"Occult Angles" to the Zodiac Case
Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Theories: "Occult Angles" to the Zodiac Case
|By Curt Rowlett (Curt) (spider-tr062.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Monday, October 09, 2000 - 12:38 pm:|
My knowledge of the whole Zodiac case is limited to what I have read by Graysmith,
Penn, and on Jake Wark's and Tom's Voigt's websites. But I do know a thing or three about
the occult having been a serious occult student for almost 25 years (though my interest
has waned considerably in the past few years).
It should be understood right up front that the term "occult" is a somewhat loaded "buzz word" in that the term has been demonized to the extent that the very use of the word can sometimes instantly evoke (in some people) sinister meanings where none really exist. Literally translated, the word "occult" means "hidden" as in hidden or esoteric knowledge.
I would like to briefly address a posting made by "The Ayatollah" on another thread in the "Theories" section of this message board in which Ayatollah asks about any occult connections in the Z case:
1)the fact that the cross-in-circle logo is an occult symbol, representing the four cardinal directions, the four seasons, and Hippocrates' four humors.
I personally know of no "occult" symbol that resembles the Zodiac crossed circle that is exclusive to any one of the known occult sciences. There are some great discussions and information that deal exclusively with the Zodiac crossed circle (on this website and others) that point to so many variables as to the possible origins of the symbol (from a movie real leader symbol to a wristwatch) that no single explanation seems possible at the present. If you know of a particular "occult" symbol that does resemble the one used by Zodiac, I would be interested in seeing your source for this in order to study it further (and to seeing it added to the long list of other possible explanations).
2)Satanic cults place great emphasis on the cardinal directions when performing their rituals. The map Zodiac sent to police featured a cross marked on top of Mt. Diablo--spanish for "devil mountain." He seemed very concerned with the locations of the murder scenes in relation to specific angles emanating from Mt. Diablo, which suggests to me that he may have been trying to perform a ritual of some kind.
It is very possible that Zodiac may in fact have been trying to perform some sort of ritual of his own design that included the Mt. Diablo site. His reference to radians, a somewhat esoteric mathematical angle is something that any good conspiracy researcher would instantly associate with Freemasonry! But Freemasonry (in my opinion) is not necessarily an "occult" science, but more of secret society that was/is associated primarily with Christianity, and not something that someone who was interested in Satanism would probably incorporate into a ritual (unless of course one wanted to argue that Zodiac did not care about such distinctions!). As far as "satanic cults" placing emphasis on cardinal directions goes, this would at first glance seem significant, but to interject variables, it should be noted that many other religious beliefs also make use of the four cardinal points in their own rituals (the Catholic church does for one, as well as many Native-American ceremonies). It is tempting to want to associate the sinister name of Mt. Diablo with an "occult" connection, and it is quite possible that Zodiac did so in his own mind, but if that was in fact the case, I personally believe that it would have been something that only had significance to him personally as there really is no "historical" sort of occult ritual of this type.
3)Satanic cults and secret societies (especially those that fall under the Freemasonic umbrella) are highly concerned with the underlying mathematics of nature and human events. Initiates are ranked according to a system of degrees, such as those used in measuring angles (hence the killer's fascination with radians.)
Good point as far as the mathematical association with Freemasonry is concerned, but as noted above, most occult scholars do not associate Freemasonry with what are considered the more "traditional" forms of occultism (but that doesn't mean that Zodiac didn't! That is part of what makes this case so fascinating; the endless variables and possibilities).
4)The killer's suggestion that he was collecting slaves for the afterlife hints at some involvement with or interest in Satanism and/or the occult.
Again, I know of no particular occult or other religious belief that involves the "collecting of slaves" for an after-life. My impression is that Zodiac's cryptic references to (for want of a better term at the moment) "New Age" ideas of this sort show a person who was certainly concerned with ideas of that reflect an unusual religious-type belief system, but again, I know of no religion at all, occult or otherwise, that specifically deals with such a belief.
