attack.It's a possibility, but only that.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Sunday, February 25, 2001 - 03:15 pm:

Jake, when my wife and I were in San Francisco for the Unsolved Mysteries segment we took a cab ride from our hotel, which was within walking distance (less than a mile) from the area where Stine picked up Zodiac to another area covering about the same distance, or perhaps a little more, than that covered by Stine and his fare. The cab driver, an Arab, took us on a hell ride and we arrived at our destination within about ten minutes. The entire experience made me sympathize with Zodiac. It's one I wouldn't care to repeat.

By Alan Cabal (Alan) ( - on Sunday, February 25, 2001 - 08:27 pm:

Zodiac probably loved it. He probably asked for it. Ever see CRASH?

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) ( - on Sunday, February 25, 2001 - 11:15 pm:

Doug, describing your cab driver as "an Arab" doesn't narrow the filed that much.
Actually, now that I think about it, Stine kind of looked like an Arab. Perhaps Z didn't care for his driving.

By Oscar (Oscar) ( - on Monday, February 26, 2001 - 11:06 pm:

May Allah strike down you wretched Yankee infidels!
Oscar Mohammed
p.s.Penn in 2004. Do the clam!

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Tuesday, February 27, 2001 - 09:22 am:

I said he was an Arab primarily because he was an Arab.

By Oscar (Oscar) ( - on Wednesday, February 28, 2001 - 01:43 am:


By MDB (Michael_D_Brown) ( - on Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 11:14 am:

Have the details ever been released of how the Stine perp was initially thought to be black, than a white man? Why the screw-up?

By Lapumo (Lapumo) ( - on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 02:59 pm:

Just a thought ---One would assume that after the Stine killing,Zodiac would have had a means to escape.He would have either been staying/living within walking distance of the murder or more likely,have had his car nearby.This begs the question;How did he get to where Stine picked him up?.Zodiac was seen wiping down the area around the drivers door,leading some to speculate that he approached the cab on the drivers side.One could deduce from this that Zodiac may have hailed the cab from the other side of the street!
Is it possible Zodiac actually got a Taxi to this destination or somewhere nearby ?.Was this angle ever explored? Was there ever a check done to see
if any Fares were dropped off in the vicinity?.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 04:20 pm:

Lapumo, your post has set me to thinking. Zodiac must have been fairly bloody from the encounter. It seems logical to assume that a trail of blood led from the scene of the crime. I wonder that the police never tried to pick up or follow such a trail. Supposedly the tracking dogs would have been capable of such a feat, even if visible blood wasn't readily apparent.

By Ed N (Ed_N) ( - on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 05:21 pm:

I've often wondered just how all "seven of the best search dogs in the country" never found Z that night. One would think their handlers took them to the cab so they could pick up Z's and/or Stine's blood's scent, and follow it to wherever he was hiding. Graysmith claims that the dogs were taken to the Presidio's entrance (Zodiac, p. 92) and from there set off in search of Z, but he gives no hint that they ever got Z's scent first, but perhaps he didn't know. If they didn't, then it's no wonder he escaped.

By Eduard (Eduard) ( - on Friday, April 06, 2001 - 03:13 am:

The police saw a man entering a private residence.
Was the man carrying a real big bag ( full of bloodied clothes?)?
there is a lot of research that still has to be done...


By Bucko (Bucko) ( - on Friday, April 06, 2001 - 10:28 am:

Lapumo wrote:

"Zodiac was seen wiping down the area around the drivers door,leading some to speculate that he approached the cab on the drivers side.One could deduce from this that Zodiac may have hailed the cab from the other side of the street!"

This is a point I neglected to mention in my post regarding my thoughts that Stine may have been a deliberate target. There most likely was a reason Zodiac found it necessary to wipe down the driver side door and area of the cab. If he had planned to kill just any cabbie that night he most likely would have hailed the cab from the other side of the street. There was no reason for Z to touch anything around the driver's side door that night, unless perhaps he did lean in to talk to the driver. This seems unlikely unless he knew Stine. Otherwise he could still have talked to the driver, and just not touched anything, except the door handle he used to get in the cab. This may account for him hailing the cab from the "wrong side" of the street...perhaps he was looking for Stine in particular, knowing he frequented that area of the city...but not knowing which direction he would be coming from. It also may explain why Stine picked Z up even though he was already enroute to pick-up another called in fare.

The wiping down of the driver side door and the dashboard of the cab have always bothered me. Zodiac did not have to touch either area. If he had to wipe down the dashboard, perhaps he touched it while serching for something. As I mentioned in a prior post, Z spent far more time than he had to at the crime scene if his only goal was killing the driver and taking a portion of his shirt. Also, why would Z have to wipe down anything, if indeed he had his "fingerprint guards" on as he stated in a follow-up letter concerning the crime. Perhaps his prints were left behind in that particular cab at a previous time, or he had no fingerprint protection on.

As others have suggested,Z may have had a vehicle parked near the crime area that he escaped in, or perhaps he lived nearby. There is something unsettling about this this particular Z crime. Just my 2 cents.....

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Friday, April 06, 2001 - 12:09 pm:

Bucko, if Zodiac had "leaned in" to the driver's side window he would have been making out with Stine.

By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Friday, April 06, 2001 - 11:39 pm:

Guess that would be a "lean to"!Z expressly stated that he wiped down the cab to give the police "fake clews" to give them some "bussy work".He wanted to make them think he DID leave prints by all the smears of the wipe down.He clearly said that he wore finger guards onhis tips so it does not matter if he did or did not touch or lean on the cab!I just bet when he got home that night he peeled off ten coatings!

By Lapumo (Lapumo) ( - on Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 10:45 am:

I don't know if I would read as much into it as you have,however it does seem strange that Zodiac went to the trouble of wiping down the area around the drivers door.One has to believe that he had fingerprint guards;maybe he had left a palm print!.The police would undoubtedly check the entire cab for fingerprints,so I do not see the logic in wiping down the area to let them think he had left them.One has to ask what "fake clews"he could have left?Possibly,there was/is evidence being withheld.
I have read conflicting reports of the position of Stine's body.
1.That he was sitting in the drivers side but slumped over onto the passenger side.
2.Elsewhere,it was stated that Zodiac went to the trouble of moving him to the passenger side.
Can anyone clarify please?

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 11:06 am:

Consider that if Zodiac had entertained any doubts concerning fingerprints he could have aborted the murder and simply walked away.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) ( - on Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 12:17 pm:

Or he could have directed Stine to a location where there wouldn't have been anyone to see him wiping the cab...such as inside the park, or to the "Abandoned Warehouse District," etc etc.

Cabbies will take you where you want to go. I think Z wanted to be seen, otherwise he would have picked a different location.

By Lapumo (Lapumo) ( - on Sunday, April 08, 2001 - 09:54 am:

I have often wondered if or rather why Zodiac shot Stine at this location.Iam assuming the evidence shows that he did,however it is unclear,so I hope I'll be forgiven for suggesting the following scenario.
One would assume,given this was his most daring outing to date,that alot of thought and planning would have went into it.This combined with the questions raised ,reference wiping down the drivers side door and mirror and his apparent calm
at the scene made me wonder about this.
I am assuming that the location was predetermined
including planned escape route,probably a car nearby!.However there are major problems with this
that he surely would have forseen.He would have to abandon his plans if there were people in the area,he would also have to take the noise of the shot into account among other variables.However all this could be avoided had he shot Stine before
he arrived,pushed him over to the passenger side and drove himself!.Is this possible or does the evidence point to the contrary?It could explain a lot,could it not?

By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Monday, April 09, 2001 - 01:12 am:

Lampumo-I think it is like Tom says a cabbie will take you to where you want to go and how well they get you to your destination, and how fast(like Doug's wild country safari ride!).

There is no mystery to the location and of course, witnesses seeing the wipe down would only add to the 'fake clew'thing as per Tom.It was brazen to be sure-even Z says that if the police would have searched properly they could have "caught" him.

I am certain he would have opened fire on the two officers if they would have called for him to halt-I say he had the advantage there.

Also, we do not know what was said between Z and Stine, but Z most certainly requested Stine to take him to the stated destination. At what precise point he shot him is not known,but certainly when the car was stopped to Z's satisfaction-a rolling car could ruin a serial killers day-night!

By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Monday, April 09, 2001 - 01:15 am:

I meant to also infer the cabbie's tip depends on how fast he gets you to your precise destination.

By Bucko (Bucko) ( - on Monday, April 09, 2001 - 08:13 am:

Had Z instructed Stine to take him to a more secluded spot, Z most likely would have had to have a vehicle nearby the crime scene for escape. Attention may have been drawn to the vehicle more so than if it was parked in a more crowded area of the city. I'd bet the vehicle wasn't far from the park. Just one interpretation....of course Tom's suggestion that Z wanted to be the scene...makes some sense.

We certainly can't believe everything Z writes in his letters to police. He recanted at least twice. I don't think Z was leaving any fake clues that night.....and to my knowledge it has never been proven that he did.

By Ed N (Ed_N) ( - on Monday, April 09, 2001 - 12:12 pm:

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. If he intended to commit the crime at Washington and Maple rather than at Cherry, I think he's less likely to have been seen. For instance, Robert Hunter Jr's old house at 3799 Washington is right at the southeast corner of the intersection, and it's pretty well hidden by trees (and no one lived there at the time anyway, unless you believe Carl's ravings).

By Bucko (Bucko) ( - on Monday, April 09, 2001 - 12:22 pm:

"We certainly can't believe everything Z writes in his letters to police."

Strike the phrase "to police" in my prior post.


By Alex (Metalex) ( on Wednesday, April 11, 2001 - 03:22 pm:

I definitely agree with Tom on this one. A cabbie especially in The City will take you anywhere as long as you have the cash. I still think that an experienced psychic could add some info by just walking around the area where the murder occurred. Like I mentioned in some other posts Z seemed to be pretty observant and even if he wanted to see what or how much he could get away with the Stine killing happened after dark and not in broad daylight like LB. Maybe he did see the kids watching him and then decided to "tidy up" the mess a bit just to make sure he didn't leave anything behind. If he really wanted to leave some "fake klews" why didn't he wait until someone else took a ride in the cab and leave their fingerprints all over the door panels and handles? Instead he did a clean up before walking down the street. I don't recall him cleaning up any of the other scenes or even leaving behind any evidence like wipe marks. Maybe he wanted to "cover" himself and not look stupid to the cops and that is why he mentions this in his letter. The other thing is if he did predetermine the exact location then why would he end up hiding out in the Julius Kahn Playground and not going straight for his car to make a getaway? As I said before I have been through the Presidio Heights area extensively and even have videotaped the entire area, Z could have hid in a lot of places to avoid the police or anyone else. The other mystery is where did Graysmith come up with this BS that a man walking a dog cut in front of the cab at Washington and Maple and that is the reason he told Stine to go up one more block to Washington and Cherry before he "wacked" him? Since Z seems to become a little more bold in each one of his letters maybe with a gain in confidence he actually heard or saw the kids partying and thought it was a good place to do "his thing". If he didn't want anyone to see him he was in the wrong part of town. Does anyone know if an actual gun shot was ever heard? Since he was trying to be creative with his electric/flashlight gun sight why didn't he use a silencer on his weapon when he shot Stine? Remember he did take the time to not rip but cut pieces off of Stines shirt and then wipe down the car and remove his wallet. I would think that most people commiting a crime like murder would not waste any time in getting away from the site unless they act without total conscience like a pro hitman. According to Graysmith a glove was also left behind. I think OJ was still living in Hunters Point at the time. Just kidding!!! metalex

By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Wednesday, April 11, 2001 - 08:36 pm:

Alex-I just saw your post and there is much to be said,but for now I will say that most of this is speculation- and that goes for me too. We are observing a psychotic and a murderer in our mind we are trying to relate something that makes sense to our way of thinking!

