Was there a "Z team?"
Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Theories: Was there a "Z team?"
|By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-td044.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 04:36 pm:|
OK, a new thread to discuss the multiple perp theory for the Z crimes...
|By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wl011.proxy.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 05:20 pm:|
Okay, I'm coming back to this case after a fairly lengthy period of shutting it out of
my head. I've studied the Penn/O'Hare folie-a-deux at GREAT length and while I'm not yet
convinced there isn't something there, the case for Arthur Leigh Allen is awfully good.
Lawrence Kane is clearly one really twisted character and sure does look the part.
Is there any possibility of interaction between any of these four characters during the time frame of Z's activities? Is it possible that the author of the letters and the perp are two different people? Could there be more than one perp? What is the possibility of a copycat working at the same time?
It is awfully interesting how the descriptions match ALA and LK, on different occasions. The addition of the unsolved case from 63 sweetens the pot. Where was LK then? Matching ALA's moves with LK's might yield something interesting.
I wouldn't be too quick to rule out some level of involvement from Penn and/or O'Hare, but just what that involvement might consist of is anybody's guess. Those two characters really do take it "down the rabbit hole." But maybe that's the idea.
The essence of sleight of hand is misdirection. Maybe by looking for a single perp, we're missing something. It's all speculation. Let's see where it leads.
And, as the Firesign Theatre once said, "Keep it sweet, Pete."
|By Hurley (Hurley) (spider-mtc-tb071.proxy.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 05:34 pm:|
Alanc I do agree. I think Kane may have been acquainted with Allen however, I believe Allen was very familiar with Kane.
|By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wj034.proxy.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 07:50 pm:|
Whoever Z was, I have no doubt that he was loony enough and smart enough to throw a
red herring into the mix. In fact, that's been my theory regarding the initials
"rh" on the desktop poem all along.
What leads you to believe that ALA was aware of Kane, Hurley?
|By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-ta084.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 09:49 pm:|
Alan, that's assuming that the poem even has anything to do with CJB. Someone (I don't recall who, it's been many months) pointed out that the desktop poem sounds more like a failed suicide than a homicide. It may be coincidence that it was inscribed on that desk at about the same time as the murder.
|By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wn042.proxy.aol.com - 18.104.22.168) on Thursday, January 04, 2001 - 10:50 pm:|
That's a damned good point, Ed. As I once did a musical adaptation of that poem, I
have it committed to memory, and now that you mention it, it DOES read like a suicide
"She won't die, this time
Someone'll find her"
THAT doesn't sound like a murder message.
|By Ed N. (Edn) (spider-ntc-ta024.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Friday, January 05, 2001 - 12:14 am:|
Alan, that's the one thing that's always bothered me about that poem since I first read Zodiac eight years ago. It never really sounded like it was relevant to CJB at all.
|By Peterh (Peterh) (adsl-141-154-81-230.bostma.adsl.bellatlantic.net - 126.96.36.199) on Friday, January 05, 2001 - 06:27 am:|
Sheesh: first day of a brand new thread, and alrady we've gone from multiple perps to
the Riverside poem interpretation. Back on the multi-perp theories, I would definitely
focus on the LB discrepancies. Start with the two radically different but roughly equally
credible composite drawings and eyewit descriptions of the Berryessa and SF responsibles.
Then move on to the significally different MOs and personation for (1) BRS and LHR, (2)
LB, and (3) SF. Continue with the inside knowledge of and clear and repeated claims of
responsibility for LHR, BRS and SF as compared with the complete lack of any claim for or
even mention of LB. What have you got?
Team Z in '03!
|By Bruce Monson (The_Adversary) (csd140.bvi3.cos.pcisys.net - 188.8.131.52) on Friday, January 05, 2001 - 10:16 am:|
Woops! I really meant to post the following message under the Z-Team header (to be on
topic), so here it is:
Can you present a list of reasons that can be sourced on this board that might suggest the involvement of more than one person in the perpetration of these crimes? I'm just getting back into this case, casually, and I'm also pretty busy with something else right now.
Here's a few good reasons off the top of my head:
(1) None of the *primary* suspects match any of the latent prints that have been gathered, either from the Stine murder or, obviously, the letters sent by "Z". But not only that, these prints DO belong to someone! Who? Or better, how many people?
(2) Conflicting descriptions of "Z" at "Z" crime scenes, e.g., height, weight, age, hair color, hair style, etc.
(3) Different M.O.'s with different weapons.