Although I have attempted to refute Ayatollah's ideas to some extent in my commentary above, this doesn't necessarily meant that I disagree with his/her whole "occult" angle to the Zodiac mystery. Indeed, I tend to believe that there probably was one. Ayatollah's theories are interesting and should be explored further. Please let me know about any additional information that you or anyone else may discover in the future.
|By Curt Rowlett (Curt) (ppp5035.nocharge.com - 126.96.36.199) on Tuesday, October 10, 2000 - 02:54 pm:|
In another thread, "Zodiac's Esoteric Religious Beliefs," "Glen"
"I received this communique recently, and I wonder if there is any supporting opinion among the board members on this."
'In my opinion, the last 18 characters of the 408-character cipher are the signature of the author followed by the word "Piti" (sic). I derived this opinion after studying religious connections to the Z.... Anton Szandor LaVey of San Francisco, who was the leader, "high priest", of "the church of satan" and the author of "the satanic bible" instructed his followers to make their statement, sign their name, followed by the term "pity". I believe that Z followed this instruction.'
"I started this thread to try to nail down Zodiac's religious background, and this seems to do this very well. anybody have info on Anton Szandor? Anyone familiar with the mentioned texts?"
I have studied all of LaVey's materials extensively and I am also the owner of a very rare tome titled "The Church of Satan," a fully indexed and referenced "unoffical" history of The Church of Satan. This "history" is an unpublished book written Michael Aquino, a founding member of the original Church of Satan and the former High Priest of the Temple of Set. (At the time that I acquired my copy, it was available only to Second Degree or higher members of the Temple of Set).
In no place in the Church of Satan history or anywhere else that I am aware of does it make mention of LaVey instructing anyone to sign documents using the ending words "Pity."
I would be interested in learning what the source was for that bit of information.
Hope that helps.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p113.as2.dungarvan1.eircom.net - 188.8.131.52) on Sunday, December 31, 2000 - 11:19 am:|
Curt wrote:-"I know of no particular occult or religious beliefs that involves
the collecting of slaves for an afterlife".
I have read this before and was always been sure it was familiar to me.Zodiac talks about being reborn and collecting slaves.I think this is a belief held by practitioners of the "darker side" of Palo Mayombe.I think the belief(at least the dark path)involves both the ritual killing of animals and for more powerful results, Humans.The organs are placed in a "nganga".The belief is that the spirit of those killed are trapped to do the "high Priest's bidding.He also believes he will have control over them in the next life.Are you familiar with the case of Adolfo de Jesus Constanzo in Matamoros in the late eighties?.He ran such a cult and used ritual killing in such a manner to gain control of a drug empire and as "protection" against authorities.The book "Buried secrets"by Edward Humes gives a full account of the events around this case.Constanzo in the book threatens to kill and then to make the victims suffer more when he joins them in hell.His last words to a murder victim are "you will serve me in Hell"He also speaks about being reborn and returning.It's a fascinating read if anyone is interested and would explain things far better than I could here.
|By Eduard Versluijs (Eduard) (1cust209.tnt34.rtm1.nl.uu.net - 184.108.40.206) on Sunday, December 31, 2000 - 04:59 pm:|
The old Egyptians believed in burying slaves (sometimes alive) in the graves of their pharao's. The pharao needed his slaves to work for him in the afterlife.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p135.as1.virginia1.eircom.net - 220.127.116.11) on Friday, January 05, 2001 - 07:45 am:|
Does anybody know the phases of the moon at the time of the killings?If there's a
Was it waxing or waning?
|By Edward (Edward) (adsl-63-204-75-247.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net - 18.104.22.168) on Friday, January 05, 2001 - 08:59 am:|
Do a keyword search on the board for "moon calendar."
|By Curt Rowlett (Curt) (22.214.171.124) on Monday, January 08, 2001 - 02:08 pm:|
Lapumo wrote, "I think this is a belief held by practitioners of the "darker
side" of Palo Mayombe.I think the belief (at least the dark path)involves both the
ritual killing of animals and for more powerful results, Humans."
