ABC to feature the Zodiac case Thursday, Oct. 17 Message Board: Zodiac Media: ABC to feature the Zodiac case Thursday, Oct. 17

By Tom Voigt (Admin) ( - on Monday, October 14, 2002 - 03:38 pm:

ABC's Primetime Thursday will feature the Zodiac case this Thursday, Oct. 17.

By steve merritt (Cashflagg) ( - on Monday, October 14, 2002 - 03:40 pm:

It's about time. Jeez, I thought it would never happen! Tom; do you have any inside info? Did they contact you?

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) ( - on Monday, October 14, 2002 - 05:30 pm:

I believe the show will be called "The Hunt For Zodiac" and will be an hour in length. (Tonight's Monday Night Football telecast should include a few plugs for the show.)

An ABC crew was at the July task-force meeting, so there's a good chance some footage of the event might be included in the show.

By Ed N. (Ed_N) ( - on Tuesday, October 15, 2002 - 02:25 am:

Let's hope it doesn't turn out to be The Grunt for the Zodiac Killer.

By Peter H (Peter_H) ( - on Tuesday, October 15, 2002 - 11:52 am:

Has anyone heard any publicity for this? I didn't catch any on MNF, and there is absolutley zip at the ABC News Primetime Thursday web site.

By William Baker (Bill_Baker) ( - on Tuesday, October 15, 2002 - 12:22 pm:

I caught a single ad during MNF, confirming the program, starting at 10:00 PM (PDT).

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) ( - on Tuesday, October 15, 2002 - 12:55 pm:

20/20 will probably plug the hell out of it during their special sniper episode.

By Gregusjay (Gregusjay) ( - on Tuesday, October 15, 2002 - 07:30 pm:

I've seen one or two really brief (5 seconds?)ads one on Monday Night Football and one on Sunday.
I've been away for a week in Los Angeles..I apologize if anyone has asked me anything here and there's been no response. I am glad to be back, I would have probably missed it if I were still in LA. I didn't hear anything about the Z special down there. (of course I was funnin' and sunnin' quite a bit)
Saw the Wayne Brady show in person
the 10/7 broadcast...I was the one who yelled out that Matthew Fox should order chocolate chip ice cream that day. my 3 seconds of fame! lol

By Ryan Olesin (Ryan) ( - on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 10:35 am:

I'll be busy and I have some VCR issues. Is someone going to tape it? I wouldn't mind getting a copy if I am unable to tape it myself.

By Kendra (Kendra) ( - on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 07:13 pm:

Thanks to Chalandra, who pointed out to me and others, Primetime Thursday's website has been updated, depicting Z. Check it out! 021017.html

I hope that link works...Thank you, Chalandra!

By Kendra (Kendra) ( - on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 07:16 pm:

The article on Primetime Thursday's site answers our question about Foukes. Apparently, he is still alive and will be appearing on the show tonight.

By Ryan Olesin (Ryan) ( - on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 08:19 pm:

On that website, they have some great colour scans of the letters, even the cards. However it has the ABC logo on it.

By obiwan (Obiwan) ( - on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 08:22 pm:

New Evidince provides Zodiac-Television Link.

SAN FRANCISCO--A careful new reexamination of Zodiac Letters, using techniques not previously available, has indicated that Zodiac not only watched TV shows, such as Batman, but must have worked in the TV industry. It has now been revealed that all of his letters were written on ABC company stationary.



By Chris Bohn (Chris) ( - on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 08:39 pm:

I'm impressed so far. But that reporter is so melo dramatic its sickening. I would also like to say that its good to be back and that Ive always taken Toms site loading quickly for granted. Alot of traffic this evening friend?

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 08:40 pm:

They look a lot more colorful than what we've been used to, eh? Well, I'm still one-up on most of you: I've actually touched a couple of them. That aside, I thought this presentation was the best I've yet seen. I was disappointed that in the fleeting shot of the DNA types, none of the alleles Kaczynski was tested for appeared to have been analyzed in this case. But in the event anyone connected with the DNA analysis reads this message board, here's what the relevant FBI document ( gives:

DQA1--1.1, 2

By Peter H (Peter_H) ( - on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 08:47 pm:

Early returns from the Right Coast Precincts

Foukes is alive and fairly well. Still apparently has not been asked about the composite.

