Top Secret Zodiac Letter?, Part 2


Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Letters: Top Secret Zodiac Letter?, Part 2

By Tom Voigt (Admin) (12-231-193-32.client.attbi.com - 12.231.193.32) on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 12:19 pm:

Let's continue the discussion here...the other page was taking way too long to load.

By skeptical bastid (205.155.53.1) on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 04:12 pm:

Tom, if it was DNA that determined the 1978 letter was a hoax, why shouldn't DNA be determined sufficient to clear Allen? In other words, if the popular belief among those who suspect Allen that he had someone lick the stamps is true, wouldn't that mean that it is possible that the 1978 letter was also handled by someone else working with Allen, whether or not they knew what they were helping him with? Not arguing with you about the 78 letter, as the weirdness around Toschi leads me to think it was faked. But shouldn't there be a consistent standard for DNA evidence? Also, to stay with the topic, the CN letter looks like a total fake.

By Tom_Voigt (12-231-193-32.client.attbi.com - 12.231.193.32) on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 04:25 pm:

Apparently DNA retrieved from the April 1978 letter was matched to someone SFPD knew couldn't have been involved in the Zodiac crimes.

By skeptical bastid (205.155.53.1) on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 05:13 pm:

ah, thanks for clearing that up. That would explain it. By the way, saw the History Channel doc you were on. Great job! Too bad they made Graysmith look credible as well. Personally, I lean towards Allen, but I don't think anything is solved yet.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (64.30.222.97.lcinet.net - 64.30.222.109) on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 05:50 pm:

Good one,as usual,Tom.
There was an objection that since Zodiac never crossed double t's in his letters and since the author of the CN letter did -in the word"gotta"-we should look elsewhere for same authorship.
I seem to have found at least two cases where Zodiac crossed double t's with one bar in the 7/26/70 missive:page one line four"buttons" and page two line 14 "implatt."Close enough.
Someone had an excellent detailed knowledge of Zodiacs writing idiosyncrasies!I am more impressed with the micro subtle touches in the CN letter.You don't judge writing by its 'outward' appearance-that is only one small part of careful analysis-it is extremely shallow from a professional point of view,especially since we are dealing with a wild writing animal like Zodiac here-and four years(as Julia in her fine perceptive post brought out-refreshing!)to have changed some parts of his writing style.
When we do side by sides we will find out some very interesting things.

Julia,as I indicated -great post-a thinker you are! A professional photographer requsted permission from LAPD Archivists to photograph some crime files,etc.He was told 'it'll be a cold day in hell(close enough wording!) before you do any photography here.'
He later went directly to then Chief Bernard Parks.He went over his desire to take the photos and Parks thought it was 'a good idea.'
Parks was greatly disliked in the department so this was another chance to assert his authority with the 'elite.'Long story.A friend was former Head of LAPD Security for some 22 years.He affirms much of my research FYI.
The photographer came across the Zodiac File(my Assistant DA source told me about a lot of 'evidence' that hadn't seen light- so I just hadn't seen some of what he was talking about-this was in the 70's)and the result is a good clear photo of the supressed Z missive.I can say they wern't too happy.
The envelope will be taken care of and Tom will be first.I like going to the top!There may be some other surprises in time.Any'visits'I make and the results will be posted, just like I have tried to do with Lass.Tom first though.
I will be posting on other features of the CN letter later.
No Expert they contacted could refute the CN letter and there was more than one.It was considered genuine by Archivists.The threat was taken very seriously at the time and measures were taken.

By Alan Cabal (Alan_Cabal) (cache-rh01.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.252.161) on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 09:40 pm:

I'd go to the mat that this letter is bogus. There isn't a single aspect of it that rings true. Unless it had a chunk of Stine's shirt in it, his DL, or some other positive connection, it has no relation to the case at hand.