Palo Mayombe is a rather obscure religion and I would geuss that the average person had never heard of it prior to the infamous Matamoros case of a few years back. If Zodiac was indeed influenced by Palo Mayombe, I would speculate further that there were very few reference books that discussed the subject in his time. A library check of any person(s) who checked out reference books that were available back then on the subject(in Zodiac's known or assumed stomping grounds) might reveal some interesting names, assuming that such records are still available today.
|By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 126.96.36.199) on Monday, February 12, 2001 - 08:18 am:|
Zodiac made a statement to Hartnell and Shepard about going to Mexico. Darlene was receiving gifts from Mexico, and as it turns out(if true)dope! Can anyone tell us how far back in time(before the 80s)in time this Matamoros group was? Didn't the Girl in that group come from the bayarea? My suspect R.H. has relatives from Mexico, Darlenes ex spent some time in Mexico. He was into satanic garbage, Maybe the z logo came from Mexico? (Just thinking out loud.)
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p36.as1.dungarvan1.eircom.net - 188.8.131.52) on Monday, February 12, 2001 - 11:04 am:|
Sandy,I believe it was late 80's.However Palo Mayombe has strong links with Santeria
practised widely in Mexico.
"An explosion of crimes involving these religions--drug dealing,grave robbing ,extortion and murder-has been reported nationwide.Following the Matamoros case,ngangas were found at crime scenes from Florida to Philadelphia to Kentucky to Sacramento".
|By Kc (Kc) (stkd086.snowcrest.net - 184.108.40.206) on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 05:42 pm:|
Re: collecting slaves and the Temple of Set: There is an obscure little group known as The Church of Raven, whose membership allegedly includes members of the Temple of Set -according to a 1990 roster. They have specific rites which aim to raise the spirit of a recently deceased person and force this spirit to act as their slave for the purpose of destroying their enemies. I don't really know that this has any relevance to Z, however would seem to show that we have sects a lot closer than the Mx. connection that believe in this collecting of the dead for their own evil intents.
|By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wb041.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 07:01 pm:|
I'm a member of the Temple Of Set and I've never heard of this. It doesn't sound at all like our sort of thing. Where did you get this information?
|By Kc (Kc) (stkg004.snowcrest.net - 18.104.22.168) on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 08:12 pm:|
Actually that particular information came from a source which I am sure that as a Member of the Temple that you will discount, Acquinos former girlfriend, Linda Blood. Although it has been my experience that in every group, there are those more radical members that take the system of beliefs to a distorted level to meet their own distorted needs. This is true in all religion, be it Lutherans or Satanists.
|By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wb012.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 10:54 pm:|
Linda Blood was a hysterical stalker, she was never Aquino's "girlfriend."
There's a paper trail a mile wide to prove it, right down to the phone company records of
the innumerable crank calls she made to the Aquino residence.
If you're relying on sources like that, believe me when I tell you that you'll get absolutely nowhere on this case. As an information source, Blood is somewhere between Maury Terry and a Chick pamphlet.
Her book was dropped by the publisher when it was revealed to be too slanderous to be trimmed, as Terry's ULTIMATE EVIL was. There were 38 deletions made in Terry's book in the transition from hardcover to paper.
|By Oscar (Oscar) (pool0019.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net - 126.96.36.199) on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 05:30 am:|
Is it just me, or is this thread reminding others of some byzantine "Dungeons and
Dragons" self-help group. I'm soooo confused!
p.s. Pass the dutchie!
|By Kc (Kc) (stkb086.snowcrest.net - 188.8.131.52) on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 09:55 am:|
Well, there was an expected response. Anyhow, Oscar, I agree this thread is getting way out there and I am beating a hasty retreat, as this particular dungeon is a black hole with a bad dragon and a league of snarling lawyers defending the tunnels. Makes the Z story look benign. Alan, for what it is worth, Ms. Blood is not a resource that I would depend on either, however your quick defense of Acquino may suggest that you need to come out of the tunnel and get some fresh air too.Enough said.
|By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-tp013.proxy.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 12:21 pm:|
Well, I happen to have known the guy for about 7 years. He's a lifetime Eagle Scout
and a highly decorated veteran of our Vietnam debacle, VERY happily married for the past
30 years to a woman who I know would deball him in a heartbeat if he ever pulled a Clinton
on her. He also exemplifies the Eisenhower-era values so sorely missed in today's America
and puts up with a lot more slander than I ever would.
Back on track, I'm not totally excluding Bruce Davis and/or the possibility of a Process spin-off. The drugs/occult angle seems to center on Darlene Ferrin, if there's anything to it at all.
Does anybody know if ALA was involved in any way with any of the proliferation of offbeat religious orgs that were springing up around the Bay Area like 'shrooms on cow flop at the time?