(4) The *favorite* suspect (among police agencies), ALA, shows a lot of circumstantial evidence, but not a shred of physical evidence has ever placed him at any known "Z" crime scene or attached him to any known Zodiac literature. This is of significantly higher importance than I think many are willing to admit! The hardest thing for investigators in serial killer cases to do is to actually identify a primary suspect, but once they do find them the forensic confirmations will usually follow rather quickly. Granted, forensic science has come a long way in the last thirty years, but not that far, and considering the sheer volume of evidence we have from the "Z" crimes/letters, et.al., it is inconceivable that any one person, once identified, WOULD NOT be able to be linked to one or more of those pieces of evidence. We simply don't have the volume of material on the *other* suspects (whether identified publicly or not) that we do on Allen, and yet after 30 years of focus on him no one has been able to link him to ANY of these crimes. I find that remarkably remarkable. If Allen was involved at all (and all things considered, I think that's a big "if"), he most likely wasn't working alone.
Hope that this helps,
|By Gomper (Gomper) (slip-32-103-46-165.al.us.prserv.net - 184.108.40.206) on Friday, January 05, 2001 - 11:41 am:|
Concerning the desktop poem at Riverside(and I guess this is something that has been looked into already), did any of the major suspects have female friends or relatives who attempted suicide around this time?
|By Alanc (Alanc) (spider-wn051.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Friday, January 05, 2001 - 04:07 pm:|
I just reviewed the LHR, BRS, and LB attacks as described here at Tom's site. LHR and
BRS certainly could be ALA, and the Napa composite drawing sure does look like Kane.
Interestingly, I'd either forgotten or overlooked the possibility of some sort of drug involvement in the Faraday-Jensen case. This is not something that should be dismissed lightly.
|By Chalandra (Chalandra) (tsway1-118.du.gate.net - 18.104.22.168) on Saturday, January 06, 2001 - 06:02 am:|
How did all of these people become suspects? Would it have started that if they looked like the description of Zodiac, they could be taken in for finger printing as well as to collect handwriting samples? Did these suspects have to some kind of evidence linking them to Zodiac before the police could do anything to them? What is the procedure?
|By Tony (Mahalo) (1cust123.tnt1.wailuku.hi.da.uu.net - 22.214.171.124) on Thursday, March 01, 2001 - 02:34 pm:|
Is there any evidence that Allen,Kane,Jim(Darlene's 1st husband),Walker,& Bruce Davis Knew each other?Any 2,3, or all 5?
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-120.linkline.com - 126.96.36.199) on Friday, March 02, 2001 - 01:12 am:|
Tony- This is one of my missions as I believe there was more than one person involved.Manson knew people in Vallejo and Bencia and ,of course, S.F.and Sacramento .Manson and some of his followers were staying in the outskirts of Sacramento December 1968-they left during the last part of the month.Vincent Bugliosi was "amazed at the large number of people Manson knew."One former member told a reporter that he knew from the Family that there had been "many more murders than the police know of" and that "the Family is a whole lot larger than you think."Off camera Sandra Good said the Family killed"thirty to 40 people".I think of Zodiac's boast of 37 victims-right in the ball park of Good's estimate !
|By Esau (Esau) (proxy2-external.scrmnt1.ca.home.com - 188.8.131.52) on Friday, March 02, 2001 - 06:27 am:|
Some people in Sacramento say that for a for a couple of weeks back in 1967 Manson and few others stayed with a friend in an apartment complex on Watt Ave near Marconi. It's the same apartment building that Richard Trenton Chase (the Sacramento vampire killer) lived in.
|By Sandy (Sandy) (c531918-a.ptbrg1.sfba.home.com - 184.108.40.206) on Friday, March 02, 2001 - 10:34 am:|
Esau, I think it was you who wanted to know the name of the cannibal killer? His name was Stanley Dean Baker, and he is out of jail!
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (spider-ntc-tc044.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Thursday, May 03, 2001 - 04:51 pm:|
It seemed appropriate to post here, since the wannabe Z investigator and publisher of The
Napa Sentinel, Harry Martin, opined that the reason Z was never caught was because he
was really a "team" of sorts.
Anyway, Harry Martin's rag just published it's 1,000th edition on April 27th (believe it or not!). It was established in 1985, and Volume 1, #1 was published on September 20th. How it managed to last this long, considering his "investigative" prowess (his Z theory is a laugh) and the fact that it's really nothing more than The Napa Enquirer, is beyond me.
What caught my attention was not just his self-aggrandizement, or his loquaciousness about all the things he did for the betterment of Napa, or his pat on the back for prophesying "the conversion of Napa State Hospital into a locked forensic institution... 10 years before it happened even down to the height of the towers and barbed wire" ("Thousands of articles," p. 1), but rather the following statement, which appears on page 12 under "Thousands of articles":
... the Sentinel caused new focus on the 25-year-old Zodiac case (italics mine) after printing a 17-part series naming names - it gained nationwide attention and a new search warrant - the Sentinel was threatened with a lawsuit by one of the individuals named in the newspaper (Robert E. Hunter Jr.) but a suit was never filed...