Typical unsupported outrageous claims by Graymatter: ALA wore Wingwalkers and was placed at every scene Cheney police report predates killings yadayadayada

Real story is the DNA. While the presentation was a little jumbled,it appears to this observer that samples were taken from the Dripping Pen Card envelope and the Vallejo Times and Chronicle Cipher envelopes. Stamps and flaps. ANd a hair under one stamp. No match to ALA or anyone else. That should answer pending queries on the board for multiple samples. Three separate envelopes with same DNA sent at two different times and no match. COuld ALA get someone to lick the stamps and flaps twice? Someone with the same color hair as the PH description.

Anyone still an ALA advocate now has to put a conspiracy twist up against Occam's razor. Two people can keep a secret if one is dead.

Other questions: Apparent Scoop: Who the hel is Bill Collins and his suspect dad the Late Charles C Collins? Anyone ever have any contact with Bill?

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 08:56 pm:

The hair under the stamp was very interesting. I wonder if it's been compared to the hairs discovered under poor Cheri Bates's fingernails?

The hair appears to be distinctly reddish-blonde, which jibes with at least one eyewitness account. I wonder if any other suspects have reddish-blonde hair anywhere on their bodies?

By Chris Bohn (Chris) ( - on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 09:02 pm:

I would like to retract my former statement. Definitely NOT IMPRESSED. Partial.Partial.Partial. This was in my opinion not an objective investigation. I think they were out to clear Allen and threw those other two in as token suspects. I can't beleive all this spin and no new leads or suspects? the moment of truth never came. I'm not sure what I expected.

By Valentine Smith (Valentinesmith) ( - on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 09:24 pm:

It was a helluva show, I'll give it that. But why do I remain unconvinced about ALA being...well...NOT our guy? I mean, of course they show signs pointing otherwise but...this is really odd. I mean, I've never been a particularly vocal supporter of any one camp, but I have a tendency to lean towards ALA.

Maybe I really DO need to start investigating the 2 man theory more? I've always dismissed it, but...

Do any of our major suspects know each other? Am I entirely too lamebrained for words right now???

By Alan Cabal (Alan_Cabal) ( - on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 11:13 pm:

Ask yourself: why now? Why this show, now, after all these years? Cui bono? At this very critical moment in history, they dredge up a fairly trivial 30 year-old case.

Watch me pull a rabbit out of a hat. Notice that at no time do my hands leave the ends of my arms. Halliburton, Unocal, Wackenhut, THE CARLYLE GROUP, oh boy...

By Joshua (Joshua) ( - on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 11:14 pm:

Hi all.... hmmmm... maybe we should give another look as to the theory that Z might just be Kane or Kane worked with ALA together. Just an educated thought ! I hate to sound a bit off beat, but I took some tough ribbing in here about that theory, but I think finally we should start looking in the right direction... I hope this gets posted... please Tom... post this. I have been talking to police and LVPD about similiar murders in LV during the mid 70's that fit the same description, and they had me contact the SF FBI. Sandy please write me with the info as I need to ask you something. Thanks again. Josh

By Joshua (Joshua) ( - on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 11:18 pm:

P.S. did any of you catch the verbage that Z used when he called into the TV show? The voice was NOT ALA....Z said.. Can't control his headaches... and he has to kill... remember Kane's diagnosis from his car accident?...Massive trauma to the brain... losing the ability to control self gratification. Sounds like a good fit. Thanks again... please post this. Josh

By Chrissy Shaw (Chrissy_Shaw) ( - on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 11:19 pm:

My training says, direct evidence over-rides circumstancial. It sure would have been much easier if all things pointed to ALA. During the long and cold nights here in the Puget Sound winters I would drive up Pacific Highway South and attempt to will the surroundings to reveal the silent secret. The secrets were not there on the highway though. He was caught and he did not know it.

I hope that the partial DNA from SFPD will be the magic that it was up here.

ABC did a nice show. By-the-way, a fine group you are. Thanks Tom.

By Clark Kent (Clark) ( - on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 11:38 pm:

Joshua: If I could figure out what information Harvey Hines used to pick Kane as a suspect, I'd start looking at him as a suspect. I've read his report, and his reasoning seems very suspect to me. I would like to see some other suspects investigated as thoroughly as Allen was.
Also, the guy who called the Jim Dunbar show was a mental patient from Napa State Hospital (named in Paul Avery's 1971 report). It was determined that he couldn't be the Zodiac. I agree that it was quite cool to see this clip and hear that voice, though. Sandy (hi Sandy!) has a chilling audiotape of a Maryland killer's telephone call; his dry, even-toned manner of speaking must've been very similar to Zodiac's.