By Kevin W (adsl-63-199-230-43.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net - 63.199.230.43) on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 10:44 pm:

I have been coming to this site for many years now (in fact, if memory serves me right, Mr. Voigt, didn't you originally post this site out of Humboldt State university? or something to do with Humboldt-Just curious).
Either way, Mr. Voight has put an incredible amount of facts and evidence on this site. It never ceases to amaze me how much more to this case there is and when information is located, Mr Voigt is sure to get his hands on it and let the rest of us see it. I have read all the threads from some of the other writers regarding this "new" letter and although I have my own thoughts and theories about Zodiac and the letters' authenticity, I am nevertheless amazed by the absolute disregard from some people who immediately attack its authenticity or any other "new updates" Mr Voigt adds regularly to this site. Ironically, I am convinced most of you wouldn't have a pot to piss in about the Zodiac killings were it not for Mr Voigt putting up and maintaining this site. I am sure people like Howard Davis are reputable, intelligent and well versed in the ZOdiac crimes but some of the rest of you are unbelievable! Whether the letter is a fake or real, appreciate the fact it EXISTS! Its one more small piece of information to be examined in this long and complex case.
I applaud the efforts of those of you who continue to assist Mr Voigt by adding valuable, insightful information and/or locating people or other evidence that is relevant to the case. I will continue to come back to this site to get pertinent updates on this fascinating case. I only hope in the future, many of you doom and gloom types will be on to other things (like watching and criticizing the 3rd installment of the Matrix!) in life and leave the real amatuer sleuthing to others more interested/qualified. Keep up the good work Tom.

By Nick (Nick) (216.52.215.232) on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 12:59 am:

I'll bet the LAPD's Z file is thicker than one might imagine. I doubt anything get's tossed into the round file. That would be a mistake.

And specific threats have to be taken seriously. It's called risk mitigation.

I am a bit surprised to to hear of a supressed letter. Why release one letter as a possible authentic and suppress another. What's the motivation?

By Warren (Warren) (64.221.18.62.ptr.us.xo.net - 64.221.18.62) on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 07:38 am:

I believe Howard is correct when he says that whoever wrote this letter was angry. And I cetainly defer to him on similarities/differences between the various letters. However, I think the author's real grudge is solely against Chief Gates. The other chief, Cleaver, Boone and Atkins are just thrown in the mix as an afterthought, and I believe, camouflage. Notice the word "And" when introducing another target.

Playing linkage with the internet is fun:

Pat Boone's daughter, Debby, had been assigned to read Eldridge Cleaver's "Soul on Ice" in school.

"My daughter is NOT going to read that book," Pat scolded her English Teacher. She's fifteen years old, and I don't intend her to read the pornographic fantasies of a convicted rapist."
(From "The Honeymoon is Over", by Shirley Boone).

By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p50-84.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 159.134.50.84) on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 08:12 am:

Well Kevin, I believe 99.9% of the people who post at this site would agree with your comments on the job Tom is doing here.That includes those of us who are inclined to believe that this letter is bogus.I am sure if you took the time to ask Tom, he would tell you that one of the main reasons for posting this letter,(apart from it being new information)is to get reaction to it.
Believing it may be bogus or posting opinions in support of that,does not equate to a lack of appreciation of other people's efforts.
As to the Matrix,I enjoyed it. But the trick is to
realise that it is fantasy.Please remember that before you give us anymore of your "Neo" impressions.

Howard,
Yes,you are correct the "implatt" example is there.I had recalled that he mostly did not do this.However I did not go back and check all before posting.In any case it was not an "objection",it was a simple case of listing the differences I saw.I think the most important statement we have is that "No Expert they contacted could refute the CN letter and there was more than one".
Regardless of which side of the argument one is on this speaks for itself.Evidently, professional opinion is that there are enough similarities not to rule it out and enough differences to stop a definitive inclusion as authentic.
It is surprising that afterall this time we do not have an official statement,especially now that it is in the public domain.

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-129-44-177-5.bos.east.verizon.net - 129.44.177.5) on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 10:11 am:

"No Expert they contacted could refute the CN letter and there was more than one".