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-103.linkline.com - 220.127.116.11) on Tuesday, August 07, 2001 - 11:24 pm:|
I note in a book on the Druids(I studied them as Manson/Davis were into their
philosophy)states"Other meetings took place at RIVER sources and LAKES because the
Druids worshipped WATER gods and believed WATER to be sacred." We have the SEASIDE
HoneyMOON slaying in S.D. in 64.The '63 murders at the Santa Barbara area right near
WATER.In '66 we also see the killers car parked on RIVERSIDE Dr. at RIVERSIDE.
On 12/20/ (Yule Tide-this is why-I think- Z said "Christmass" in referring to the time of that '87)and it is LAKE Herman Road.In '69 there is BLUE (!)Rock SPRINGS Road and good ol' LAKE Herman again .SPRINGS Road was one of the cross streets the call was placed. I don't think we can go as far as it was PACIFIC phone co.!But, it was part of the BAY area Z addressed in his missives.Count them.
Then comes 9/27/69 and LAKE Berryessa and the attack near WATER and from a grove of OAK trees."The word Druid means knowing the Oak tree...religious ceremonies were conducted... in full costume and hood ...in Oak groves...and justice was administered...Victims were burned alive[planned for Johns and the '63 couple?He attempted to burn them in a lean to]...or STABBED."Bloody cloths were sent to people as a warning-see S.F.The call was placed next to a carWASH.
October '69 and it is WASHington St.in S.F.
If one accepts (I do) Donna Lass was a Z victim then it is LAKE Tahoe.A great many planets were in WATER signs(Cancer,Pisces, and Scorpio are water signs and Aquarius is the "water bearer" )during the attacks according to my astrological experts and Dave Peterson-so many, that they saw a pattern imediately.
Manson told his followers that they were to 'do their activities near WATER and at crossroads('witness Z on this as a FYI). In witchcraft and in Druid teaching they engaged in activities at crossroads and near water, etc.Druids and occult groups were into hoildays. Note all the holiday periods in reference to Zodiac attacks including the Labor Day abduction of Lass on a DRUID NEW MOON-"around in the SNOW."(EMP mine).All this is only the tip of the ICEberg!
|By Tony (Mahalo) (1cust186.tnt1.wailuku.hi.da.uu.net - 18.104.22.168) on Wednesday, August 08, 2001 - 05:19 am:|
Very interesting Howard. It shows off your FLUID style.
|By EviI (Evii) (22.214.171.124) on Friday, October 05, 2001 - 10:11 am:|
What strikes me as interesting about Z, from an occult standpoint, is the similarities between Z's crimes & those of David Berkowitz. The theory that Berkowitz was involved in a cult (Most likely the Process Church) is taken seriously by many knowledgable journalists & investigators, is it not?
This leads me to think that it's highly likely that if we start from the belief that Berkowitz was in such a group, we can zero in on Z by looking for such a link to these cults in each of our suspects.
We all know of Davis' occult ties. I just can't get past his long hair at the time of the murders as a reason to discount him, though. Does anyone know if any of the others were involved w these groups?
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (126.96.36.199) on Friday, October 05, 2001 - 10:24 am:|
The "he must have had an accomplice" cry goes out often when a serial killer
It doesn't take a team effort to sneak up on an unsuspecting couple parked in a secluded area. I doubt Berkowitz had help, ditto for Zodiac.
|By EviI (Evii) (spider-tp024.proxy.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Friday, October 05, 2001 - 02:39 pm:|
I agree w you that neither Z's nor Berkowitz' crimes would've required an accomplice. But that doesn't mean they didn't have 'em anyway. In fact, hasn't Berkowitz turned out to know a lot about several unsolved murders, scattered all over the US? This leads me to believe that if he wasn't involved in those, he knows who was. Also, didn't the NYPD reopen the Son of Sam investigation after Berkowitz' conviction? To look for accomplices? (Okay, I'll grant you that they didn't find any, but still...)
|By Bookworm (Bookworm) (cb23775-b.rmvll1.il.home.com - 184.108.40.206) on Saturday, October 06, 2001 - 05:31 am:|
In the Berkowitz case, I remember there being some identity differences as reported by
witnesses, and that might have lead to the idea of more than one shooter.
