Zodiac DNA Story, 5/18/01


Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Zodiac Media: Zodiac DNA Story, 5/18/01

By Jake (Jake) (spider-mtc-ta012.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.105.22) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 12:19 pm:

It's all over the AP wire, but here's the primary source:

http://www.sfexaminer.com/news/default.jsp?story=n.zodiac.0518w

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/index.html
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Peter_H (Peter_H) (cbrg1964.capecod.net - 64.152.211.186) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 02:37 pm:

As we anticipate these results, we should keep in mind that even a dead bang DNA ID will not mark the end of this case. In fact, it will increase the importance and intensity of work in a number of areas. If as we have read, the DNA is from a stamp, all it can identify directly is who licked the stamp, presumably the writer of the letter. That is far from case closed end of discussion. It then becomes of paramount importance exactly how the letter bearing the DNA stamp is connected with each of the crimes. At that point, we will need to see the detailed chain of connection: to the other letters through handwritng; to LHR and BRS through inside information in the letters, and to LB through the Ghia handwritng. This means that Morril's work, or a replication of it, will become of prime importance. In fact, if the suspect is Allen, all second hand reports, whether in the press or CDOJ report, will then be completely unsatisfactory. The only thing that will do then is the direct, detailed handprinting and inside knowledge analysis. In fact, it may be absolutely necessary to do it over again, if the suspect is ALA. Wasn't the ALA handwriting analysis completely inconclusive?

Today's Examiner article points up how unreliable press reports are, even on facts that have been well known for years (e.g., the timing and content of the first Z letter.) Of all papers to get this one wrong . . .

In any event, Tom, good luck on this SFO trip: I hope this is the one you have been working for.

By Jake (Jake) (spider-mtc-tf042.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.103.37) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 03:36 pm:

Peter wrote:
"Wasn't the ALA handwriting analysis completely inconclusive?"

The experts consulted by SFPD determined that Allen's writing was similar to but "definitely not" the Zodiac's.

I'll be satisfied of Allen's culpability if the DNA is a match, and I'd like a fork for all the crow I'll be eating. On the same nonprofessional level, I'll take a side order of Told Ya So if it doesn't.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-mtc-ti032.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.101.162) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 07:32 pm:

Jake,
I would share that crow. A handwriting expert at the University where I work always extolls the "wonderous science of handwriting analysis", and has convinced me that if bono fide experts have ruled Allen out, then he is simply OUT. End of story. (Or else someone was doing the writing for him).

By Bucko (Bucko) (spider-mtc-te071.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.103.181) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 09:35 pm:

Well Jake and Sylvie, I'll get my fork ready too, just in case. There should be plenty of crow to go around if the DNA is Allen's. My two cents is that the DNA does not match Allen, nor any prime suspect in the case if further testing is done.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acb48897.ipt.aol.com - 172.180.136.151) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 10:26 pm:

Once and for all, Allen was ambidextrous. That means he could write with either hand.
If he was Zodiac, he probably wrote the letters with the hand that he didn't usually write with.
Unless you find a huge load of original handwriting samples from his "other" hand, there will never be a match.

By Jake (Jake) (spider-th011.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.213.46) on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 05:36 am:

SFPD took samples from both his hands. It's in the affadavit.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acb4fa90.ipt.aol.com - 172.180.250.144) on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 10:02 am:

Yes, I know that Jake.
You've seen those samples, and I would be very surprised if you didn't admit that the handwriting he provided SFPD was contrived.

By Jake (Jake) (spider-tj024.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.213.184) on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 02:32 pm:

If anything, it looks like the samples were contrived to appear more Z-like. Freehand samples (as in the letter once posted on this site) look less like Z's writing than the ones he provided to the cops. Interesting, huh?

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (ptlddslgw5poold162.ptld.uswest.net - 63.229.135.162) on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 02:54 pm:

The only potential Zodiac writing Allen's SFPD sample resembles, IMHO, is the confession envelope. At the time the Allen sample was obtained (1972), I'm not sure if the confession envelope had been published. (I know it wasn't in Riverside.)

By Jake (Jake) (spider-wo081.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.200.56) on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 04:26 pm:

I'm not saying it was a match or anything, but the samples look more like Z's writing than, say, the "Dear Billy" letter does.

--Jake

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (ptlddslgw5poold162.ptld.uswest.net - 63.229.135.162) on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 04:50 pm:

I just added a huge Allen-Zodiac handwriting comparison to The Arthur Leigh Allen File...

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (137.philadelphia01rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 12.90.16.137) on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 05:34 pm:

Tom, you would do well to leave unauthenticated Zodiac correspondences out of your handwriting comparisons. And you should include full blocks of handwriting, not just single words. That way we can see the qualities of spacing, alignment, punctuation, etc.

Over the years I've discovered literally dozens of people whose handprinting bears qualities strikingly similar to that of Zodiac. The trouble is that there are only so many ways to print Latin characters.

If I were the police, I wouldn't be excluding anyone on the basis of handprinting.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (ptlddslgw5poold162.ptld.uswest.net - 63.229.135.162) on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 05:44 pm:

Doug, I didn't include any "unauthenticated" letters.

By Jake (Jake) (spider-tr052.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.201.197) on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 07:31 pm:

Tom, I think you've seen the O'Hare comparisons, which are equally good in terms of drafting style and letter-by-letter similarity. Doug has an even better case with Kaczynski's writing. As with all the other circumstantial points linking these suspects with Z, they become less impressive with each additional suspect who shares them.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acb46347.ipt.aol.com - 172.180.99.71) on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 07:53 pm:

I never said "Case closed!"