Zodiac did not know how CLOSE a police unit was in that area and if he saw and wanted the teens to see him do his "thing",then he had to know they would call the police and a unit could have been there immediately.The police could then have confronted Z even as he was seated in the cab tearing Stine's shirt for later verification purposes!On drugs,a gamble,or was it occult thinking -'I will be protected and make my escape'? Ron Hubbard of Scientology fame,taught "Exteriorization",that is,if your mind is in total focus one can cause themselves to vanish and reappear elsewhere thus escaping from your enemy!Just for fun see what Z says in his letter"I DISAPPEARED into the park(parks-BRS, LB and now here!)a block & a half away(note Z's letters and his detailed accounts-even the '66 letter)NEVER TO BE SEEN AGAIN."Pretty dramatic!

Only one person, that I know of indicated Zodiac could have used a silencer(there were, as now, lots of magazines/books that instructed one as to how to construct a silencer or it was easy just to obtain a unit) was Mike Mageau. This seems to have been refuted by the caretaker's son George Bryant( and as Tom pointed out in a past post)stated he heard the shots clearly. I know we can get into acoustics and area reverberation, distance factors,etc., but it SEEMS to indicate Z was not using a silencer.

It would seem,in this case, Z pressed the barrel of the gun tightly against Stine's head and shot him.In hit men books this old technique is demonstrated-it will muffle the sound.I don't know of anyone that testified in a PD report or the papers they heard a shot/s. I would be interested in any info on this.

So actually, there was no reason for Z to believe that a shot was heard and units were on the way!The glove was a woman's glove ,I believe ,and was traced to an owner.O.J.-lets get him to the suspect pile -lets see ,he left a glove at the scene and there was a glove that would not fit him from Stine's cab hmmm.O.J.was reared in Oakland hmmm.

There were three crime scenes where witnesses saw Zodiac leave the area and they say it was at a leisurely pace: BRS,S.F. and Bryan's account at yep-LB!

By Classic (Classic) ( - on Thursday, April 12, 2001 - 12:26 am:

Alex: In response to your speculating if Zodiac used a silencer, Silencers are illegal and I'm sure he didn't use one because he didn't want to get in trouble. Classic

By Ed N (Ed_N) ( - on Thursday, April 12, 2001 - 07:55 am:

Are you kidding?

By Jake (Jake) ( - on Thursday, April 12, 2001 - 12:18 pm:

Howard wrote:
"The glove was a woman's glove ,I believe ,and was traced to an owner."

According to the DOJ Special Report, the gloves were a men's size 7, which is extra-extra large. I think this was supposed to be confidential info, and Graysmith was probably disinformed.

"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Thursday, April 12, 2001 - 02:54 pm:

More "fake clews?" By this time Zodiac must have known that the police had him pegged as over-sized. Size extra-extra large gloves might just have put the icing on the cake.

By Classic (Classic) ( - on Thursday, April 12, 2001 - 10:05 pm:

Ed N: yes I am kidding. My sense of humour can be hard to follow. Classic

By Ed N (Ed_N) ( - on Thursday, April 12, 2001 - 10:10 pm:

Classic: I thought so, but sometimes here on this board, it's kinda hard to tell...

By Michael (Michaelmc) ( - on Friday, April 13, 2001 - 10:46 am:

The use of a sliencer, would have been easier and more effective in the .22 pistol. Back in the 60's a person could order a "suppresser" from England they were and are used on air rifles. I had a friend who ordered one for his air gun it was for a .22 ....well his dad was a cop and when he found out he had a fit. Needless to say the it was a while before the air rifle was returned. However a Browning Hi Power or a 1911a1 pistol would be much harder to "hang a can" on. The Idea may have appealed to "Z" but i doubt he was so armed. Keep in mind in the 60's just haveing a gun was not a big deal. Even Poss of a loaded gun was only a Misd. Poss of a silencer is a very serious Federal felony. That might be a problem if he was crusing around looking to do his thing.


By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Friday, April 13, 2001 - 01:25 pm:

Just for the record, Kaczynski hand-crafted his own .22 pistol and a silencer to go with it. His words:

"A few days ago I finished making a twenty two caliber pistol. This took me a long time, for a year and a half .... Gun works well and I get as much accuracy out of it as I'd expect from an inexperienced pistol shot like me. It is equipped with improvised silencer which does not work as well as I hoped. At a guess it cuts noise down to maybe one third .... I want to use the gun as a homicide weapon."

This handmade weapon was among the items found by the FBI in Kaczynski's shack.

By Lapumo (Lapumo) ( - on Friday, April 13, 2001 - 04:49 pm:

Do you know when that was written/said?

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Friday, April 13, 2001 - 05:05 pm:

It wasn't dated, but based on the labeling of the documents, I'd say about 1980. No, I'm not suggesting that he shot anyone with this pistol (although he did shoot someone with a rifle). But it only goes to show what he was capable of doing, or what someone else, equally determined, might have been capable of doing.

By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Saturday, April 14, 2001 - 12:27 am:

Jake- Thanks for the info-at least I got the glove right-no I didn't;it was a male"s glove and there seemed to be no one claiming it-so I was 1/3 correct!Geez I thought that in Frisco' some men did wear women's gloves(and women that wear men's gloves!).

By Ed N (Ed_N) ( - on Wednesday, April 25, 2001 - 12:16 am:

Sylvie: it seemed more appropriate to reply to you here regarding Stine's religious affiliation (from Other Suspects: Paul Avery). I don't know if he was Jewish by birth, but, according to the funeral notice that appeared on page 36 in the Chronicle on October 14th, 1969, the funeral services were to be held at the First Unitarian Church. Presumably, he was Unitarian.

By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Wednesday, April 25, 2001 - 06:46 pm:

Just an FYI so get your guns loaded and ready to shoot!There were a pair of black leather men's gloves found in Stine's cab size 7 as Jake reminded me of(thankz),and also in the Stine victim section.I also note that the circumference of the Timex was 7".

As we know,Zodiac stated he left "fake clews" for the police.Were those gloves left as a clue?They were size 7 and Zodiac wrote just a short time after the Stine '87 11/9/69 "...up to the end of Oct I have killed 7 [must include LB victim]people." Now,our glove is size 7-any connection with Z's victim total in the letter?

Now,it gets wilder.In the Napa PD reports it indicates Harnell saw that the attacker had on black leather gloves-well,wouldn't it be amazing if they or similar ones("fake clew") ended up in the S.F. cab to hark back to LB? Well,that just about completes my FYI -I am donning my bullet proof vest!

By Thomas Richardson (Obaz23) ( - on Wednesday, April 25, 2001 - 07:04 pm:

I still maintain that Zodiac had befriended Paul Stine. Knew his schedule. Called for a cab. Hailed Stine down. That might explains the driver's side wipedown by Zodiac. Once inside the taxi Zodiac and Paul talk and Zodiac asks Stine to take him to Washington & cherry. The reason he was on the other side of the street was that Stine would see him better. He wanted to make sure Stine saw him. Stine stops and Zodiac comes over and leans against the drivers side. They talk. Zodiac gets in. End of Story......

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) ( - on Wednesday, April 25, 2001 - 08:09 pm:

"The reason he was on the other side of the street was that Stine would see him better."
That makes no sense.

By Bucko (Bucko) ( - on Wednesday, April 25, 2001 - 10:26 pm:

Thomas wrote: "I still maintain that Zodiac had befriended Paul Stine. Knew his schedule. Called for a cab. Hailed Stine down. That might explains the driver's side wipedown by Zodiac."

I've read your posts with interest regarding Stine and , according to you, Avery's suspect. I have posted my belief that Zodiac may have known Stine or at least felt threatened by him, a couple of times on this board, most notably in the thread "Paul Stine: Random Victim or Deliberate Target?". Most of my previously posted thoughts parallel yours regarding the wiping of the cab, etc,. I will reserve judgement on your claims concerning Avery until more facts are known. However, can you tell us how Avery got onto this suspect? Did Avery believe (as I have from the beginning) that Stine may have known Zodiac, and then developed the suspect with this thought in mind?

Zodiac may have been better able to see Stine's face from the "wrong" side of the street, not the other way around. (I agree with Tom V. here)

It's important to note that this represents only one theory of the Stine killing. However, if Avery truly believed this and developed a suspect accodingly, I think it is an angle that needs to be explored.

By Ed N (Ed_N) ( - on Wednesday, April 25, 2001 - 11:58 pm:

I have often wondered why Z took Stine's wallet, car keys and a bit of his shirt, because he didn't take anything from his previous victims. If they were friends/acquaintances, maybe there was something in his wallet, perhaps a picture of Z, that he wanted to get rid of. Taking the keys makes sense then: Stine would therefore be the key to the whole mystery. But, it's just a thought...

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) ( - on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 12:20 am:

Z seemed to have already decided that the Stine murder would be his last public murder. The keys and wallet might have been merely souvenirs, or he might have wanted an abundance of "proof" for his future letters.

By Classic (Classic) ( - on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 12:50 am:

Regarding the taking of pieces of Stines shirt..
Is it possible that with all the publicity and all the crank letters that were recieved that one or more of z's real letters got tossed and he took the shirt to make sure that no more of his letters were overlooked? Classic

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) ( - on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 01:04 am:

I've always felt that Zodiac might have written a letter regarding the Berryessa attack, perhaps to the Napa newspaper, and since it wasn't printed (for whatever reason) he decided to include physical evidence in future letters.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 01:41 am:

Good points above. Consider also that he might have been the source of the amateur cryptographers' observations about Robert Emmet in the last line of the 3-part cipher.