That was then, this is now. Professional opinion has definitively ruled it out on the handwriting. Even if it were a perfect rendition of Z in content, that could be just as reasonably explained as an imitation as the real Z. All in all, I am with Alan on this: its as bogus as any we have seen.

By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p50-14.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 159.134.50.14) on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 01:47 pm:

"Professional opinion has definitively ruled it out on handwriting".
Do you have a source Peter? Can you tell us who examined it and who ruled it out?

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-129-44-177-5.bos.east.verizon.net - 129.44.177.5) on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 03:21 pm:

Tom has already provided it:
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/news/video/072403_assign7_zodiac.html

By Howard Davis (Howard) (64.30.222.97.lcinet.net - 64.30.222.109) on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 10:11 pm:

In the 7/24/70 letter Zodiac is writing to the people in S.F.He writes on line one: "You people..."[in S.F.].
I knew I had read that phrase before.I went to the '78 CN letter and I found :"You people in LA..."and on line seven"You people..."

By Ann (Ann) (cache-dk01.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.209.5) on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 10:36 pm:

In the other thread some of the discussion had to do with whether or not Zodiac was known to 'threaten.' He did, of course, however, his words often seemed purposefully darkly enigmatic. Howard has pointed out the Count Marco letter. In that letter, Zodiac didn't state, 'I'm gona kill him.' Rather, he expressed contempt, and it seems obvious to me that he expected that he would be recognized based on past communication and he would be feared based on his history of murder.

Also mentioned in the other thread, by Howard, was the Melvin Belli letter. In that letter, Zodiac refers to 'victims' which I find interesting simply because of Zodiac's perspective. They were the innocent victims; he was the one out of control. They were unfortunate; he was cursed. All I'm saying is that if you're holding the Belli and Count Marco letters up as a comparison to this CN letter, I see no similarity whatsoever.

By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p51-55.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 159.134.51.55) on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 06:42 am:

Thanks Peter,unfortunately I have some technical difficulties with that and can't play it.

I think you have made some good points Ann.At the very least we are speaking of implied threats versus actual threats.We cannot say for sure that his letter to Paul Avery or mention of Count Marco equated to the issuing of specific death threats.I wonder if it would be fair to say that Zodiac would not make direct threats against specific,named,individuals? As far as he was concerned,he was superior to all.Naming specific individuals would be almost like him promoting these peolpe to his level.
In any case,I do not see anything strong enough here that would persuade me to come down on the "authentic" side. With the exception of the same major flaw (mention and praise of Toschi)in the other 78 letter,the handwriting and tone were better there.If we were examining that letter today (without the knowledge of the DNA test)a long list of similarities between that and other letters could be made.So we just don't know how relevant they are here,as all could be explained by forgery.

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-129-44-177-5.bos.east.verizon.net - 129.44.177.5) on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 07:37 am:

Lapumo:

go back to part 1 of this thread and look at the discussion. the informatin is essentially the same, although certian details not relevant to the handwriting elimination have been quoted inaccurately.

By Ann (Ann) (cache-dk01.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.209.5) on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 10:23 am:

Lapumo, I agree. When you look at the cryptic "Dripping Pen Card" message, wherein he announced that there was 'bad news' he didn't offer more than just that, and then he scrawls a list of months followed by the 'equals 7' I think you're correct when you say that he considered himself 'superior.' He was winning this game, in his mind. I don't think it was his intention to 'show his cards'

Putting all that aside, I feel that we have to give weight to Susan Morton's opinion. She's an expert in the field of handwriting analysis, and she has studied the Zodiac letters for years. I think she would know if there was some shadow of doubt, and I think she would call it inconclusive. Having said that, I realize that experts don't always agree, and experts aren't always such experts, but it is a fact that she's had a long history of working with these letters. I tend to trust what she's saying.

By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p51-187.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 159.134.51.187) on Friday, October 31, 2003 - 07:52 am:

I do find the capital "E's" interesting though.
They resemble underlined "F's". Very similar to those found in the first Bates letter!