By Oddball (Oddball) ( - on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 11:57 pm:

The hair was very interesting indeed--it could be someone else's, of course, but I'd like to think that it belonged to Z. I do think they fumbled by not asking Foukes about the man he saw the night of the Stine killing; maybe they just assumed the audience wouldn't be interested in that detail.

By John Prisk (Prisk29) ( - on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 11:59 pm:

The male reporter refered to Betty Lou Jensen as "Mary Lou Jensen". Kinda sad a "year long investigation" results in the botching of a victims name two minutes into the program...

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) ( - on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 01:58 am:

"The hair appears to be distinctly reddish-blonde, which jibes with at least one eyewitness account. I wonder if any other suspects have reddish-blonde hair anywhere on their bodies?"

Well, Allen had hair that color. Oops...

By Ed N. (Ed_N) ( - on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 02:17 am:

The good news is that "Citizen Q," the SFBM, has been eliminated as a suspect. He is, of course, the suspect that I discovered, not Rodelli, despite the claims made on the show; at least he got his two minutes of fame, for whatever it's worth to future historians. The thing that gets me is that they all but gave away his identity by mentioning where the letter can be found, and where he lives. How many others are going to be able to duplicate my research now and discover his name??? Oh, well, such is life...

The other thing is that he readily volunteered a sample of his DNA to be compared to Z's, and it did not match. One would think that if he were Z, he'd drag it out and eventually tell SFPD they needed a warrant or something to get a sample. His actions are that of an innocent man trying to clear his name, not that of a guilty man toying with the police.

The good news is that Foukes is alive, and he gave us yet a fourth location as to where he and Zelms spotted the man who may have been Z (Graysmith gave us the other three, of course): it was on the north side of Jackson, between Maple and Spruce, and he turned into a residence and walked up a flight of stairs. He also said that he regretted not stopping and speaking to the man they saw, which therefore puts that one myth to rest: despite what Z wrote, Foukes and Zelms did not speak with Z that night! Another documented lie by Z.

One thing that struck me about the hair that was discovered under the stamp: might it be facial hair, perhaps from a beard or moustache?

We at least got to see a few posters from the Taskforce meeting: Clark Kent, Victoria, Sandy, and myself (quite surprised me!). I also liked the fact that they visited the actual crime scenes and got the location of Zodiac Island correct (no thanks to Graysmith)!

One thing that needs to be done, however, which I mentioned elsewhere, is that Ted Kaczynski's and Bruce Davis' DNA should be compared to Z's. Since they're incarcerated, it should be relatively easy to obtain (I believe Douglas mentioned that TK's is a matter of public record now). Of course, I'd prefer to compare all the major suspects, but it's a matter of whether they're cooperative or not. Perhaps they should take "Citizen Q's" cue and volunteer if they have nothing to hide.

By Joshua (Joshua) ( - on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 02:40 am:

Tom, I do have to tip my hat to you! Whether or not the police catch Z, (or we lead them to him) I gotta give you credit where credit is due. If the police had been as diligent as this site, we might know who Z is. I might not always agree with the theories voiced in here, but I thank you for having a forum where we can exhaust of efforts in trying. Something inside makes me feel like he will be caught, or at least the mystery solved sometime soon. Thanks again for your hard work!

By Kendra (Kendra) ( - on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 02:58 am:

The popularity of the show has caused a major traffic jam on this website; I had a hard time logging on earlier! Yeah!

I was impressed that Foukes was included in the show. That was a highlight for me. He put to rest the debate about whether him and Zelms questioned Z or not (which they didn't), and where they indeed saw him.

My question is this: who the heck is this Collins guy, his dad, and why haven't any of us heard about him until now? Evidently, because his dad wasn't a strong suspect...

And I also caught the "Mary Lou Jensin". Yikes!

By Kendra (Kendra) ( - on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 03:00 am:

P.S. Clark, good to see you back!