Recall, too, that Ted Kaczynski sent a long letter to the San Francisco Examiner directly after his first fatal attack in 1985, which the Examiner neither published, nor made available to the police. Probably some harried editorial assistant simply set it aside without even reading it.

By Thomas Richardson (Obaz23) ( - on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 05:10 am:

Tom, it makes complete sense that Zodiac was on the other side of the street. It was night. Zodiac had made the call. If you are looking to see who is driving a car you can see the person better if you are on the opposite side of the street looking at the driver's side. If you are on the same side of the street you see the passenger side better. San Francisco has many taxi cabs. Zodiac wanted to make sure he would spot Stine quickly being on the opposite side of the street gives him a better vantage point to see who is driving the cab. make the test for yourself on a busy street at night for yourself then you will see what I am talking about.

By Thomas Richardson (Obaz23) ( - on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 05:46 am:

Let me elaborate on this a little further. Zodiac knew this would be considered a random killing. He knew that Paul's background would not be thoroughly investigated. Once again was Zodiac working at San Francisco State college and met Paul there? Cultivated a friendship and during the course of the friendship they had a conversation about the Zodiac. Perhaps Paul made some really disgusting statements about Zodiac not realizing he was actually speaking to the killer. Zodiac took offense and then decided to kill Paul. Zodiac is a methodical man. He planned the killing of Stine. After killing Stine he remembers he had placed his hands on the driver's side. This may be why he was wiping down the door. If so then it means he had no gloves on. The police see this as a random killing by Zodiac. Do they question Paul's wife about Paul's friends? Another key may be through Zodiac's employment records. Do they show all the colleges he worked at?

By Mike (Mike) ( - on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 07:00 am:

Tom R.-

Do you have a copy of Tom V's tape of the various Z shows? Had you seen any of those older shows prior to getting that tape from him (like "Crimes of the Century", "Zodiac: Sign of Death", etc.)?

The gentleman from the DOJ that you mention in your post from last Friday--is he from the CADOJ or the USDOJ?

Just curious...


By Thomas Richardson (Obaz23) ( - on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 08:05 am:

I don't want to get off the subject. Zodiac may have given Paul one of his business cards or his address and phone number that Paul kept in his wallet. Zodiac may have also been in Paul's car and needed the keys to get inside and wipe it down. The bloody shirt is obvious. Zodiac needed that to send in as proof that he did the killing. Of course this is all speculation. No, I don't have a copy of Tom's tape but I have seen some of the older shows. I do know that all of Avery's information was turned over to the San Francisco Department of Justice. When I spoke to the profiler she indicated that Avery had turned in all the information he had. As to exactly when I don't know.

By Mike (Mike) ( - on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 09:13 am:


What can you tell me about Sharon Pagter's credentials? Someone I know in that field has never heard of her. A Yahoo search turns up exactly zilch about her. Where does she work out of as a profiler? Or was her name given to you by the DOJ guy? Once again, is that CA DOJ or US DOJ? There is no "San Francisco DOJ".


By Thomas Richardson (Obaz23) ( - on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 10:21 am:

I do not want to post both their phone numbers on a public board. I do not feel that would be wise.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) ( - on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 11:44 am:

Either start backing up your bs, or find someplace else to spout it.

Nobody I've spoken with close to Avery has heard a thing about this suspect.

By ZK (Zander_Kite) ( - on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 11:50 am:

This suspect and scenario is starting to make sense. This is why Zodiac spent so much time at the cab risking capture unecessarily. Because he had to make sure Stine was dead, because unlike Hartnell, a live Stine would end Zodiacs reign. He was wiping down the cab so thoroughly because he had been there before. I think Zodiac took the keys so he couldn't be pursued by the cab. And doesn't Zodiac start using P.S at the end of letters after Oct.66 ?????

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) ( - on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 12:02 pm:

1) If Zodiac knew Stine so well, why would he choose to kill him under such risky conditions? Why not take him camping and push him off a cliff?

2) I would never consider chasing someone with my cab if my head had just exploded.

3) All of Zodiac's letters were written after October 1966. Assuming you meant to type 1969, I have some crushing news for you: sometimes I use "P.S." in my letters, and I never met Paul Stine.

By Bucko (Bucko) ( - on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 07:07 pm:

" If Zodiac knew Stine so well, why would he choose to kill him under such risky conditions? Why not take him camping and push him off a cliff?"

If Zodiac did know Stine, inviting him to go somewhere "safer" to commit the murder may have resulted in his apprehension since Stine may well have told his wife, a coworker or another acquaintance, where he was going and/or with whom. Directing Stine to a more isolated area to murder him may have placed Z's escape vehicle in greater jeopardy of being noticed.

Perhaps an acquaintance, classmate , coworker or even family member of Stine fits the Zodiac profile.

By Ed N (Ed_N) ( - on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 11:13 pm:

If Z wanted to off Stine in a "safe" way, he could have picked a likelier area to kill him. PH: rich, affluent, cops likelier to respond to rich folks faster, etc... Haight-Ashbury: lots of junkies, hippies and other assorted losers, home of Chuck Manson (April-July 1967), etc... much better choice. Conclusion: Z murdered Stine in PH because he wanted a thrill, but probably not because he knew him. He would have chosen a better way to off a friend who had something on him.

By Thomas Richardson (Obaz23) ( - on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 04:31 am:

I ,like Sylvie, have grown weary of Tom and his arrogance. I e-mailed Jake and gave him Paul Mulligan and Sharon's phone numbers. From now on all my correspondances will be with Jake. I want to personally thank all the people who have e-mailed me. Tom has lost many people who used to post to this board because of his abrasive personailty. He is to be pitied.

By Bucko (Bucko) ( - on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 05:58 am:

" Conclusion: Z murdered Stine in PH because he wanted a thrill, but probably not because he knew him. He would have chosen a better way to off a friend who had something on him."

Certainly another possibility, Ed. I'm not sure Stine was a "friend", but a single bullet to the head without warning would seem to be the most "humane" way of murdering him. I have always thought he chose that location because the area offered so many possibilities for escape.

I just wonder how much checking was done into Stine's acquaintances, especially after Z's letter arrived with the piece of bloodstained shirt.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) ( - on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 12:32 pm:

Obaz, if you had even an ounce of class you would have offered proof of your claims before putting words in the mouth of someone who is deceased.

Avery's wife told a much different story, and his two close friends (both P.I.'s) don't know what you are talking about. I'll trust Jake to contact and verify the numbers you sent him, but until then you are done posting.

By Sharkey (Sharkey) ( - on Sunday, April 29, 2001 - 12:01 pm:

Everyone assumes that Zodiac just hailed the cab, sat in the back, silent and brooding, and shot Stine when they came to a stop. Chances are Stine had a conversation with him and Zodiac probably enjoyed it even more knowing that he was going to eventually kill Stine. Zodiac had no trouble having a conversation with a person he was going to kill, look at the Lake attack. Zodiac assured the kids he wasn't going to kill them, he was just there to rob them and take their car. According to Edward, there was a string of cab robberies leading up to the Zodiac attack. Stine being a cabbie, I am sure, was fully aware of this. When he saw the gun, he probably thought he was being robbed and offered up the keys and wallet right away. He handed Zodiac the items, and then Zodiac shot him. Zodiac probably had no intention of taking these items. His focus was obviously on getting a piece of Stines shirt.

By Sharkey (Sharkey) ( - on Sunday, April 29, 2001 - 12:22 pm:

Two other points about the Stine murder. According to Tom in previous posts, Stines shirt was ripped, not cut. And Stines body was not hanging out of the car door with his watch arm pointing up, but slumped down on the floorboard with his head on the passenger side. I always assumed Zodiac shot Stine in the back of the head while he was sitting up, but perhaps he ordered him to get down on the floorboard and shot him that way. So was Stine shot while sitting up or while he was crouched on the floorboard?

By Bucko (Bucko) ( - on Sunday, April 29, 2001 - 07:59 pm:

"When he saw the gun, he probably thought he was being robbed and offered up the keys and wallet right away. He handed Zodiac the items, and then Zodiac shot him. Zodiac probably had no intention of taking these items. His focus was obviously on getting a piece of Stines shirt."

Z also asked for items, and received them at LB, but never took them with him. For whatever reason, Zodiac wanted the wallet and keys.

By Sharkey (Sharkey) ( - on Saturday, May 05, 2001 - 11:41 am:

I Disagree. I belive Zodiac did the same thing he did at LB, assured the victims that they wouldn't come to harm, as long as they complied with his demands (robbery). You have to remember that several of Zodiacs victims had survived his attacks, including Mageau who jumped into the backseat during a point blank range car shooting. I think that this threw Zodiac for a loop and made him alter his M.O. I believe only two things were important about the Stine attack, the Location and the bloody shirt. I believe that Zodiacs focus was on those two things. The keys and wallet came into his possession in a secondary nature, just like they did in LB. I wouldn't attach any significance to them. I also believe that the wallet and keys were probably handed to the Zodiac by Stine and not obtained by Z "searching the body". I believe the only thing Zodiac was doing with the body was trying to tear off a piece of his shirt, then wiping that piece of shirt in the blood. Here are some statements that I believe back up the theory that Zodiac didn't even search the body "On Stines person, the killer had overlooked seven keys, one ring, one checkbook, and some papers; auto and motorcycle registration. There was exactly $4.12 in the dead man's pocket in change." (Zodiac p.89) you get the idea. You wouldn't waste the time pulling out all these items and putting them back into his pockets in perfect order with enough care that no blood would get onto them. Also, "Approximately five weeks earlier Stine had been held up by two gunmen. Twelve days before his murder, on a Tuesday night, another Yellow Cab driver was held up." (Zodiac p.99) I think when it comes to Stine, the bloody shirt (to prove future letters) and the location are the important things.

By Sandy (Sandy) ( - on Saturday, May 05, 2001 - 08:30 pm:

My R.H. suspect looked very much like Stine, I believe he wanted Stines ID to use, to get in and out of Mexico, for the drug ring in Vallejo. Because his last name is Hispanic, that made it harder to get the job done. I also believe the robbery two weeks before, was a trial run, to show his partner in crime, how much he looked like Stine. Darlene's ex had a friend from Mexico, couldn't he be R.H.?

By Jena (Jena) ( - on Sunday, May 06, 2001 - 08:01 am:

Question to you all on the board ... Does anyone know if Paul Stine was a part of Dam Cycles Motorcycle Club back then ? Someone mentioned motorcycle registration and it clicked that might be the second link between my suspect and paul...
Comments please!!! Jena

By Lapumo (Lapumo) ( - on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 11:05 am:

I do find it interesting that there is a Vallejo street connecting to the east side of the Presidio,running through Pacific heights.I wonder if ever featured in Zodiac's "plan"!

