Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Zodiac Media: Zodiac Interview
|By Jake (Jake) (spider-th043.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Saturday, May 26, 2001 - 05:14 pm:|
I've just posted a lengthy interview between Zodiac author Mike Kelleher and Zodiac
researcher Mike Rodelli over at my site, and it's a must-read for anyone chasing a
suspect. Regardless of whether he'd right or wrong, Rodelli's methods are sound, and
anyone chasing a suspect should give it a look.
It's posted in the "Mike Kelleher" section on the main page.
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (tcache-wn01.proxy.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Saturday, May 26, 2001 - 07:30 pm:|
Maybe I missed something, but it sure looked like Ed N. wasn't given credit or
mentioned by Rodelli...
Also, Rodelli claimed that, unlike with all of the other suspects, everything about his suspect fit Zodiac. I'd like to hear Rodelli explain why this rich businessman with no known deviant background would do such things.
|By Joe (Joe) (adsl-63-204-75-201.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net - 188.8.131.52) on Saturday, May 26, 2001 - 10:15 pm:|
Unless I'm missing something, Rodelli's suspect came to light through his perusing of previously published, typeset letters from the newspaper and he stumbled upon his suspect there. Looking for similarities in writing style could just have easily have led someone to suspect Ted K as Zodiac. As Rodelli seemingly admits: at first glance, there is nothing about his suspect's personality that fits Zodiac's profile. And although he's already shared his theory with the proper authorities, hinting at further proof without offering it for examination it is risky at best.
|By Jake (Jake) (spider-wi053.proxy.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Sunday, May 27, 2001 - 06:49 am:|
"And although he's already shared his theory with the proper authorities, hinting at further proof without offering it for examination it is risky at best."
I'm not going to speak for Mike, but I will say that posting that information for our examination would be the risky move. Mike has taken the smart route and provided it to various police departments.
Again, regardless of whether he's right or wrong, Mike used the best methods yet for determining a suspect through amateur research. Just about everyone else is either chasing their neighbor's gardener or beating a dead horse.
|By Joe (Joe) (adsl-63-204-72-202.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net - 220.127.116.11) on Sunday, May 27, 2001 - 09:42 am:|
I certainly understand that it would be foolish to provide his info outright. Good
case for slander and libel. His suspect does have the financial and legal means to bury
him. I was just balking at the fact that he has a convenient avenue for hiding his info
and therefore not being in a position to argue facts in an "interview" on your
BTW, my horse may be dead, but I never beat it.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p22.as1.dungarvan1.eircom.net - 18.104.22.168) on Sunday, May 27, 2001 - 12:12 pm:|
Would Rodelli's suspect not be a little old?.This would put Zodiac in his mid to late
forties at the time!
Incidentally,Jake,would it be correct to state that Kelleher/Rodelli are of the belief that while CJB was not a Zodiac victim,that the confession letter is his work?
|By Jake (Jake) (spider-mtc-ta034.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Sunday, May 27, 2001 - 01:03 pm:|
Joe, I try to dodge suspects on my site whenever possible; I don't want to get wrapped
up in proving or disproving links to the case and losing sight of the big picture, as
almost every other accuser has. The interview -- no quotation marks necessary, since it
was a dialogue in which information was obtained by a questioner from a source -- was not
about the suspect so much as Rodelli's methods and perceptions. I agree, though, that it's
frustrating not to be able to hash things out in the open.
Lapumo, the guy is really old. He's athletic and seems to be in good shape, though. Kelleher and Rodelli seem to be of a mind that Z did not kill Bates and did not write the Confession letter, but did write the "Bates had to die" notes, which of course do not reveal any details at all of the murder.
I'll point out that I'm not a spokesperson for either contributor. As the half-assed publisher, it's my responsibility to answer general questions on my site's content, but I'm going to let Mike field his own questions.