By Peter H (Peter_H) ( - on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 03:12 am:

Re: the hair: Dr. Hottie called it "reddish brown". And Tom, where do you get "reddish blond" for ALA? The 1967 DL? I know there's an image of it somewhere, but I can't find it. My recollection is that it says "BR"

By Esau (Esau) ( - on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 09:13 am:

Dr. Hottie..... I agree.
Ed, I like how Rodelli took credit for your work. He's a real standup guy.
Douglas,I'm now seriously considering your theory.
Howard, I'm now seriously considering your theory.
If the FBI is really interested in Dennis' father why wasn't he mentioned?
I'm going to try to learn as much as I can about Hunter.

By steve merritt (Cashflagg) ( - on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 10:57 am:

Kendra wrote:
My question is this: who the heck is this Collins guy, his dad, and why haven't any of us heard about him until now?...

I agree, maybe I missed it, but I've not heard of this suspect. Has anyone else?

PS - I think Dr Hotttttttt skipped the hair net because she knew she wouldn't look as hot.


By Jim (Jim) ( - on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 01:02 pm:

i thought that the show could have left out the melodrama and gotten down to "just the fact, ma'am"....but it was good to see some newer stuff on th boob tube for once about Z....nice to see that hard science is being used too, about time the technology got caught up with the rest of the ideas and thoughts on the subject!

By Jake (Jake) ( - on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 07:02 pm:

Peter H wrote:
"Other questions: Apparent Scoop: Who the hel is Bill Collins and his suspect dad the Late Charles C Collins? Anyone ever have any contact with Bill?"

Not Bill, but a relative. She preferred to have her name and story kept under wraps. She is definitely not a kook, having been relieved and not disappointed, when Dad was excluded.


By Jake (Jake) ( - on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 07:04 pm:

Valentine Smith wrote:
"Do any of our major suspects know each other?"

Ask Tom about the secret meeting between Arthur Allen and Larry Kane...


By Jake (Jake) ( - on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 07:27 pm:

Alan wrote:
"Watch me pull a rabbit out of a hat. Notice that at no time do my hands leave the ends of my arms. Halliburton, Unocal, Wackenhut, THE CARLYLE GROUP, oh boy..."

Aw, you're just being paranoid. The unprecedented use of military spy planes in a domestic "criminal investigation" will only carry US military men in an advisory capacity, nothing to worry about.

Wearing my tinfoil helmet,

By Valentine Smith (Valentinesmith) ( - on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 09:03 pm:

Jake? Are you serious?

Tom? Is he serious? Did I miss something important somewhere on this site? I thought I had already combed over the site for every detail. Frightening my girlfriend half to death in the process.

I'm watching the special again right now...seeing if there's anything important I missed. As cool as the special is, I guess it is kinda "surface level" for those of us who have...I don't wanna use the word "obsessed" over this for some time already.

By Ed N. (Ed_N) ( - on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 11:51 pm:

Esau wrote:

Ed, I like how Rodelli took credit for your work. He's a real standup guy.

Whatever his reasons, I have no problem admitting that I never seriously thought "Citizen Q" was Z, and did not do much except the preliminary research that identified him. Rodelli gave me a suggestion as to where to look for the letter, and he did 95% of the work, that's cool, but I was the one who found him.

P.S. It was a friend of mine who actually located his residence (just to give Dan credit too).

By VSCANTU (Vscantu) ( - on Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 12:55 am:

ED: Excellent points! I too wonder why they didn't give U credit for your discovery of that "rich SF guy" suspect...But I wonder if Foukes' word on this case can be trusted. Sure, he's a kindly looking old man, but it wouldn't be the only time a cop has stretched the truth to keep up appearences, especially to protect his dept. from looking like total "goats"...The Reddish hair on the stamp: probalby the best explanation is related to Zodiac's own telling of how he kept his fingerprints off all pieces of evidence he ever touched: 2 Coats of Airplane glue! After coating his fingertips, he then prepared his elaborate letters with no worries. Before he stuck the stamps on with his "Sticky Fingers" (appologies to The Rolling Stones), he probably scratched or brushed against his own opposite arm or hand! The fact that this body-hair was reddish-brown (among all the other vast Zodiac-Unabomber evidence), tho, does lead me to demand that they test their DNA against prisoner Ted Kazinski's. This is a no-brainer which COULD solve the case. Q: Is there an EMail address for these DNA-testers that this 'community' could write to with ideas of who to test this against? It just might help sway the case.

