Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Theories: Zodiac & Astrology

Did astrology have anything to do with the Zodiac and his crimes? With a name like Zodiac and the use of astrological symbols in his cyphers, it is a logical question.

There is also the reference to radians which makes it seem like this person may know how to draw up astrological charts. There is a post elsewhere in the board about the Zodiac's logo being what in astrology is called a cardinal cross. I do have a book belonging to a friend of mine featuring a diagram of a cardinal cross. The book is "Chart Your Own Horoscope" by Ursula Lewis and is published by Grosset & Dunlap.

I am not an astrologer and am new to the details of this case. All that I know about it, I learned from reading this and Jake's websites only a few weeks ago.

Also posted on the message board are references to phases of the moon at the time of the crimes. I couldn't locate them so I will post some additional information in the following post.

I wanted to compare locations of planets at the time of the crimes with the only suspect at this site with a given birthday to see if there were any patterns to planetary locations. Of course, there are zillions of ways to apply astrology to this. I don't see anything special but FYI here it is:

12/18/33 12/20/68
Sun in Sagittarius Sun in Sagittarius
Moon in Capricorn Moon in Capricorn
Venus in Aquarius Venus in Aquarius
Mars in Capricorn Mars in Libra
Jupiter in Libra Jupiter in Libra
Saturn in Aquarius Saturn in Aries
Uranus in Libra Uranus in Aries
Neptune in Scorpio Neptune in Scorpio

7/4/69 9/27/69
Sun in Cancer Sun in Libra
Moon in Pisces Moon in Taurus
Venus in Cancer Venus in Virgo
Mars in Sagittarius Mars in Capricorn
Jupiter in Virgo Jupiter in Libra
Saturn in Taurus Saturn in Taurus
Uranus in Virgo Uranus in Libra
Neptune in Scorpio Neptune in Scorpio

10/11/69 3/22/70
Sun in Libra Sun in Aries
Moon in Libra Moon in Libra
Venus in Virgo Venus in Aries
Mars in Capricorn Mars in Taurus
Jupiter in Libra Jupiter in Scorpio
Saturn in Taurus Saturn in Taurus
Uranus in Libra Uranus in Libra
Neptune in Scorpio Neptune in Sagittarius

& FYI:
10/30/66
Sun in Scorpio
Moon in Taurus
Venus in Scorpio (a time of passion,
possessiveness & jealousy esp
while sun in Scorpio)

Mars in Virgo
Jupiter in Leo
Saturn in Pisces
Uranus in Virgo
Neptune in Scorpio

This post is basically in response to the moon phase discussion. I thought I would check further into planetary locations. I thought maybe Zodiac planned to kill while maybe the moon was in a specific sign...Doesn't look like it and on my theory with astrology and the zodiac the planetary activity at the time of the crimes didn't factor into it.

Also, missing are Pluto and Mercury. My reference book has left out Mercury because it changes signs so quickly the book would be too large! And Pluto stays in a sign for several years as do I think Saturn and Neptune. And houses of planets change based on the time of day.

Sorry! My post wont accept my tabs between the crime dates!

Hurley wrote:

"There is also the reference to radians which makes it seem like this person may know how to draw up astrological charts."

I know very little about astrology but have always thought that there must be something more to this angle as far as Zodiac is concerned. I mean, he took his name from astrology, but then he says almost nothing else about the subject (that I am aware of).

Question: in your quote above, are you stating a fact, i.e., that you know that radians are used in casting astrological charts or is that a guess? If the answer is yes, they are used in astrology, that would seem to me to be an interesting clue in this case...

Please elaborate further.

Curt,
http://members.aol.com/Labyrinth13/X/index.htm

Where exactly are the astrological symbols (other than the weel-known Z logo) in the ciphers?

PeterH

Astrology is forecasting events by tracking the movements of planets through the sky. Astrology is also supposed to be an indication to personality types based on the location of planets when you were born.

A lot goes into writing up a chart and these days it's all computerized. There are a lot of formulas and equations.

To draw up an astrological chart, you draw a circle and divide it into twelve equal parts. Now there are so many degrees in each twelfth of that chart.

Each twelfth is a house and corresponds to the constellations of the zodiac as they appear from earth and the center of the chart is the earth.

An astrologer can track the planets as they move through the sky through each house. They can also interpret the meanings of planets moving through the houses and the meanings of planets based on their location to one another. They do all this by calculating minutes and degrees of planets in the houses and the distances between planets.

I don't think I've ever actually heard anyone say radian in astrology but astrology is dealing with arcs and angles and degrees and minutes. They call them aspects and orbs...

As for the ciphers, there are astrological symbols there. In the name cypher he has a Taurus symbol three times and what appears to be an upside down Aries symbol once.

In the other ciphers, there is the circle with a dot in the middle. That is the astrological symbol for the sun. The triangle with a dot, means nothing to me but a triangle is an astrological symbol for a trine meaning certain planets form a triangle between them which is usually a good omen. The backslash is also the symbol for a simple trine, two planets sharing a good aspect, the circles with lines through them in astrology represents hemispheres, north & south or east & west depending on how the circle is divided, squares are used to show difficult aspects between planets though I've never seen colored in squares, colored in circles are symbol of new moons, circles could be O's or full moons, the upside down V could be a semisquare in astrology and then there is the upside down V with a line over it which is a semisextile in atrology. His small case t in the ciphers are either t's or plus signs used in astrology and astrology does use Q's, Quintiles in writing out formulas but I don't know what for. S is separating aspect, A is applying aspect. Of course yes, it's just the alphabet but he call's himself Zodiac so how much does astrology really figure into this if at all?

So, I look at it and think he either made that stuff up or he's familiar with astrology. He calls himself the Zodiac and then there is his logo which is called a cardinal cross. It represents, "cardinal" signs, Capricorn, Cancer, Libra and Aries. Authorative signs, planets falling at these angles are the most powerful/ influential.

I think this person just played with astrology and I don't believe that any astrology he used if any in his crimes was too indepth but who knows.....

I've just realized that the sun and/or moon were all in cardinal signs on the dates of his crimes! With the exception of Cheri Jo Bates in which evidences suggests it was not a Zodiac crime!

Hurley,
The astrology angle has been played to death by Graysmith...and Shirley Maclaine.I also would ask, as does PeterH, about the specific location of astrological symbols in Z's ciphers. I think there is also something to be said that Zodiac did not give himself this catchy little moniker until the case was well under way. There is the distinct possibility that the name was a mere afterthought. The papers originally called him the "Cipher Killer", but Z's dramatic nature would never stand for something so pedestrian. He might as well have called himself "the Gimp" or the "Creole Kid". He never bothered to explain the moniker, so we will never know for sure. Utter speculation is a harsh mistress.
Oscar.
p.s. Don't be offended, I'm a pisces.

The Vallejo Times-Herald ran an astrological column that appeared on the same page as articles on the Blue Rock Springs murder. This column consisted of numerically coded horoscopes, i.e., a set of numbered keywords ("Your," "Favorable," "Deliberate," "Squarely," etc.) matched to a numerical annotation for each astrological sign (e.g., 13-29-39-43-69-70-77 for Pisces). A number of astrological symbols were employed in the column.

There's little doubt in my mind that Zodiac perused all the newspaper articles relevant to the shooting and might very well have used this column as the inspiration for his name.

Douglas Oswell

Oscar, You a pisces! I'd never believe it but I've heard of pisces sarcasm, being a pisces myself. Hm, pisces the fish, you must be a stingray or baracuda!

Well I described the astrological symbolism I've seen in the cipher above. In determining whether or not astrology played a part in Zodiac's crimes would take a lot of mysterious fluff away if it could be proven that it didn't. You know, separate the wheat from the chaff.

Anyhow, whether you think astrology is silly or not, if it meant anything to the Zodiac, especially with it being a popular fad during his known crime years, it's best to explore it.

What do you think about the Zodiac symbol? It is a cardinal cross representing the cardinal signs, signs of authority, Aries, Cancer, Libra and Capricorn? All of his known crime dates happened when the sun was in the signs of Aries, Cancer, and Libra.

It doesn't take great knowledge of astrology to know when the sun is in these signs. The newspapers print them everyday. A little more knowledge would be needed to know what a cardinal sign is.

Now, be kind. I'm a pisces and I have no idea what Graysmith or anyone else has said though I would be interested and I am very interested in Graysmith's book.

Hurley:

A detail I suppose, but for what its worth:
Aries (3/21 - 4/19), Cancer(6/22 - 7/21) and Libra (9/22 - 10/22)? I don't think so. I get one crime (BRS 7/4) in Cancer, two (LB 9/27 and PS 10/11) in Libra and one (LHR 12/20) in Sag. That's none in Aries and one in a non-cardinal. Well, three out of four ain't bad I suppose.

Hi Peterh,

I've counted the Hwy 132, Johns kidnapping as a Zodiac crime. The sun was in Aries. I had previously stated too that maybe we need to look at the sun and moon signs since that Dec. had sun in Sag and moon in Capricorn.

The moon changes signs about every 2 days. On 7/5/69 it was considered in Aries, on 9/26/69 it was in Aries. I don't have exact times of the sign changes. Unless it's detailed, these books round it off. On 12/20, the sun was getting close to the cusp of Capricorn but that didn't change until 12/23 that year.

It's funny too how one moon in Cap, the next two close to moon in Aries and the next two moon in Libra. In their natural order. Let's say he wanted to commit crime with a certain sun sign and a certain moon sign, timing would be everything. Sun changes signs about every 30 days and the moon, as I said about 2.

Also, I think it's funny how much the first Dec. crime resembles ALA's planets. I had a discussion with someone about it. That's probably the closest the planets would ever come to resembling his birthchart in his lifetime. It's my understanding that planets would take about 2000 years to re-align themselves to your identical chart. Especially to catch those other planets while the Sun in Sag and Moon in Cap. It's like how do you celebrate those "special" little moments in your life? Not funny I know.

The Vallejo Times-Herald ran an astrological column that appeared on the same page as articles on the Blue Rock Springs murder. This column consisted of numerically coded horoscopes, i.e., a set of numbered keywords ("Your," "Favorable," "Deliberate," "Squarely," etc.) matched to a numerical annotation for each astrological sign (e.g., 13-29-39-43-69-70-77 for Pisces). A number of astrological symbols were employed in the column.

Douglas Oswell

This is true and Pennsmith didn't mention it? Doug, any way you happen to have the columns from the dates of the murders?

I probably do. The copies I have of those stories contain a lot of other stories irrelevant to Z, and probably that column too. I'll have to check.

Glen, all I have is just a couple of corners from some 81/2x11 photocopies that were sent to me by the RFK Library in Vallejo. I'm hoping that Ed has the whole thing, though. Ed, look for the Times-Herald inside pages for July 7 and 8, 1969 where the front-page BRS articles are continued. I have to stress that I've not seen the entire column; just those small pieces. I meant to send away for the whole thing some time ago, but got a little sidetracked.

It's not in my files, so it might be in my stack of unfiled copies (I know, I'm bad). It's back to work this weekend for me, so if I can't find it, it'll have to wait till Monday at the earliest before I can get to the library and check it out.

Meanwhile, here are the two fragments in my possession.

Thanks Doug!

Assuming it can be demonstrated that the printed list of words next to numbers was always the same in each paper, the obvious long-shot would be to compare them against the dates on the door to see if Z left a message other than "Use The Force, Luke!" There are a couple less obvious things to check, but I think I've said enough.

(I just know I'm gonna kick myself, 'cause I've given a new box of ammo to a whole army of Wookies, and the Wookies sure seem to come out on Halloween!)

Doug,

That's very interesting. I'd be very curious to see the whole page.

So by looking up specific numbers given you could find out what kind of "day" you were going to have or was this game or puzzle?

Quite interesting. Was this a daily feature in that newspaper?

I believe it was some kind of regular feature, and the coded aspect enabled the newspaper to present a fairly complex horoscope for each astrological sign in a limited space.

Hurley,
Uh, if you are "interested in Graysmith's book", and have "no idea what Graysmith or anyone else has said", may I make the obvious suggestion? Why don't you go out and buy, or steal it? You might find it informative. If you are into the serious 'yucks', may I suggest Penn's "Times 17" (a rather cryptic reference to the number of times you are expected to nod off while reading this *&#!!). If you are really into self-flagellation, why not try Graysmith and Penn! Hoo-yah! In all seriousness, you should do the basic background reading, or at least admit that you are talking out your blowhole.
The Material Girl,
Oscar.
p.s. The answer to the Zodiac mystery is in the tea leaves.

Hm, there he goes again;

Shot girlfriend with nail gun, mysterious "letter" mentioning flagellation. Is Oscar a sexual sadist??

It doesn't matter what YOU think of tea leaves or anything else. If they had meaning to the ZODIAC, then that's what is important. All I am asking is is there a clue to his identity, methods or motives found in astrology?

No. Oscar thinks astrology is stupid so we shouldn't ask these questions. Can you provide a definate answer to the above?

Well here I go again, In Graysmith's book regarding Zodiac's 8th letter, it implies Zodiac has now an 8th victim.

Graysmith continues (and unsolved at that time anyhow) that there could only be two known victims.

Elaine Davis, the sun/moon signs no match. The second one however (it doesn't seem like typical Zodiac but..) they compare similiarities to the Zodiac. Leona Roberts missing on 12/20/69,(this is one year after Lake Herman crimes which they failed to mention in comparrison) sun in Sag and moon in Capricorn, just like at time of the Lake Herman crimes.

Continuing in the book he states that on Sunday, April 19, 1970, a man named Christopher Edwards was offered a ride and felt uneasy about it by a man he identified as the man on the Zodiac sketch. The sun was in Aries and the moon in Libra.

(Also on this date he states a lamp designer named Robert Salem was slain but police said it was a Zodiac copycat).

Oops! So sorry! Leona Roberts was missing on 12/10/69, (which could be a good reason why they didn't compare it to 12/20/68!) But the sun was in Sag and moon in Capricorn like on 12/20/68. Zodiac's 8th letter was postmarked 12/20/69. A reference to Lake Herman? Also, they for some reason say she was kept alive for 10 days after her abduction which would be 12/20/69.

What I'd like to see from the astrologists on this site is a reduction of astrological signs to statistical format. How many days per year is the sun in Sag and how many days per year is the moon in Capricorn, for instance. How many days per year are these occurrences expected to overlap?

The definitive investigation into any association between Zodiac's crimes and the actual Zodiac would delineate the planetary correspondences and calculate the chances of any group of random events happening during such correspondences. Should Zodiac's crimes demonstrate a statistical pattern significantly above the expected norm for random occurrences, this would be definitive proof that Zodiac chose his name and his actions according to some scheme.

Until I see such data, forgive me for doubting. Anyone interested in providing the appropriate data for this time frame? I can run the stats on the information provided if necessary.

Hi Glen. I absolutely agree. Let's see. There are twelve signs in the Zodiac. The sun remains in each sign for about 30 days. The moon stays for about 2 days. And of course they move in their natural order which is:

Aries(3/20-4/20), Taurus(4/20-5/21), Gemini(5/21-6/21), Cancer(6/21-7/23), Leo(7/23-8/23), Virgo(8/23-9/23), Libra(9/23-10/23), Scorpio(10/23-11/22), Sagittarius(11/22-12/22), Capricorn(12/22-1/19), Aquarius(1/20-2/19), Pisces(2/19-3/20)

So roughly he has 4 months a year and 4-5 days in those months.

Graysmith's book states Zodiac wrote on April 19, 1970 the My Name is Cipher & letter and the Chronicle received it on April 21, 1970. And that he claims to have killed 10.

The sun moved into Taurus from Aries on April 21 in 1970. It had been in Aries from 3/22/70 (date of Hwy 132). He sent his letter at the end of the Aries cycle. Was this on purpose?

There was actually about 9 days when the moon was in a cardinal sign during that time. (That's a greater average than I quoted above). It would be interesting to see if there were any unsolved crimes at during that time.

The book does say on March 13, 1970 a Vallejo woman was missing and found dead on March 21, 1970. It does not fit any sun/moon signs like above but it is similiar to the 12/10/69 crime. On 3/21 the sun was ready to move into Aries and the moon into Libra. I do not have a book with exact times.

The book continues to say that his 11th letter was postmarked on June 26, 1970. He claims to have killed 12 people. The sun moved into Cancer on 6/22/70. On 6/25-27 the moon was in Aries.

Graysmith seems to claim that on July 24, 1970, Zodiac wrote his 12th letter claiming 13 victims. Again the sun just moved from a cardinal sign Cancer into Leo on July 24, 1970. There was about 8 or 9 days when the moon was also in cardinal signs during that time.

So there are 12 signs, 4 Cardinal (4 fixed & 4 mutable). 4 months of a year the sun is in a cardinal sign and the moon changes signs about 2-2.5 days so I guess about 1/3 of a month the moon is in a cardinal sign.

Hurley,

1/3 of the month eh? So if Zodiac didn't always hit the signs right, was this luck of the draw or intention with mysterious and sinister underpinnings?

So what you're saying is that my intitial impression of Graysmith correct - "there is something going on in the zodiac on any given day, and all you have to do is look hard enough if you want to find meaning in them."

Graysmith went as far as to dredge up ancient ceremonies and festivals to draw his connections, and I believe that we can find links to religious rites performed on every day of the year!

The writing of letters on anniversaries of dates certainly increases sign correlation, even though nothing more can be drawn from that fact than Zodiac owned and knew how to use a calendar. It has been suggested that writing on the anniversary of an action is also a way to clearly identify that the letter is from the killer. I'm still having trouble finding the zodiac in all of this.

Hi Glen,

There are only about 40 days per year that match Zodiac's sun/moon sign pattern. Even less considering the fact they say his crimes were all on weekends.

There were dates given in Graysmith's book in which people say they've had some type of encounter with the Zodiac that does not fit the sun/moon pattern.

He has also written letters on yes, anniversary dates and at other times but by chance I happened to notice that two or three of his letters claiming to have taken another victim were on dates when the sun was leaving a cardinal sign which only happens 4 times a year.

When I have the time I will look up the signs for his other letters. Also if he did only kill at a certain time, you would have to wonder how long he could keep that up before he decided to do it just because he liked it.

He was ritualistic by the fact that he took time to write these letters to different papers, the police department and people. And the fact that he put a lot of time into creating ciphers and designing bombs.

Maybe if he did plan to kill by sun/moon signs, that was just another way to taunt police and his letters sent at the end of cardinal sign cycles was his clue as well as his logo. I still have to check the letters out of curiosity but thanks for listening.

I got to the JFK library and copied the relevant "Star Gazer" columns from the Vallejo Times-Herald from July 4, 5, 7, 8, and 9 (there was none on July 6), 1969. Just follow this link Star Gazer to check them out. And yes, I finally registered the domain name, "thezodiacfiles.com" in anticipation of constructing a newpaper timeline for those who are interested. It's been a long time since I've done html, so bear with me!

Hi EdN. Thanks for the link to Star Gazer. That's pretty amazing. Zodiac definately could have been influenced by something like that. It's rather cryptic and so was he.

A newspaper timeline is definately interesting!

Well Okey Dokey. In the back of Graysmith's book he lists Zodiac Victims and Possible Victims.

He lists 49 of them from 10/30/66 to 5/20/81. Maybe Zodiac did do them all or only some or maybe he didn't but out of those 49, only Jensen/Faraday, Ferrin/Mageau, Shepherd/Hartnell and Stine have the sun/moon sign pattern as well as the reports of Kathleen Johns and Christopher Edwards. The case of Leona Roberts matches the 12/20/68 crime.

Graysmith also states Zodiac crimes were always done at the time of a full moon or new moon. By taking his word for it, the only time you could have a full/new moon and cardinal/sun/moon would be at about only those exact dates above.

My reference books do not list exact time changes of the moon. It makes it appear as if they change magically only at midnight which they do not. I realized he lists the Ferrin & Mageau crime as 7/5/69 and I listed it as 7/4/69. This would make the Sun in Cancer and Moon in Aries according to my book which leads me to believe it actually moved into Aries sometime in the evening of 7/4/69.

This could explain why Zodiac committed the LB crime in the day and not late at night which would make him mask his face and use a knife instead of drawing attention with the sound of a gun which he carried because he would use it if he had to, because he wasn't going to get caught.

His chance of committing a crime during a full/new moon at the time of Sun Libra/ Moon Aries would have been over by nightfall.

This could be why the 12/20/68 crime was Sun in Sag and moon in Capricorn. If he waited for a new/full moon and the Sun to go into Capricorn, he would have missed his chance or maybe he thought or had information that the sun was in Capricorn since it was nearing the cusp, the change of signs. You could be born on say 12/21 and one be a Sagittarius and another be a Capricorn depending on what year it was because of the exact change of signs.

You would have to go to an astrologer or get a book to figure it out.

OK, I quicky scanned the list of Zodiac letters for any sun/moon patterns. He wrote all the time but only some letters he stated or implied having killed someone. Written or received:

8/1/69 Sun in Leo Moon in Aries
10/14/69 Sun in Libra Moon in Sag
4/19/70 Sun in Aries Moon in Libra
6/29/70 Sun in Cancer Moon in Taurus
7/24/70 Sun in Leo Moon in Aries
10/6/70 Sun in Libra Moon in Sag (copy cat letter?)
10/28/70 Sun in Scorp Moon in Libra
3/15/71 Sun in Pisces Moon in Libra
3/22/71 Sun in Aries Moon in Capricorn
1/30/74 Sun in Aquarius Moon in Aries

I don't see any sun/moon pattern but he does have a lot of the 4 Cardinal signs showing up, Aries, Cancer, Libra and Capricorn.

10/28/70 Zodiac had sent the Halloween Card and in it was written 4-teen.

Was he saying he killed his 14th victim and or maybe on 10/14/70? Sun in Libra Moon in Aries.

I thought he meant four teens.

According to astrology everyone's physical traits are influenced by their astrological sign.

They say the shape of your palm is one example. Fire signs (Aries, Leo & Sag) are triangular, meaning these people have claw shaped hands.

Earth signs (Taurus, Virgo & Cap) have rectangular shaped hands and generally long fingers.

Air signs (Gemini, Libra & Aqu) have square shaped palms while Water signs (Cancer, Scorp & Pisces) have "spatula" type of hands, meaning your palms look something like Australia!

People influenced by Gemini tend to be ambidextrous, good with words and puzzles.

In some reports of descriptions, they describe someone with a rather large head. Could be the influence of Cancer. They say there is one of two types. A round, or large moon face or a large head with a protuding forehead resembling that of the shell of a crab.

Zodiac and astrology, Zodiac and the watch, maybe Zodiac was inspired to astrology by the watch. Everyone always speaks of them as separate ideas.

OK, for anyone who maybe interested, I've been trying to find EXACT moon time changes for 7/4/69 and 9/27/69.

What I've discovered was a lot of conflicting information. What I want to prove is that on 7/4/69 (BRS) and 9/27/69 (LB) that the moon was in the cardinal sign of Aries because I believe Zodiac waited till the moon and sun were in certain signs when he killed.

Some sources say that on 7/4/69 the moon was in Pisces. They use Midnight as an exact time change showing the moon moving into Aries on 7/5/69 at 12:00 a.m. Another book says it was in Pisces and moved into Aries on 7/6/69. The crime took place 7/4/69-7/5/69.

On 9/27/69 some sources list the moon as being in Aries, others as being in Taurus, the sign which comes after Aries. As listed above, I believe the moon changed signs sometime during the day which is why Zodiac chose to mask himself and use a knife instead of a gun because a gun would make noise drawing attention (but people screaming wouldn't?).

I found a really interesting site which provides longitudes and latitudes as well as planetary signs. It states that the moon moved into the sign Aries on 7/5/69 at about 5a.m. It also calculates that the moon moved into Aries on 9/27/69 at 1:29 p.m. which I think suggests Zodiac knew the moon would have changed signs by night which may have allowed him to play out his Mikado fantasy.

http://www.astro.com

For anyone who feels astrology maybe "over their heads" think of it this way:

It is a true astronomical event. The "signs" or constellations truly do exist. Groupings of stars called constellations that appear in our sky. The planets and moon do exist and move around the sky. They appear from earth to move "into" certain constellations which is when they occupy the same sector of the sky at certain times as these constellations. This is astronomy. Astrology places meanings on these transits and Astrologers interpret the "meanings".

Correction: The site I referenced above calculates that on 9/27/69 the moon moved out of Aries at 1:29 pm. and into Taurus. Depending on which other sources you look to, 9/27/69 maybe stated as a day in which the moon was in Aries or the moon was in Taurus. The same applies to 7/5/69. Sources may say it was a day in which the moon was in Pisces or the moon was in Aries. Like I've stated before, they all seem to generalize and use midnight as a time the moon changes signs.

Zodiac Watches:

http://www.vintagezodiacs.com/

Hurley- I have covered the subject of Z and astrology in my book(see my very crude- at present -site www.zodiacmurders.com)The Zodiac Manson Connection.Both Zodiac expert Dave Peterson and myself researched the astro' connection for sometime during the prepartion of the book which I started in 86/7'. I have a friend that was trained by math expert/astrologer Carl Payne Tobey(the best!)and I asked him to examine my suspects chart(10/5/42-a Z post card date in -10/5/70'!). We were both surprised that his Pluto cycle matched the kill dates of Zodiac! He said if Bruce Davis 'is not the Zodiac he should be'!Both Davis and his close friend Manson were heavy into astrology ,numerology(Zodiac is a 4 in numerology ,Bruce is a 4 and Manson is a 4 ;note the 4 dots on the Z Halloween card of 70' and "4 teen",etc.; the symbol is the placement of 2 characters found in a popular astro' book!),witchcraft and the occult in general.Davis was into an 'opposite effect' also. You note that the opposite of Libra is Aries and that some of the positions on the attack periods are Aries.Before I ever met Peterson he had written a letter to a detective stating that Zodiac was a Libra!Please note the upside down Aries sign in Zs cipher-the opposite is LIBRA!Z was into subtle clues.Manson was a Scorpio(I know hard to believe!)and his ascendant is Taurus-hence ,the 3 Taurus symbols; they are not, as det.Hines ,in his ignorance of astrology says are 3 8s! In the" my name is..." note the "NAM" -MAN son-backwards again.I think that Z thought the sun was close enough to Caprcorn in 12/20/68.If you carefully examine Zs letters you can see he was did not always follow details although he was into details(Davis had Vi Rising!).For example he mentions miles/Vallejo call/L Berry' call. The 10/13/69 missive Zee gives a lot of detail,etc.See the 11/29/66 letter.But, he speaks of the hit location of 10'11/69' as "...over by Washington st. and Maple st. last night...".Please see the 8/1/69'missive where Z says he killed the kids "...last Christmass(sic);{note 2 "ss" in Bellis' greeting 12/20/69')even though the time was 5 days away-he wanted a holiday;he says "4th of July" even though it was the 5th.There are other examples, but these should suffice. You mention the Roberts 87'12/10/69'. Z sent a paste up to the Sacramento Bee on that date. The base paper was a torn page from an astrology magazine for Cancer and Scorpio/Nov. is featured.I have a copy of it in my book.Keep in mind that when you look at the Bates 87' you are dealing with an evolving Zodiac so you won't find the exact occult MO,etc. as you will in 68-70'.There was a FULL moon in Taurus and yes, it does rule the throat!Of course ,we have the 'holiday' Halloween.My suspect just started studying astrology,scientology("The
confession By.....")during this time. Manson met Davis in 67' and said that Davis ,at that time, had done time and was into Scientology,etc.I just found out that my suspect was in Riverside ,Ca.in 66'. He lived in Anaheim,Ca. 64-66(30 mins from Riverside!) and "dropped out Nov. 66" according to Manson expert Ed Sanders.You mention the Lake B attack date.Note that for the first time he writes not only the day but the TIME/6:30 of the attack.see?Position and aspect exacts.I don't,like Peterson, follow astrology ,but rather my Christian faith,but I made myself familiar with this subject and the occult in general.One point I bring out in my book is that all of the Z attacks are aspected in the 4th sector(4 again) except the 9/27/69' attack -but this is amazing. It only justifies if you use the Zenth or Equal Sector(house) System.As you know the Placidian System was/is in vogue with many astrologists.Whoever Zodiac was he was into astrology and the occult and I am totally firm on that!I was glad to be able to open to you as you know what I am talking about.The last time I tried to bring up the subject I got my head bit off!Don't need the grief!Keep up the good work.

Howard:

What is the name of your book? I would be interested in reading it and knowing how to chart my suspect with the birthdate of 12-24-44. Moonmaid said she was charting it, but haven't heard from her in awhile. Maybe it's the holiday's that is taking so long.

Thank you Howard! Any time you mention astrology, people seem to mistrust you. I don't believe it in it's practice either but I am aware of it and as I've said before, if it meant something to Zodiac, then you can't ignore it.

The fact that Zodiac left the time on the car door left an impression on me as well. After all that went on, he was aware of the time and felt it important to leave it. As you know, if you're into astrology then time is important. And I wanted to point out that depending on your source for EXACT locations of planets, that very well could vary near sign changes.

Chalandra-Its The Zodiac Manson Connection. See my ol' site www.zodiacmurders.com or amazon.con to order. Thanx for your interest. HAPPY NEW YEARS TO EVERYONE!!!AND GOD BLESS!!!

Howard, have you read my post on Bates under the "She had to die" letter? I am interested in your opinion of the Z squiggle signature at the bottom of one of the letters.

Hurley- The 67' note symbol was declared, as you know, by State Examiner Sherwood Morrill, to be a Z. He was very careful in his work with many years of experience and was the foremost authority on Zodiacs writng-a perfectionist who trained other examiners ,so I move in his direction on this one. I'm always open though, I have no pride of opinion.Some see a 2 possibly saying Bates was his second victim.-"She is not the first(second/2?) and she will not be the last".We remember the "scores" of his later missives.The posts mention zed. This, in England (and Cananda ,but first England),is the last letter of the alphabet. Of interest my guy loved all things England.For Z we have zealot, and in math its an unknown quantity(unlimited # of future victims?),in Engineering impedance;astrology and astronomy zenth distance; a Roman numeral denoting 2,000-thats scarey!The short hand post is interesting too. The Saturn symbol(one of this planets associations is death)is a possibility too.The other astro'ideas are of interest. We'll have to keep reviewing-remember the dets. didn't know astrology (as well as Z researchers!)so they could have missed some clues.I can't say that of premier Zodiac expert Dave Peterson. He was a police reporter and wrote many stories on Zodiacand was at the first crime scene 12/20/68 and never left until his health gave out. I was his associate for many years and for this I am thankful.He had already done astro' research ( a mark of dedication)as he believed Z was into astrology. I have all his papers on this subject.He saw all the Z associations to astrology and the letter and crime dates.Since we both came up with the same conclusions independent of one another we shared ideas and info.Its hard to express to those that don't the subject as they think the Z/ astro' connection is all bunk ;so you are a breath of fresh air!Keep at it -your'e on the right track!

Thank you very much Howard for your opinion and compliment. That's been my fascination all along. As a teenager, we used to play around with astrology, never really taking it that seriously (only all the good stuff, and that was a while ago too!). When I first became familiar with all the details of this story a few months ago, the astrology in it just jumped right out at me. I thought it was just pretty obvious and knew I couldn't have been the only one to see it. But I have been very curious about how educated those investigating this case were on astrology. It probably wont lead to who Zodiac was, maybe it could but there probably is an easier route. It will however provide insight into his MO and maybe what he was all about.

What about using astrology to get Z's address? (I read above about charting; drawing a circle, dividing it into 12 parts, and how each twelfth is a house?) He seemed to be so bold. I think that while this person attempts to be mysterious and complex, he is just strange and simple?

Another idea is to draw a circle around the Z area on the map, circle it and then place the cross over top and see if "X" might mark the spot.

Also, in relation to the astrology theory...if Z is into anniversaries, maybe he is REALLY into them:
The word zodiac comes from the Greek zodiakos meaning a circle. It is often assumed that the connection is with animals (living creatures, from the Greek zoe "to live" and the English zoo. However, the root meaning of zodiakos has nothing to do with living creatures, but instead comes from the primitive root zoad, meaning a path or way or going by steps. In this connection, it is used to denote the way along which the sun appears to move through the stars in the course of the 12 months. This course is repeated every year as the apparent position of the sun returns to the almost exact spot that it occupied on the same date a year before. So the path through the sky along which the sun travels (or appears to travel) is called the zodiac and is divided into 12 segments.

A question that I have is would a zoo in the area be relevant? If you read above about there being a connection of animals and the zodiac, and how zodiac made reference in a cipher about man being the most dangerous of animals.

Also in reference to my above post about possible visitS on anniversary dates, the Batman connection from Zodiac Media category; New website; Apparently at the end of Batman, it would say see ya, same day, same channel?

I believe it was "same bat-time, same bat-channel."

Sure sounds better than what I said! ;)

Did anyone find any relation with the birthdates of each victim and the astrology theory? Even though he killed more than one at a time, maybe it was important just to kill the one but unfortunately at the time he picked to do this, there happened to be another person with them. Obviously if the Z knew their birthdates, this person would likely have access (possibly through work) to that info on other people. Forgive me if this is a repeat. No one has to waste their time to answer me, I am just throwing stuff out there for the pros to look at from maybe another angle.

It has been generally accepted by some that the Z at the end of two of the notes sent in 1967 in Riverside stands for Zodiac. I am not refuting this as it is viable; but I would just like to share the fact that Zonta International had a club at RCC (Order of Kiowa)and essentially their symbol is a Z and the pin is pictured on page 91 of the Riverside yearbook.Zonta is an indian word that essentially means "inspiration".This club was started in N.Y. in 1919 to advance the cause of women internationally.

Zodiac was a duelist in his symbols, etc. and the Z at the end of the two notes could be a harking to Zonta or women as symbolized by a Z(inspiration/ray of light/flash of radience).In the '66 letter it says "Keep your sisters,daughters,and wives off the streets and alleys...Beware I am stalking your girls now."He certainly seems "inspired" to stalk girls!"She[Cheri] will not be the last."


If Cheri Jo was a member of Zonta or the Order of Kiowa- Z there may be some connection, but this , of course,is just an FYZ!

It is now widely believed that the typed letter of which you write was not written by Zodiac, though the Bates must die letters definitely were, so was the poem on the desk.
By the way that desk poem was apparently written underneath the desk, how could a student at the library do that without causing suspicion, could it be that the Zodiac was employed in some way at RCC?

Sylvie-It can be as 'widely' as you wish, but the top secret details were acknowledged by even the RPD as being contained in that typed letter-details that ONLY the killer would have known. I say the printing on the envelope was that of Zodiac!You seal the letter and ...

Howard,
So sorry but I have to disagree. The Riverside detective on the case today says that really the only detail known to this author was the car wire removal, but he believes anyone hanging around the crime scene could have heard that, or found that out some other way, the real detail, he says they kept silent was the mega-multiple stab wounds, and the author of that letter does not seem to be aware of that fact, nor that his hair was pulled out, and a few more.
On the other hand Riverside police say they are positive they know who the killer is and that it is not Zodiac. We'll soon see how right they are, but I do not think it is gonna come out Barnett.

Sylvie-Thank you for your response.In a Oct. 20,1969 letter, the Chief of police, L.T. Kinkead of the Riverside PD stated to Sheriff Earl Randol," The person who wrote the confession letter[11/29/66] is aware of FACTS about the homicide[Cheri Bates]that ONLY THE KILLER WOULD KNOW. There is NO DOUBT that the person who wrote the confession letter IS OUR homicide suspect."

Now, this letter was written ,not a few weeks or months after the 187 of Bates, but some three years after the event ,so there was certainly enough time to reflect on the "facts" and come to a reasoned conclusion. The Chief's conclusion-which differs from yours -"There is no doubt..."


There has been some revisionism and this almost always happens when those that were not intimate with the case are carrying on the investigation at present.I say those 'old timers' knew that homicide and the circumstances of the case well enough to state that someone did not learn of the top secret details and even the Chief of police himself stated that in a private letter to a fellow lawman!

No one was permitted to even go down that alley where Bates was killed until the scene was properly scrutinized. That whole area was 'roped' off and only certain officials ,like Cap.Irv Cross, were allowed in there to more closely examine the crime scene.Do we think the same thing was not done with her VW?It was!They did not go around telling everyone those top secret details either!

The Confession letter has been misinterpreted by some. It was never meant to be a blow by blow description of the crime.Some have badly erred to the point they assert that the letter says that Bates did 'not struggle' and this remark is proof that the writer did not know Bates put up a struggle and ,therefore, was not her killer. The letter is quoted "She did not put up a struggle."Actually, the writer says,"She went to[the alley] the slaughter like a lamb...she WENT very willingly[into the alley]."

I have read this letter over and over since 1987 and I can state that this refers to the fact 'she went without a struggle INTO the alley'and when he first grabbed her she did not resist as he took her further down the alley! There are two sets of prints into the alley and they parallel each other(no struggle)"When we were away from the library WALKING"- until they reach the interior, and he says "It is about time" and he THEN grabbed her; and it is that area that later looked "like a plowed field" according to a detective's notes.

The writer says "she died HARD...she squirmed and shook as I choaked her, and her lips twiched...she let out a scream once and I kicked her head."If this is not resistance and an indication she was badly beaten then it is nothing!"I then finished the job by cutting her throat."The graphic remarks are ENOUGH to inform us it was violent,but not so much that it looked like our macho killer was not up to the struggle with a 5' 3" teenager that was able to delay the inevitable.It must have been secretly embarrassing to him that such a small female could battle so hard and for such a long time.Would the fight have been such if our man was say, 6'2' and weighed some 200+ lbs like a Ross Sullivan?I think he was a smaller man as I view this situation.

He did not count stabs! I have the autopsy report and I do not count 42+'true'stabs(I have seen dozens of autopsy photos of murder victims and stabs are clearly seen).Her body shows a life or death struggle-she did die "hard"!A lot of "lacerations" to be sure and these could be tallied as 'stabs' if one wishes, I guess-I don't though.

I don't think someone who was that enraged ,and possibly on drugs,could remember every stab and detail, and even if he did ,he will usually give some details,but not all. The purpose of the letter was to warn and tell why he killed the girl and yes, to boast-as did Zodiac-about the crime.

Anyway, no one but the killer knew about that distributor wire, etc; Chief Kinkead was impressed and so am I!

Good observations, Howard. I've always had a notion that the entire episode began as a rape attempt, and that Cheri was forced into the alleyway by a threat; hence she "went willingly," as the letter writer states.

Another indication that the assailant wasn't very big is the watch with the 7-inch circumference, fastened in the third hole from the end. That's a fairly small wrist and, coupled with the evidence of the struggle, and Bates's small size, gives us a picture of a fairly modestly-built and not overly strong individual.

Howard,I was too for a long time until recently I read a very long interview in the newspaper with the present detective on the case. I am sorry, his name escapes me, I believe it is Shumway, anyway he was very convincing that he has done his homework thoroughly and has no doubts that the author of the letter (presumably Z) had nothing to do with the crime, though he does concede that the Bates must die letters were most probably sent by Z.
I guess the way he explains away chief Kinkaid's letter by saying is that there is new evidence.

Hey if this has been touched on already sorry for repeating but I learned that Zodiac in greek means a group of animals I am going to look into this further though. Also the Zodiac revered to people as animals. Also it is possible he knew the greek translation because did not some of his codes have greek symbols? So the question is which suspect had a small knowledge of greek? Knock this theory down if you can. I would be glad to see if it has any grounds or not.

Garfield,
There is a ton of info on Zodiac and astrology-just check with Archive under new/full moon,astrology,occult,etc.
The reason not only the Greeks, but other cultures referred to people as 'animals' is that animals,in their view, displayed certain characteristics that were observed in people born at certain times during the year.For, example ,if one was born between April 20-May 20 you were a "bull" or Taurus.
They found ,at least it was their opinion,that people born during this period were interested in building,working with wood and stone,real estate or property in some form,were stubborn-'as a bull,'slow to anger and generally easy going, but like the bull, could eventually erupt;they liked the outdoors as they were considered an "earth" sign;could be sloppy and somewhat lazy,and slow and deliberate,etc.
All of this depended on 'modifications' to that "sun" sign based on 'aspects' by other planets(like moon squared to the sun) and what the rest of the planetary positions(like a moon in Leo,etc.)depicted.
I firmly believe the Zodiac was into astrology.Those that disagree I note-with charity- know little to nothing about,not only astrology,but the occult in general.I think it is a fatal error in understanding Zodiac and the case and possibly the identity of the perp.
Anyone,in my opinion(including Zodiac Expert Dave Peterson) who cannot see Zodiac and the connection to astrology and the occult, cannot see the sun at high noon!
See old posts for just some of the reasons for this assertion.
I personally do not live by astrology and the occult,,but I studied the subjects to see if Zodiac did.It takes study-one cannot be intellectually lazy.

Does anyone have or know how to get the time of Allen's birth from his birth certificate? I'd like to have his chart done.