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (tcache-wc01.proxy.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Sunday, May 27, 2001 - 01:45 pm:|
The suspect would have been about 50 at the time of the Stine murder.
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (spider-ntc-tc053.proxy.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Monday, May 28, 2001 - 12:49 am:|
Since Tom mentioned it earlier, let me set the record straight: I was the one
who discovered the suspect, based on what Rodelli suggested I look for. The only
reason I was even asked to check it out was because I had immediate access to the proper
documentation; he later discovered that he could get it himself, and eventually would have
discovered the suspect without my help had he done so in the first place. I also dug up
valuable information that Rodelli almost certainly would never have found, by virtue of
the fact that he lives on the other side of the country, and I live here.
It was basically Rodelli's show anyway, and he did most (95%) of the research on the guy. The one thing that bothers me most about this suspect is that there is nothing in his background that even hints that he could be a violent, sociopathic serial killer like Z; there was only supposition on Rodelli's part, nothing more. This is not unlike Hunter; there's nothing to suggest that he could be Z either, nothing except a bunch of zynchronicities.
Where do I stand on the suspect I discovered? The zynchronicities look good on paper, but then, zynchronicities abound with many other suspects too. There might be good points for, but the biggest point against him is that, as far as I know, there is absolutely no reason to believe that this suspect could possibly be a sadistic, violent, sociopathic serial killer. I guess that's why I'm not even credited with discovering him in the first place...
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acb7b414.ipt.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Monday, May 28, 2001 - 01:05 am:|
See my latest thread, I am Zodiac, in Other Suspects.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-46.linkline.com - 220.127.116.11) on Monday, May 28, 2001 - 01:20 am:|
Jake:I have assiduously studied the Zodiac case with a suspect/s since 1987, and I say
it is an unfair statement to say that if one is an "accuser" as you call it and
has a suspect that he or she has lost sight of the "big picture"!No one could
say Dave Peterson(since 12/20/68) did not have a full awareness of the Z case even though
we had the same suspect/s!
As a professional researcher for over 42 years ,I take great exception to your erroneous statement.I have no idea where you come up with some of the statements you do -it's mystifying to say the least.ALL detectives develop suspects as has been done since the profession evolved.And besides, if they just sat around and looked at that "big picture" no one would go to jail!No -suspects are a plus not a minus -as our packed prisons can testify!
Suspects are developed and if someone is perceptive then they are perfectly capable of working a case without losing site of the overall crime.
I keep very careful tabs on not just the" big picture" but of the "little picture" as well!No case no suspect-no suspect no case.
I don't think anyone would say Tom does not have the big picture just because he is high on Allen-no the thousands of hours-and dollars ,prove otherwise. I have spoken to Tom at great length about the Zodiac case and he not only has the whole deal down ,but the little details ,with perspective!
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (175.philadelphia01rh.16.pa.dial-access.att.net - 18.104.22.168) on Monday, May 28, 2001 - 07:30 am:|
Howard, that's a good point, and a good answer to those who think that only
"objective" researchers (in this case, read that to mean "those whose
primary suspect is Arthur Leigh Allen") can properly speak to the case.
But without subjective analysis, no one would ever come under suspicion, as you observe, and there would be no convictions.
I'm inclined to think that subjectively coming under suspicion is the one thing the criminal perpetrator fears the most. Once attention and suspicion have been focused in his direction it becomes a mere matter of investigative work to uncover the evidence that may lead to a conviction. Until then, the perpetrator basks in the anonymity of being a single grain of sand amongst hundreds of millions.
|By Jake (Jake) (spider-tr022.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Monday, May 28, 2001 - 08:10 am:|
Howard, there is a big and obvious difference between a legitimate detective's
invesigation and an amateur hobbyist's. To wit, I'll point out that, of the 11 victims
listed on your site, only two (Kathleen Johns and Cheri Bates) were ever considered Zodiac
victims. The others,
Santa Barbara Couple
San Diego Honeymoon Murders
Barbara Couple Murders, and
have never been investigated by authorities as Zodiac victims. The only reason I can think of for their being listed is to establish a link to your suspect. This is what I call losing sight of the big picture, and this is what "mystifies" me. Donna Lass and the Santa Barabara murders have been noted in the past. Who are these others, and what link do they have to the Zodiac case?
Now, you may call my statements erroneous, but I'll call your aforementioned categorization the same. Call it opinion, or call it a conviction based on years of research. I know that you, Tom, Doug, Jon Zychowski, et al have done a tremendous amount of research, much of which has been valuable, but I don't have to swallow every ounce of speculation you promote.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p31.as1.dungarvan1.eircom.net - 126.96.36.199) on Monday, May 28, 2001 - 02:27 pm:|
I am fascinated at the prospect of hearing Rodelli's account of how he sees hints to
his suspects identity in the Zodiac letters,being convinced that Zodiac did leave his
identity there.It does make me wonder why those of you who are more familiar with the
case(with the exception
of a line from Tom)have not hammered the age issue.I would agree that Zodiac has to have a record somewhere for lesser offences...something.
I do not know though if I would dismiss his suspect so easily becuse nothing has yet been found.How many times have the identity of serial killers shocked those who knew them?It also appears this suspect comes from a privileged backround..you know the rest.
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (spider-ntc-tc082.proxy.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 01:21 am:|
I finally read the interview, and I was "credited" after all: I am referred
to as the "former associate" who, along with Rodelli, was shown the actual LB
attack site by Ken Narlow in October 1999. I'm surprised that he's so optimistic that
anyone will actually question the SF businessman, given the man's wealth and influence;
SFPD's had ample time, and they haven't done it yet. If he is Z, then I don't believe
there will be a resolution to the case until such time he dies. Even then, I'm sure he's
smart enough to have destroyed the evidence anyway, so nothing will be proven then either.
We shall see what happens. Don't anyone hold your breath, though...
|By Jake (Jake) (spider-tj013.proxy.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 02:35 pm:|
"If he is Z, then I don't believe there will be a resolution to the case until such time he dies. Even then, I'm sure he's smart enough to have destroyed the evidence anyway, so nothing will be proven then either."
I'm sure the guy has licked a few stamps in his time.
There's a lot more to Rodelli's suspect than was related in the interview or the Chronicle article, and frankly, some of it stretches the notion of coincidence. This isn't to say that I'm throwing in with Mike -- far from it: I'm holding out for Mr. X -- but I really wish he'd come on board and hash it out. Of course, the twin factors of legal liability and the knee-jerk reaction he's gotten so far will probably rule it out in the near future.
A final retraction: in the cut-and-pasting of my previous post, I neglected to remove the Santa Barbara couple from my list of Howard's Zodiac suspects; they were, indeed, investigated as Zodiac victims (though never with the zeal of the Bay Area five).
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (spider-ntc-tb054.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 04:31 pm:|
Jake: I have the original report, so I have a pretty good idea what the guy's about.
And quite right, there are so many zynchronicities about him that one really has to
wonder. On the other hand, there are a lot around the other suspects as well, and only one
(or none) can be Z (unless one accepts the multi-Z theory).
In the end, zynchronicities are just that: zynchronicities, and they prove nothing, just raise suspicion, and certainly do warrant investigation by the authorities. If this guy was discovered 25 years ago instead of 2, they'd be banging on his door by now. But, as Bruton said, the only thing that would get him out of his chair was fingerprints, handwriting, or DNA. Zynchronicities don't seem to cut it, as demonstrated by SFPD's and NSD's apparent lack of interest in him. Or maybe they're just scared of his clout.
|By Jake (Jake) (spider-wg023.proxy.aol.com - 18.104.22.168) on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 05:00 pm:|
"On the other hand, there are a lot around the other suspects as well, and only one (or none) can be Z ..."
You said it: the best argument against a circumstantial case is that one can be built so easily against so many suspects. Make mine "none!"
|By Socal (Socal) (66-74-213-87.san.rr.com - 22.214.171.124) on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 06:30 pm:|
In the early 70's Toschi said the age of the Zodiac and the height and weight of the Zodiac could vary quite of bit.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-42.linkline.com - 126.96.36.199) on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 01:49 am:|
Jake:Howdy! I reread my post and I affirm it to a T.Now, lets look at Nikki Benedict
one of the victims (5/1/67)I have on my list.
The Riverside Notes were post marked 4/30/67 and they state : "Bates Had To Die There Will Be More"[victims].Now just about a day or so later Nikki Benedict is knifed (knife is same size as Bates knife)to death in a swale(water element) in Poway (Lampumo please comment on the name Poway)a city that is not that far removed from Riverside.
I contacted a detective that has the case and he informed me of one of the secret facts in the case and that is they suspected back in the 60s/70s Zodiac as the possible perp! The reason being is that Nikki's girlfriend stated that a man seen driving by them twice the day of the murder had crew cut dark brown hair and wore black horn rimmed glasses.
Now ,this was before a composite of Zodiac existed as he had not yet killed in S.F.!When the composite came out the officers could see the similarity between the Zodiac and that man Nikki's friend saw in '67.I list some of the parallels between this case and Zodiac's M O, etc., on my site-www.zodiacmurders.com.
The point is ,that because I suspected a possible link between this '87 and the Bates case-taking to heart Z's threat "There Will Be More"-and a day later blond hair, blue eyed athletic(like Bates) Nikki Benedict is stabbed to death 'close' to Riverside and the possible perp looks like the Z composite then I think that it would be the height of stupidity not to check it out carefully.
Z did say "there are a hell of a lot more[victims besides Cheri] down there"[So. CA]!
What if there is DNA?What if there was a match with the Riverside DNA?What if someone knew the perp was in the area at the time? On it goes. One must have faith that it is possible and that this may be the link to Zodiac. They found shoe prints of the killer and things are always held back too.
I have many reasons for selecting the victims and my suspect had nothing to do with it.
My primary objective was to investigate which victims Zodiac could have been referring to when he said "down there".
I carefully selected Tashman, Graham, Gaul/Sharp,etc.It wasn't until we talked to the retired detective who worked this case that we found the Zodiac Killer letter in his murder book-a total surprise!
Comparing the Tashman and Graham case to Johns abduction by deception; I think I made a decent selection.If any evidence can be found and it connects to the other evidence in the case then tighter bonds are formed. This is done in investigations worldwide- so loosen up Jake-it's HOW case work is done !
Tan was an interesting selection and could be a Zodiac deal.
It can be that one link or piece of evidence that cracks a case. Hey, check out New Detectives!
I will say it again without fear of contradiction-no suspect no case-no case no suspect- no solution.The quickest way to get fired from a detectives position is to reject the tenets of my little slogan!
Of course, you don't have to accept our 'suspect mania 'as you would refer to it as such, but neither do we have to receive your blatant anti suspect stance-I know no real detective would!
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p82.as2.dungarvan1.eircom.net - 188.8.131.52) on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 01:03 pm:|
Poway (Pau-wi)apparently comes from the language of Diegueno and Luiseno Indians who lived there.While there is some disagreement over the name,traditionally it is held to mean"the meeting little valleys" or"end of the valley".
|By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-wi072.proxy.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 02:23 pm:|
I agree with much of your post, and definitly the Benedict murder should be investigated in connection with Bates murder, the only thing I take exception with is-- in all your posts referring to this, you make it sound as if Poway is right next door to Riverside, when in fact it is quite a drive.
|By Jake (Jake) (spider-mtc-th034.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 02:31 pm:|
Howard, I make have spoken too sharply, and you're right: my opinions, like all the
others posted here, should be read in the context of my armchair status. Moreover, it's
only by taking chances and following up on leads that any investigation comes to fruition,
and I admire the proactive steps that you and so many others have taken.