Berkowitz never got the death penalty, which makes me wonder if the suspicion of accomplices is real. The same for Kaczynski, unless his being spared is because of his brother's wishes. In both cases, they had them dead right, and could have prosecuted the cases successfully.
|By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ntc-ta032.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Saturday, October 06, 2001 - 08:35 am:|
New York did not have the death penalty so Berkowitz could not have recieved it.
|By EviI (Evii) (spider-wl081.proxy.aol.com - 18.104.22.168) on Saturday, October 06, 2001 - 11:16 am:|
Good point about the identity differences, Bookworm. Though Sylvie is right, there was no death penalty in NY in '77. btw, just as an aside, in 1977 I was 11 yo & living w my dad in Forest Hills. I came within 15 minutes of witnessing the 3/8/77 SOS attack.
So anyway, can anyone link any of the suspects (Other then Davis) to the Process church or any similar groups? I'd be especially interested if ALA were to turn out to have been into that kinda thing.
|By Bookworm (Bookworm) (cb23775-b.rmvll1.il.home.com - 22.214.171.124) on Sunday, October 07, 2001 - 06:44 am:|
>Thank you Sylvie and EviI, that clears that up.
Didn't ALA have two trailers, but they only knew the whereabouts of one? I know I read this somewhere, because it occurred to me the other one was possibly in a secret location, where ALA could have some privacy with victims, or a meeting place for a cult he may have been in.
In Curt's second post he discusses "pity" and the occult, mentioned by Glen:
'In my opinion, the last 18 characters of the 408-character cipher are the signature of the author followed by the word "Piti" (sic).'
In the opera "The Mikado," one of the three sisters was named "Pitti-Sing." This opera first played in 1865, plenty early for a cult to have adopted/estracted ritual from it. Sing can be respelled as "Sign," like "Sign-Pitti."
|By EviI (Evii) (spider-tp051.proxy.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Sunday, October 07, 2001 - 10:24 pm:|
I know of only one trailer that ALA had, Bookworm, plus his home. The police searched one, but not the other. They found nothing to incriminate him in the one search, but who knows what they would've found had they searched 'em both? And if there's another trailer, that's real interesting. Especially if he deliberately kept it's whereabouts secret from the authorities.
btw, I want to correct myself on one small point, re Berkowitz: I said that he knew unpublished info about several unsolved murders in different areas. I did a lil research & was only able to find one such murder. That's the 1974 murder of Arlis Perry on the Stanford U campus. But it is unsolved & he did know a lot about it, especially for a NYer...
|By Bookworm (Bookworm) (cb23775-b.rmvll1.il.home.com - 188.8.131.52) on Monday, October 08, 2001 - 08:22 am:|
EviL, I found it in Graysmith's book Zodiac on p. 268.
"I learned through the Department of Motor Vehicles that Starr(Allen?) owned two trailers in 1979. What if in 1971 Starr had had other unregistered trailers? He might have had a trailer in every county where the killings took place and the detectives had had the misfortune to search the wrong one."
I wonder if his family would know for sure, since Allen is now deceased.
|By EviI (Evii) (spider-wo022.proxy.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Monday, October 08, 2001 - 09:30 am:|
Oh I didn't mean to dispute the existence of the 2nd trailer. Like I said, I find it very interesting to note that ALA had 2 (Or more!) of them plus his home. Especially being that he apparently made a deliberate effort to conceal at least one of them.
Really though, it's a d**n shame that the cops didn't search more of ALA's places of residence and/or storage. I like him a lot as a suspect. And if he could be linked to a wierdo occult group, I'd like him even more.
|By William Baker (Bill_Baker) (1cust41.tnt1.santa-maria.ca.da.uu.net - 220.127.116.11) on Monday, October 08, 2001 - 10:27 am:|
I may well be mistaken, but I seem to recall that ALA had a boat trailer, which may be the second of two trailers Graysmith referred to as being on record with DMV.
|By Bookworm (Bookworm) (cb23775-b.rmvll1.il.home.com - 18.104.22.168) on Monday, October 08, 2001 - 08:41 pm:|
EviI, I agree, it almost doesn't make sense that the search wasn't all with more
Bill, I hadn't even thought of a boat trailer. Unless Graysmith hadn't actually seen the DMV reports and was told verbally what the report said, that would explain what seems to be a confusion about what type of trailers they were. In other words the report would have specifically noted the type of trailer.