By Lapumo (Lapumo) ( - on Saturday, February 16, 2002 - 07:18 am:

I was watching a documentary on T.V last night,which claimed that the Stine letter,as well as containing a piece of Stines shirt,also contained a bullet identical to one of those used in the Jensen/Faraday murders!.I assume this is incorrect as I have seen no mention of it here?

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) ( - on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 01:55 pm:


This can't possibly be correct because the weapons used at LHR and PH weren't even the same caliber. LHR was a .22LR bullet and PH was a 9mm bullet.

What documentary were you watching? Why doesn't somebody hire me to do a documentary on Z? I can promise you, it would be more entertaining, informative, factual, and philosophically challenging than anything produced to date! I could easily do it for under $500,000! Hell, I could do it for $10,000 dollars, a case of beer, and a bucket of chicken! Any takers?


PS. Just kidding, Tom. I'm not really trying to use your website to solicit money for what would be the best documentary ever produced on the subject, and in which the members of this board would all be included. HA!

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) ( - on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 02:16 pm:

The segment Lapumo is referring to is on my video, and there is no basis in fact.

By Lapumo (Lapumo) ( - on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 02:19 pm:

I assume whoever made that up was implying that Zodiac was offering further proof that he was responsible for LHR.I don't fancy you chances of underpricing the makers of this tripe.
Just another example I suppose of how this story has been twisted over the years!

By Ray N (Ray_N) ( - on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 04:20 pm:

According to RG, Paul Stine lived at 1842 Fell St. which puts him in either Haight-Ashbury or Haight-Fillmore. Also, his residence is described as an old Victorian style house which had been divided up into apartments. Does anyone know whether it was a common practice for there to be one telephone in a common area for all tenants or was the likelihood more that each tenant would maintain their own phone? In the case of a common use phone, would the landlord or property owner normally be the person under whom the phone account was listed by the phone company? What I'm really after here is either Stine's phone number, (not in the 1969 SF book according to SF Public Library research desk) or the phone number to the building in which he lived along with the landlord's name. I know this is an unlikely place to find the info, but just in case anyone happens to know or could help me find out, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks.

By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 05:51 pm:

Ed should have some info on this topic.He has been to Z related sites numerous times.It is anmazing how he has carefully checked all the sites and related information!

By Ed N (Ed_N) ( - on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 10:34 pm:

All I know so far is that Stine lived at 615 Cole St. apartment 10 in 1965-66, and moved to 1842 Fell by late 1967. Charles Manson stayed at 636 Cole (across the street and three doors down from 615) from March/April to July 1967, and so Stine may in fact have lived there at the same time the Family did. As to phone numbers, that I've never checked, but a perusal of Polk's might have that information. However, since there are separate doors and street numbers to each apartment in the building Stine lived in, I'd say they probably had separate phones.

By Metalex (Metalex) ( on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 10:10 am:

Strangely enough The Ole Chuch O Satan is a mere 2.7 miles away or just 6 minutes by car . Also after speaking with many a Hippie turned Yuppie in the Haight, and after spending literally hours trying to find John Lennons signiture scribed in the sidewalk the residents that I was able to speak with on Cole said Manson lived in the garage in his VW bus while staying on Cole.This was supposed to be the infamous black microbus that Charlie used to drive up and down the coast in. Someone said they heard he had a connection with the owner at the time. Does anyone know if this is correct? Thanks, alex

By Lapumo (Lapumo) ( - on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 06:39 am:

Anyone know of Stines wife and/or relations are still alive?

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 06:58 am:

A few years ago Mike Rusconi got a call from someone claiming to be Paul Stine's nephew. I'd imagine the others are still alive and kicking.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) ( - on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 11:07 am:

Stine's wife is in an asylum, his sister lives in Florida.

By Ryan Olesin (Ryan) ( - on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 11:19 am:

Ok...whats she in there for? Is she in Atascadero?

By Lapumo (Lapumo) ( - on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 12:02 pm:

Just wondering about the theft of items from Stine on the night of his murder.Perhaps it's just the way Graysmith worded it.Zodiac apparently took "keys" and Stines wallet.Graysmith
claims that among the items left were a checkbook,
seven keys and I believe $4.12 in change.
Perhaps I am grasping at straws here but the reference to seven keys got me thinking.
Was it just the cab keys that Zodiac took? One might assume that Stine may have kept his personal keys and cab keys on some kind of key-ring,where Zodiac just took them from the ignition!.Likewise,the wallet may not have been on his person but between the seats or in the glove compartment!Were these "seven keys" seperate or on a key-ring?.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) ( - on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 12:16 pm:

Stine's wife is in either Mass. or Conn. (Somewhere in that general area.)

I don't know the extent of her illness, but it might not be unfair to add her to the list of Zodiac victims....

By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 02:07 pm:

Correct.Stine lived across the street from Manson and '67, as our master researcher ED N has posted on 2/19.CM and his associates,like Bruce Davis(he was seen in Berkeley in '68 at or around the Christmas season and CM was in SAC with Tex Watson and some other friends;of interest to me were the "two men" that were chasing by car,a young couple the night of the LH murders right near the crime scene and that Zs car was empty around that same time-good one RG!FYI)went to S.F. many times in the '67-70 era ,as is well known amongst CM researchers.
Some have wondered if Stine knew,at least somewhat,the "stocky man" as he stepped out to hail his cab.No,not CM ,but maybe an associate?FYIIIIII!

By Zander Kite (Zk) ( - on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 08:51 pm:

Lapumo asks " Did Zodiac take just the cab keys "? Though it sounds ridiculous on the surface, I stand by my guess that Zodiac feared a passerby stumbling across his work and picking up his trail with the CAB!! Another possibility: At Lake B., Zodiac wanted a calm couple to gain control of , so he sold his escaped convict, this is an armed robbery story. The things stolen under false pretend(sic), are dropped back on the blanket. What I'm getting at is that I believe Zodiac kept those items(keys,wallet)from the cab crime in case he was caught or shot. That way, an armed robber is apprehended and not "the zodiac". The ultimate terrorist, he would still menace society even while dead.

By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 10:12 pm:

Interesting twist.Also,Z could have wanted a passle of "proof" it was he that killed Stine after the shirt portions ran out!One key at a time in each future Z letter and items like cards from Stines wallet would provide much evidence it was an "official" Zodiac missive over a long period of time.

By Ryan Olesin (Ryan) ( - on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 07:19 am:

Zander: You think some private citizen would have jumped in the cab with dead and bloody Paul Stine and chased after Z. What was this good samaritan going to do if he found him? If I found the cab I would have pooped my pants and ran to the nearest phone to call police.

And with LB, the man wore a Zodiac vest. If he was caught or shot, the vest may have tipped the police off to consider him as the Z. And if this was the case then why drop the wallet/keys back on the blanket, even though he was still at the crime scene. He could have been caught or shot getting into his car.

By Metalex (Metalex) ( on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 09:14 am:

What about the so called "dry run" that Graysmith mentioned on TV yesterday an also in "Unmasked". Has anyone interviewed the cabbie from that incident? Graysmith said the cab driver was robbed, tied up and gagged then put in the trunk of the car. With all that happening on a busy SF street someone must have seen something. Maybe Tom also has a copy of the police report from that particular incident. Wasn't there a string of cab robberies going on at the time anyway? Could Stine have actually recognized Z as Allen since they were once neighbors. Another question is by looking at Stines fare log or actually calculating the amount that was left on the meter in the cab couldn't one figure out where else he may have been that evening before picking up Z? Or if they may have gone somewhere else before getting to Cherry? The "dry run" incident occurred at Washington and Locust about a week before according to Graysmith.

By Lapumo (Lapumo) ( - on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 09:35 am:

By his own admission Zodiac was leaving clues that night, albeit fake ones.We do not know.For that reason I am trying to understand what actually took place.If we believe Zodiac left clues to his identity contained within his written communications,then we must also consider
if his actions,particularly with Stine,were meant to point in a particular direction.While there are
considerations such as the Radian theory,I was trying to concentrate on what Zodiac was actually doing in and around the cab that night.
While the exact details may not be know or avaible,perhaps considering some of the finer detail may unlock something.
The impression given,or at least the impression I
had, was that Zodiac searched Stines person.This as it turns out may not have been the case.
Zodiac shot Stine through the right side of the head.The shot,taken at such close proximity, would almost certainly have meant,that there was a splattering of blood all over Zodiac's right hand at least.He then entered the front of the vechicle on the passenger side.Stines head, pulled over on his lap as he leaned across would have meant more blood.Had Zodiac searched Stines pockets,then surely there would have been mention
of blood on the inside of the pockets or some residue attached to the checkbook or registration papers contained on Stines person.
A wallet is a bulky item, usually carried in either the pocket of a coat or a back pants pocket.I do not know if Stine wore a coat that night.However it may be unlikely that he sat on it or carried it in a front pocket.Stine would also have been expected to keep personal cash and fare money seperate.What I am saying is perhaps Zodiac only took what was readily in view in the front seat area or from the glove compartment.
Either way it would be interesting to know.
There is also the question of how many keys and exactly which keys Zodiac actually took.Many people keep all keys together on a keyring.However in Stines case the safe bet would be that Zodiac only took the car keys.I assume he worked on shifts and would not have used the same cab all the time,therefore perhaps,he just picked up a different key each time.Attaching ones personal keys to these then becomes pointless.Perhaps then,the seven keys contained in his pocket were his personal keys.Again, either way this information may be important.
Were the remaining keys taken from a keyring and placed in his pocket? Were they on a key ring or seperate?.
I see absolutely no reason for the taking of a key in the first place to be anything other than symbolic.
It would also be interesting to know if the rag or towel he was seen with,was an item he took with him or something found in the car?

By Metalex (Metalex) ( on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 10:53 am:

Did they tow or drive the cab away to an evidence yard? If they drove it then the keys taken could have belonged to possible anything. If it was Allen and Stine recognized him maybe he also knew where Stine was living and took his house, car, boat or motorcycle keys. What about the chance that Stine was hiding something for Allen and he had a safe/locker key? Cabbies do frequent bus stations and they have lockers. Of course there's the theory that maybe they knew each other from college and could have stayed in contact maybe indirectly through a club. What do we actually know about Stines interests? My stepfather was stationed at the Presidio during the late 60's early 70's and worked part time at the Bank Of America in the financial district, he has told me that a lot of people from work as well as the Presidio and UCSF would go fishing together near Ft. Point, The Marina and also Ocean Beach. Maybe they could have been fishing/boating pals?