Nonetheless, since no "real detective" in the investigation believes that Bates was a Zodiac victim, the link to the Benedict murder is almost irrelevant. Ditto for all the other victims you mentioned, including Doreen Gaul, the evidence including whom as a victim amounts to a letter monumentally dissimilar to any written by the Zodiac except for a misspelling of the adverb "too." I read a bit about the Pat Tan murder, and recall only that it, too, seemed entirely unrelated to the Z events. If there's something I missed, feel free to take me to school.
My main point is that, in making links to a suspect, theorists often end up obfuscating the case. It's how we end up with news stories that begin "The Zodiac killer, who police believe is responsible for up to 47 murders..."
|By Jake (Jake) (spider-mtc-th061.proxy.aol.com - 18.104.22.168) on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 03:36 pm:|
"...I may have spoken too sharply..."
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-75.linkline.com - 22.214.171.124) on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 01:48 am:|
Sylvie: I think that since Zodiac drove down to So. CA he could sit back and take a
drive to Poway-it's the car that does the real work!I placed the 's around
"close" as one can see.
How do we know where Z lived at this time?
Why do we assume he had to take 'quite a drive' to Poway-might he have lived in that area instead of staying in an area (Riverside)where the heat was turned on full throttle? I do not think this is likely. Good comment though!
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-75.linkline.com - 126.96.36.199) on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 02:19 am:|
Lampumo: I was expecting you to draw from your heritage and intimacy of geography in
your part of the world!
Powys:County in cen WALES-oh,that Welsh connection again!I can't find where I saw one spelling as Poway. It really doesn't matter considering Z's penchant for sing song/symbolism, etc.Close enough!
Of interest is the secret fact that the killer/s of Gaul/Sharp (11/21/69 )left an ad for Cambria next to Gauls' body which had blue threads from a blanket on it.
Also,a foxtail not indigenous to that area,-and this also perplexed the police ,as they thought it was some kind of 'message'-was placed right under her body.
Foxtail Flats is on modern maps- of which I have a copy -in LB!It was known to the old timers in the 60's and hippies and others used to hang out there and was finally named at a later date on maps -it's within the general area where Z struck FYI).
Back to Cambria.What do you have on that? Draw from your background and area me man.
All of the above and that typed ,all in caps,"Zodiac Killer" note!
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-75.linkline.com - 188.8.131.52) on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 02:30 am:|
Jake: Thanx. I will give ya some time to rethink your statement concerning that
"Zodiac Killer" note left in Gauls' room.
You state that the only similarity between Z's letter in Riverside (and other missives) and the Gaul"Z"(as this very rare symbol used by Zodiac was placed at the end of the note) letter was the misspelling of the adverb "too".
I gave you one hint, but we will see just how many similarities there are beyond that adverb! I will be back with you- I have always been here!
|By Socal (Socal) (66-74-213-87.san.rr.com - 184.108.40.206) on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 06:18 am:|
I thought in the 60's and early 70's investigators thought it possible that the Zodiac lived in Southern Calif. and drove to SF to do his deed? Was this something I imagined.
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (spider-ntc-td071.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 09:32 am:|
It's within the realm of possibility. It takes approximately 6 hours to drive from LA to the Bay Area. I've done that trip many a time and my best time ever was 4 hours and 50 minutes. I've even driven to LA and back on the same day (makes for a very long day!), so it definitely can be done. However, I personally think that Z was from Vallejo or somewhere nearby, and that he didn't have to drive 400 miles to commit his crimes.
|By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 18.104.22.168) on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 09:42 am:|
Please correct me if I am wrong, I was told some time back when a small plastic fox was put in my back yard,that "fox" in Spanish was the word Zorro. As most of us know, Zorro used the sign Z. Could the fox tail also stand for the same thing? I would like to find out who the man was that went with Darlene and Jim,to NY. He went by the name Honcho, that has a Hispanic ring to me.He could be the man from Mexico who was giving Darlene those presents. I think finding him, will point us in the right direction to finding the Z.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p96.as2.dungarvan1.eircom.net - 22.214.171.124) on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 01:31 pm:|
Poway is as described above.
