"Peek Through the Pines" postcard


Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Letters: "Peek Through the Pines" postcard

By Hurley (Hurley) (spider-tl083.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.207.213) on Saturday, November 04, 2000 - 11:03 am:

Does anyone know what the little white circle is on the top right of this postcard?

Also, did Zodiac make a "boo-boo"? This postcard was sent to the Chronicle on 3/22/71. The lettering on it says "Sought Victim 12".

Going backwards, Zodiac sent a letter 6/29/70 claiming victim 12. On 7/24/70 he sends another claiming 13 and on 10/5/70 a postcard was received 13 13th which my Graysmith book said they thought was a copy cat letter. Did he kill someone on 9/13/70?

So he's made a mistake, it's not Zodiac or does it have to do with the letter from 6/29/70?

By Jake (Jake) (spider-tr051.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.201.196) on Saturday, November 04, 2000 - 07:54 pm:

Hurley wrote:
"Does anyone know what the little white circle is on the top right of this postcard?"

It's a hole, made from what appears to be a regular, hand-held paper punch. On the opposite side of the card, the author outlined the circle and drew lines similar to those in the traditional crossed-circle. The entire edge of the postcard was also notched by the same instrument.

"Also, did Zodiac make a "boo-boo"? This postcard was sent to the Chronicle on 3/22/71....Zodiac sent a letter 6/29/70 claiming victim 12. On 7/24/70 he sends another claiming 13..."

Yeah, and there's the LA Times letter from March 13 which claims 17+.

"So he's made a mistake, it's not Zodiac or does it have to do with the letter from 6/29/70?"

I don't think Z was adhering to any particular pattern in his box-scores, least of all an accurate representation of his murders, so for me it's a toss-up between the first two. The writing on the address side isn't exactly classic Z; in fact, it doesn't look very convincing at all. The card is addressed to Paul "Averly," however, the same misspelling used on the Halloween Card's envelope: was this envelope public knowledge as of March '71? And what about the Times letter -- why the drop from 17+ to a measly 12?

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (142.philadelphia01rh.16.pa.dial-access.att.net - 12.90.17.142) on Saturday, November 04, 2000 - 08:25 pm:

One convincing element of the Pines card, however, is the use of an equal sign (=), in the manner seen with the confirmed Zodiac correspondences. The Pines card contains the line "Paul Averly = Chronicle." Some of the confirmed writings contain lines such as "SFPD=0," "[Zodiac sign]=10," etc.

This might also be an indication of a mathematical mindset.

By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (ac8f412e.ipt.aol.com - 172.143.65.46) on Saturday, November 04, 2000 - 08:50 pm:

Someone within the investigation supposedly admitted to forging the Pines card. I can't say who, but I'm sure most of the readers can figure it out.

By Jake (Jake) (spider-wi033.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.197.33) on Sunday, November 05, 2000 - 09:06 am:

Tom wrote:
"Someone within the investigation supposedly admitted to forging the Pines card. I can't say who, but I'm sure most of the readers can figure it out."

Whaaaat?! When did this admission occur? Does it sound legit, or is this another rumor like the one that Toschi wrote the LA Times letter?

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Howard (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 64.30.209.40) on Monday, January 08, 2001 - 11:39 pm:

Douglas-Good observation.Morrell, the premier authority on Zs writing said the writing was "consistent" with Zs known writing.The Avery misspelling is of interest also.The triplicate address is like the first cipher that was addressed to three newspapers.The punch job is like the 10/5/70 where a paper punch was employed.The paste up job is not unlike other Zodiac deals. After some time Dave Peterson accepted the Tahoe card. He rejected the forgery theory.More light on the Lass/postcard,etc.will come out when the situation calls for it.

By Peterh (Peterh) (adsl-141-154-74-221.bostma.adsl.bellatlantic.net - 141.154.74.221) on Monday, February 05, 2001 - 01:57 pm:

Anyone know if there was a blunt instrument trauma victim in the Tahoe or other Sierra area about this time? Sierra "club"?