By Zander Kite (Zk) ( - on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 03:18 pm:

Ryan, my theory is that Zodiac worried about being caught or shot during the cab crime only. It was a relatively risky operation. It was not an isolated area like the others. At the Lake, he leaves the stolen stuff behind, it's purpose was to feign robbery. At Stine, he steals his wallet and takes it with him, leading me to believe it has the same purpose as Lake B., feigning robbery. If Zodiac is caught or shot that night, having the cabbies wallet might lead the police into writing it off as a robbery and Zodiac remains on the loose.
Zodiac didn't make things up as he commited the Stine crime. It was heavily planned. Zodiac could not assume everything would go smoothly. He couldn't assume his victim would be killed(Hartnell,Mageau). He probably decided he would take the cabs keys well in advance as a safety precaution.
Maybe the paranoid personality comes into play here. If I'm not mistaken Kaczynski had dreams of killing people but they wouldn't stay dead. If he's Zodiac, combine that with two surviving victims, thus the cab keys are taken.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 03:47 pm:

Remember, too, that Kaczynski also had thoughts of "shooting it out with the police" during the commission of his murders. If he's Zodiac, his prognostication almost came true!

By Mike (Oklahoma_Mike) ( on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 08:15 pm:

Lapumo relates Zodiac's quotes as to leaving 'fake clews' during the murder of Mr. Stine, but I have always doubted the veracity of this. Zodiac never mentioned clues (or disguises either) before that night. I think the shock of getting seen by the police frightened him and he concocted the 'fake clews' and 'disgice' statements in a somewhat desperate attempt to sow confusion among investigators. He wanted people arguing about his appearance and any evidence found, and it worked, look at us 32 years later! I do not think Zodiac was the criminal mastermind his legend has grown to become, but rather a slightly above average intelligence guy who thought out his crimes with escape routes planned. Add in a liberal dose of luck and a lack of knowledge of serial killers by law enforcement at the time and there you have it.
I know many will disagree with me, but can anyone point to one PROVEN 'fake clew" other than several other deliberate lies we know of in other Zodiac communication?

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 09:20 pm:

One thing that comes to mind is Zodiac's apparent (apparent to me, at least) deliberate use of misspellings to sow confusion among investigators. It appears, in many cases, to have worked. The pair of extra-large gloves found in the cab might be another. And of course we can't be sure, but I think there's at least an even chance that he used extra, or loose and baggy clothing to confuse witnesses as to his size.

And if you're an Allen theorist there are the wigs, and perhaps a corset to boot!

By Judy (Judy) ( - on Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 06:00 pm:

Extra large gloves? My memory is that there was
a pair of ladies gloves found.


By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 06:09 pm:

Size seven, men's. I believe those are the extra large?

By Judy (Judy) ( - on Friday, April 19, 2002 - 05:28 am:

Not sure about men's sizing. I guess the brain
cells are dropping off more rapidly than I thought. Are you getting this from RG's first book. It is somewhat coming back to me now...

Of course there is soooo much information to digest-it is hard to keep everything registered.


By Bucko (Bucko) ( - on Friday, April 19, 2002 - 07:16 am:

It was mentioned here, I believe some months ago, that one or more of the eyewitnesses said that Zodiac, at some point during the crime, looked up at the window and may have seen them. Is this true? If so, at what point during the crime did this occur?

I haven't been able to find the post nor do I remember the thread. Hope someone can help.

By Jake (Jake) ( - on Friday, April 19, 2002 - 08:32 am:

Graysmith reports ladies' gloves -- it was the 1971 DOJ report that named them men's.


By Judy (Judy) ( - on Friday, April 19, 2002 - 01:03 pm:

Thanks for the clarifcation, Jake. I know the mind
is slowly slipping, but I did not recall RG saying
anything about men's gloves.


By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Friday, April 19, 2002 - 01:48 pm:

That was ED N.He told me,while at the kill site in S.F., about Z going to the drivers side(as told to him by a Paul Stine(!) who knew at least one of the teen witnesses )of the cab and wiping it down and then just as he was leaving he briefly stopped and looked straight up at the teens in the window!The Z warning about killing "kiddies" is suggestive!Then,of course,he walked away in a 'non hurried' fashion (just like at BRS/LB).I urged Ed to post this report to the Board.He said he was going to anyway.Also,Ed told me about a man that actually went up to the Chevy parked at LHR 12/20/68 and looked into the car which was empty(those TWO men chasing that couple near the murder site on 12/20/68 as reported by GS is interesting- especially in light of that vacant car!)and he said he was to inform the Board which he did.If there is news there is ED!The Archives can give you the posts.

By Ed N (Ed_N) ( - on Friday, April 19, 2002 - 09:13 pm:

Howard, Sandy and I met to go on the Z tour on the evening 12-20 last year, and we spoke of so many things! The guy who told me in November 1999 about Z looking right at the three teens before closing the door and walking away was a friend of theirs, but he didn't give me his name (since he knew theirs, and not many do, he must have been legitimate). There was another friend of theirs, Paul Stein (note the spelling), who also knew Hunter, and who said he moved to a house a few doors north of the where Stine was shot a year or so later.

Since you mentioned LHR, Howard, I'll post about that on the current LHR thread.

By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Saturday, April 20, 2002 - 06:21 pm:

I have wondered alound in past posts if those gloves were worn at LB!

By Judy (Judy) ( - on Sunday, April 21, 2002 - 03:38 pm:

Howard, I am a late arrival to the board. I have
been somewhat of a peeping tom-observing what is
being said-but not feeling like I had much to
say to really contribute anything. Many of the people here-including you, of course- have obviously researched this case a great deal.

Even though I did go back and read EVERY post- it
is just too much to digest and remember everything that has been said. So, I stumble along...

Yes, it would be just like the Zodiac to deliberately leave gloves he had used at another
crime. Yet one more taunt in the scheme of many.


By Ray N (Ray_N) ( - on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 01:55 pm:

As far as the nature of the crime at PH, it can only be classified as ultra-hazardous from the perspective of the shooter. It has long been my contention that Zodiac planned on getting caught that night, and was very surprised when he escaped. I'm not saying he wanted to get caught, but he realized that the more daring his outings, the more chance he would be apprehended. This explains the wallet very well. It is a common practice for one to keep all the money together, and seperate out fares at the end of the shift, keeping the balance as tip. Paul Stine's wife reported that this was his normal way to handle his money. So, that means all the money was probably in the wallet. Taking the wallet and getting caught with it that night would make the shooter not Zodiac, but John Q. Public, taxi driver murderer. I can just see him sending taunting letters out to the Chronicle from San Quentin. We know about the swatch of shirt, but the key is a different matter. Nothing explains the taking of the cab key. There must have been a reason for it we do not yet know.

By Ray N (Ray_N) ( - on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 02:08 pm:

Quote from helpful passerby to arresting officer:

"Well, Officer, I really didn't shoot this guy. You see I was out for a brisk evening walk, and I happened upon this cab which was drenched in blood. I said to myself, this must have just happened, so I've got a good chance of catching him myself. I opened the door, put the dead guy's legs across my lap, and set out cruising around PH looking for I have no idea what. That's when you guys pulled me over. Of course that's my bloody print from where I closed the door. Honestly, I didn't throw the gun out. I hate guns. Can I go home now? My wife is going to be worried."

By Zander Kite (Zk) ( - on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 03:08 pm:

Let's say Zodiac shot Mr. Stine in blitz style. He was probably interested in killing the engine next, thus pocketing the keys. I would say that a para-skitzo or even a careful person SHOULD take the keys in that situation as a catch-all against anything that might go wrong. It seems to be a very logical precaution.

By Ray N (Ray_N) ( - on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 07:02 pm:

Additional items on Zodiac's list of precautions to be taken when blowing cabbies' heads off on suburban streets:

1. Take the vic's wallet to place yourself at scene.
2. Get plenty of blood all over you.
3. Tear off a piece of driver's shirt and put in your pocket.
4. Remain in the area for several minutes in case there are any witnesses close by.

There was nothing about this incident which can remotely be construed as cautious. Z ventured well into the realm of recklessness with this bold strike. The precaution he most likely took as a catch all against any potential snags (including police encounters) was a full magazine for Mr. Ninemill.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 07:09 pm:

Speaking of that piece of shirt, wasn't that the logical thing for him to have been wiping down the cab with? And wasn't it covered with fresh blood?

By Zander Kite (Zk) ( - on Monday, April 22, 2002 - 08:52 pm:

Ray, are you serious on #1. I can imagine Zodiac not taking the wallet that night, being stopped by the police, and thinking to himself "Wow, I'm glad I decided not to take the wallet, now they can't place me at the scene." "Can I leave now, my brother is going to be worried. He's waiting for me in a car down the street." #2. Yes, I agree he must have gotten bloody, but since he's not being cautious at all, maybe he just passed on the tennis whites and in a last-minute decision chose the darker clothes. #3 Yes, he took a piece of shirt and later he used that shirt to prove that he was the cab murderer. This seems to suggest he was looking towards a future other than one behind bars. #4 So you are admitting that the eyewitnesses got a good look at Mr. Zodiac? I agree with that. They did report the fine detail of reddish tint to the hair. And we know who that composite looks like and who it doesn't.

Ray, with all due respect, if I were to adopt your logic concerning the planning of the cab murder, I would have to believe that Zodiac was incompetent and careless enough to bring a slingshot to the murder scene instead of a gun.

By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 12:22 am:

The teens saw a WHITE cloth or "hankerchief."

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 04:07 am:

According to Kaczynski's journals he was, at that time, prepared to "shoot it out with the cops," while committing a murder. Even supposing Zodiac had nothing to do with Kaczynski, given that the two of them manifest the same basic psychology and motives, I'm inclined to think that Zodiac might have had this in mind as well; hence he might have been willing to tempt fate by taking inordinate risks in the Stine murder. His attitude would have been one of fatalism: "I'll do what I have to do; if they get me, fine; if not, I'll carry on."

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) ( - on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 06:58 am:

You know, speaking of being bloody, doesn't it seem strange that Foukes and Zelms didn't notice any blood on the Zodiac when they spoke to him? To me, this suggests either one of two things: Either Foukes and Zelms were less observant than we've given them credit for, or, gulp, maybe they never actually saw the Zodiac? Also, did Z dispose of his weapon prior to speaking to Foukes and Zelms? Or, did Foukes and Zelms, two trained police officers, whose testimony led to an amended SFPD composite, simply not notice the 9mm pistol that Zodiac had holstered beneath his jacket?

What do you think, folks? I'd really appreciate the additional brainstorming y'all can provide.


By Ray N (Ray_N) ( - on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 08:13 am:


"Or, did Foukes and Zelms, two trained police officers....simply not notice the 9mm pistol that Zodiac had holstered beneath his jacket?"

God, Scott, you sounded just like RG on that post! HA! HA! How in the world do you know it was in a holster under his jacket? How do you know it wasn't tucked into his waist at the small of his back?