Is this guy serious? Who does he think he's kidding? Hardly anyone outside Napa reads his rag, and I'm surprised he didn't destroy what was left of the case with his ludicrous "theory" that painted Larry Kane, Bruce Davis, Danny Price and Paul Petri as the "Zodiac" killers, while Robert Hunter Jr. wrote the letters to confuse the poor, overworked and clueless police. Even though there is no proof, he thought that the Z murders were for profit, ie, Donna Lass was going to inherit Hunter Sr's money, and Hunter Jr. had Kane kill her to prevent that, thus making her the focus of the Z murders, even though there is no proof Z had anything to do with her disappearance.
Anyway, I just had to vent a little, and remind everyone that this guy and his theory is not to be taken seriously.
P.S. The guy who supplied Martin with his information on Hunter was none other than Carl's dad, Ed (no relation to me!). Even more reason to take Martin's "theory" with a pound (a grain wouldn't be enough) of salt...
|By Ed N. (Ed_N) (pluto.cds1.net - 18.104.22.168) on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 10:46 pm:|
Something interesting to note: way back in September 1978, according to Graysmith (for whatever it's worth; Zodiac, pp. 228-229), Sherwood Morrill apparently originally suggested the two-perp theory. His idea involved Rick Marshall and "Wallace Penny." Considering that the recent DNA analysis has appeared to rule Allen out, but SFPD has been reluctant to eliminate him as a suspect, one must wonder if they are seriously considering the two-perp theory (as Mike Maloney suggested in an interview last week, mentioned in Zodiac Media: Zodiac on KPIX and KTVU News 10-14-02 on Tuesday, October 15, 2002 - 01:44 am. Thus, in this theory, presumably Allen was doing the killing, while an as-yet unidentified co-conspirator wrote the letters and sealed the envelopes/licked the stamps.
|By William Baker (Bill_Baker) (lsanca1-ar16-4-47-008-191.lsanca1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net - 22.214.171.124) on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 10:57 pm:|
Who, then, penned the message on the Ghia?
|By Ed N. (Ed_N) (pluto.cds1.net - 126.96.36.199) on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 11:19 pm:|
If Allen wore the hood, perhaps the letter-writer was along for the ride and waiting in the car or watching the proceedings from the ridge across the little bay. Since Hartnell didn't see Z arrive or leave, how do we know that he was the only one in the car? Since the letter-writer was there by chance or design, he tagged the car while Z was getting out of his blood-soaked costume. It's just a thought...
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-139-118.client.attbi.com - 188.8.131.52) on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 11:34 pm:|
The problem with that theory is there was only one set of footprints at Lake B...
|By William Baker (Bill_Baker) (lsanca1-ar16-4-47-005-056.lsanca1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net - 184.108.40.206) on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 11:09 am:|
Ed, as I think I've stated in times past, an investigator should always endeavor to
follow the evidence in pursuit of the identity of the criminal, and not fall into the
all-too-human practice of creating theories against which the evidence is then tested.
Fond as I am of analogies, it would be like putting together a jigsaw puzzle without
benefit of a finished illustration as a guide, trying to fit the pieces together based on
a preconceived notion of what the picture is supposed to be. However . . .
There comes a point after sufficient time and effort at developing the evidence has failed to yield definitive answers and the criminal remains at large, when traditional strategies should be liberalized. I think more than three decades, without demonstrable success, would place the Z series into this category. I'm not saying that the modern advances in forensic science will not eventually provide a solution to this mystery based on the evidence, or that within the known items of evidence the answer is waiting to be uncovered, but speaking generically, I do think that it would be appropriate in this case to let the tail wag the dog -- to formulate theories that encompass and integrate the evidence into a cohesive, coherent and cogent explanation of what happened and perhaps by whom.
Having said all that, I think that a theory, such as multiple suspects, should be explored, not because there promises to be any particular credibility of validity to it, but because it affords the opportunity for the theory to be tested against the evidence. In this process, even here on this board, the free exchange of opinions and knowledge of the evidence can either lend support or serve to refute the practicality of the theory. This has been the mainstay of the board all along, and I think every one of us has gained wisdom in the process.