By Howard Davis (Howard) (64.30.222.97.lcinet.net - 64.30.222.109) on Friday, October 31, 2003 - 04:25 pm:

Ann,
Again.It has been said-and this means by persons that have contacted me also-that the CN letter mentions individuals' NAMES and in the canonical 69-74 Z series NO names of individuals are given.
Z wrote directly to Melvin Belli 12/20/69 and uses his name in the letter as on the envelope.
In 1970 he uses his first name or Melvin,twice (without a capitol-Z uses the lower case r for riverside in '71 -just more examples of his totally unorthodox approach in writing FYI).
Z sent a Halloween card addressed directly to "Paul Averly"(sic see below) 10/27/70 and implied "You are Doomed"and indicated twice that he was to be victim "14."
In '74 Z wrote his very unusual "R.P."(does his style of writing,etc 'look' like a Z deal to you?) letter indicating he was 'enraged'or "red with rage" with "Marco"-a direct referecnce to Marco Spinilli,a S.F.Chronicle writer.MS moved to Hawaii, as he was smart enough to see an implied threat there!Read the letters contents.
IF Toschi's name is in the 340 code then we have another example of a name being used.If GS'340 solution was correct as per Greg Mellon(I contacted members and they said he was their past president and knew codes and was excellent with ciphers,etc.)former president of the American Cryptographers Association,then it was a threat against Dave Toschi.FYI
In the Belli letter, I just said that it was not a personal threat in this case,or a direct one per se, UNLESS Belli "helped" him.IF he couldn't get legal"help"from Melvin,then he may not 'hold back' from killing victim "nine."Kinda pushy I'd say-do it or someone dies!
Who would be victim "nine?"Some person Z happens to find OR Belli himself?FYI
If the '71 Pines card be a Z deal,then we have it being addressed directly to "Paul Averly" (sic).See past posts on this card.
In the 4/29/67 notes that Morrill said were Z productions,Cheris'([Cheri]"Bates had to die") last name is used and on the envelope it is addressed to "Joseph Bates."
We are dealing with a psycho here.Keep this in mind at all times.
So we see it is false to say Z NEVER used anyones NAME(threat OR otherwise-I see one direct threat to PA an indirect with MB being 'forced' to "help" Z OR he can't promise to"hold back" from killing a 'new victim'-and an indirect to MS)as he did-if he is the writer-in the CN missive.Both writers use NAMES-period.
If Z could make a specific death threat against one person then why not more?Without names -he lists a great MANY people from ALL walks of life in his '70 letter!
I know this post will fall mostly on blind eyes and deaf ears and this is fine,but I do it to set the record straight as a researcher.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (64.30.222.97.lcinet.net - 64.30.222.109) on Friday, October 31, 2003 - 04:34 pm:

Lampumo,
Yes,and I ALREADY pointed that out in a post.Check all Zs capitol I's with the few that are in the CN.
I found another crossed double t.Can you find it?I think there are at least three.
I am looking for the subtle points when possible,they are more impressive.We've just begun-just a little here and there for now.
Note the CN writer ended a word with a cap, just as we find in the 4/29/67 notes-ALL of which Morrill approved of as being from young Zs hand!
I disagree with your comments about Anns post.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (64.30.222.97.lcinet.net - 64.30.222.109) on Friday, October 31, 2003 - 05:56 pm:

