X s Mark the Spots?
Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Letters: X s Mark the Spots?
|By Peterh (Peterh) (184.108.40.206) on Tuesday, December 19, 2000 - 12:23 pm:|
Does anyone have any insight on the five Xs modifying the Zodiac signature symbol on
the long Nov. 10, 1969 letter? The article at Jake's sight speculates that they stand for
five victims, but why these particular locations? I noticed something curious about it.
The five X's are spaced in roughly 30 degree intervals, or multiples of about 30 degrees.
(It's impossible to be precise here, because they are done freehand, but just eyeballing
it, that's what I see.) This means that each alternate pair is spaced about 60 degrees
apart. I.e., numbering them from top to bottom 1 through 5, 1 and three are about 60
degrees, 2 and 4 are about 60 degrees, and 3 and 5 are also about 60 degrees apart.
"About" 60 degrees. Also "about" 57.5 degrees, or one radian. I also
note that the Mt. Diablo letter says that the Mt. Diablo code has to do with radians &
# inches along radians. That's radians, plural. Put this symbol on the Mt. Diablo map, and
the angle formed by Xs 1 and 3 are approximately the Penn (BRS/Stine) radian.
Another way to look at the points marked by the Xs: they are at 6, 8, 9, 10, and 11 respectively on a watch face. Or on the Mt. Diablo Z symbol. Anything here?
|By Gregorypraxas (Gregorypraxas) (spider-mtc-ta051.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Tuesday, December 19, 2000 - 04:02 pm:|
I noticed that, when the symbol is placed on Mt. Diablo, the x's which are approximately 60 degrees apart align with the SF/BRS&LH scenes. This obseration was noted, yet misrepresented on the TLC documentary CASE REOPENED some time ago. On that program, the x's were not properly marked on the map. Yet, it is clear that when that symbol is placed over Mt. Diablo, that the x's align with the following sites:
(starting from the first X and moving clockwise)
1: SF (Stine scene)
2: BRS and LH (approximately - BRS falls at roughly 58-59 degrees; LH at 60)The distance between the first and second x's is approxiamtely 60 degrees.
3: Lake Berryessa (although a line through that x does not fall on the actual scene, it does intersect the bottom of the lake)
4: Magnetic North
5: Lake Tahoe
Now, does this mean that is how the symbol is supposed to be interpreted? I cannot say. Is it possible that the symbol, with its sections of roughly 30 degrees each (and one measured to be approximately 60 degrees), could be an astrological Zodiac, and that the murder scenes are meant to be located and measured within those sections? Yes. Is that the only interpretation? No, of course not. Rather, I simply made an observation, much like your own.
You have placed the x's in different positions than I, and it is perfectly possible that your interpretation is more plausible than my observation. It would be interesting to hear the thoughts of others on this matter (that is, it would be interesting to hear people entertain these ideas and dicuss their own ideas and the pros and cons of these interpretations, rather than be bashed and insulted for simply implying that the symbol, the scenes, and radians may be somehow connected).
|By Jake Wark (Jake) (spider-wg011.proxy.aol.com - 18.104.22.168) on Tuesday, December 19, 2000 - 07:56 pm:|
"The article at Jake's sight speculates that they stand for five victims, but why these particular locations?"
In fairness, I'd like to point out that that was law enforcement's theory long before I mentioned it. Personally, I find it interesting that each X -- and the small tick marks along the right side of the circle -- match up to the numbers on a clock face. I don't think anyone has yet pointed that out.
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."
|By Peterh (Peterh) (22.214.171.124) on Wednesday, December 20, 2000 - 07:29 am:|
Jake wrote: "Personally, I find it interesting that each X -- and the small tick
marks along the right side of the circle -- match up to the numbers on a clock face. I
don't think anyone has yet pointed that out."
I just did. Okay, I said "watch face". It's as if the Xs check off certain positions, i.e. 6,8,9,10 and 11, that have achieved some significance -- such as attacks completed, by location, or date, or even time -- and the tick marks indicate numbers yet to be checked. Any significance to this particular series of numbers?