Nothing new here, just restating the obvious, from my perspective.
|By Ed N. (Ed_N) (acad4d8e.ipt.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 04:28 pm:|
Mind you, I've never put much stock in the two-perp theory, but since SFPD seems to be considering it, I thought I'd mention it. Thanks for pointing out LB, Bill, and Tom's correct, if there was only one set of footprints connected with Z (presumably, NSD found both Hartnell's and Shepard's footprints and eliminated those as belonging to the perp), then there is definitely a problem with that theory. What I'm wondering is, if SFPD's even thinking there's a possibility that there were two involved, how will they explain away LB? Perhaps it wasn't Allen in that instance, but the presumed unidentified letter writer who was the perp.
|By William Baker (Bill_Baker) (lsanca1-ar16-4-47-005-056.lsanca1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net - 18.104.22.168) on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 04:57 pm:|
Good point, Ed. If Z was a plurality, which I'm not inclined to accept at this stage, perhaps they even acted in tag-team fashion, which would not only account for the differing suspect descriptions, but also why DNA and fingerprints have thus far failed to identify the donor. Grasping at straws, to be sure, but it's a nice change of pace.
|By Ray N (Ray_N) (sdn-ap-007scfairp0478.dialsprint.net - 22.214.171.124) on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 05:12 pm:|
Det. Baker is right. This theory probably should be explored. If nothing else, it
might be eliminated as possible.
Putting on my investigator's cap, I'd say this brings the handwriting on the Ghia strongly into play. Since the bootprints prove that the person who did the writing also did the killing, if it could be conclusively determined that the writing on the car matches the writing from known Z letters then we would be able to conclusively say, by a simple process (A=B, B=C, therefore A=C), that the LB killer also wrote the Zodiac letters and was therefore Zodiac.
This would fell the LB Zodiac Copycat theory with one stroke. Since we also know that BRS and PH were done solo, and there is no evidence whatever that I'm aware of indicating the presence anyone except Jensen, Faraday, and Zodiac at LHR, that would pretty well wrap it up for the "Team Z" theory as well, IMO.
Of course, as I've been saying quite a bit lately, "anythinghay ishay ossiblepay".
|By Alan Cabal (Alan_Cabal) (126.96.36.199) on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 07:23 pm:|
Contrary-wise on certain points here, nobody really knows how many were at LHR, at BRS
there could very well have been another in the perp's car (in the back, for instance), and
I'd like to know exactly where the bootprints were found at LB.
And again, as I've raised before, if the letter writer and the perp were two different people working together, that would account for a lot of the twisted ambiguity of this case.
Ever see Hitchcock's ROPE, or have any familiarity with the Loeb/Leopold case it was based on? That sort of thing.
Bill, your wisdom regarding life in general is remarkable. Your kind of cop is why I'm a pro-cop journalist. You go at it like a priest. It's inspiring.
|By William Baker (Bill_Baker) (lsanca1-ar16-4-47-005-056.lsanca1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net - 188.8.131.52) on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 10:12 pm:|
Alan, an unexpected but appreciated comment. Thank you. Now, if you could just dispense with all of the ideological ad hominen socio-political commentary, and apply your incisive thinking to matters Zodiac, you and I might become soulmates. Just kidding, but it would benefit this board significantly.
|By Alan Cabal (Alan_Cabal) (184.108.40.206) on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 11:29 pm:|
Yeah, well, the socio-political front worries me a great deal more than the idea of
O'Hare & Penn doing ROPE 30 years ago. I'm scared, Bill, and I'm not afraid to admit
it. Not of Zodiac, I can handle him/her/it/them. I carry a boxcutter, I started carrying
it in 1992, when I quit packing heat.
I never dreamed that the boxcutter would catch on the way it has.
Anyway, back on topic (ahem), the "Team Z" thing has had a lot of appeal to me all along owing to my early fascination with Penn and his work. I can't wrap my head around just exactly how and why he targeted O'Hare. He's obviously lying about it, but why?
|By Alan Cabal (Alan_Cabal) (220.127.116.11) on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 11:42 pm:|
And why hasn't O'Hare sued him? He may be uncollectable, but if somebody accused me of
something this heinous, I'd sue just to get the judgement on the record. I know that
O'Hare has a very arch sense of humor, but I get the feeling he's hiding something here.