So Susan Morton of the SFPD,has NOT seen and carefully examined the original CN letter AND envelope -and the "D"(in Dear)does not look like a Zodiac D,along with these "professional" statements,'I don't THINK I would change my mind IF(which means she has NOT)I did SEE the originals(!);'It does not SEEM like a Z letter,'etc,etc.
So the "D"[ear]in the CN is a little weird and it is not like a Z capitol D?OK -is the second capitol D in "ADDRESS" in Zs '69 August missive like all of his OTHER Ds?Is it?Waiting with zated breath my good man.
Peter,you would go to court in a MURDER case,if you handled such cases,with an Expert that has NOT spent as much as five minutes with the original documents? We are ALL waiting for this one to be sure!
I am only presenting any and all similarites I find in the CN as compared to all of Zs known writings -which doesn't take the originals( I just bet she hasn't found them)because many have said thus and so aren't similar,etc.I am proving this is NOT correct and that is all.I will be posting on more info as time goes on.
If you see my posts I am refuting falsities for the most part,as posted and as they have come to me.Next will be the three stroke k fallacy.That Z NEVER used a straight back d is certainly another error.Just one example of Z Zurban tales that have floated around forever.They must be exposed.So this must be brought out.
You know about the majority.You stand practically ALONE that Z wasn't the perp at LB.Tom,and other Z experts certaintly do NOT believe your theory at all.Mike Kelleher,a true crime expert and author affirms he belives it's a z thing.It isn't like there is no support here.
TV knows the Z case zackwards and zorwards and has collected the largest amount of Z documents anywhere-and he KNOWS them,so you are alone on that one.
So,I don't mind being alone on the CN-if I have to-it's OK.Time will tell as I firmly believe.
I find your LB and Z not the perp absurd,but you have a right to promote it and believe it.
It's all about FACTS and truth -not feel or think,etc.
The top Expert(and still is as far as I am concerned), SM on Zs writing said the BH door printing was from Z.You must say no.
Now you stand with Morton -the ONLY Expert,thus far,that has rejected the CN as a Z deal.If you didn't have her,you would still reject it anyway,so why push it on her?We know you from all of your posts as it concerns the Zodiac case.
If I were a Document Expert,I would absolutely INSIST I study the original(if I have seen them I wouldn't say anyway) using instrumentality and magnification,etc.
There are so MANY minute points that MUST be examined(pen lifts and depressions for example-we will see examples even from copies)in writing especially with someone like Zodiac who is obviously trying to disguise his writing and presenting himself as a poor speller,etc,etc.The man doesn't want to give his REAL writng and he and to keep changing it at times.Makes sense.
He enjoyed surprising the police and public and the R.P.,citizen and E.letters are just some examples.Then comes a Halloween card-never did that before!Suddenly a bomb diagram and then another goofy card and then a neatly printed letter to Belli on and on we could go.We can't say what will be in each missive and that it is 'typically' Zodiac as his history plainly shows.
I know you grabbed onto her as you don't 'think' or 'feel'it is a Z letter and that's kool,but time will tell-it ALWAYS does.
Let me ask you-if you see positive reports by LAPD Experts that have examined the ORIGINALS- would you still cling to Morton who hasn't seen OR examined them and hasn't even MADE AN EFFORT to go to L.A. and do so?It ain't that fur from S.F. by jet-about 50 minutes.
Also,it wasn't the LAPD that released the letter-the real story is I gave it in a post.She is wrong on that one.

By Ann (Ann) (cache-mtc-af02.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.96.103) on Friday, October 31, 2003 - 10:55 pm:

Excuse me, but since you're dropping names, isn't Sherwood Morrill the guy who declared that the '78 letter was a definate Zodiac? I believe Mike Kelleher did as well. At any rate, scroll up, about 20 posts.

You could be right about this, Howard. I'm not trying to show any disrespect for the work you've done. I hope you know that. As you've said, maybe time will tell about this. There are incredible advances in the field of document examining/handwriting analysis - recent computerized advances that some claim are as sound as other highly accepted forensic science techniques.

By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p50-205.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 159.134.50.205) on Saturday, November 01, 2003 - 01:11 pm:

Howard,
Not that it makes any difference, but if you have already pointed that particular feature out here,I did not see it and still don't.
In any case, I think this particular characteristic deserves further scrutiny.Again,I stand to be corrected but the only places I see this feature is in the Bates letter and this new one.I don't see any example in the known Zodiac writings.Don't know how much we can read into this single example ,however it is unique.
Anyone have an opinion on it? Coincidence?
Were these notes reproduced in the newspapers?

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-68-160-3-179.bos.east.verizon.net - 68.160.3.179) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 06:51 am:

Ann:

"There are incredible advances in the field of document examining/handwriting analysis - recent computerized advances that some claim are as sound as other highly accepted forensic science techniques"

Write you are. In fact, the art has advanced to the state where some documents bear such obvious distinctions that they can be reliably and authoritatively dismissed, as the CN letter has, without any trouble at all.

By Tom_Voigt (12-231-193-32.client.attbi.com - 12.231.193.32) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 01:47 pm:

Peter, I have never heard of a documents examiner "reliably and authoritatively" dismissing something without ever having the opportunity to examine the original.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (64.30.222.97.lcinet.net - 64.30.222.109) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 03:34 pm:

Lampumo,
It is the word"matter"in the Mikado letter.I was referring to the single crossed double t's you mentioned in "gotta'(in CN).There are probably a total of three examples in Zs writings.The CN writer used it once.
I wasn't 'correcting' you or running it in the zround -only pointing out a feature that is unique and not found very often.
I would rather have a chain of subtle and possibly,unique characteristics (as per the late Henry Silver with 50 years experience and 'never look at a letter,etc.,outwardly'-like amatuers)than a whole host of obvious traits,etc.All features must be brought out though.
I have spent a lot of time with the Z letters since 1987 and I will continue to study them.
As you know ,I am simply correcting the errors(Z only used straight back d's or three stroked k's,etc.,etc. or the CN has this or that,but Z never used this or that, blah,blah)that have been part of the Z writing and connecting them to my studies of the CN.
A lot of myths have crept in over the years and I thought this CM missive was a good chance to bring some of them out.
ONE more example isn't enough for the person (not you-you are always questioning)whose mind is made up.This is the age of the three minute carwash-make decisions fast.I have seen it, I don't like it-next!
The CN isn't LONG enough to give us everything Z ever wrote.But,I am surprised there are so many similarities.Work with only the R.P.letter for example and you'll see what I mean.
He misspelled "Calif." only once.Z used 6 exclamation marks once.He employed an exclamation mark once after "Editor" on an envelope and a semi-colon(as we have after "speaking" in the CN).Only one Halloween card as printed inside was ever received.The two 4's are of the same style Z used as I pointed out.There are three i's in the card when they should be caps-a feature I was told Z NEVER used as in the CN.I gave an envelope example too.There are many other such examples.Z deliberately 'changed' style,spelling,content,etc.,as he was attempting to deceive.He was a much wanted criminal and didn't use his normal mode of writing and spelling and the like.It was for show.Some can't seem to grasp this.This is an unusual situation here.
There are several methods of creating psuedo-writng that will not be ones own.Which did he use?Or worse yet,did he combine methods?

By Howard Davis (Howard) (pool0570.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net - 209.179.228.60) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 08:16 pm:

L,
Sorry,I meant the "little list letter"as Tom has it titled.The word "matter" is on the last page fourth line down.

By Ann (Ann) (cache-rh01.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.252.161) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 09:41 pm:

I'm someone who has trouble jumping back and forth to see exactly what you are referring to, Howard. You've referred to so many different areas in various letters...Speaking for myself, I'd see it more clearly in scanned images, side by side. If you can do that sometime, and post it here, I would think that we'd all like to see it.

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-149-178-89.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.149.178.89) on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 09:07 am:

Tom: Neither had I until I started looking into it. Mauybe I should have said "I am satisfied that the CN letter has been reliably dismissed" or something like that, but apparently some features of handwroiting are so distinctive that they may be reliably evaluated on the basis of the gross features that appear in photocopies.

By Ann (Ann) (cache-mtc-af02.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.96.103) on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 11:07 am:

I had read somewhere online once that photocopies can be used by document examiners, (if it's a good copy, and not a third or fourth generation copy) though originals are preferred. I think that often they work with copies when trying to determine check fraud.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (64.30.222.97.lcinet.net - 64.30.222.109) on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 05:19 pm:

Some have believed that the three stroke k is a fixed Zodiac writing trait.Like so many other so called traits('Z only used a looped d not like the single back d in the CN,'etc.) Z departed from this style or form of k.Morrill himself as well as other Experts,were well aware of this fact.
Of course,like the citizen letter, the writer used the two stroke k.
Here we go:
In 11/9/69 letter we have two stroke k's: Ask,ok,Take,parking,likes,look like,fake,blocks,park,think,take.
10/13/69:speaking,mak,think,pick.
4/20/70:talked,killing.
5/8/74:like,lack,killing,Kit,kind.
7/26/70:Speaking,think.
7/8/74:back,shrink.7/31/69 series:some two and others three stroke-poor quality surfaces.'Early' August'69 letter also.
12/20/69:back,ask.
3/17/71:Like,crack,back,like.
Just SOME examples of two strokers.
See desk poem/envelopes 11/29/66.FYI

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (pool-141-151-61-238.phil.east.verizon.net - 141.151.61.238) on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 05:34 pm:

Howard, I don't know how good the copies are from which you're deriving your information, but the only areas in which I see clear evidence of a two-stroke K are the Citizen letter and the Marco letter. The latter appear definitely to be two-stroke, but the former look as if the two strokes simply were placed too close together, and thus appear as the two-stroke variety. None of the others are even close.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-3839.linkline.com - 64.30.222.109) on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 11:45 pm:

Doug,
I will list the k's I think are two stroke.Z changed his style of letters even within the same letter.
One example is his r's.If someone wants to verify this they can as I don't wish to get post kicked after doing a lot of hard detail work and spend time I don't have.
Two stroke k's:
1966 desk poem -Sick
1969 7/31/69 series-unclear poor quality shots in most places,but I think there are a few two stroke k's.
The three part cipher has backward and downward two stroke K's.Note that Z would write a letter (many examples)like a C and then reverse it.The R is another example.Some have not noticed this.In the case of a K he does a three stroke and then changes to a two stroke only in reverse or downward.
10/13/69-speaking/think
12/20/69-back/ask(?)
4/20/70-killing/talked (killed on line 14 is clearly a three stroke as is back on last line-both can clearly be seen,but the two k's I have pointed out certainly are not.
6/26/70-reversed two stroke K in cipher-note F then it's reversed as one example(it is tempting to think Z- in his distorted way -was referring to the 10/12/69 Chronicle account of the Stine shooting when it said a .38 was used-he does not say he shot a pig,Blue Meannie or a cop in this parked car here just "a man"-just FYI).
7/24/70-skin
7/26/70-think/shake
11/8/69-340 cipher has two stroke K's and three stroke K's placed correctly-note P is correctly positioned then it is reversed in another place.I know you know these features,but I point them out for someone who may not.Even the the O's and I's are this way-just kiding!
11/9/69-look like/Ask/killing/mask/blocks/park/think/take(twice)marked -modified
12/20/69-back(?)note r's are checked and 'normal'
3/13/71-like/back
5/8/74-all k's are two strokes
7/8/74-back/shrink
I viewed any and all Z letters both in books and on the net,including the good shots provided by ABCNEWS.I used magnifcation with different degrees of amplification with ultraviolet light and other various shades of light since 1987.
Until we see the originals this is how I see it.So I am done in this one area,except for side by sides in the future.
The two Zodiac 1974 missives are definite two strokes(anything else is bonus time -so enough for me)so it shows,like everything else,Z 'changed' from time to time using a certain style of letter-even within the same communication.He made the rules then broke them as he was in charge of letter content,character/style,etc.and modus operandi/signature, as it concerned the murders.
I note you have it that TK used the three stroke k(?),so was this another reason that this area concerns you?We know you are TK focused in most of your posts whether you use TKs name or not.

By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p51-44.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 159.134.51.44) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 10:38 am:

Howard,
What is it exactly that defines these "K's" as "two-stroke" to you? Please pick just a few of the ones that convince you most (from his know letters) so that we may use them for comparisons.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (pool-141-151-61-238.phil.east.verizon.net - 141.151.61.238) on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 10:51 am:

Howard, I think the examples you're looking at show a three-stroke K that might appear to be a two-stroke because the lines are run together.

By Sandy (Sandy) (adsl-67-123-77-151.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net - 67.123.77.151) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 01:16 pm:

I see the same things Howard see's in the K's and D's. Z liked to confuse,that was part of his game.His MO, was no MO, even in his printing.

By Hikingboots (cache-dk01.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.209.5) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 03:40 pm:

It's nice to see the old board again...

Animis_Opibusque_Parati

"BobbyGish"?

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-2718.linkline.com - 64.30.222.109) on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 05:35 pm:

Other observations.I will be posting more soon.
In the 7/8/74 Red Phantom letter we note that all u's do not have a vertical stem.Many of Zodiacs other letters have the stem.
All line counts will be from the salutation.
In the CN letter we find some of the u's are without the stem :until-line 7;just-line 8;quota-line 15;Susan-line 15;Judas-line 16;cut-line 19;and out-line 19.

The u with the vertical stem is found in the following words:You-line 2;you -line 4;applause-line7;You-line 8;you-line 17;your-line 18;lucky-line 18;you-line 19.

Please note the upper case F in "Family" on line 16.The center stem goes through the vertical line.
In the Z 11/9/69 letter on page 2/6 -line 14 -"Fake"-the letter F has the same anomaly.

Z connects his a's,but in the same letter he fails to connect the loop.We have the same thing in the CN letter.
Z connects the left angular bar to the stem of his y's,but in other places he does not.This trait will be within the same letter.
The same factor is found in the CN letter.There will be side by side displays of many single letters,etc.Time is the problem.I am quite excited about my study.

In the CN letter it is noted that some n's and m's are 'compressed' and others are not.This trait is seen in Z s missives also.

Some p's or the right loop ,in the CN are 'dome'(and somewhat'pointed'in some p's) shaped-others are 'normal.'The same is true in Zs letters.

In the CN the word "crap" is used.In Zs letters we find "dam" and "sh--.""Hell-slash"in the 340(?)very FYI here!
There's a lot more.Later...

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-2718.linkline.com - 64.30.222.109) on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 10:17 pm:

A little background info.The "I am back with you" letter was made public in April on 1978.In May the CN letter was sent,but was suppressed,but its writer was ,no doubt, stimulated by the publicity.
The CN mentions Eldrige Cleaver.His book Soul on Fire was coming out that year having been enjoying some pre publication publicity.
A typed letter was sent to J.Edgar Hoover on 4/2/71 which started out with "Dear Sir."One part of the letter says"Any fool can see that the courts are making a scapegoat out of the Manson Family...People like...Eldrige Cleaver...and the whole unsightly lot...[signed]... "Yours truly."
The letter ends with,"P.S.Please copy this letter and send it to seven people for good luck."FYI
In 1978 the Son of Sam case was making big news, so this could have been an influence to write.
As a really big FYI,Both Manson and Davis were to come up for parole later in 1978 for the first time.The Atkins testimony was a big obstacle.
The LAPD requested that the letter not be published so that whoever wrote it failed in their attempt to have it mentioned in the media.
Since The "Manson Family" and "Susan Atkins,"a member,is mentioned in the CN letter(including their known enemies like,Chief Davis who announced and worked on the Tate case solution and Chief Gates who publicly opposed parole for the Family and spoke out against them,etc.)I think this bit of info is of interest no matter what one believes about the letters authenticity.
Some interesting things concerning the CN letter will be posted soon,I hope.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-2718.linkline.com - 64.30.222.109) on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 10:20 pm:

David Berkowitz-Son of Sam,pleaded guilty May 8,1978 and was sentenced in June of that same year.