By Gregusjay (Gregusjay) ( - on Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 01:47 am:

After watching Foukes point out how they came across Z, I realize my overhead map(on another thread) outlining the approach by the cops is way off.
They apparently were heading west on Jackson towards Arguello, I made the wrong assumption that they would have at least visited the crime scene first. Another note, I remember seeing either on TV or on the Zodiac/Unabomber website
that Theodore Kaczynski intentionally put someone else's hair underneath some tape on one of his bombs in order to throw the police off.

By VSCANTU (Vscantu) ( - on Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 01:55 am:

Oh TOM, I almost forgot: CONGRADULATIONS on having your great web site featured on this fantastic Primetime Special! It was truly historic. I think it was the best show on Zodiac ever...ALSO: A piece of totally bungled Zodiac-DNA evidence: the Paul Stine shirt! By now it's plainly obvious that Zodiac manhandled this shirt on poor Stines' dying body with his hands. And even the airplane-model glue on his fingertips must have partly disolved while rubbing and gripping his hands all over Stines' blood-soaked shirt. It took alot of hands-on effort to 1st pull Stine's shirt completely out of its (almost assuredly) tucked-in place in this dying man's pants. Remember; Stine's body was "dead-weight" & totally slumped over in an awkward position. It took even further barehands muscle power to actually cut off an approx. 1ft. by 1ft. piece of that blood-saturated shirt. These gruesome proceedures had the effect of at least partly wiping off his glue-coated "fingertips" with a "wet rag" (model glue is water-soluble). That's probably why he left those mysterious "prints" on the cab. All this, along with the fact that obviously other parts of The Zodiac's hands (besides his fingertips) came into high-tension contact with the Stine death-shirt, makes it obvious that Z's DNA was all over this shirt "like a cheap suit" (sorry). However, this crucial evidence has been totally ruined by the mishandling of the shirt while in police evidence. (We all saw them touching, rearanging & unfolding this very shirt on the Primetime 'Zodiac' TV Special!) Or has it?? IDEA: How about the 4 or so patches of shirt Zodiac personally hand-cut out & sent with his letters. Have these been tested for his DNA? Even tho they too have probably been handled by many, is it possible that a "common" DNA is consistent to all 5 or so pieces sent and handled by The Zodiac???

By William Baker (Bill_Baker) ( - on Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 10:27 am:

V, your comments regarding the TV coverage of Stine's bloody shirt reminded me that Insp. Carroll specifically said that the missing section had been cut, not torn, from the shirt.

It's probably been discussed previously, so don't flame me folks for not doing my homework, but I'm curious if the swatch was in fact completely or partially removed by cutting. By partially, I mean that a knife could have been used to begin the cut, then torn by hand the rest of the way. If it was cut, then there is yet one more item of evidence never recovered and possibly out there somewhere (or even sitting in some agency's evidence room): The knife used (assuming that it wasn't scissors) would have quite possibly received a transfer of Stine's blood. If it was a folding knife, which seems to be more likely than a fixed blade, fibers from the shirt may well have been retained on the knife, and despite cleaning, probably retained blood traces, too. Unlike the firearms Z used in his killings, there's a good chance that once the knife was cleaned to his satisfaction, he would have held onto it.

I'm also curious if the mailed sections of Stine's shirt were subjected to analysis for the presence of substances similar to the airplane glue Z bragged of using on his fingers. It seems likely that virtually any trace material foreign to the shirt would have been identified, but one never knows for sure.

By Kevin (Kevinrm) ( - on Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 01:21 pm:

When I watch the show (I taped it), it appears to be a rectangular piece that is cut out. I would guess scissors....


By Chrissy Shaw (Chrissy_Shaw) ( - on Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 01:30 pm:

I really think Mr. Foukes did all he could. I was sad to see how sad he seemed. So to Mr. Foukes, thank you.

By Linda (Linda) ( - on Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 02:18 pm:

I agree Chrissy. Mr. Foukes seemed distressed; I'm sure he feels he may have made a difference if he had just stopped to check this person out...

By Peter H (Peter_H) ( - on Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 10:03 pm:

Victor wrote, "(model glue is water-soluble)."


"Z's DNA was all over this shirt "

I would be amazed and disappointed if Dr. Hottie didn't think of that.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) ( - on Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 10:20 pm:

The kind of model cement they sold in the '60s dried very quickly to a hard crust that was quite difficult to remove.

By Jake (Jake) ( - on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 02:49 pm:

Looks like this thread has run out of steam, but I've just posted a transcript of the Primetime feature over at my site, if anyone's still interested (or hasn't seen it). Let's hear it for Lexis-Nexis!