|By Oddball (Oddball) (slip-32-103-46-57.al.us.prserv.net - 22.214.171.124) on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 02:53 pm:|
Evii, I still wonder about the Arlis Perry case myself--lots of officially unanswered
questions there. It's neat to see this thread up and running again!
|By EviI (Evii) (spider-ta044.proxy.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 07:33 pm:|
Yes, I know what you mean about the Arlis Perry case, Oddball. Bearing in mind that Berkowitz never, to my knowledge, spent any time in the area where Perry's murder took place, we clearly can't name him as a suspect or even a witness in it. But he did know a lot about it. This leaves me to think that her killer (Killers?) told him what he knew, expecting that he could be trusted w that info. This in turn leads me to the belief that he was involved w a group that made a practice of committing such crimes, & that members were reasonably expected to keep such info quiet.
Then I look back at the many similarities between Berkowitz' crimes in NYC & Z's crimes on the west coast. Bearing in mind that they occured within less then 10 years of each other, I find it easy to believe that they're connected. Starting w the idea of Berkowitz' involvement in a cult, the next logical leap would seem to be that Z was in it as well.
|By Esau (Esau) (proxy1-external.scrmnt1.ca.home.com - 188.8.131.52) on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 08:41 pm:|
Evil and Oddball, I'm with you guys on a possible cult connection with Son Of Sam and Zodiac. There are too many similarities; letters to the press, very different composites, and shooting couples in parked cars just to name a few. As far as I know the various law enforcement agencies never looked at the possibilities of out of state unsolved homicides as being part of the "37". I brought this up about a year ago and it seemed that the popular opinion on this message board was that Maury Terry had little if any credibility. Maury Terry aside it's hard not to notice the similarities.
|By EviI (Evii) (spider-wl053.proxy.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 11:01 pm:|
Well Esau, I can agree w the opinion of Terry as a supermarket tabloid level journalist. Even so, facts are facts. The fact that Berkowitz knew unpublished details about a ritualistic, unsolved murder that took place across the country from where he lived can't be explained away by dismissing Terry. Nor can the similarities between Z's handiwork & Berkowitz'. Nor the differing composites in each case. Besides, the NYPD apparently felt they had a good reason for reopening the SOS case after putting Berkowitz away. Even though they never found any accomplices, they seem to have thought they might.
|By Oddball (Oddball) (slip-32-103-46-152.al.us.prserv.net - 220.127.116.11) on Thursday, October 11, 2001 - 04:08 pm:|
There certainly are similarities between the Zodiac and Sam cases. Z seems to have had
at least a passing acquaintance with certain occult beliefs and, given the somewhat
sinister atmosphere of the time and place in which the murders occurred, this is not
really surprising. The "slaves in paradice" bit might well have been nothing
more than a red herring. Still, it is a possible lead and should be pursued(and has been,
in fact, by Howard...with extremely detailed and interesting results).
|By EviI (Evii) (spider-wa041.proxy.aol.com - 18.104.22.168) on Thursday, October 11, 2001 - 09:19 pm:|
Yes, I definetly intend to read Howard's book soon, though I already have a backlog of reading waiting for me to get to it. If I understand correctly, Howard makes a case for Bruce Davis as a Z suspect, am I correct? I'll be interested in seeing him do that, if so, but I'm also very interested to know if any of the other suspects (Esp. ALA) can be linked to Manson, the Process, Scientology or the 4P Movement.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (spider-wg084.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Saturday, October 13, 2001 - 06:31 pm:|
I promulgate the same thesis as the first Zodiac Expert Dave Peterson and that is Manson was the Mastermind of the Zodiac scenario and was "assisted by a few others."
Vince Bugliosi was always amazed at how many people Manson knew and that included Northern CA.I must confess it has amazed me too.He had more than "a few others."
|By EviI (Evii) (spider-mtc-ti061.proxy.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Sunday, October 14, 2001 - 07:19 am:|
Yes, it sounds as though you & I are on the same page. This is a relief to me, as you're a great deal more credible then Maury Terry! Although I've been focusing on the Process more then the Manson Family in the points I've been making here, I definetly see a lot of reason to tie Manson to Z. And besides, Manson was very familiar w the Process Church - he lifted a lot of their ideas & procedures from them, didn't he? So focusing on them still leads back to Manson.