Powys is a county in Mid-Wales.
To the west of Powys are the Cambrian Mountains.
Cumbria (U) is in the English Lake District.
Cambria is a county in Pennsylvania.
Cambria is also a small seaside town half way between San Fran and LA.
E pluribis unum.
|By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-mtc-tj031.proxy.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 03:52 pm:|
This should probably be in the "other victims" thread but since we are
speaking of many other possible victims, I'll bring it up here.
Ed and Howard: Your knowledge of 87 victims is truly impressive, -- Would you happen to know of a case that I remember hearing of long, long ago. It is a S.F. coed, I believe the year was 1964. I believe the young victim's name was Judy, she was a college student at--I want to say Berkeley--and she was on her way to the bus after mailing some letters, she never made it to the bus. After some time I think her body was discovered in an abandoned car in Santa Cruz (S.C. again!) and her belongings found in a nearby trash can. I recall there was a suspect in custody, but there was alot of talk that they had the wrong man, Please tell me if you know from what I speak. Possible Z victim???
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (acb4b6ad.ipt.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 05:25 pm:|
How about e-mail them with such questions?
|By Jake (Jake) (spider-mtc-th053.proxy.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 06:51 pm:|
Howard -- for the benefit of our readers, Pat Tan was a young traveler found dead in
mid-April 1970 near the Trailside Killer's turf on Mt. Tamalpais. She had been asphixiated
by a rope and an extension cord tied to a tree branch on a steep hill. The cops weren't
even sure if she had been murdered, and the only evidence that she hadn't simply tied off
and thrown herself down the hill was the relative complexity of the knots used. Aside from
speculation that the Zodiac was a sailor (hence the knots) and the "By rope"
reference in the Halloween Card, what exactly leads you to believe this might have been
The Gaul letter reads like something out of a Columbine High diary -- "SO YOU THINK YOU CAN FOOL THE OLD KILLER HA HA I KNOW ALL YOUR MOVEMENTS AND THE TIME THEY ARE MADE..." There is a "Z" typed near the closing, but the letter is signed "THE ZODIAC KILLER," which is what the newspapers called our guy. As we all know, the true Zodiac referred to himself simply and uniformly as "The Zodiac," and used his moniker at the beginning, not the end, of his missives. The strange symbols doodled on the Gaul letter look kind of like deflated balloons falling to earth in neat rows, and do not resemble anything out of any of the cryptograms. The one possible link to Z is the phrase "TIME IS SHORT," which is similar to something uttered by Z at Lake Berryessa; here, it is followed by the advice "ENJOY LIFE WHILE YOU CAN."
So, what am I missing?
|By Roger Redding (Roger_Redding) (user-33qs1o1.dialup.mindspring.com - 220.127.116.11) on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 08:25 pm:|
Cambria was the old Roman name for Wales (hence the Cambrian mountains). Howardus
Davius knows this because he was Julius Caesar's cartographer.
The Gaul murder sounds like a Zodiac copycat to me. Perhaps Peter can study it for his instruction.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-63.linkline.com - 18.104.22.168) on Friday, June 01, 2001 - 02:06 am:|
Roger:Pass!Funnie!The Welsh connection and of course,England is involved.Meld with
Lampumo's info and it is all very interesting.I guess someone will link Gaul to Celts and
back we go to Wales/England, etc.!
You are right about the Gaul'87 being a Z "copycat" as there are features- in detail-that are contained within the crime that someone went through a lot of trouble to create!
My PD Report delineates this despicable murder in detail and I will share just certain elements.
What is interesting is that Bruce Davis lived at the same Manor as Gaul and they were seeing each other until she dated a black man for a time and this- according to a secret report- enraged Davis.
In past posts-and my book- I bring out some of the similarities between the Bates case and LB as I believe it is a hybrid.Zodiac said "there are a hell of a lot more[murder victims]down there[So. CA]...and he said he would "change the WAY" he operated, etc.
I am getting to bed early tonight as I am changing the way I am operating too ,so I will discuss this soon ;and I will discuss the typed letter in detail. Hail Caesar!
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-63.linkline.com - 22.214.171.124) on Friday, June 01, 2001 - 02:29 am:|
Ed: There were, say, PSA flights from LA to OAK or S.F.airport early AM to late PM and
it cost $11.50 one way. Total time 55 minutes.I checked.
The pasteup sent to the Sac Bee newspaper (12/10/69) by Zodiac said "Birds fly South"...FLT 555."A reporter checked and found that a United flight left for San Diego from S.F. at 7:30 PM every night-flight 555!This number is an occult # and Aleister Crowley the evil occultist used it in his writings.You will find a picture of Crowley on the front of the Beatles the Sgt Pepper album.M claims he is the reincarnation of Crowley who called himself the Beast 666.
I think flight was a possibility at times. As far as my guy goes he was seen in Berkeley 12/68 and he frequented the Haight, etc.so he got there using some means of transportation. He even travelled long distances on a motorcycle.
Certain in the Family -including Manson, would go to S.F. constantly and crash at friends in Berkeley and Frisco, etc. M even stayed in Sacramento in an apt. Ask Esau.M and others were there 12/68 and left the latter part of December.
Your trip of 4 hours 55 minutes is incredable!
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (spider-tn024.proxy.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Friday, June 01, 2001 - 10:17 am:|
Howard: considering driving to the airport, getting there with time to spare, flight
time, possible delays, collecting luggage (beyond carry on), either renting a car or
getting a ride with a friend, then driving to your destination, it actually takes just a
little longer to drive to LA from the Bay Area than it does to fly, and these days is
cheaper too! With gas at 25¢ a gallon (or thereabouts) back in the day, it was probably
cheaper then too (and much less of a hassle). I tried flying once or twice, but it's
easier to drive, although it takes maybe an hour or so longer. So, while it's definitely
possible to fly, driving works out better (I've been driving between northern and southern
California for almost 13 years now, and it is much better).
BTW, my brother once did 4 hours and 30 minutes...
|By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 188.8.131.52) on Friday, June 01, 2001 - 06:52 pm:|
Howard, Did you ever give a copy of the Gaul letter to Pam H? If so was it before 90? I asked you ,because I read more than one letter sent to her, from someone calling himself the Zodiac. The Verbiage was almost verbatim! Even the part: you can't fool this old killer, Ha Ha Ha. And your time is short. You are too beautiful to live much longer. The last one I read of hers, was typed. In two of the places, instead of using white out, it was crossed out with a felt tip pen. A (L) was drawn in its place, I don't remember what other letter was used. I do remember it was a blue felt pen.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-149.linkline.com - 184.108.40.206) on Saturday, June 02, 2001 - 12:09 am:|
Sandy:No I never had the Gaul letter when I interviewed Pam. I have no idea where she got her copy.Someone made a copy and sent it to her as a joke of sorts is all I can come up with.There is an L just above the third line of the note.See my site and the letter there www.zodiacmurders.com.
|By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 220.127.116.11) on Saturday, June 02, 2001 - 02:30 pm:|
Howard I read the letters on your site, WOW! The one that Pam had, was a longer letter and some of the words were crossed out. The L was over one of the crossed out words. Her's didn't have the odd drawings of what ever that was. He implied he was going to kill her but didn't write, I am going to kill you. He didn't sign it Zodiac, only the Z logo was at the bottom of the letter. It wasn't a copy, but it had a lot of the same words. His note to me was on very small paper 2 3/4in by 5. Tom ,Ed , and Jake have copys of it maybe one of them can post it. I like your site a lot, good work.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-33.linkline.com - 18.104.22.168) on Monday, June 04, 2001 - 01:08 am:|
Jake:Howdy. I have posted a lot of info on Tan already-just a click away for those
that may be interested.One addition that I will add( until later-I gave the 'secret stuff'
on the Elaine Davis deal 12/1/69 as I felt it was a botch job and the facts needed to come
out)-there were "leaves in her hair" and this lead some investigators to believe
she was hanged by someone. The way she was found ,etc.indicated she could only have
acquired those intertwined leaves if she were on the ground first and then the 'skillfully
tied knots' were formed on the hang 'rope'around her neck and then she was suspended. I
will just say it this way for now. She WAS hanged and not by her own hand!
I believe she could have been a Zodiac victim for the reasons I stated on my posts and site- and for other reasons.
Now,to one of my fav'deals- the 11/?/69 "Zodiac Killer "letter or note.The missive first(the murder in another post)and the rest can be seen on old posts.
1.)The'69 Gaul letter was a copy and like the '66 letter did not have a postmark or stamp! This surprised me as the detective that was on the case in '69 told me that it wasn't the original-'the writer did not want the typewriter traced' in his estimation!This was just like the '66 Confession letter.
2.) The '69 Gaul letter was given in Nov. as was the '66 Confession letter-note: reverse the 9 in '69 and you have '66 FWI.
3.)Both letters are all in caps.
4.)There is an identical error with adverbs ,as both letters use to instead of too, use them correctly in another place/s.There is a typo when the '69 letter uses an L instead of an I.There is an L just to the left of TIME on the third line. TIME is used instead of the plural(a Z trait) and there isn't a period -and other proper punctuation , etc.- just like in Zodiac missives and then including or excluding (as here)them in other places-his "right and wrong "habit. See '69 Gaul letter and Z communictions.
5.)He says he 'knows her movements and the times they are made in the '69 G note.' This is like the '66 Confession when it says that he is observing("stalking") a blond that walks down a dark alley "each evening about seven." This shows he knows her "movements" -and the "times" they are made!Note the '66 C writer says "each evening".
6.)Twice the C writer says a female was "beautiful", once in reference to Bates' death and once to describe a young girl. Our'69 Gaul writer says of her "You are to(sic) beautiful to (to-right/wrong)live and I must kill you."This is also like the '67 notes "She/Bates had to die."
7.)"So you think you can fool the old killer,"says the '69 note. This is like Zodiac when he said "it could be rather messy if you try to bluff me" and several like statements that indicated that they should not try and fool him.
8.)The note is signed "Zodiac Killer" which seems to bother you. Did not Zodiac say he was "the killer "of the 68/69 victims in the letter to the Vallejo Times Herald and the S.F. Examiner 7/31/69?Check to see if I got those 2 right. It was in the Chronicle he calls himself "the murderer"7/31/69.So he calls himself the "Zodiac"in the Gaul letter- but adds as he did in '69 -"killer"-about par for him.
8.) Both letters are not dated.
In some of his letters he calls himself "A citizen","Red Phantom ","yours truley","A friend",and some are not 'signed 'at all!Some missives are signed with his cross /circle, RP, and the extremely rare post '67 use of the Z as was the '67 notes(all 3 as per Esau's discovery). The Gaul letter has a "Z"!
This writer, in my view, had a very intimate knowledge of the '66 C letter and '67 notes(it wasn't until 11/70 that articles in various papers surfaced that delineated these details-like the use of the Z, etc.)and other Zodiac letters.
Lets remember we don't have that much to analyze here as the '69 Gaul letter is so short(like some other Z letters!), but even so it still has some similarities to other Z communications.I had better stop as this post is way too or to (!) large. I will post again.