As far as the blood, that's a fair question. We have to remember, though, that the cops were excited and they were already on the lookout for a black male. It's probable they were sure from the outset they were inquiring to an innocent citizen and had no inclination to examine his person. Their exchange was reported as one question and the answer, after which they "peeled rubber". The whole encounter could have taken place in 10 seconds. We also don't know if Paul's head was actually in Zodiac's lap. It could have easily been down on the floorboard in the position it was found. Z could have just moved him forward off the seat so he would have room to sit down. There was plenty room for Z to sit on the seat above him in that position and "work" on him, judging from the photographs. If this is the way it happened, most of the blood on Z would have been on his hands, and on the seat of his pants and the backs of his legs out of sight from the officers. He could have wiped off his hands and/or put them in his jacket pockets. The only way the "head in the lap" concept came about anyway was from the witnesses. I doubt they could have had such a vantage point on so foggy a night to discern whether Paul's head was in Zodiac's lap or on the floorboard in front of the front passenger seat as Z "searched" him.

The bottom line, IMHO, is that there is no other way to reconcile the amended drawing unless SFPD concluded the officers actually spoke to Zodiac. They could only have concluded this when Zodiac gave an accurate account of the conversation. So, really, there's just no way out of it. It had to have happened.


By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) ( - on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 08:57 am:


Excuse me for postulating. Granted, it's essentially 100% that Foukes and Zelms spoke with the Zodiac. My point, however, really has more to do with the amount of blood that was on Zodiac as he left the crime scene. My guess is that, given that there was no mention of blood in Foukes' and Zelms' testimony, there was probably little, if any, blood on the Zodiac as he left the scene. At least, not that was noticeable.

As for the gun, I still feel that is a fair question. Perhaps it has more to do with me personally, but I'd never holster a weapon, especially an automatic, at my waist, particularly if concealment was my intention. But hey, that's just me.


By Lapumo (Lapumo) ( - on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 08:59 am:

One way or another this was Zodiac's last murder
at least in the guise of "the Zodiac" we know.
While murders he may have committed before LHR or after Stine are by no means inconsequential as far as investigating this case goes,the best chance of understanding or identifying Zodiac I believe,lie within this series.The exception,perhaps,is the CJB case,where he may have slipped up.Given the content of the Exorcist letter we must believe that Zodiac's decision to stop was a conscious decision on his part.He either "moved on" or found himself in a position where he could no longer continue.While there is a major question concerning the lenght of time that had elapsed between Zodiac's previous letter and the Exorcist letter,one feels that unless Zodiac were to have died or been killed prematurely that this "signing off" would always have to come.Unless of course he was to continue until caught or killed.
The Stine murder,for me at least,also appears to have that sense of a final act about it.If we follow that line of thinking, then Zodiac either decided to stop after Stine or had already made the decision that this was to be the last.At this time, I am more convinced by the latter.This idea that Zodiac got such a fright that night, being confronted or nearly caught,prompting him to call a halt,just does not fit for me.
There is absolutely no panic to be seen in his actions that night.I think it was planned before hand and all scenarios contemplated.I do not discount that the location was important that night.The point at Maple and Washington must be considered,however I think Graysmith probally got it right when he suggested that there was someone in the area and Zodiac got Stine to drive on to an isolated spot.He would almost certainly got him to drive further if there were people about.What I am saying is that anywhere near the Presidio would have sufficed, given that his escape route was already planned.The taking of items from Stine, especially the bloodstained piece of shirt does indicate that he intended to use this as proof in future letters.
As to whether Zodiac was stopped or not by officers that night is debatable.If as claimed they just drove by,the only panic may have been to speed up his escape from the area.If they did stop him and Zodiac noticed any suspicion on their part, then we would most likely, be looking at two dead policemen before they had a chance to get out of the car.Had something like that happened,then perhaps there would have been reason for him to lie low and/or stop.If, also, this incident took place then Zodiac did not seem too concerned by it.He must have been comfortable in the knowledge that he was sufficently disguised.However Zodiac went on to write again the very next day.One would think if he had any concerns at all he may have at least waited a few days to ensure the coast was clear.
Finally,if this was to be Zodiac's last and was planned as such we must give careful consideration
as to what actually was taking place inside the cab after Stine was shot.Why he took what he did and perhaps also concern ourselves with what he did not take!.If the items taken were only those available in the front compartment or if Zodiac searched Stines person.
If, it is as appears,Zodiac was the type to taunt and leave clues in his written communications then we must surely consider what can be gleaned from his actions.

By Lapumo (Lapumo) ( - on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 09:29 am:

I must admit I have always believed Zodiac DID speak with Foulkes and Zelms that night and for the same reasons.However he did also claim to have been hiding and watching events from the Presidio grounds.Unlikely, as the tracking dogs would have located him.Perhaps both claims were made just to taunt police.Just a thought.Ray Email please.

By Metalex (Metalex) ( on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 02:14 pm:

Since no person will probably ever know what Z could have been wearing that night, maybe he actually changed clothes or even sent out his possible accomplice as a false lead to throw off the cops. Also since there are more than a few public mail boxes in the area does anyone know if some of these could have been checked for Stines missing items? Does anyone have any additional info on the "dry run" incident that I posted before? and/or the possibility that Stine recognized him?

By Esau (Esau) ( - on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 05:12 pm:

It's hard to see blood stains on dark clothing at night.

By William Baker (Bill_Baker) ( - on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 09:00 pm:

Exactly, Esau. Reminds me of a little sign I had posted at my desk: Doing a good job around here is like peeing in a dark suit: it gives me a warm feeling but nobody notices.

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) ( - on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 10:15 pm:

So, there was enough light for the teenagers to notice a red tint to Zodiac's hair, but not enough for Foukes and Zelms, having encountered the Zodiac while still in a residential neighborhood, to see blood on him? Interesting.

By Ray N (Ray_N) ( - on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 10:25 pm:

Yes, it's quite possible that there was. When Zodiac started opening doors on the cab and getting in and out, the dome light probably came on, momentarily illuminating the interior of the cab when a door was open. This is pure speculation of course. It is also just as possible that the teens did not accurately describe his hair color. Light plays funny tricks at night and one of the first abilities of the eye affected is that of good color recognition. I don't know what kind of street lights were there either. Mercury vapor lights were common at that time and they mess up color horribly. Unless, Foukes and Zelms shined a light directly on Z, which they likely felt no compelling reason to do, they would not have had the advantage of illumination that the witnesses possibly did. Again, pure speculation.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 10:59 pm:

Lighting tends to vary from one place on a street to the next, depending on the proximity to street lights, shadows, etc. How well does blood show on dark clothing?

By Esau (Esau) ( - on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 11:41 pm:

Doug, you took the words right out of my mouth.

By Judy (Judy) ( - on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 06:44 am:

I'm sure this is in a previous post somewhere-but
here goes.

Did anyone ever reenact the killing of Mr. Stine?
Did they go into that same apt-at night- and look
down to where the cab was parked and the shooting
took place? If so, what were the results?


By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) ( - on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 06:44 pm:

Until we know what the lighting conditions were like at the precise location where Foukes and Zelms spoke with the Zodiac, we're all just speculating. Unfortunately, I've only been there during the day. Tom? Ed?

By Ray N (Ray_N) ( - on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 11:19 pm:

The theory about Zodiac hiding in the bushes and watching from a distance does not work for me because he aparently accurately recounted in his letter the conversation of the individual on the sidewalk with the police officers. He would likely have to have been that person on the sidewalk to have heard what was said. The sudden appearance of an amended drawing is ample evidence that the officers' report of what was said matched the account given by Zodiac. After one considers this, the lighting issue kind of fades into the distance, at least for me. Whatever it was, Foukes and Zelms not becoming suspicious probably saved their lives. The neighbors certainly wouldn't have gone on sleeping soundly during that one. It gives me chills when I think about it.


By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) ( - on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 02:45 am:

Oh yeah, I'm in 100% complete agreement. I'm convinced that the Zodiac was prepared to die and take as many with him as possible the night of the PH incident. He presented the police with a great game of cat and mouse that night and won. I don't really see a reason, despite assertions to the contrary, why the Zodiac would have needed and/or wanted to continue killing beyond his last known crime in PH. After all, in my opinion, it was public recognition and fear that Zodiac ultimately sought and, ironically, seems to have achieved.


By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 03:42 am:

This is the type of mindset we're talking here:

My first thought was to kill somebody I hated and then kill myself before the cops could get me.

"Well, as long as I am going to throw everything up anyway, instead of having to shoot it out with the cops or something, I will do what I've always wanted to do ...."

I often had fantasies of killing the kind of people whom I hated (e.g., government officials, police ....

Following that I had a vague intention of taking to the woods ... and from ambush, murdering snowmobilists, motorcyclists, outboard motor users, or the like; in the end shooting it out with the authorities and not permitting myself to be taken alive.

By Zander Kite (Zk) ( - on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 05:02 pm:

I agree with the idea that Zodiac entertained the possibilities of a shootout with the cops. It seems though that he wasn't overly gungho for it to happen, as evidenced by him pointing the cops away instead of blasting away. Honestly, I'm kind of turned off by all this macho talk. I doubt very much that Zodiac said to himself one night "Well tonight's a good night to pull that cab murder I've been thinking about. Let's see, I've got my gun, I'm good to go." I believe Zodiac was driven to create a riskier murder scheme because he needed to expand his terror game, thus satisfying his compulsion to kill in publicity-seeking fashion. After the Lake B. episode, the press labeled Zodiac a "ladykiller", and let's face it, if you weren't one half of a couple in an isolated area, maybe you weren't so scared of "The Zodiac". That changed after Oct.11th.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 05:29 pm:

I don't associate anything "macho" with Zodiac. In fact, I think that one of his main problems may very well have been the lack of machismo, for which he tried to compensate by committing crimes.

By Zander Kite (Zk) ( - on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 06:00 pm:

Doug, just in case you took my post to be critical of your post, my comments were directed toward the message board people who are... let's say.. more of the gun-happy variety. I believe that your last two posts concerning the likely mindset of Zodiac are accurate.