BTW Gregory: In aligning the points as you did, you appear to have rotated the symbol 90 degrees clockwise. Why? In my observation, if it is aligned just as it appears in both the message and the map, you do get one approximate radian aligning SF and BRS (and approximately LHR and LB, as you note, but the others are all over the map and do not seem to correspond to any known Z sites.
|By Jake Wark (Jake) (spider-wc074.proxy.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Wednesday, December 20, 2000 - 07:49 pm:|
Peter -- I apologize, I was in a hurry and anxious to assign credit to SFPD (or
whoever) for the x-marks-the-victims theory. Kudos to you for spotting the clock motif,
too. I had it posted on my "It's About Time" page, but it looks like I
disqualified myself by removing it.
I had another hunch a while back that the Xs stood for Bay Area victims and the smaller crossed-circle stood for Bates; that sort of evaporated when "Barnett" came up. I suppose it might still be relevant, but I'll leave the theorizing to you guys.
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."
|By Gregorypraxas (Gregorypraxas) (spider-wg071.proxy.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Thursday, December 21, 2000 - 01:24 am:|
At the risk of being accused of failing to use scientific methods, I only observed that the distance between those two X's approximated a radian, and then placed those X's over the SF and BRS scenes. Once I had done so, the other X's simply aligned with those other sites. There was no other reason for my rotating the symbol. I make no claim that this was Zodiac's intention; rather, I was just pointing out the observation in response to your request for the thoughts or insights of readers.
I am intrigued by your clock face interpretation, however, and would like to hear your thoughts on the matter, and those of anyone else who would care to comment. Do you have any ideas about how this symbol might possibly relate to the so-called clockface on the Mt. Diablo map?
|By Peterh (Peterh) (184.108.40.206) on Thursday, December 21, 2000 - 07:35 am:|
The reason I questioned your rotating the symbol is that it is unnecessary to establish the BRS/Diablo/SF (Penn) radian. In fact, if the symbol is aligned on Mt Diablo _as is_ and aligned with magnetic north as Z indicates on the Phillips map, the Penn radian is at least approximated by the Xs at the 9:00 and 11:00 postions. That of course leaves the others -- 6,8, and 10 pointing all over Marin and the Peninsula and into the Pacific, but, hey, at least that's a body of water. The largest on the planet in fact. Remember also that Z's express purpose for the whole Mt Diablo thing ("the Mt. Diablo code") had to do with the location of the bus bomb, and it was Penn who led us all down the path of looking at known or suspected Z sites, suspects, etc. Let's get back to the bomb site. The Xs give us three (approximate) radians, consistent with the plural used in the Mt Diablo Code letter. Now, what about "# inches along the radians"? Any guesses?
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p146.as1.virginia1.eircom.net - 220.127.116.11) on Thursday, December 21, 2000 - 09:24 am:|
Peterh wrote:-"Let's get back to the bomb site.The
Xs give us three (approximate)radians,consistent with the plural used in the Mt Diablo Code letter.
Now,what about "# inches along the radians"?Any guesses?.
I brought this up in another section,in an attempt
to look at things from another angle (pardon the pun).If there ever was a bomb,the site Zodiac picked would have to fit certain criteria for it to work.I thought the second bomb diagram offered clues to this site.Given that we know the bus to be travelling south,for the bomb to work it would have to be along a road with some significant elevation or hills to the west.Zodiac also depicts
a "string of bombs";-it would also therefore seem likely that this stretch of road would be in an isolated area.He would have to be able to bury these bombs and he also spoke about shooting the kids as they got off.It seems unlikely he would be able to bury these on the road itself,so maybe we are looking at a narrow road also.The diagram,
(depending what you choose to read into it)seems to suggest this.It also seems likely he would have to avoid areas of with heavy traffic.Anyway,I
wonder if any of these radians passes through such an area,it may at least help to cut down the options.
At time of writing I have not yet fully studied what Gregory,Jake and yourself have been discussing,vis-a-vie the clock face and rotating 90 degrees,however it does bring to mind EdN's theory about starting at magnetic north or 12 O clock with the "starter arrow,pointer,Big hand!and
counting clockwise in radians or if you prefer hours on the clock around to the correct direction
Come to think of it as I write,I wonder if an exact radian measure or group of radian measures coincides with an exact hour on the clock??