PeterH

By Howard (Howard) (dialup-63.212.131.112.losangeles1.level3.net - 63.212.131.112) on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 05:10 pm:

Peterh-This is a good project. With E mail you can simply ask if there were any cases in that time frame. I have had no problem in this area-they think you may know something or that you are researching 187s. Or, that you are the perp! Just click Direct Hit and pop in South Lake Tahoe PD. Request them to direct you to other agencies in the area.The "club" reference is interesting-Z said "some of them fought it was horrible."Lass may have fought him.Her sun gLASSes,or those believed to be hers, which were found at about 14 inches down in the supposed grave site,appeared to be smashed-not from being in the earth;but it was as though they were damaged during a struggle. The "fought" card was sent a short time after Lass disappeared. Nuff said.

By Bill Bratton (Willy) (c1465163-a.sttls1.wa.home.com - 65.12.128.183) on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 04:49 pm:

FYI- I was checking out Mt. Diablo on the web and under the Mount Diablo Interpretive Association site ( see second map) I noticed that about a third of the way from the summit, there is a site identified as "The Pines".

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (244.philadelphia01rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 12.90.16.244) on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 10:19 pm:

Why don't we "peek through" them, and see what we find?

By Bill Bratton (Willy) (c1465163-a.sttls1.wa.home.com - 65.12.128.183) on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 11:59 pm:

Douglas- What are you saying exactly? I think you've got a thought that we aren't picking up just right. Please explain.

By Ed N (Ed_N) (spider-ntc-tb061.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.16.176) on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 12:26 am:

Bill: how about "The Pines" card?

By Bill Bratton (Willy) (c1465163-a.sttls1.wa.home.com - 65.12.128.183) on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 01:06 am:

Ed N: I was hoping that Douglas' "them" might mean something more than the obvious. If Douglas was making fool of me, I'm sorry that I wasn't up to recognizing it. I will soon be guilty of that again I'm afraid. You will find that I deposit information that may, or may not be of importance. Sometimes I form an opinion. Mostly I just pass data that the recipient can use or discard. Here, my "pines" reference is obviously tenuous. Hope I haven't got off on the wrong foot with you. I have digested most of your entries to this board and have great respect for you.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (proxy-dover.mednet.af.mil - 199.251.67.253) on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 05:12 am:

What I meant to say is, do some further research and see what it yields.

By Ed N (Ed_N) (spider-ntc-tc043.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.17.38) on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 10:14 am:

Bill: thanks for the vote of confidence. I figured you were unaware of the reference, as some posters are on occasion, unfortunately; they post something without having read much in the way of relevant material concerning this case. Sometimes too, the regs here can be somewhat enigmatic (myself included). In any case, I certainly do find your posts quite interesting so far, keep up the good work.

By Bookworm (Bookworm) (24.29.217.79) on Saturday, September 22, 2001 - 12:11 pm:

Pines Postcard

November 8th, 1969 - Dripping Pen Letter.
At the bottom of the page are months: Dec July Aug Sept Oct = 7

Aug could be short for "aught" which means zero.
The first letters of Dec Oct Sept could be and acronym for DOS, which is Spanish for "two."
The remaining J for July could represent an "H" in Spanish. Vallejo. j is pronounced h.

The Spanish for "eyes" is "ojos" July, Oct, Sept, the other O or punch hole was probably supposed to have been drilled with an auger. The Halloween Card has eyes "peeking" from within what looks to be a tree trunk, or log.

The hole punched in the "Pines Card" could represent a hole in the ice. Aug could also be short for "auger." There are small augers for drilling holes in wood, or larger ones for drilling holes in the earth or ice. Now police has the word "ice" in it. Also augers are used to drill holes in the earth for "poles." Did they have any polish policemen?

On p.130 in Don Foster's book, Kaczynski uses the address 3414, as the return address of his book bomb (Ice Brothers) to Percy Wood.