By Zander Kite (Zk) ( - on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 09:34 pm:

All flames aside, I have been following this thread closely and I just disagree with so much of what is being suggested. And the reason I am so "passionate" about the Stine case is that I believe it clearly offers the best evidence about Zodiac. We know that it is almost certain that Zodiac tore off the shirt in order to prove his responsibility in the Stine murder and for future letters. So I really wish all this "wanting-to-get-caught" jazz would end. The "over-profilers" have produced this fantasy that serial killers would rather rot in jail than be free. They even played this game with Bundy, suggesting he prefered capture, which makes me wonder why he broke out of jail twice. Then they said "Oh yeah, he moved to and killed in Florida because he secretly wants to be executed." Bundy was probably mored scared to die than a cockroach.
Then there's the notion that Zodiac abandoned all reason and set out on October 11th with only a canteen and a gun. Let me tell you something about criminals who plan crimes with the idea that all is well by the gun: It's not long before they're creating their next plan: A jailbreak.
Let's face it: Zodiacs plan didn't go as planned. He expected it to go better than it did. If he was looking for trouble, he could've pointed his gun at the cops instead of his finger. If he was looking to totally go crazy and blast away people, he's not gonna find a crowd in the back of a taxi-cab, and I doubt he's gonna produce any Charles Whitman-like numbers with an arsenal that's tucked under his jacket. Zodiac just didn't suddenly become a "stumbler and a bumbler" that night. His reation to the cops rolling up on him should tell us something about his disposition that night:calm and in control.
Not to necessarily turn this into an Allen/Kaczynski debate, but there is a lot about the Stine murder that points toward Ted Kaczynski. The composite for example and the November letter which in my opinion could be used as a reference for the "Manifesto". We see how Zodiac looks to bombs as a killing means after the close encounter on October 11th. I just feel that those who prefer Allen have totally altered what Zodiac was for the purpose of fitting Allen into the Stine scenario. The Zodiac and society weren't one after Oct 11th. Zodiac had a real problem with society, his killing spree was not just a passing fancy.

By Ray N (Ray_N) ( - on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 09:35 pm:

Let's Scott and Ray.

Zander wrote: "I believe Zodiac was driven to create a riskier murder scheme because he needed to expand his terror game, thus satisfying his compulsion to kill in publicity-seeking fashion...."

All of his crimes were based on terror. The bus bomb letter was simply a test of how awesome his power had become. With a simple threat the entire area recoiled in fear and people's lives were tossed into turmoil to protect their kids. Everyone was now at risk, in other words.

You make a good point. I don't recall Scott and I talking about why he did PH. And what exactly was wrong with our discussion again? We were talking about guns so we're macho and gun happy? I suppose if I read my Bible tonight I'll be a homophobe.

God bless you, ZK.


(Tom, can I say God bless you on a public forum? Has the Supreme Court ruled on this yet?)

By Ed N (Ed_N) ( - on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 12:17 am:

Scott: the place where RG claimed Foukes and Zelms spoke with Z was easy to locate, however, I don't recall where the street lights are in relation to that spot. Not only that, it was identified by RG, for whatever that's worth. Whenever I get out to the city next, I'll be sure to check it out.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 01:30 am:

Zander, I agree wholeheartedly with what you've said. No killer, even those who commit suicide in the process, actually wants to be caught. Mass murderers who go out in a "blaze of glory" do so out of necessity, as well as the fear of being caught and imprisoned. And yes, there have been some sociopaths who couldn't resist the temptation to brag about their exploits, once the game was up. But I don't think we're dealing with a sociopathic personality in Zodiac. He was obviously a deeply disaffected person who felt himself justified in taking revenge against a class of people who represented the success he wasn't able to enjoy. He's essentially a "mass murderer," though I wish we had a better term to describe the type.

Speaking of Kaczynski and confrontations with the police, Kaczynski once fell into a private fury, broke into one of his neighbors' houses and used an axe to completely trash the place. A week or so later the police paid a visit on him, to ask some perfunctory questions. Later Kaczynski wrote, "I feel very good about this. I am also pleased that I was so cool and collected in answering cops questions." Shades of the Stine incident!

By Bill Bauwens (Billb3771) ( - on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 09:13 am:


I agree with what you are a point. Let's back the logic up a bit though. Why do killers (serial) kill in the first place? What prompts them to commit their crimes? You have to concede that there is an inherent need for attention in the crimes of the Zodiac. If he was just killing to satisfy some perverse sociopathic sexual blood lust, then why the taunting letters? Why the phone calls? Why the cryptograms? Why wouldn't he just kill for the sake of killing and bury the bodies somewhere and notify no one? I think then if one can assume that if the Zodiac is looking for attention or some sort of validation, couldn't you then question the motive(s) for that NEED for attention or validation? WHY is he taunting and teasing the way he did? One could make the argument, and many have, that it is this need for attention that is a cry for help or an unconscious desire to get caught and have someone other than their own hand (suicide) stop them from killing. Just a thought...

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 09:55 am:

Not a cry for help, Bill, but a cry for attention. The trouble with most of these "disaffected" killers is that they don't think they need help. It's not them who has a problem, it's everybody else.

By Bill Bauwens (Billb3771) ( - on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 10:22 am:

Agreed Doug. But what is the motive for the attention seeking? Wouldn't he be screaming: "Look at me!" or "Notice me!" I would think that someone who wants the world to "look at them" and notice their actions is indirectly asking to get nailed. I would think that he might even be willing to pay the price of capture if it meant finally getting the notice he so desired. If he didn't, then why not just kill without the fanfair?

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 10:46 am:

Bill, the way I see it, he wouldn't want to gain attention by getting caught because the price (execution, a long term of imprisonment, or both) is too high. Of course, once these individuals (I'm talking about disaffected killers, not sociopaths) are caught, they tend to bask in the limelight, just as Kaczynski is doing right now. But that's making a virtue out of a necessity. If we use Kaczynski as a model, his fear of imprisonment put a definite brake on his publicity-seeking crimes.

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) ( - on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 02:22 pm:


Sorry dude, you've got me all wrong. There was absolutely nothing "macho" about any of Zodiac's crimes. Popping a cabbie in the back of the head is in no way a "macho" thing to do. All I ever meant to suggest was that PH was an extremely risky crime, so much so that it makes one wonder why Z would take the extra risks if he weren't looking to up the stakes of "his game." That he desired to be captured or to have a shootout with the cops is pure speculation on my part which arises from the need to explain Zodiac's risky behavior at PH. I'm not "over profiling" anything as you seem to be suggesting.

BTW, what do you care about how someone chooses to "profile" anyway? It's not as if the "profiling guidelines," or whatever the hell it was you posted, is the yardstick by which all investigative thought should be measured, is it? No, it isn't. So spare me the patronizing tone.


By Ray N (Ray_N) ( - on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 03:04 pm:

Admit it, Scott. You're big, scary, macho, gun happy guy who needs to get a clue.

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) ( - on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 03:11 pm:


By Zander Kite (Zk) ( - on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 03:39 pm:

Doug, I've always viewed Zodiac as more of a terrorist/mass murderer than a conventional serial killer. He even writes about the possibility that he will go on a "kill rampage" until he kills a dozen. Maybe even "spree-killer" is apt. Berkowitz was captured while preparing an arsenal of weapons in order to kill about 25. But, it can become a word game if you think about it too much.
Bill, I guess it comes down to whether or not you believe Zodiac was looking forward to some good, solid prison time. Honestly, I've read about too many serial murder cases to believe in the "over-profilers" romance known as "unconscious desire to be apprehended". If you want a second opinion, Bundy thought it was a joke too and he had a PHD in serial killing.
Scott, the term "over-profiler" is directed at the big-wigs, the famous types who overromanticize the killer, and like others have pointed out, sometimes aren't much better than clairvoyants. My argument is that those who prefer Allen are spinning the Stine scene to fit Allen into it. You know, well, those witnesses probably didn't see anything, and all of the sudden Zodiac is this "stumbler and bumbler"(and "lumberer" if you ask Graysmith). Keep in mind though that I view you and Ray as two of the more interesting posters here so this is not necessarily about patronizing or insulting someone elses intelligence. It's just that I view the Stine case as pivotal and so let's lay it out like it happened.

By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 01:18 am:

If Z were on drugs that night or more than usual,then this could have made for greater risk taking.Sometimes, I am told, that the same amount of a drug can affect you differently when under stress,etc.;so it can cause distorted responses.An ex drug addict told me this and it could account,at least in part, for Zs risky behavior that night-along with his 'the police shall never catch me as I have been too clever for them as I am crack proof' attitude!

By Ed N (Ed_N) ( - on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 12:36 am:

Scott: for whatever it's worth, the place that RG identified as being where Foukes and Zelms saw Z (I believe it was in the blurb he did last November about his then-upcoming book) is in front of 3769 Jackson, a short distance from the intersection of Jackson and Cherry. It's on the south side of the street, and there is a street light just off to the right of the driveway. If that is in fact the correct location, and if that street light is in the same spot today as it was in 1969, then Foukes and Zelms would have had a good look at a well-lighted Z (albeit for a few seconds, regardless of whether they actually spoke with him or not).

Now that I think of it, even with Z's dark clothing, and their presumed proximity to Z (they couldn't have been more than about five or so feet away), how could neither of them see his clothes were soaked with blood (or something, if they couldn't see the red on his clothes), and how could they not have smelled it? Some years back at a previous job, a forklift driver was injured when a pallet he was about to move from the top of a stack disintegrated. He's lucky he wasn't seriously injured or even killed, but he did have some minor lacerations. He drove back to the office covered in glass, and before I could even see what happened, I smelled the blood while he was still a good five to ten feet away. Granted, this was in a warehouse with not even a breeze to waft the smell away, but I have to wonder how neither officer detected even a hint of blood in the air around Z. It has such a strong scent it's unmistakable.

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) ( - on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 01:05 am:

" . . . there is a street light just off to the right of the driveway. If that is in fact the correct location, and if that street light is in the same spot today as it was in 1969, then Foukes and Zelms would have had a good look at a well-lighted Z . . ."

Ed, that is very excellent news! Thanks for keeping me in mind on your trip to SF! I'm really starting to believe now that Foukes and Hartnell are the most credible Z eyewitnesses that this case has.

". . . even with Z's dark clothing, and their presumed proximity to Z (they couldn't have been more than about five or so feet away), how could neither of them see his clothes were soaked with blood . . ."

Another excellent observation, Ed. As you are probably aware, that's a question I've been asking myself for quite some time.

Thanks again for the information!


By William Baker (Bill_Baker) ( - on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 05:44 pm:

Ed, or others, would you know, or be able to hazard a guess as to whether there were any alleyways in the vicinity of where Z was last seen walking after the killing?

My thinking was along the line of Z having a car nearby, but not parked on the street. If, and I realize there's some controversy regarding this, but if he was seen appearing to enter a building, perhaps he disappeared from the sidewalk because he turned down an alley between buildings. He could have even remained out of sight, maybe in his car, in the alley during the search, ducking down whenever a passing car or light was seen.

If the street maps, or even aerials, are detailed enough to show alleys, and there are none depicted in or around this location, then my theory goes into the round file, and everyone is instructed to forget that I posted it.

By Ed N. (Ed_N) ( - on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 12:29 am:

Bill... I've never seen any alleys in that area, but then, I wasn't really looking for any either. But, as far as I know, there aren't any.

By Mike Rodelli (Miker) ( - on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 04:49 am:


The only alley is at the north end of Spruce, where there is a small, one car (barely) lane that goes to the rigth and east. I photographed Ed there once. But the wall bordering the park is too low (to my recollection, I could be wrong as you go east) to cover a car, and the alleyway faces onto the park at the Jules Kahn playground area. This particular area would have been crawling with police, as they undoubtedly searched the immediate vicinity thoroughly.

It would be a big risk to take and to assume that you would not be apprehended. The cost/benefit would be very high. Theoretically it sounds fine but in practice, it would require a huge, huge risk on Z's part. I have to doubt that he would be willing to take that risk, given that he had just barely escaped with his freedom a few minutes earlier.


By Ed N. (Ed_N) ( - on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 09:27 am:

I guess you can call it an alley, but I'd always considered it a regular street. I have no idea what the locals refer to it as.

By Mike Rodelli (Miker) ( - on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 10:06 am:

Hi Ed-

It is so narrow, barely wide enough for one car, that it has to be considered an alley. I doubt that it could be a named "street" but anything is possible.


By Ed N. (Ed_N) ( - on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 03:15 pm:

Very true, it is narrow (certainly characteristic of your typical alley) and one-way, but I've always thought of an alley as being a narrow road between buildings. I checked mapquest, and it's actually called "Pacific Avenue." In any case, it is the only alley-like street in the area that I am aware of, and it would hardly afford any protection for Z if he were hidden there. Of course, if he left the area, circled the neighborhood and returned, he could have parked somewhere along there (as long as he changed out of his bloody clothes) and observed the manhunt.

By J Eric (J_Eric) ( - on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 11:48 pm:

Wouldn't Z want to ditch his own bloody clothes, and quick? He'd not want to smear any tell-tale blood in his getaway car! So my guess is he first went somewhere--alley, vacant building, whatever, to change his appearance.

By William Baker (Bill_Baker) ( - on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 09:43 am:

Under this general heading of "Paul Stine," I wanted to mention one aspect of the case which everyone here is well aware of, but often of late not considered when discussing various theories of Z's planning and post-killing behavior.

Z could not have anticipated, nor given any thought to at the time of the killing, the fact that the information dispatched to responding police units would erroneously describe the shooter as a black male. I have no doubt whatsoever that Zelm and Foukes would have stopped the man they saw, and one way or another Z would have been history, had they not been looking for a black man.

Again, I know you all know this, but how does this factor in to any theories as to Z's actions in the minutes following the killing and how the incredibly close call he had with the passing patrol car affected his thinking and subsequent actions? I'd have to guess that the police arriving much sooner than he had anticipated, and being seen as he was heading for whatever location he had planned for in his escape route, must have thrown a proverbial monkey wrench into his plan, however disciplined Z might have been. When he saw the police car approaching, he almost certainly would have felt that he was toast. And personally, I can't see him engaging his would-be captors in gunplay in a Dillingeresque display of deadly defiance.

Was the Stine killing and its inherent risks part of Z's master plan as a swan song to his performance, and did this near-miss then give rise to his less-public exposure thereafter?

Inquiring minds want to know.

By J Eric (J_Eric) ( - on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 09:23 pm:

Bill: Seemingly this was the only killing in which Zodiac did not have a car right at hand and had to walk from the murder scene. (I am assuming he had wheels at Lake B.--awkward indeed to have to walk out or hitch carrying that costume!) How far would he have to walk--or did he catch a cable car back to his point of origin? I doubt Los Angeles police would today speak to a man in the shadows who said he saw the culprit run away, without asking that person to step closer to their car and maybe ID themselves--but that's modern, vicious-gang times. Again, it seems to point to either a poorly-planned murder or something spontaneous.

Hey, if an unplanned killing: Z wouldn't have had that airplane glue on his fingertips. Maybe Z paid Stine just before shooting him. Say he gave him a $10 bill and requested change. Stine may have been looking through his wallet while Z drew his gun. Z takes Stine's wallet because his fingerprints were on the money or coins!

By Mike Rodelli (Miker) ( - on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 10:17 am:

Hi Bill-

The funny thing is that by all accounts, he was not in any hurry as he walked up Cherry to Jackson. Even though he did cross over to the north side of the street, he didn't care to enter the park at Cherry (or Maple), either.

It is a long distance to Maple, where he was seen, so if he continued at the leisurely pace at which he started out (a pace which would also not have drawn any undue attention to him), it would have taken him several minutes to get from the crime scene to where he was seen. The cops therefore did not, in my opinion, get there "faster" than Z would or should have expected.

Since he was walking out in the open and not under cover of the park, the only thing I can conclude is that he didn't give a damn, for whatever reason, even if he were spotted by the police. If he cared, he would have gone into the dark park and worked his way east along the wall. His actions were very odd, to say the least.

I still have to believe that if the park were his final destination, he would have gotten in there fast and disappeared into it long before the manhunt got into full swing. The Presidio is approximately twice the size of Central Park, which makes it pretty damn big!


By William Baker (Bill_Baker) ( - on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 11:20 am:

Mike, I'm quite familiar with the Presidio, having been "stationed" there for four years in the early 50s. I guess the main thrust of my post was simply to point out that the appearance of the patrol car (unbeknownst to Z that they weren't looking for a white suspect) must have had at least a momentary effect on his deportment, perhaps sufficient for him to in some way alter his plan. We know that the drop-off was originally indicated as Washington and Maple, and it's subject to conjecture as to why it occurred at Cherry. If it had happened at Maple, where he was seen some distance from the shooting scene, logic would hold that his initial plan did not include having to walk so far to make good his escape, however that was to be accomplished. That he did have to walk further than he had planned, may explain a few things.

". . . the only thing I can conclude is that he didn't give a damn, for whatever reason, even if he were spotted by the police."

That goes along with my suspicion that this was to have been his swan song. Even in possession of Stine's property, portion of shirt included, he had to have had it in his mind that it was a very real possibility that he was going to be captured. When he wasn't, as the patrol car went on its way, he probably recovered sufficiently to follow along his path of escape, however altered it might have been.

It is within this scenario of his original plan, with the original destination, and his subsequent actions in view of the changes, that I was trying to delve. Plotting his movements subsequent to the shooting, vis-a-vis the patrol car drive-by, might offer further insight as to Z's thinking that night, and perhaps before.

By Mike Rodelli (Miker) ( - on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 03:51 pm:

Hi Bill-

I guess that I should point out that I was not trying to call into question your knowledge of PH, despite the fact that I was unaware that you were once stationed there. When I write a post, I try to keep in mind that there are many readers who have never been to PH and who may therefore not be able to visualize the idiosyncracies of the neighborhood, as you and I can.

I agree that the Stine murder was intended to be Z's swan song. I further agree, based on my own research, with those who say it was an "add on" crime, spurred on by Avery's treatment of Z in the Chron. This is but one feature of the Z case that makes it so unique. There are scant few who do stop--or who can!

I think that the police did take Z by surprise, from what I understand. He must have thought he was home free by that point in his escape, since he was about two blocks to the east by then. His guard was down for a moment, and had not an African-American individual been robbing cabs in the area at the time (thus the mistaken description by SFPD that night), things may have turned out much differently.

If course, were it not for that error, we would not be talking about the case today, or at least probably not.


By William Baker (Bill_Baker) ( - on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 04:34 pm:

Mike, I wasn't being defensive about any knowledge that I may have once had about PH, or its environs in the Presidio (heavens, it's been nigh on 50 years since I lived there and even if everything remained the same, I'd still get lost going around the block), but only as a mere allusion to it being a small world.

I have my own theories (well documented in the archived posts) about the dynamics of LB and how they relate to PH, and of Z's subsequent departure from the public arena (save his writings). As others have opined here, it appears that Z was not your garden-variety serial killer, and some of the classic characteristics that often define them were seemingly lacking in Z's actions and behavior. Now whether or not he continued killing after Stine, without specific self-attribution in a public forum, is open to debate. But PH spelled a radical change in the way he operated, which signifies something, I know not what.

By Alan Cabal (Alan_Cabal) ( - on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 05:06 pm:

Transcendent impulse control, Bill.

By Howard Davis (Howard) ( - on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 10:09 pm:

Tom was kind enough to place some Stine articles on the site.
The one that always interested me, as a curiousity, was the public challenge issued by Stines brother to Zodiac to engage him in a fight!
He worked at 706 Sutter the Richfield station in Modesto.
Kathleen Johns told me that she filled up with gas at a station in Modesto and then went directly to highway 132.The drive wasn't that far to 132.See Sutter St.on a map and the enterance to 132.
She said that she wasn't on 132 that long until the car that zoomed up behind her, began the now well known light blinking and horn honking.
After the stop and car'repair,'the station that the stranger pointed out as the station he would take Johns to, was the Richfield station which was just ahead of them.
Was Zodiac angred by the public challenge and actually parked near this station waiting for a victim whom he hoped to abduct and kill,then when the crime was published-and the flaming car mentioned(could the gas he used have been purchased at the brothers Modesto station?FYI)it would then put fear in Stines brother and increase Zodiacs violent reputation before the public and give him a revival of publicity which he very much needed during at that time.
Remember, we are dealing with a psychopathic personality that was very vengeful,so there is a remote possibility the incident could have been connected.FYI
On the 11th I thought of poor Paul Stine and where he would be today.Probably teaching at a college along with enjoying his family.No descendnts,though, as Zodiacs senseless act cut off an entire line of possible descendants.Think about this and all young victims who were not able to have children due to some murderers designs on their life.
Stines wife suffered greatly-it virtually ruined her life and she never got over the shock.
And what of all the other drivers and their loved ones?Do we think they were not fearful their next fare could be the Zodiac?All Northern CA. taxi drivers, no doubt,were wondering if they were next on Z's list.
Yes,I remembered the 11th and all murder victims.

By J Eric Freedner (J_Eric) ( - on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 09:36 pm:

Just had a thought about Z wiping down the driver's side door (and hood?). Say Stine was driving along, came to a stop sign or red light. Z appears as a pedestrian crossing the street, maybe taps on the hood to get Stine's attention, goes over to driver's side and leans on it. Now, Stine can't very well drive off so he agrees to take Z on up Washington as directed. We know from Lake B. that Z can spin a good yarn when he has to, so perhaps he did so that time too.

In any event, it MIGHT explain why Z later was so diligent in wiping down "strange" areas of the cab before fleeing...

Did SFPD ever check on whether anyone saw something unusual involving the cab picking up a fare? Probably too late now for any casual remembrances from other drivers.