|By Peterh (Peterh) (18.104.22.168) on Thursday, December 21, 2000 - 11:09 am:|
The arc between alternate numbers on the clock face (2 hours for the hour hand and ten
minutes for the minute hand)is exacly 60 degrees, or anout 2.5 degrees greater than a
radian. So a radian would cover any interval of just under 2 hours (about 1:56) for the
hour hand or about 9.5 minutes for the minute hand. Oh, ok, and about 9.5 seconds for the
One further note about the Mt. Diablo "clock". The 12 o'clock position is labled "0", not "12". Hmmmmmm......
|By Realtor (Realtor) (22.214.171.124) on Friday, December 22, 2000 - 11:17 am:|
I thought Z said that the Mt. Diablo CODE and the map and the bomb placements were
related to the radians and the number of inches along the radian. So I started trying to
use the clock face to be a "decoder ring". I put the letter/code equivalents on
the clock face, starting "A" at 0/12 o'clock position, "B" at one
o'clock, around a time or two clockwise until I'd placed all the letters in the alphabet.
Then I placed the equivalent letters/symbols 180 degrees ACROSS from the letter they stood
for in the cracked code from the three part cipher. THEN I tried to crack the 340
character cipher by travelling across the clock face, plus up one segment or back one
segment, depending on whether there was an "X" at those places (6,8,9,10,11,
etc.) but I've gotten nowhere. In any event, it's a possible way to interpret the map, the
old code, the new code, the clock face, the radians, and the number of inches along the
radians...to read the 340 character cipher to find out where the bombs were supposed to
What do you code-breakers think about the idea?
|By Jimm (Jimm) (spider-ntc-tc041.proxy.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Saturday, December 23, 2000 - 08:19 am:|
If you look at the Phillips 66 map Z has an arrow
head at the top of the zodiac symbol pointing at the "O". It looks like he also has an arrow head
pointing at the "#" when he said the map related to radians and inches. The zodiac symbol on the map is neither a compass rose nor a true watch face, and since he indicated the "O" with an arrow
head,"O" may mean "nothing" IMOH.
|By Realtor (Realtor) (1cust98.tnt20.hou3.da.uu.net - 188.8.131.52) on Saturday, December 23, 2000 - 09:50 am:|
OK, so if it's not a compass rose or a true watch face, what do you think it is? Idle
doodling? He went to all this trouble to send in a map to mean nothing? BTW, the
"arrow" in the note about the relationship of the map/code/radians/inches
appears to me to be a caret(I think that's what it's called), a mark used by editors,
secretaries, proofreaders, etc., to mean "insert what I wrote above the line"
(or below the line if the caret points downward). Z just "edited" what he wrote
when he realized he left something out--so it didn't mean "Nothing." It meant
"be sure to include something else, written above." The "O" as you
called it on the map appears to me be be "0", i.e., "zero," meaning
All this to say that I think Z was trying to be as precise as he could be, and still not give away the game.
|By Eduard (Eduard) (hmm-dca-ap01-d08-124.dial.freesurf.nl - 184.108.40.206) on Monday, January 28, 2002 - 06:18 am:|
I believe I have found the solution to the meaning of the symbol with the X's on it.
On Thursday or Friday I will put the solution on my website.
P.S. It has nothing to do with locations, and it is a simple solution!
|By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-20-251.bos.east.verizon.net - 220.127.116.11) on Monday, January 28, 2002 - 07:13 am:|
Are you talking about time of day? I tried that, and there are some matches, but there's not a complete correlation. Interested to see what you come up with.
|By obiwan (Obiwan) (ciw2.ciw.edu - 18.104.22.168) on Monday, January 28, 2002 - 07:39 pm:|
> I believe I have found the solution to the meaning of the symbol with the X's on
> On Thursday or Friday I will put the solution on my website.
One possible simple solution is that an X is missing from the 7 O'clock position,
and that this letter was written when Z was claiming 7 victims.
(According to the Dripping Pen Letter, mailed the previous day)
|By obiwan (Obiwan) (ciw2.ciw.edu - 22.214.171.124) on Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 12:52 am:|
Nevertheless, the notion that the X's represent crimes which Z committed merits further
study. A logical guess is that the origin of this unit circle is Mt. Diablo.
If we take Lake B. or L. Hernan Rd. as the Top, or 12 O'Clock position, then the X at the 6 O'clock position falls in a line with the Gaviotas site of the 1963 murders, (near Santa Barbara).
Of course, this does not explain why an X is missing from the 12 O'clock position.
If anyone has a map of the exact locations of the crimes, or their positions (Lat/Lon) that would help.