But what I'm wondering now is do you see The Sam killings as a part of this pattern then?
|By Zoe Glass (Zoe_Glass) (max1-13.evansinet.com - 188.8.131.52) on Sunday, October 14, 2001 - 01:02 pm:|
"Occult Angles" or a manipulation of belief systems, offer dots to connect
in all of the above mentioned cases. Yet who would dare address
the churches involved? From strange pyramid shaped
rocks at a scene to ritualistic costume one might find religious symbolism anywhere they looked,if from an abstract point of view.
|By Oddball (Oddball) (slip-32-103-46-154.al.us.prserv.net - 184.108.40.206) on Sunday, October 14, 2001 - 06:39 pm:|
Well, we know of at least two authors who came to grief legally when they hinted that a certain occult group might have played some part in the Manson and Sam murders. But "a manipulation of belief systems" is all that would be required, right? Just one or two yahoos who interpret occult doctrines too literally, and then act on that interpretation.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx2-9.linkline.com - 220.127.116.11) on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 01:48 am:|
No,I do not see any connection(after intense research into a lot of other angles too ) between Son of Sam and the Zodiac.Z came FIRST and this leaves the door open for copy cat crimes and so called "connections."
|By EviI (Evii) (spider-tl073.proxy.aol.com - 18.104.22.168) on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 02:07 pm:|
Well, you've clearly done a great deal more research then I have. And the thought that Berkowitz was merely copying Z's technique did occur to me. I'm still hung up on his claim of bring mixed up w a cult, & his knowledge of the Arlis Perry case, though.
|By Curt (Curt) (22.214.171.124) on Friday, November 02, 2001 - 02:18 pm:|
If you are interested in exploring some of the alleged connections between the Son of
Sam murders and the occult, I have written an article about it which you can access here: Process
There is nothing in that article about the Zodiac murders, however, mainly because I personally didn't then or now see any connections between the two cases (but I am always willing to entertain any good theories anyone may have).
|By Muskogee (Muskogee) (216-19-219-27.getnet.net - 126.96.36.199) on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 05:07 pm:|
Alan, I'd be interested to know what your views are regarding Davis as a suspect, given your knowledge of Satanism. If this is posted somewhere already, please direct me there (I couldn't find anything when I did a keyword search, but I'm new to this posting thing). What "facts" have people gotten right or wrong in the past when discussing this subject?
|By Alan Cabal (Alan_Cabal) (188.8.131.52) on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 06:50 pm:|
The so-called "Manson Family" was merely an affinity group centered around
Charlie and drugs. Bugliosi was a showboater. The wild theories you hear about Process
connections and Scientology connections and OTO connections are just wild theories, and
the Crutch Of Satan was nothing but a cheap carny scam that the wife-beating animal
abusing Howard Stanton Levey, who had failed at every other endeavor in life, organized to
pay the rent.
Charlie's booga-booga nonsense is what a 5'4" white guy who has spent most of his life in the system does to keep the superstitious blacks from punking him, and any white man who has done time is bound to be a vicious racist by his experiences, unless he's like, Gandhi or something.
It's really very simple.
Now, I'm not ruling out that Davis might have his own agenda, and strike out on his own. But I don't think that Charlie had anything to do with it.
I have a very tenuous connection with those people, but I think I have a handle on who they are. It's much simpler than people have been led to believe. Jay Sebring and Voityck Frykowski ripped some people off. There's the lynchpin.
|By Muskogee (Muskogee) (216-19-219-27.getnet.net - 184.108.40.206) on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 07:17 pm:|
Thanks, Alan. I agree that it's much more logical that Davis would be acting on his own. I appreciate your views on Satanism because I know very little about it.
|By Alan Cabal (Alan_Cabal) (220.127.116.11) on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 07:55 pm:|
It's an acquired taste.
|By Alan Cabal (Alan_Cabal) (cache-dh03.proxy.aol.com - 18.104.22.168) on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 03:43 am:|
Check this out: