CHASING THE RADIAN: X Marks the Spot (Continued)
Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Theories: CHASING THE RADIAN: X Marks the Spot (Continued)
|By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (ac8aee6b.ipt.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Friday, November 10, 2000 - 11:14 am:|
Part 1 was taking way too long to load...
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (188.8.131.52) on Thursday, November 09, 2000 - 06:53 am:|
There's no real stretch there -- think about it. If the code is a real code
containing real information about a real location depicted on a real map, then the Zodiac
had to work it all out himself on a map, using radians and most likely his favorite pen.
If this is true (and I think it may well be) it's a forceful argument for the possibility that Zodiac was skilled in higher mathematics.
|By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (aca2b1c6.ipt.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Thursday, November 09, 2000 - 12:35 pm:|
Considering the fact that Zodiac apparently used Oken's "As Above, So Below"
as a "study aid" for his ciphers, I see no reason Z couldn't have done the same
type of embelleshing with the radian map...assuming it's not just a ruse.
Of course, fall came and went without any explosive incidents that year, so...
|By Edward (Edward) (adsl-63-204-73-69.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net - 220.127.116.11) on Thursday, November 09, 2000 - 03:19 pm:|
Just for kicks, I checked: Oken's book was not published until 1973, so Zodiac didn't use it for his ciphers.
|By Jake Wark (Jake) (spider-wc072.proxy.aol.com - 18.104.22.168) on Thursday, November 09, 2000 - 03:37 pm:|
Oscar, I thought we were going to "play it straight" on the board! You're due for a spanking when Daddy gets home.
Anyway, talk to my lawyer, Mr. Cochran -- Eddie Cochran.
"This is the Wodiac Speaking..."
|By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-tb041.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Thursday, November 09, 2000 - 06:05 pm:|
Edward: since Oken's book was published four years after the fact, we are left with the
inescapable conclusion that Z somehow travelled through time to commit his murders. He
must have been aboard the Eldridge with Al Bielek in 1943 and jumped ship during
the Philadelphia experiment, but instead of ending up at Montauk in 1983, he arrived at a
library sometime in the mid 1970's and took Oken's book hoping it would give him answers
as to where and when he was, then he phased out and appeared at LHR on 12-20-1968, and, in
his confused state of mind, shot and killed Jensen and Faraday thinking they were
communist sympathizers who had something to with the mysterious way in which he ended up
on the other side of the continent 25 years in the future...
Either that, or Graysmith was mistaken (gasp!). I'm not sure what to believe at the moment...
|By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (ac8120a2.ipt.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Thursday, November 09, 2000 - 06:49 pm:|
I am sure I found the Oken book with a 1969 date of publishing. It was a few years
ago, so maybe I'm mistaken.
Either way, Z and Oken must have used a common source of inspiration for their symbols...unless we believe Oken copied Zodiac.
|By Gregorypraxas (Gregorypraxas) (spider-tk063.proxy.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Thursday, November 09, 2000 - 08:23 pm:|
Personally, I like Ed's theory about the time travel and communist sympathizers. Sort
of like McCoy materializing on 1940's earth, raving about "Assassins!"
|By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-td042.proxy.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Thursday, November 09, 2000 - 11:36 pm:|
"City on the Edge of Forever" by Harlan Ellison... probably the best Star Trek episode ever... I guess this confirms I'm a Trekkie/Trekker... LOL
|By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-td062.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Friday, November 17, 2000 - 10:46 pm:|
I was lucky enough to secure a copy of Alan Oken's As Above, So Below: A Primary
Guide to Astrological Awareness; it arrived in the mail just today. It was published
by Bantam Books in New York, in November 1973.
So it seems that Graysmith was (gasp!!!) actually mistaken! Z could not possibly have used that book as an inspiration (I've just skimmed it so far, but haven't found all the symbols Z used--yet).
On the other hand, maybe Z was really from the Eldridge in 1943...
The Zodiac Files
|By Glen Claston (Glenclaston) (dialup-18.104.22.168.dallas1.level3.net - 22.214.171.124) on Tuesday, November 21, 2000 - 01:25 am:|
I was lucky enough to secure a copy of Alan Oken's As Above, So
Below: A Primary Guide to Astrological Awareness; it arrived in the mail just today. It
was published by Bantam Books in New York, in November 1973.
Just as an observation, Ed, you aren't likely to find all the symbols side by side in a book written strictly about astrology. Go back to Corneluis Agrippa's masterpiece of 1516 and work forward. In that work he unwittingly set the stage for the integration of astrology, numerology, and the cabal in one package. You'll find an astrological compendium from the 60's that has these characters side by side, but it's not all astrology. You'll find that each of these symbols also has numerical value, etc. When contemplating cipher you really need to do the homework and expand the mind.
In the case of Cornelius Agrippa, I say he unwittingly mated these disciplines because that's exactly what he did - he cleverly hid scientific observations within his three books on the Occult, using a system devised and proofread by Johannes Trithemius. The key to the system was in the passages that contained the Latin word for "corn", repeated several times, and even repeated in Agrippa's letter of apology, where he had to denounce his works in the eyes of the church. Even in his abdication he still tried to make his point clear to those who would listen.
He was following a tradition of writers born of necessity, a situation which forced forward thinkers to hide their ideas and "cloak" them in magic. The church turned a blind eye to works of magic, while the hidden text crossed religious and political boundaries without intervention. Agrippa's work was to the initiate a compendium of scientific knowledge, but it still exists to this day as a guidebook for esoteric knowledge. Never mind the fact that one out of three of the people or places he discusses never existed. I still see his works quoted in movies of all things! Ignorance has outlasted Wisdom, and it shall do so for some time to come.
There is a book that contains these characters, but it is not one on astrology. Can you find it on your own, or do I have to help you along! :-)
|By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-td024.proxy.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Tuesday, November 21, 2000 - 07:51 pm:|
Glen... thanks for the encouragement. I really didn't expect to see a listing of all
the symbols, but noticed that he has them as part of chapter headings. Not really being in
astrology, I don't find it particularly interesting, but I shall muddle through it
I didn't know that there was one that actually had them all, and perhaps one day I'll find it... it's not high on my list of priorities, so, whenever I get a chance...
|By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-ta013.proxy.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Thursday, November 23, 2000 - 03:23 am:|
It seemed a little more appropriate to post this here than under the
"Minor Update at the Zodiac Files" thread...
Considering that the 32 symbol cipher contains 32 characters (surprise), it would be far easier to encode a measurement in radians (of which there are 2pi in a circle, or approximately 6.283), rather than trying to encode degrees (of which there are 360), if one wanted to compose a cipher as short as possible.
Just for the sake of argument, consider, for instance, that the code, when deciphered, specified that one had to measure three radians clockwise starting at zero. What's easier to encode, and takes far less characters and thus makes it more difficult to decipher? "Three radians" is a grand total of twelve characters, while the equivalent measurement in degrees would read "one hundred and seventy one point nine degrees," or thirty-nine characters!
I've made this argument before, and I think it's perfectly logical. I therefore think that the only reason Z used radians was for ease in encoding and to increase the difficulty factor for cryptographers, and not because he was trying to be esoteric, plot out murder sites or to show off so that he'd be recognized as some sort of mental giant.
Let's assume that, if we actually follow Z's hint and successfully decode the cipher, which specifies that it contains a measurement in radians and the number of inches one must go along the terminal leg of the radian to find the bomb's location, that it reads something like this:
five radians from zero then two inches
Now, this hypothetical "solution" contains exactly thirty-two characters. Five radians equals approximately 286.5 degrees, and, when measured from zero, would have it's terminal leg somewhere between Walnut Creek and Concord. Then measure two inches out from the center (Mt. D), and you have the location of the "bomb."
Now, this is obviously not the actual solution, but what I perceive to be along the lines of what Z told us was in the cipher. In fact, we can know that Z used a measurement somewhere between zero and seven radians, and that the number of inches is not likely to be much more than six or so, otherwise it will extend beyond the bounds of the map that the bomb is supposed to be located within!!
Once it is looked at in this fashion, just how does plotting two arbitrarily chosen Z-murder sites and Mt. D to form an angle approximating one radian fit into finding the bomb? Other than both having something to do with radians, they have absolutely no relationship to each other, especially since one is specifically implied by Z's own written words, and the other has nothing whatsoever to do with Z's specific statements.
Now, can anyone please explain just how one single radian might possibly relate to this idea I have just proposed to demonstrate how the cipher might actually read?
|By Curt Rowlett (Curt) (ac94155a.ipt.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Thursday, November 23, 2000 - 09:39 am:|
Ed.N.: Your whole assessment above makes a lot of sense, and if the cipher is ever
solved (assuming that it CAN be solved) I'd be willing to bet that it would contain
"compact" directions very much like what you have described. (I completely agree
that given the relatively small size of the cipher, your hypothetical would almost have to
be on target).
You wrote: "Now, can anyone please explain just how one single radian might possibly relate to this idea I have just proposed to demonstrate how the cipher might actually read?"
I'm not sure I really understand the above question. By "one single radian" are you referring to the only one located so far, i.e., the "connected-to-the-murder-sites" radian or something else? Please elaborate further.
|By Curt Rowlett (Curt) (ac94155a.ipt.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Thursday, November 23, 2000 - 10:13 am:|
Ed.N.: Sorry, but I just re-read your original post and see the answer to my question
You asked: "Once it is looked at in this fashion, just how does plotting two arbitrarily chosen Z-murder sites and Mt. D to form an angle approximating one radian fit into finding the bomb? Other than both having something to do with radians, they have absolutely no relationship to each other, especially since one is specifically implied by Z's own written words, and the other has nothing whatsoever to do with Z's specific statements."
Well, I won't pretend that I know the answer to your question as to how the two "seperate types" of radians may fit together in any purely logical and/or mathematical way. But I think that it is important to keep in perspective that the whole radian thing comes from the mind of a serial killer/terrorist who got his jollies by killing people and terrorizing the public.
So, what I am saying is that there may very well NOT be any real ties between the "connected-to-the-murder-sites" radian and the "here is where the bomb is located" radians except perhaps ones that are only meaningful to a person like Zodiac.
If one accepts the premise that both types of radians are a real possibility, i,e., that both are something that the killer really thought up himself, then I suppose you could even turn this into a sort of "chicken or the egg" type question: Which came first, Zodiac's idea to kill people in specific places in order to construct a giant radian across the San Francisco Bay area, or his idea to hide a bomb in a specific place that would require hidden knowledge that he supplied about radians to find?
In my mind I can see him hunched over a map plotting out the sites of the murders that he has already committed and then suddenly coming up with the idea to kill Stine in order to complete the radian. I can also imagine that once this was done he was so pleased with himself that he then came up with the idea to hide bombs (or at least make people think that he had hidden them) by using more radians. The man was perverted and diabolical. He probably hoped that he while the police were looking for the bomb via the radian clues, that they would also stumble across the fact that the murder sites were connected by radians, too, and be horrified as was the original discoverer of the "connected-to-the-murder-sites" radian.
Not so far fetched when you consider that we are dealing with a person who fantasized about murder and death and enjoyed taunting the police and public.
We can't do anything but continue to guess what the "chicken or egg" answer is at this point, but you have to admit that the search is fascinating!
|By Gregorypraxas (Gregorypraxas) (spider-wj014.proxy.aol.com - 18.104.22.168) on Thursday, November 23, 2000 - 10:19 am:|
I have explained how "one single radian" might play a part in the Zodiac's larger intentions. You seem to want to simply wish away any such possibility, although I believe that I have clearly demonstrated that it is perfectly possible that the radian could be a part of the larger solution.
I think your assessment is interesting, and certainly worthy of examination, but I also believe that you are limiting the possibilities of the cipher. It is perfectly possible that the cipher has to do with numbers, and not words, and there are literally infinite possibilities regarding its content. Yours is simply another theory -- it does not rule out the radian theory by any means, and, as I have stated in my previous post in another thread, there is no legitimate argument that the radian cannot conform to Zodiac's instructions.
Ed, I am not trying to pick a fight here, because I like and respect you, and I am always willing to listen and learn, as well as eat crow when necessary. But I take issue with a great deal of what you are saying. First of all, although your assessment is certainly plausible, it is hardly the only possibility. Also, you say the crime scenes were chosen arbitrarily. That is an assumption. You say that the radian theory has nothing to do with Zodiac's statements. This is also an assumption. I presented several arguments regarding most of your issues here, and you apparently chose to ignore them in favor of starting the discussion over again as if your concerns were never addressed.
I have stated, time and time again, that the single radian may assist in locating the others, or, that the radian was meant to be found, along with the other radians, once the instructions were followed. No one (save perhaps, Penn) is suggesting that the radian is just "one single radian" all by its lonesome, has no meaning, no purpose and no relation to the code or the instructions.
To date, I have yet to see any credible rebuttal of my points.
PS: The idea that the Zodiac was trying to show off as some sort of mental giant is Penn's, not mine. That notion has nothing to do with the theory I have presented, and I would appreciate it if, in the future, we could try to stick to the issues and not keep invoking Penn or his ideas as reason to dismiss theories.
|By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-td021.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Thursday, November 23, 2000 - 02:43 pm:|
Gregorypraxas: I'm not trying to start a cyber-fight here either, just trying to
understand how apples and oranges fit together. I have not been able to see them as
different facets of a greater whole yet, because, while you do make logical arguments, in
the end, they are still only assumptions regarding a phenomenon that has been remarked
upon and undeniably does (approximately) exist.
I know the hypothetical solution I offered is only one possibility, and the attempt was to show how Z might have encoded the information necessary to find his "buried bomb." If the cipher does indeed contain numbers, then it can never be solved, because there are (perhaps) infinite possibilites as you have stated. However, bearing in mind the one cipher that was solved, we can only assume that Z was consistent and encoded only letters and not numbers as well.
My position has always been that yes, while the BRS/Mt D/PH sites form an angle approximating one radian (we've been over this ground before, and rehashing is somewhat redundant), I still see it only as coincidence and the sites as arbitrary, because we're only assuming that Z even intended to construct such a thing. I've not ignored your arguments, but attempted to approach this from another angle (sorry about the pun) to make sense of the apples (one single radian) and oranges (my hypothetical solution based on Z's hints).
Now, if the one single radian may help in locating the others, how? That's what I want to know. I proposed a hypothetical solution (of which there are others, of course, but the number is limited by the brevity of the cipher if my assumptions about it's content are correct) which shows the directions to finding the "bomb" in an attempt to inspire others to think about how these apples and oranges might work together, and come up with a viable explanation.
I haven't forgotten your other arguments, I'm letting them percolate in my head for a while before attempting to address them, which I'd rather do while awake instead of being half-asleep as I was last time!
That comment I made about the "mental giant" was specifically directed at Penn (I hope he's reading this!!!!). Sorry, I couldn't resist that one; the purpose was not to dismiss the radian theory by invoking its pompous originator, but just to poke fun at said originator. Maybe one day he'll deign to return to this mortal coil and gently show the way that leads to truth to us misdirected lesser mortals he's left behind in this vale of tears...
|By Curt Rowlett (Curt) (acad63c5.ipt.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Thursday, November 23, 2000 - 05:15 pm:|
Gregorypraxas and Ed.N.: I may be butting in here, and if so, let me know and I'll bow
out gracefully, but this thread is a very interesting one for me.
EdN.: If I may say so, I don't see this issue as an "apples and oranges" sort of problem at all, but that is solely my own opinion. And what you wrote about not being able to see both the "murders radian" and the "bomb radians" (my italics for emphasis) as different facets of a greater whole yet is probably the key here. My point being that I don't think that they have to be seen that way.
If I may be so bold, it seems to me that you are perhaps just being very cautious and possibly seeking some sort of tangible validation for the murder radian in order for it to seem less like a coincidence for you, i.e., that you require more solid proof than just using intuition.
I have been interested in this case for about four years now, but I know that I don't have anywhere near the same amount of personal knowledge as many folks on here do. Yet what I have seen so far in studying the Zodiac case is that many areas have large blank spaces filled with question marks in them, and that to some degree, logical deduction and yes, intuition are all that there is in order to try and fill those blanks. Cops working tough cases use that sort of thing all the time. (And please don't get the wrong idea here, I am most certainly NOT telling anyone that they have to have faith! That is most certainly not scientific at all. But I see intuition as an extension of logic and reason).
As I wrote in my previous post, I don't believe that the "murder radian," if genuine, exists for any other reason except for its shock value and my intuition tells me that if that radian IS genuine, that is all that Zodiac may have ever intended it for. I really don't see any other "use" for it than to shock and terrorize people. (It worked that way on me, as far as the being shocked part goes anyway).
Assumptions yes, but until more hard evidence comes forward or is revealed in this area, intution may be all that there is to work with.
My two cents and now I'm off to enjoy my Thanksgiving dinner. Hope all of y'all have done or will be doing the same.
|By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-ta084.proxy.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Friday, November 24, 2000 - 02:07 am:|
Curt, by all means, join in! That's what helps us make sense of what's going on here:
the more perspectives we have with which to view the problem, the more likely we are to
arrive at some sort of consensus.
What it comes down to is four positions on this radian problem, as far as I can tell:
1) Z intended to construct a radian using three points, and this has absolutely nothing to do with a "buried bomb," which was nothing more than a ruse to begin with (Penn);
2) Z intended to construct a radian using three points, which might aid in locating the "buried bomb" (Gregorypraxas);
3) Z intended to construct a radian independent of the cipher solution that requires radian measure to locate the "buried bomb," and both exist simultaneously but otherwise have no particular relationship to each other (Curt);
4) Z never intended to construct a radian using three points, but the angle formed between two arbitrarily chosen murder sites and Mt. D. coincidentally happen to approximate one radian, while the radian measure needed to find the "buried bomb" has absolutely nothing to do with the incidental radian (Ed N.).
It is entirely possible that Z might have thought of constructing a radian for sh*ts and grins, using two points and Mt. D., one of which was out of sequence (BRS), to make it work. If so, I fail to see how that might help in locating a buried bomb, since that whole idea materialized many months after the last murder and the "construction" of the incidental radian.
Maybe Z did construct one, and then thought later on of using more radians as a guide to finding a bomb he buried, independent of the first one. Once again, I fail to see any reason to believe that he intended to construct one in the first place, since the points used to measure out that angle I still see as being arbitrarily chosen.
I won't even bother to address Penn's idea, because I think everyone knows what I think of him and anything he "theorizes."
Now, don't misunderstand me, it is always possible that Z had intended to do one of these things. But to divine that he intended to do so is like trying to divine the purpose behind his murder spree; he might have intended to construct a radian, but that's a long way from proving that was his intention. "Well, he killed five people, he used guns and a knife, and mentioned that he was collecting slaves for his afterlife, and so he must therefore be killing them for that reason!" Yes, Z murdered them, but that doesn't prove that he was really "collecting slaves," even though he said he was. I don't believe that Z believed that bogus reason any more than the police did.
I see the "intention to construct the radian" in the same way: "Well, he killed one at BRS, and one in PH, and mentioned radians in one letter and zeroed in on Mt. D, and so if we connect those three points, it proves that he intended to construct a radian!" Yes, Z murdered people there, and connecting those three points happens to form an angle approximating one radian, but that doesn't prove that he was trying to do so in the first place.
Anyway, this is another reason why I see the radian as nothing more than a coincidental artifact of Z's murder spree.
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (126.philadelphia01rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 184.108.40.206) on Friday, November 24, 2000 - 06:03 am:|
Consider also the point that the radian reference might not have had anything to do
with a buried bomb. The June letter states "The Map coupled with this code will tell
you where the bomb is set." The July "hint" states that "The Mt.
Diablo Code concerns Radians & #inches along the radians." It's quite possible
that the "hint" alludes only to the code, and not the position of the bomb; in
other words, it offers a hint as to the solution of the code.
Ciphers are manifestations of mathematical functions, and in this case the Mt. Diablo cipher might well have been based on functions involving geometry or calculus in which radians, not degrees, would be employed as measures of arc and angle.
|By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-td022.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Friday, November 24, 2000 - 10:55 am:|
It's quite possible that the "hint" alludes only to the code, and not the position of the bomb; in other words, it offers a hint as to the solution of the code. (italics mine)
Ciphers are manifestations of mathematical functions, and in this case the Mt. Diablo cipher might well have been based on functions involving geometry or calculus in which radians, not degrees, would be employed as measures of arc and angle. (italics mine)
Quite right, and the point I've been arguing all along... however, I'm not sure I follow what else you're saying. If the hint alludes to the code's solution, and if the map and code pinpoint the location of the "bomb," then how can the radian reference have nothing to do with the bomb's location if it is specifically tied to the code? Unless you mean that the code does not actually indicate its position (ie, "the bomb is buried on the west side of I-80 right by..."), but rather only how to find it on the map? If so, then we are in agreement on that point.
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (226.philadelphia01rh.16.pa.dial-access.att.net - 18.104.22.168) on Friday, November 24, 2000 - 01:42 pm:|
If the hint alludes to the code's solution, and if the map and code pinpoint the
location of the "bomb," then how can the radian reference have nothing to do
with the bomb's location if it is specifically tied to the code?
In point of fact you could argue that the hint would lead to the location of the bomb, assuming that it was intended to help with the code. But that would be an ancillary effect, I think.
|By Glen Claston (Glenclaston) (dialup-22.214.171.124.dallas1.level3.net - 126.96.36.199) on Monday, November 27, 2000 - 04:49 am:|
No folks, I'm not really lurking on the board. My wife has been following the
conversations for the last year, sharing my interest no doubt, and has become addicted, so
when she said "they're at it again", well, she read the thread to me while I was
trying to watch Babylon 5.
Ed N. is doing a very good job of defending logic against religious fervor, but for those of you who haven't caught on by now, let's review the facts yet once again.
1. We have a map, or more precisely, a map inset.
2. On this map there is a point drawn over the center of Mt. Diablo, and around this point, at compass points, are the markings "3 - 6 - 9 - 0".
3. To the right hand side of the "0" we have the words "is to be set to Mag. N.", which most people perceive to mean "0 is to be set to magnetic north".
4. We have a letter, saying that the Zodiac will use a bomb to destroy a school bus. In this letter he makes this comment: "The map coupled with this code will tell you where the bomb is set. You have untill next fall to dig it up."
5. We have a 32 character cipher written right underneath this statment in the same letter.
6. Later on, at the end of the "Little List" letter, we get the following statement: "The Mt. Diablo Code concerns Radians & # inches along the radians". I maintained Zodaic's own capitalization to illustrate that he points his emphasis toward the Code to find Radians, not toward the map as many would suggest.
7. Much much later, we have a guy who looks at the map and says "eureka!! - I've discovered the truth of it!", and goes on to publish his Zodiac Bible, finding many converts along the way. Now that this man's own actions have alienated him from the mainstream, the converts disavow him, but uphold his ideas without wishing them to be associated with his discolor, like Christians who aren't willing to part with the smallest part of their wealth, comfort or security but claim salvation just the same. So we won't invoke his name in this argument.
It's pretty easy to see on the time-line that before the question of radians ever came into the picture, there was a letter talking about a bomb, and a cipher that was to be coupled with a map to be used in discovering the location of the bomb.
With that in mind, everything hinged on the decipherment of the "Code". As I've demonstrated by emphasis, Zodiac's further instructions highlighted the Code in relation to Radians, not the map in relation to radians. Any analyst would observe that Zodiac's focus was on the Code, not the map.
Since we haven't yet read the code, let's look at the map by itself. It's an inset map covering a portion of the San Francisco Bay area. On Mt. Diablo, there is a mark presumed to be the center for all measurements, and around that mark are the markings "3 - 6 - 9 - 0". We also have the reference that the 0 is to be set to magnetic north. The markings 3,6,9, and 0 are not compass markings, but markings from the face of a clock. These do equate to angles, but then again, so does anything else in a 3-dimensional world, or even a 2-dimensional map. Questions arise as to why the time-piece markings in conjunction with the Zodiac theme, but we'll leave those alone for now.
At this point in time, there are no radians or inches along radians, only a map with specific markings and a 32 character cipher, all supposedly relating to the location of a bomb. Zodiac added an extra thought, stating that the zero was to be aligned with magnetic north.
It's pretty obvious from the later message and Zodiac's focus on the Code that he was upset it hadn't been solved. This means he thought it Should have been solved and Could have been solved, and had to give an extra hint on how to solve it. This means that Zodiac felt he had given enough information in the map to help the solvers out, and was frustrated that they didn't flash on what he was trying to say.
Let's ignore the fact that this is all about a bomb, just for those who do ignore this fact on a religiously regular basis. His three hints on the map, long before the radian remark, were these:
1. Use Mt. Diablo as the center.
2. Count around as a clock and not in degrees. (Meaning - I'm going to say 8 instead of 240 degrees, just for brevity.)
3. Use magnetic north and not the true north of the map.
Throw out all arguments of "radians" for now because they haven't happened yet. What I've laid out to you is exactly what you have to go on and nothing more. Let that sink in for a moment so there's no misunderstanding.
Now that you've grasped that concept, add the later comment on "radians and inches along the radians". Add those comments as a further hint - Don't take those comments as a separate whim and intention from what Zodiac had already created and laid out. Add them to what he has already chronologically presented and reconcile the statement with your already known facts. If you do this you'll find that the question is not "which came first, the chicken or the egg", but rather which came first, the magnetic north or the radian?
We can pick any arbitrary point on the inset map and draw approximate radians through other points to our hearts' desire, but if we do, is this an exercise in scientific research, or is it just something to occupy our minds and our time? Do we have any piece of information that says we must extend this imaginary and approximate "radian" beyond the inset map as the proponents of this theory must do to make it the least bit meaningful, or does the solution actually lie in the material at hand?
Each of you has to be your own judge, not only judging what you accept as truth, but what you set as your standards of proof. The "radians" comment did not materialize until well after the map and the cipher were in place, and they by themselves should have been considered and solved as a unit. The "radian" remark was an added bonus and clue, but only a clue to the existing evidence, and to be considered in the context of the existing evidence.
The preexisting evidence identified only one location to be considered, not multiple locations. It used Mt. Diablo as the center, not multiple points. It used time-piece notation versus degrees. It used magnetic north as the zero reference. Any radian "discovery" has to reconcile itself to the given facts set out before the "radians" remark to be considered.
The "radian" remark did not come before the map, the cipher, or the information on the bomb. It is not a stand-alone holy grail and it does not rise above and beyond all other existing evidence.
There are those who will continue to put forth the "radian theory" as a stand-alone idea, completely divorced from the prior evidence, and as we've seen, even divorced from the person who imagined the radian in the first place. There's nothing I can do about that and there's nothing at this point I would try to do about that. For some people it's easier to waste their time and effort "convincing" through argument than it is to spend their time doing the hard research and problem solving that leads to actual solution and hard proof.
There is a way of applying a mental filter to discern this type of person and avoid them. I could do one of my newsgroup searches and quantify each and every claim made by that person, then quantify each and every caveat or disclaimer that person issues. When it is summed up, I usually discover that each and every challenged "fact" put forth by the claimant has been disclaimed, as is the case with some of the "radian theory" proponents. If all the facts have been disclaimed but the theory is still put forward, was it a valid theory in the first place, and if not, what was the motivation for putting it forward? For some people the only motivation they need is the sake of argument.
Don't be upset if I'm not drawn into any arguments about this post - I believe I've made my position crystal clear and I for one will not be withdrawing any of my observations without a sound and fact-based presentation that encompasses and reasonably explains all the known facts. And as to the question of which came first, the chicken or the egg? Since logically the egg must have contained the mutation that led to the chicken, the egg must have necessarily come first. What laid the egg was not quite chicken. Argue that one for awhile.
|By Curt Rowlett (Curt) (188.8.131.52) on Monday, November 27, 2000 - 02:12 pm:|
Just for clarification purposes in the debate here, my "chicken or the egg"
comment, as stated in my post above, was intended only as a hypothetical and not to be
taken as anything more than that.
My only other comment is that because I don't really understand the comparisons being made above to some sort of religious fervor, I'll reserve my thoughts on that one for now.
|By Curt Rowlett (Curt) (184.108.40.206) on Monday, November 27, 2000 - 02:51 pm:|
Ed.N. wrote: "3) Z intended to construct a radian independent of the cipher
solution that requires radian measure to locate the "buried bomb," and both
exist simultaneously but otherwise have no particular relationship to each other
Excellent post and summation of the existing ideas so far! My only clarification to the above would be as follows:
3) Z intended to construct a radian independent of the cipher solution that requires radian measure to locate the "buried bomb," and both exist simultaneously but MAY or MAY NOT have a particular relationship to each other. (Curt).
Hope I'm not being too "picky" but wanted to clarify anyway!
|By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-tc083.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Tuesday, November 28, 2000 - 12:18 am:|
Picky, picky... lol... good clarification. I hadn't thought of that, and it sounds like a better way of stating it anyway.
|By Twagner129 (Twagner129) (spider-to075.proxy.aol.com - 18.104.22.168) on Wednesday, November 29, 2000 - 09:07 am:|
Wow, I've been trying to wade thru all the Radian information and now have a huge headache! I have 4 questions and I will make them simple. Has anyone checked to see if there are any unsolved murders in the direction of Radians going in OTHER directions than those of the presently suspected Zodiac murders? Does the Lake Tahoe Donna Lass case fall on a Radian? Do any of the Unibomber cases fall on Radians?
|By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-tc021.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Wednesday, November 29, 2000 - 02:44 pm:|
Twagner: the radians have to be measured from some point of origin. For instance, my
position is that one must actually follow Z's clues, such that if the code were
deciphered, it would indicate how many radians (arc measure) must be counted out in a
clockwise fashion around Mt D (as suggested by the "clockface" drawn around Mt
D, with a 0 instead of a 12), probably starting at magnetic north as Z hinted. Thus, we
have a starting point, and a terminus, along which a certain number of inches specified in
the code must be measured from the center. Thus, the code, map and hints have absolutely
nothing to do with murder sites, but locating a "buried bomb" just as Z claimed.
Now, to ignore what Z specifically said and to try to locate murder sites using radians in classic Penn fashion, which is completely arbitrary (linking BRS and PH) you still need a starting site and a terminus in order to do so. And so the answers to your three questions (was there supposed to be a fourth, or was that a typo?) are basically: no. Unless you arbitrarily choose to draw a line through Tahoe for Donna Lass (Stateline, Incline Village or South Lake Tahoe, take your pick, whichever one works) and measure one single radian (which Z never said to do) to either side and look to see if any unsolved murder sites line up. That's what Penn did, and it still didn't work as far as I'm concerned.
|By Glen Claston (Glenclaston) (dialup-126.96.36.199.dallas1.level3.net - 188.8.131.52) on Thursday, November 30, 2000 - 01:28 am:|
Twagner: the radians have to be measured from some point of
origin. For instance, my position is that one must actually follow Z's clues, such that if
the code were deciphered, it would indicate how many radians (arc measure) must be counted
out in a clockwise fashion around Mt D (as suggested by the "clockface" drawn
around Mt D, with a 0 instead of a 12), probably starting at magnetic north as Z hinted.
Thus, we have a starting point, and a terminus, along which a certain number of inches
specified in the code must be measured from the center. Thus, the code, map and hints have
absolutely nothing to do with murder sites, but locating a "buried bomb" just as
Ed, good interpretation of the facts. Let's not forget the significance of the mention of "inches" however, inches being a variable that applies directly to the function - "scale" - when applied to a map, my primary reason for not wishing to go beyond the inset map.
Inset maps do not have the same scale as the map they are "inset" into, so when you measure inches on the main map versus the inset map, you wind up with two entirely different locations. I don't know for sure, but it appears that the inset map covers a broader area than the main map, probably a necessity for the Zodiac. It would be nice to know for sure.
My point here is this - if someone arbitrarily chooses to use a different map from the one given without knowledge of what was intended, their results would be useless. Extending imaginary radians beyond the area this map encompasses is contrary to the evidence presented and just plain bad investigatory practice. IF the radian theory presented convincing radian evidence that stayed within the bounds of the inset map I would be looking at it very closely and looking for numbers within the cipher that correspond to the evidence. As it is, the radian theory grants itself artistic license that competent researchers cannot afford to take.
I could use a little clarification on whether the inset was smaller or larger than the main map. If anyone knows specifically, the exact scales of both maps would be extremely helpful so I may render electronic versions for anyone wishing to post them.
I remember seeing the television program that had Penn sitting at his computer with computer maps and radians drawn on it, claiming that these radians intersected "EXACTLY" through the points he says they do. If nothing else, Gregorypraxas proved that Penn's claim of "exactness" was "PRECISELY" overstated.
|By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-ta061.proxy.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Thursday, November 30, 2000 - 10:00 am:|
Glen, I suspect that Z did not just intend for us to use the inset map, but that he used it as well (ie, a copy of it) to plot the location of the "buried bomb." I understand what you mean by the scale on the main map versus the inset map, but since radian measure is not normally used for common road maps, I think we can safely assume that scale is not what Z had in mind either. In other words, Z may not have meant inches relating to scale to give a number of miles from Mt. D, but inches measured on the map along the terminus of the radian that would intersect with a road/freeway of some sort. That's how I've understood it anyway, for whatever it's worth.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p176.as1.virginia1.eircom.net - 220.127.116.11) on Thursday, November 30, 2000 - 11:44 pm:|
You may have to excuse me as I havent paid this subject much attention in the past
also Iam not famaliar with the area or the amount of schools.
But if we know the know the general topographic
type of area your looking for.Hills to the west along an isolated stretch of road,two lane traffic with a bus travelling due south to the school.Would this not help confine the search to a smaller area.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p109.as2.dungarvan1.eircom.net - 18.104.22.168) on Friday, December 01, 2000 - 12:54 pm:|
OOPS! Know the Know,sorry just out of bed.
|By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 22.214.171.124) on Sunday, December 03, 2000 - 10:06 pm:|
I can think of many areas like this in the bay area as well as the Tahoe area. The road coming from Napa towards Vallejo has hills to the west, it was a two lane road. From Richmond to SanJose the hills are to the west if you are going south. The only suspect I have in that area who is a Bruce Davis look alike, is R.H. a friend to L. Kane. I believe the picture is the area of the bomb. He drew it, because he said if he took a picture of it, it would get traced back to him.I believe he was truthful most of the time.He seems to detest lies.
|By Spencer (Spencer) (ac90d8f4.ipt.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Tuesday, December 12, 2000 - 04:48 pm:|
As to the far earlier (and less pertinent) question, Gareth Penn's middle name is
SEWELL. He was born January 1, 1941 in Monterey County, California to a mother with the
maiden name of SMITH. It's amazing what you can find on the web.
The state of California has all birth records in the state between 1905 and 1995 online, including (in most cases) first, middle, and last names, as well as the maiden names of the mothers. It's available at the following url, http://userdb.rootsweb.com/ca/birth/search.cgi
I love research.
|By Chalandra (Chalandra) (tsway4-28.gate.net - 188.8.131.52) on Tuesday, December 12, 2000 - 06:42 pm:|
I don't know anything about radians and ciphers, but I have an idea that I would like to run across ya'll. I am thinking Zodiac dropped the watch on purpose so it could be used like this:
Put the center of the watch over Mt. Diablo, then mark off 12 minutes after and then 24 minutes after and then divide those in half. I came out with Morgan Preserve doing it this way.
Remember, this is just an idea since all else has failed so far. If it can't be done, then tell me. Please don't call me names like others have on this board.
|By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-tb033.proxy.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Tuesday, December 12, 2000 - 11:49 pm:|
Chalandra: about the only way you can earn a name here is to say or intimate something
along the lines of, "I've solved it! This is how you fools need to look
at things..." You don't come across as that at all (not to me anyway), so don't worry
In the meantime, I'm curious as to why you would suggest marking off 12 then 24 minutes and dividing in half. Please elucidate...
|By Chalandra (Chalandra) (tsway1-69.du.gate.net - 220.127.116.11) on Wednesday, December 13, 2000 - 03:38 am:|
I was going by the time on the watch. Some say the watch says 12:24 and some say it says 12:23, so take your pick.
What was on Morgan Regional Territory Preserve back
then or just around the area?
|By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-ta022.proxy.aol.com - 18.104.22.168) on Wednesday, December 13, 2000 - 09:31 am:|
I figured that's what you meant, but wanted to be sure. It looks to read approximately
12:23 (I actually measured the angles of the hands at one point to calculate).
The only way your theory can work is if, as you said, it was left at the scene of the crime by Z. If so, then your idea is entirely possible, but it means that Z was planning something with Mt. D. nearly four years before the map was sent to the Chronicle.
However, the current thought is that "Bob Barnett" was the perp, and Z claimed the crime as his own, possibly as a sort of "practice run" for his crimes in the Bay Area starting two years later.
In any case, I'll have to have a look at a map myself to see what you're saying. I don't know what was there back then.
|By Hurley (Hurley) (spider-tf023.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Saturday, December 16, 2000 - 12:59 pm:|
I have spoken to Jake about that watch, asking if it had ever been fingerprinted. I'm sure it probably never was.
|By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (ac80a104.ipt.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Saturday, December 16, 2000 - 03:03 pm:|
Of course RPD checked the watch for prints.
They also analyzed the paint splotches.
|By Jake Wark (Jake) (spider-wg031.proxy.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Saturday, December 16, 2000 - 05:01 pm:|
"Of course RPD checked the watch for prints.
They also analyzed the paint splotches."
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."
|By Hurley (Hurley) (spider-tf054.proxy.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Sunday, December 17, 2000 - 07:57 am:|
That's interesting. So who did the prints match? I would have suspected that would have solved that case a long time ago.
|By Tom Voigt (Tomvoigt) (ac8b6c9c.ipt.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Sunday, December 17, 2000 - 11:11 am:|
Hurley, since the watch belonged to the killer, don't you think they would have made
an arrest had they been able to lift any prints? Obviously, no prints were lifted.
Jake, the paint was very common house paint. In fact, at the time, Barnett was working at an apartment complex, but couldn't be linked to any recent painting.
|By Esau (Esau) (1cust193.tnt3.sacramento2.ca.da.uu.net - 18.104.22.168) on Sunday, December 17, 2000 - 12:04 pm:|
I must have missed something. Is Barnett the ex boyfriend of Cheri Jo Bates'? Can you give a little bit of history on this "Barnett" person?
|By Jake Wark (Jake) (spider-tj022.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Sunday, December 17, 2000 - 01:03 pm:|
Esau, try http://www.zodiackiller.com/BatesDNA.html.
"This is the Zodiac Speaking..."
|By Hurley (Hurley) (spider-mtc-ti024.proxy.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Sunday, December 17, 2000 - 06:09 pm:|
Tom, that's exactly what I would have thought but since I've never heard where they did fingerprint the watch, I assumed it was never done.
|By Curt (Curt) (1cust243.tnt3.krk1.da.uu.net - 188.8.131.52) on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 07:00 am:|
I am trying to post a notice for the author of the original "Chasing the
Radian" thread to get in touch with me, but for some reason, his name comes up as
"profanity detected in post" when I try to post a notice! Has he been banned
from here or is his name a new form of dirty word or something?
Anyone who knows how to get in contact with "he who cannot be named on Zodiackiller.com" please let me know! Thanks.
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (173.philadelphia01rh.16.pa.dial-access.att.net - 184.108.40.206) on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 04:02 pm:|
Curt, are you referring to Michael Butter*****? If so, try KKOJAK@aol.com.
Michael was banned from Tom's board some time ago for some kind of apostasy (can't remember exactly what). A word of warning: he doesn't suffer fools gladly, so be sure your questions are of the intelligent variety.
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (spider-mtc-td062.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 05:56 pm:|
He flipped his lid when I posted his e-mail address some months ago. Apparently, he expects everyone else to have the guts to back up their posts, but he never had the balls to do so...hence the alias and lack of e-mail address.
|By Curt (Curt) (1cust198.tnt9.krk1.da.uu.net - 18.104.22.168) on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 05:57 pm:|
Doug: Thanks for the tip (and I'll try not to act like a sufferin' fool! Someone must
have sent "he who cannot be named on Zodiackiller.com" notice that I was asking
for him as the persona-non-grata in question emailed me today).
Thanks for your help,
|By Joe (Joe) (adsl-63-204-75-203.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net - 22.214.171.124) on Friday, August 24, 2001 - 10:46 am:|
While watching the TLC program on Zodiac the other night, something intrigued me about
the radian theory. The radian theory indicates that Zodiac had a map, drew radians to
specific points, then killed people at those locations. Although I have never been a
proponent of the idea that Zodiac mapped out his murders in this way, it struck me that I
had seen similar thinking in extremely paranoid schizophrenics. Elaborate drawings
relating to the universe and the earth that made perfect sense to them but absolutely none
to those fortunate enough not to suffer from the disease. These were people who had been
institutionalized for their malady. Perhaps Zodiac was similarly affected. A mental
patient who killed only on weekends when he was allowed out for visitation. I know the
police explored this angle to no end.
If there is any truth to this, none of the suspects fits the profile, as Zodiac would have to be so ill as to either be institutionalized, or be cared for in a home situation. His illness would have been obvious.
Again, this is only speculation on my part and I don't embrace it wholeheartedly. I still think Allen is the best suspect. But it does make one wonder about the concept of the radian.
|By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ntc-ta022.proxy.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Friday, August 24, 2001 - 03:28 pm:|
Such was the case with The Cleveland Torso Murders.
|By Ryan Olesin (Ryan) (d141-193-74.home.cgocable.net - 188.8.131.52) on Friday, August 24, 2001 - 07:37 pm:|
I think that may have been part of his game just like the ciphers that the police/public had to figure out. By him arranging these murders to fit some sort of pattern was another way he made everyone else spend time trying to figure out his pattern.
|By Bookworm (Bookworm) (ro02-24-29-217-79.ce.mediaone.net - 184.108.40.206) on Saturday, August 25, 2001 - 07:02 am:|
Since this man chose the name Zodiac, could the radians have something to do with the
zodiac constellations themselves.
Zodiac came from the Greek meaning "circle of animals."
Has anyone checked the positions of the x for each murder with the date and constellation for that date?
I don't know a lot about astrology, and this idea may have been offered already. I'm new.
Also, freemasons and Knights of Columbus use degrees for levels in their societies.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-17.linkline.com - 220.127.116.11) on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 02:55 am:|
Welcome!Please check the old posts for the topics you mention.I have studied Astrology and have a professional I consult regarding the Zodiac crimes and dates, etc.The Penn Radian Theory holds interest for me only in that two of the bisections go through-at least according to his calculations-Death Valley and London,England ,both places of great interest to my suspect/s.
Penns remarks about the 13 holes Zodiac punched in his (10/5/70)postcard is of interest to me as he quotes from the Beatles song A Day In The Life(B Day? My guy 10/5 same as postcard)."And though the holes[victims? Z's view]were rather[where have I read "rather"?]they[the public/police?]had to count them all...Two[Davis/Manson?] of us sending letters and POSTCARDS...and... Nobody knows just we two."Two other Beatles songs are Fixing A Hole and Sea of Holes.See lyrics.M/D followed Beatles lyrics to initiate their Revolution.
A note: the 'small holes 'reference.This was a small number of victims (hey, he was just warming up!13 the occult number)but because of the nature of the crimes the police/public 'had to count or note them all.'My FYI speculations.
To me it was interesting that Penn saw a possible connection to the Beatles or that they were an inspiration to Z.
The reference to Alice in Wonderland Penn made surprised me when I read his article some years ago as this was one story that was used in the Process and Scientology two organizations my guys were into.
This post was just a general to you and the Board.I went way beyond your inquiry-sorry.It's all FYI...
|By Eduard (Eduard) (s340-isdn1260.dial.xs4all.nl - 18.104.22.168) on Monday, September 03, 2001 - 03:48 am:|
Howard, About the Beatles.
In the animated movie about them called: "yellow submarine" the villains are "Blue Meanies".
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (165.philadelphia08rh.16.pa.dial-access.att.net - 22.214.171.124) on Monday, September 03, 2001 - 07:02 am:|
According to one resident of the area, "[I]n Berkeley during the 60's the
was a slang term for the Alameda County Shririff's [sic] Deputies. When they
are on riot control duty they wear a distinctive light blue jump suit."
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (165.philadelphia08rh.16.pa.dial-access.att.net - 126.96.36.199) on Monday, September 03, 2001 - 07:05 am:|
In reference to the above, see:
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-62.linkline.com - 188.8.131.52) on Sunday, September 09, 2001 - 09:40 pm:|
Eduard:Yes,it's in my book.And the police ,in some cases,were called Blue Meannies because of the Beatles song/movie.