34 is 2X17 and 14 is left over. In the 408 cipher, if you go down two rows and over 14 symbols from left to right in each of the three, you get the letters "u" "g" and "n." It spells gun. If you go down one row, (the address would be 5114,5+4=9,11/9) in each of the 340 ciphers, you would get "g" "o" and "l," which spells log. In the 23rd line of the 340 cipher, there is an extra "e" at the end of the line, and the symbol looks like an eye.

November 9th, 1969 Letter read: "If you cops thin I'm going to take on a bus the way I stated I was, you deserve to have holes in your head."

The Dec. looks like Des, which is the beginning of "deserve" in the 11/9 letter.

Sierra Club and Sought = berriSSa and Clu(clue.) ought = aught If you look up aught, you will find auger. Berryessa Lake = assL(Lass), Berr(bearer(ring)), yessa(sayes(say yes)). Also, lass in the dictionary means "sweetheart."

In line 21 of the 340 cipher, in the middle of the words slow down(sloidown) are the words "i do" and "id." The Victim 12 could actually be 21(line)in reverse. Sounds like a wedding. He overlaps strings of numbers and letters to form circles, like a ring.

A traditional gift for a 7th wedding anniversary is something "wool/copper," and for the fifth anniversary, it is "wood." d and l are the different letters in wool and wood, which are Donna Lass's initials. 7 + 5 = 12. July 5th is also the day Darlene Ferrin was killed. Copper is a term for "cop."

Just some ideas.

By Bookworm (Bookworm) (24.29.217.79) on Saturday, September 22, 2001 - 01:36 pm:

Correction:
All the parts in the above post that say 340 cipher should be the 408 cipher.

By Lapumo (Lapumo) (159.134.150.211) on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 10:53 am:

Bookworm,that was an interesting observation you
made that I had not noticed before...The "eyes" on the Halloween card apparently peeking through a Tree or log and the obvious connection to the pine card.Tom,however, did suggest that there were some doubts about the authenticity of the latter.
That being that suggestions were made that an insider admitted to forging the latter.If that were true it would be interesting to find out Why
this person did forge the card.Was it someone with a grudge who did it for the hell of it or perhaps a detective who wanted to point to a suspect he may have been "high on"!.

By Bookworm (Bookworm) (cb23775-b.rmvll1.il.home.com - 24.182.40.121) on Sunday, October 21, 2001 - 07:16 pm:

Lapumo, if someone did forge that card, I think they had to know a lot more than everyone else about the way Zodiac thinks.

In the 340 Cipher, look at coordinates (1,12)through (1,17.) Coordinates (1,13), (1,14), and (1,15)could mean "Lake Tahoe Gold."

Coordinate (1,17)looks like a "peeking" eye, "Peeking through the pines".

Bracketing the letters L,T,G, are those two half white and half black circles. They are reverse patterns, like the reverse ("around in the snow") and other writing on the post card. The circles could represent South Tahoe and North Tahoe.

Donna Lass disappeared from South Tahoe, and President JFK was last at North Tahoe, on September 28, 1963, before he was assassinated.
http://ceres.ca.gov/tcsf/PresidentialEvent/tribune_presidential_visits.html Berryessa murder was on September 27.
Notice (2,15), (2,16) and (3, 17) are the initials JFK. (2,17) could imply Kennedy's being shot through the head, which could be the H (Hit) at (3,16.) Zodiac sign next to H(3,16.)

Then at (4,15) and (4,6)is RK, Robert Kennedy. RK also was said to have visited North Lake Tahoe, which could be the (4,17)halved circle with same shading as JFK's.

Notice the H(hit)(3,16)is at the center of the nine Kennedy coordinates. Robert Kennedy was shot on June 4, 6/4 = 6,1+3. The Zodiac symbol is at (3,15)

Richard Cain, according to Giancana in "Double Cross" was one of the JFK assassins. I mentioned him in my post on the "My name is...cipher.

His initials, RC, are 18th and 3rd letter in the alphabet. The only combination for a coordinate in the 340 cipher is (3,18)which again is the Zodiac symbol. Kane is also another spelling for Cain.

By Bookworm (Bookworm) (cb23775-b.rmvll1.il.home.com - 24.182.40.121) on Sunday, October 21, 2001 - 07:33 pm:

Note: Arthur Leigh Allen's birthday was 12/18. Add the 1 and 2 = 8, or 3/18 - (3,18)Zodiac symbol. Leigh may have been a mob hitman wanna be, the ciphers were made after the assassinations, but how would he have known about Richard Cain?

By Bookworm (Bookworm) (cb23775-b.rmvll1.il.home.com - 24.182.40.121) on Monday, October 22, 2001 - 02:21 pm:

A correction: Rk (Robert Kennedy)coordinates are: (4,15) and (4,16.)

The Lake Tahoe info is in the postage stamp corner (upper right) of the 340 Cipher. You never know, it could mean something.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-50.linkline.com - 64.30.217.50) on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 12:40 am:

I have posted on the Pines card in the past that it is a Zodiac communication and I have listed those reasons.I want to add another.The Halloween card is an accepted Zodiac communication.The lettering is brushed on according to GS in ZU page 504. In the photo section between pages 376 and 377 GS brings out that the lettering on the Pines card is done using "brush lettering."Note that "Averly" is a misspelling of Paul Averys name.The same misspelling of his name is on the authentic Zodiac Halloween card.Same two communications with the misspelled name AND brush lettering.FYI

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (191.philadelphia01rh.16.pa.dial-access.att.net - 12.90.17.191) on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 06:25 am:

Funny, but the handwriting on the front of the card displays several traits not found in the other Zodiac writing styles. The "h" and "n" are pointed, rather than rounded, and have distinct tails. The "a" in "Zodiac" has a very pronounced tail. The period in "attn." is halfway up from the baseline. Then, there's the use of the equal sign, which Zodiac used on a number of occasions to indicate his "score." That could be a very telling indication: using the concept of equivalency to relate two things, i.e., SFPD=0; Paul Averly=Chronicle.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (spider-ntc-tb031.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.16.161) on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 03:02 pm:

Morrell said that the lettering on the Pines card was "consistent" with Zodiacs known writing.In studying the Riverside communications we find that there are so called letter differences.These are allowed within acceptable ranges.Many have made much of the ds,but we find that there are different styles of ds which I pointed out in some past posts.It is the "preponderence of similarities",that indicate a match and are so given in Document reports.Pen depressions,pen lift points,linear base pattern,proportionate heights between letters,spacing between letters and words,with all of the sub points of indentity, are much more vital to determining a match with single letter comparisons, which is a pick and choose proposition.I can "match" a lot of writings to Z by selecting single letters in different individuals handwriting and place them parallel to Zodiacs known lettering.No problem!As the late Dr.Henry Silver stated ,who had some 50 years of Document examination experience,that isn't true document comparison.I fully agree.

By Ray N (Ray_N) (user-38ldcdc.dialup.mindspring.com - 209.86.177.172) on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 07:34 pm:

I have always held to the belief that the peek through the pines card was authentic. Not only that, but a follow-on to the Halloween card. Together, these are the two most interesting items ever submitted by Zodiac. I think they are also two of the most important. They contain so much cryptic information, it's hard to believe there's not something extremely important in there.

By Tony (Mahalo) (hnllhi1-ar1-4-63-132-167.hnllhi1.dsl-verizon.net - 4.63.132.167) on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 09:41 pm:

I was surprised to note the difference in my own hand printing style this week. I'm a musician and when I'm writing out set lists or printing out instrument channels on the soundboard, I write entirely different than when casually writing so me and the crew will notice it. When I noticed a 3 stroked 'K' (which I otherwise never do) it gave me a bit of a shiver and of course I thought about Z's contrived writing.Just a note.T

By Zander Kite (Zk) (a010-1027.stbg.splitrock.net - 64.196.37.11) on Sunday, April 28, 2002 - 07:47 pm:

Ray, I'm in complete agreement. I also believe it's authentic, and so riddled with clues that Zodiac was compelled to give an out-of-sequence victim count, just in case. And/or he needed "12" to represent the word "dozen" and not "twelve". If I'm not mistaken, there are 17 words listed, which makes things very interesting. I've got some good stuff brewing at the moment!! Not one of my favorites, but the 3 ALA words equal "Around Lake Areas". Not the greatest, but something. Remember when Zodiac wrote "are the police haveing...". Interesting, as well!!

By Howard Davis (Howard) (spider-ntc-tb064.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.16.179) on Sunday, April 28, 2002 - 09:49 pm:

Ray N,
You are correct,I believe, as there seems to be a connection.All talk of forgery will have to be proven in a proper legal setting instead of detective 'gossip', which some of them are notorious for.I have spoken to many retired detectives(and some not so retired!)and you'd be surprised at what they say about each other!There seems to be a conncetion to the 10/5/70 postcard pasteup,both have hole punches.More on this later I have to watch Jamie kennedy!I nead a good laff!

By Ray N (Ray_N) (user-38ldesa.dialup.mindspring.com - 209.86.187.138) on Sunday, April 28, 2002 - 11:05 pm:

The biggest thing in my mind against a forgery is the theme. There are some real clues that have come out lately which relate to some of the things in peek through the pines. These relate to the halloween card. That the phrase peek through the pines is in there is telling. In short, this smacks of something out of the mind of Zodiac. It borders on bizarre but only because we realize we don't know something. If we knew what it was, we wouldn't think it was so bizarre. No offense, but I doubt any of the detectives had the time, the imagination, or the inclination to come up with something with as pointed a meaning as this appears to have.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (179.philadelphia04rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 12.90.22.179) on Monday, April 29, 2002 - 01:13 am:

Most of the content on the Pines card is quite understandable when related to Kaczynski. At the time of its mailing, Kaczynski had left his parents' house in Lombard, Illinois, and driven in his car to the Western U.S. After an absence of three weeks he showed up at his brother's apartment in Great Falls, Montana with plans for buying land in the state and building the shack he would eventually call his home. A few observations:

•The state tree of Montana is the Ponderosa Pine.
•Kaczynski joined the Sierra Club between 1967 and 1969. The Sierra Club is a back-to-nature organization;
Kaczynski's intention at the time was to go back to nature, renouncing the amenities of civilization.
•The main highway from the Bay Area to Montana runs directly past Lake Tahoe.
•The ad from which the card was constructed offers "Mountain Condominiums" or new dwellings in
the mountain; precisely what Kaczynski was contemplating at the time.

By Spencer (Spencer) (acc18747.ipt.aol.com - 172.193.135.71) on Monday, April 29, 2002 - 01:21 am:

"[Kaczynski] showed up at his brother's apartment in Great Falls, Montana with plans for buying land in the state and building the shack he would eventually call his home."

Sounds quaint, doesn't it? He sure aimed high.

Way to go, Ted.

Spencer

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (179.philadelphia04rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 12.90.22.179) on Monday, April 29, 2002 - 01:39 am:

Another strike against him, Spencer. You've got to be pretty disaffected to do what Kaczynski did; you've got to despise human society to the point where you're willing to give up every amenity of civilized existence in order to escape it.

While I'm at it, I should point out that the sequence of Zodiac mailings in early 1971 bring Kaczynski under great suspicion. Here is an individual who is otherwise a very good suspect for the Zodiac crimes, domiciled two thousand miles away in Illinois, who just happens to have been tooling around the western U.S. at the time of those two 1971 mailings, with his actual whereabouts unknown. Notice that the first correspondence, the L.A. times letter, addresses the subject of the Riverside connection--yet more than four months had elapsed since that supposed connection was broken in the media. I suppose it's possible that the egocentric, taunting Zodiac hadn't yet gotten around to mailing his rejoinder to the Bates connection, but it hardly seems likely. What's more probable is that Zodiac, whatever his identity, simply wasn't in the Bay Area during the preceding four months; had he mailed a note from outside the area, his cover might well have been blown.

Kaczynski spent the next several years preoccupied with establishing himself in the wilderness and learning to survive. Is it only coincidence that we see no further Zodiac letters until January 1974, a time when, once again, his whereabouts were unknown? (He sent a letter to his family, stating that he would be "away camping" during the winter of 1974). We know he spent the winter of 1973 in Salt Lake City; the winter of 1975 in Oakland. We don't know where he wintered in 1974, but it's no stretch to think that he might have been somewhere in the Bay Area, working for a temp agency as he had during '73 and '75.

By Oddball (Oddball) (slip-32-103-46-216.al.us.prserv.net - 32.103.46.216) on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 12:24 am:

I have always felt the Pines card was a genuine communication from Z, too, but I still wonder about the supposed admission of forgery. It's frustrating that the whole thing remains up in the air.

By Ed N (Ed_N) (acbee81d.ipt.aol.com - 172.190.232.29) on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 01:06 pm:

I've often wondered about it's authenticity, especially since the victim count appears to be incorrect for the date. What little writing there was was supposedly consistent with Z's known writings, but then, there was hardly any to examine anyway, and don't documents examiners need pages of exemplars to even make a judgment one way or the other?

Remember that the 10-5-1970 card was thought to be authentic, apparently because the victim count was consistent with earlier communications, yet the Pines card is considered authentic despite the inconsistent count. Thus, two inconsistent ways are used to determine the authenticity of different communications: victim count and handprinting. I'm not certain that we can have it both ways. If not, then either one or the other is a hoax (or perhaps even both, since I've had doubts about the 10-5-1970 card as well).

When we add the admission of a hoax by someone close to the case of one of the 1971 communications, it makes it more apparent that the Pines card is not genuine (I'm not sure I'd attempt a hoax with lots of handprinting like the LA Times letter, but rather one with hardly any, like the Pines card). Coupled with the dubious connection to the disappearance of Donna Lass, the criminal signature of which doesn't fit with the known Z victims, makes it all the more certain to me that it is a hoax, either by this person close to the case, or by the person who abducted and presumably murdered Donna Lass who attempted to place the blame on a notorious killer already in the news.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-136.linkline.com - 64.30.217.136) on Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 12:50 am:

Ed,
We know that Z made lots of mistakes in most,if not all areas,of his crime series.He could have simply made a mistake in his victim count.There were gaps,and who knows what was going on in his life at the time-he may have miscounted.After Stine, we just don't which number counts refer to whom,if they do ,in fact, indicate real victims!
The phrase "Sought Victim 12"always bothered me."Sought" not killed,but searched for.Did he mean 'I had to seek or search out victim 12,'whoever that was(it doesn't have to be Lass-Z was wiley for sure)and that there was some kind of difficulty in doing this-the 'seeking',that is.
We know his "count" was 13 in his 7/24/70;7/2670 letters and then a proleptic "14"in the 10/27/card.The 10/5/70 postcard had "13"for supposed victims and the two July letters with the 13 count had not been published for the public to know about the 13 victim tabulation.Both the 10/5/70 and the 10/27/70 had hole punches ("Though the holes were rather small they [police/public?]had to count them all"-the Beatles song;also,"A Sea of Holes" and "Fixing a Hole",FYI)and were BRUSH LETTERED and were sent the same month!Why someone would risk a lifetime career with pension for forging that dumb Pines card is beyond me.It seems like a Z deal to me.Just as Z addressed all three papers in July of '69,our card sender does the same misspelling of Averys name as found on the 10/27/70 card.The word "crackproof"(see "cracked"in another Z missive) is found on the 10/5/70 card and an authentic Z missive.All linked up.The 10/5/70 card asks for the money count on his head as does a past Z letter.

By Oddball (Oddball) (slip-32-103-46-2.al.us.prserv.net - 32.103.46.2) on Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 02:41 am:

Howard: interesting point about "Sought." My gut feeling remains that the Pines card is the real deal...I just wish I knew more details about the supposed forgery. Despite the fact that Dave Toschi did send "fanmail" to himself, I agree that faking something comparatively elaborate like the Pines card is a different matter altogether.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 64.30.209.40) on Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 12:34 pm:

Odd',
Right, and a forgery charge in this case,especially,is very serious and is subject to imprisonment, loss of pension and not to mention professional permanent castigation with shame brought to the family of the forger,etc.-all for a postard!
There is NO court record indicating that ANY forger was brought to court and tried and found guilty.All we have is a gossip'statement' by a detective.Oh me!
And,yes,the"fanmail" thing was TOTALLY different than forging a probable Zodiac postcard and writing about 'victim 12' and an unsolved abduction!Why pick Lake Tahoe,which is outside Ca,when all the knowns were committed in the Bay Area?A forger would stay with the orthodox fact all 87s were in the Bay Area.The cryptic postcard is very much like Z,not some detective in S.F.!

By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-165.linkline.com - 64.30.217.165) on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 01:11 am:

More Pines.The card was sent on 3/22/71 which is a Z trait and points to,in my opinion,KJs abduction which occured exactly one year earlier.Z would ,at times,do two missives(he did three in 7/31/69!)in one month.In Nov.'69 we have two communications.In '70 there are two deals starting in April.July we have two Zs and in Oct.there are two(which gives us some more validity to the 10/5/70 card)AND in March we have TWO,including the Pines card!
I think the paste ons were clues as to the general area where Lass was supposedly buried.I have posted my opinions on the 'grave site' here and on my site:www.zodiacmurders.If I am correct,then this dismisses a forgery by a detective as that site was found and examined by Dave Peterson and others.That equal sign is a nice Zodiac touch that would have been missed by the kind of forger we are talking about.
Note,in going back to the 10/5/70 card that the term "city pig police cops"was used by Zodiac in a former communciation with very similar phraseology.
As a last point ,I also note that the three(just like the three missives of July '69)'67 notes sent in Riverside, that the envelopes had,like the Pines card,four cent Lincoln stamps.

By Tony (Mahalo) (hnllhi1-ar1-4-63-133-171.hnllhi1.dsl-verizon.net - 4.63.133.171) on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 03:34 am:

I'm with you, Howard. I mean, would Toschi admitt to anyone that he forged a Z letter. What other proof could they have unless they fingerprinted any letter before Toschi touched it with Toschi's prints. Then, Wallah!

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 64.30.209.40) on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 11:05 am:

Tony,
I think it's reasonable to want proof from a legal standpoint for such a serious charge as forgery- not some detectives 'word.'I have followed up too many 'stories' from detectives that swore(and I mean affirmed with conviction as they were there,etc.) such and such was true or happened and when I finally,sometimes years later, got the reports...guess what?

I think that detectives are great.People like detective Baker are fantastic (sorry,but one of my idols!)and are very careful,detailed, analytical and relentless(he still goes over old cases!) concerning case facts,etc.Few can do what they do;I am only referring to those,like the late LT.Earl Deemer of LAPD told me,have a tendency to exaggerate,lie or distort.All professions have this problem.The few give the many a bad name.I have always told them can you show me the report and/or court record.That usually does it!

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (199.251.68.84) on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 11:11 am:

I imagine many of them inherit old, cold cases and never really get around to delving into all the details. Most police departments have as much as they can handle just dealing with the current caseload.

By Esau (Esau) (12-246-187-137.client.attbi.com - 12.246.187.137) on Tuesday, July 16, 2002 - 04:26 pm:

I just got back from another mini-vacation at Lake Berryessa. On Friday night as I was playing air hockey at the lounge. I had a conversation with a local that has lived there since the mid 1960's. He mentioned a place up there called the pines. I asked him about it. He was referring to a housing developement called Lake Berryessa Pines that was built back in the mid 60's. It's near Rancho Monticello Resort and the locals refer to it as "The Pines". I asked him what he knew about Zodiac. He said he was a teenager when Hartnell and Shepherd were attacked and most of the locals up there want to forget it ever happened. He said the only time anyone really talks about it is when nuts come up there asking stupid questions. He assured me I wasn't one of them...........

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 64.30.209.40) on Wednesday, July 17, 2002 - 01:36 pm:

Esau,
An interesting bit of info about The Pines.Did you ask about the Penny Lane that is near the Courners?

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (95.philadelphia01rh.16.pa.dial-access.att.net - 12.90.17.95) on Wednesday, July 17, 2002 - 04:14 pm:

A while back someone (I believe Tom) posted a SFPD document titled "Suspected Zodiac Correspondence," that purported to list all Zodiac missives extant in the SFPD files. One such listing completely took me by surprise because I had never seen it referenced anywhere before. Dated 7/13/71, it was sent to the SF Chronicle and is described in the document as "LETTERS PASTED ON PICTURE 'NEAR MONTICELLO SHOUGHT VICTIMS 21 .... IN THE WOODS DIES APRIL.'" It seems very much as if this might be a follow-up to the Pines card.

By Esau (Esau) (12-246-187-137.client.attbi.com - 12.246.187.137) on Wednesday, July 17, 2002 - 06:26 pm:

Howard, I did bring that up to a few old timers up there and none of them ever heard of it. I guess next time I'm up there I could stop on Penny Lane and talk to some of the residents.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 64.30.209.40) on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 12:00 pm:

Doug,
I remember that one too-but your observation/ link to the Pines card is very interesting!Good idea.
Was the postcards reference "Peek through the pines" a Z like dual reference to LB?Just a thought.

By Daijove (Daijove) (1cust181.tnt1.san-angelo.tx.da.uu.net - 67.202.28.181) on Sunday, August 11, 2002 - 02:30 pm:

The obvious is being missed. The card tells it all. Peek through the pines shows construction of a condominum. Did Zodiac in all his arrogance tell the authorities where Donna Lass is buried? Did he work on the construction site as he did at Riverside and at San Fransico State college? Did he eventually buy a time-share at the very condominium pictured in the card? My "man" did buy a time-share at the condominium site when it was completed.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-139-118.client.attbi.com - 12.224.139.118) on Sunday, August 11, 2002 - 02:41 pm:

So how about start a new thread in the Suspects topic with details, or quit wasting our time with hints.

By Ray N (Ray_N) (user-38ldc59.dialup.mindspring.com - 209.86.176.169) on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 04:51 pm:

Daijove,

The name of Zodiac's main game was misdirection - sleight-of-hand. I would submit that although there is plenty that is being missed in these later mailings, it's not what is obvious that needs to be looked at. After all, it is entirely possible that all Zodiac was looking for was a picture of the woods or the forest for his postcard, and this one fit the bill when he ran across it in the paper. It is also more than likely that he had no idea a young woman by the name of Donna Lass was missing from Lake Tahoe. This has had various investigators making a huge leap in connecting the disappearance of Ms. Lass to the Zodiac series. After all, nothing about her "abduction" matches any of the known Z MO's. And, of course, those that subscribe to the theory that Zodiac wasn't pulling our legs when he said, "I shall no longer announce my killings" can't really use this as a map of her burial site now can they? I would submit that Zodiac was in effect "pulling his hair out" at the incapacity of anyone at the time to notice what he thought was "the obvious". This card referred to something we should have already noticed, but missed. So you are right, something has been missed, and it's been sitting there for a long time. I'd like to hear what exactly you think that is in the context of an overall theory.