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (194.philadelphia01rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 12.90.16.194) on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 09:40 pm:

Tom, I don't believe the "Badlands" letter is authenticated.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acb43006.ipt.aol.com - 172.180.48.6) on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 10:06 pm:

It was authenticated, but not by Morrill. He was out of the game for a couple of years.

By Bill Bratton (Willy) (65.12.128.183) on Sunday, May 20, 2001 - 12:05 am:

Is my computer working? A whole day without a single post? Can't let that happen. Guess everybody's in limbo waiting for DNA results. Jake, if you're worried about needing a fork, just imagine what Graysmith's new publisher must feel like right now. They bought a manuscript, which might be in printing now, and the book could be defunct before it's boxed to ship.

When that book does come out, I'm anticipating a big controversy over what "intellectual property" he's ripped off from the good people on this board vs. how much is his original work, not previously covered here.

By Bill Bratton (Willy) (65.12.128.183) on Sunday, May 20, 2001 - 01:13 am:

My how things look different after you push that "post" button. I'm very sensitive to political correctness since my recent faux pas. I'd like to say that the phrase "good people" in my previous post means EVERYONE who's participated. It doesn't mean any sub-set of people who I personally consider to be "good". That was not the idea, and it was not the feeling.

This board is an amazingly wonderful experiment in community discourse. I marvel at the magnitude of the information and the variety of contradictory, but well reasoned, opinions that it provides. You all know that I'm a new-comer here, but I've been reading along with you well before I decided to join you on-stage.

I've missed some facts through bleary eyed reading in the early mornings, embarrassed myself, wished I'd said more, and mostly...wished I'd said less...but I've retained the basic "feel" of the energy that's happening here. It's a good feeling. We all want the truth. This is a darn good medium to try to find it.

I mentioned the sheer volume of concourse here. I must say that I wonder what Tom goes through to allow us access to this forum. I don't know if he gets a monthly bill for the site, or if it's free with "x" number of hits. I don't know how that works. Can anybody expound on this?

If Tom's been paying my way, I'd like to know. And I sure hope that he's never in a monetary problem which might make him blow the record of this site away. I consider the totality of this site a shrine to the understanding of what the "website" phenomenon is capable of. This discourse must be documented for all time, regardless of the DNA results. This site is unique to all others, I believe. Anybody reading it can see why.

Boy, I gotta stop talking here. Just want to know, I'll say again, how do these websites work, and where does the money come from? (and you're all good people...each and every one)

By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-13.linkline.com - 64.30.217.13) on Sunday, May 20, 2001 - 01:39 am:

The Confession envelope was published on page one of the Enterprise in 1966.

By Bill Bratton (Willy) (65.12.128.183) on Sunday, May 20, 2001 - 03:17 am:

Well, that's wonderful...Howard's still mowing down the lawn....telling somebody what he's found. That's wonderful. I couldn't feel more insignificant. The timing is desirable. This website is "sumpin special". I love this stuff.

By Jake (Jake) (spider-th061.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.213.71) on Sunday, May 20, 2001 - 05:48 am:

Hey Bill, we've all misspoken, posted too soon, missed details, etc -- your Zodiac watch post was a great contribution. So don't worry about insignificance or newbie flubs.

Bill wrote:
"When [Graysmith's] book does come out, I'm anticipating a big controversy over what "intellectual property" he's ripped off from the good people on this board vs. how much is his original work, not previously covered here."

Seeing as we've all quoted, paraphrased, or plain old photocopied RG's work, I think any controversy would go both ways. Plagiarism is one thing, but the use of prior research ought to be acceptable.

--Jake
http://members.aol.com/Jakewark
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acb6360d.ipt.aol.com - 172.182.54.13) on Sunday, May 20, 2001 - 11:00 am:

Howard, what's the exact date of the confession story w/picture? I thought I had all of the 1966 articles.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (109.philadelphia01rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 12.90.16.109) on Sunday, May 20, 2001 - 12:49 pm:

I believe the date of the article was 12/1. See http://home.att.net/~mignarda/confess.pdf. I doubt very seriously whether the text of the letter was visible in the photo, but the newspaper included a transcription, which had certain "shocking" passages excised.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acb7ada9.ipt.aol.com - 172.183.173.169) on Sunday, May 20, 2001 - 01:03 pm:

I have that article, however I still can't locate a pre-1970s reproduction of the confession envelopes.

By the way, most of the crucial details of the murder were published in a 1968 issue of Inside Detective.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-93.linkline.com - 64.30.217.93) on Monday, May 21, 2001 - 01:13 am:

Bill:From the time I started posting on this Board I have not belittled anyone because of a mistaken reference or opinion; as I have always encouraged most of the posters I thought were contributing.

If I see something that seems erroneous I try to correct it without rancor. I will have fun too! I have been corrected in the past also, and it helps as to insight. I have been the first to bang on myself-and with good cause I might add!You did a great analysis, as I posted,on the lighting, etc. relative to the desk poem.

I have also, tried to get posters to forget they are Americans and be polite and professional, but that is a very difficult task!I too am excited about the Board and all the fine opinions-its great!I thank Tom for providing it as an open forum.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-93.linkline.com - 64.30.217.93) on Monday, May 21, 2001 - 02:27 am:

Tom:I believe Doug is right as to the 12/1/66 article. This is when the Confession letter was being sent to the crime lab and the Enterprise Confession envelope and typed letter was proped up on the desk and snapped by Bauman.I will get my copy today and check for sure.