Or just playing with the world, which he seems to enjoy doing. He's definitely the most interesting suspect, if not the likeliest.
|By Kendra (Kendra) (pluto.cds1.net - 18.104.22.168) on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 11:49 pm:|
Alan, Hmmmmm. I've been thinking of this "Team Z" as a feasible concept for a while now, and have also considered the Leopold and Loeb-ish aspect. On one hand, unlike L&L, I believe that the Z killings had ritualistic meanings for the perp(s) and were strategic and cunning in the making, and therefore were not committed out of sheer boredom. However, on the other hand, we know that Z enjoyed needling the police about his crimes, reveling in the fact that he had gotten away each and every time. So, in that sense, perhaps Z or (Z's) continued killing after LHR (or Riverside...?) to see if he could get away with it- just like L & L -which he did!
|By Kendra (Kendra) (pluto.cds1.net - 22.214.171.124) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 12:00 am:|
Regarding LB, the Ghia, and the two perp theory: I agree with Ray on his equation, A=B, B=C, therefore A=C. However, what if someone else was involved, a duo? "D" let's say...perhaps A and D are working together, both kill but only A writes the letters, and it was A at LB (which would explain the handwriting on the K. Ghia), but maybe D killed at LHR, A at BRS, so forth. That would explain the discrepency between the composite and the descriptions of Z, and Z's own words that he looks "like the description passed out only when I do my thing, the rest of the time I look entirle different" - a ruse?
|By Ed N. (Ed_N) (acc0a3b0.ipt.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 12:31 am:|
One thing I had never considered was Penn and O'Hare in it together. I wondered if
they had some sort of falling out over something, and Penn thought he'd get back at O'Hare
by looking at the Z case and seeing how he could implicate him. I have other theories too,
but I don't think I can post them without getting sued or something.
One thing about the two-perp theory is that, if one was the trigger man LHR, BRS and PH, and the other half did LB, that would explain away all of Peter's problems with LB being the work of a copycat rather than Z. It was Z, or rather half of him. The problems with personation, etc, etc, etc, don't mean anything with two perps.
One thing is for certain, if two were involved, then the letter-writer was certainly as violent as the triggerman, without even considering LB. The way he wrote, especially his letter "d," is graphologically indicative of someone who can be violent. There are probably many other indicators, but that's the one that sticks in my mind.
|By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-40-125.bos.east.verizon.net - 188.8.131.52) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 09:57 am:|
" The problems with personation, etc, etc, etc, don't mean anything with two perps."
And why not? There's no personation in a conspracy? I think there was way too much in common with Tajiguas to conclude that.
I kind of like the Z-team theory, nonetheless. But it would have to be at least three of them: the LHR/BRS shooter, the letter writer, and the Ghia tagger. Or The Ghia tagger was the LHR/BRS shooter, the LB killer was ALA, and the letter writer was out of the loop, so never got around to it until PH.
Seriously, Ed I do like this, but how'd they keep the secret?
|By Alan Cabal (Alan_Cabal) (184.108.40.206) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 07:44 pm:|
It was Big Paul Castellano who said "Three can keep a secret if two of them are
dead", but in this case, I think keeping the secret is a no-brainer. I've moved in
circles where secrets are kept by fair numbers of people. As soon as you get more than
five people together, conspiracies start blooming.
Granted, this is a better secret than most, involving unusual egos to boot, but we do have at least one example of two very unusual and brilliant prospects engaged in some weird folie-a-deux over this case.
Penn may be obnoxious, but there's no doubt whatsoever of his genius, and O'Hare is off the scale in terms of both brains and wit. They're a very interesting pair, those two.
I'd love to interview O'Hare on what it's like to be subjected to this sort of thing. It must be nuts. His side of this would make great reading. It's really suited for Dominick Dunne, I'm too gonzo for it.
|By Alan Cabal (Alan_Cabal) (220.127.116.11) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 10:31 pm:|
Of course, an acid trip with O'Hare would be a better score than Paul Krassner
dropping acid with Squeaky Fromme, which was a damned fine read.
MH2O, are ya there?
|By Tony (Mahalo) (hnllhi1-ar1-4-65-050-030.hnllhi1.dsl-verizon.net - 18.104.22.168) on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 05:45 pm:|
The 2 perp theory has always intrigued me as I've mentioned on this board years ago. But the writing on the Ghia always looked like Z writing to me. Unless of course, the 2nd perp held up the overhead projector that Graysmith's so fond of while Z wrote on the car door.
|By Kendra (Kendra) (pluto.cds1.net - 22.214.171.124) on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 05:03 pm:|
Tony, I agree - the writing on the Ghia does look like Z's handwriting. See my post above regarding my z "duo" equation/theory.
|By Sandy (Sandy) (12-233-103-176.client.attbi.com - 126.96.36.199) on Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 09:15 pm:|
Only one set of prints were found near the crime scene,but one could have stayed near the car as a look out and the writer,while the other did his thing.The ground is very hard away from the water,I would think that the footprint would have to be very close to the water.
|By Sandy (Sandy) (ppp-67-116-225-16.dialup.pltn13.pacbell.net - 188.8.131.52) on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 06:47 am:|
Yes I do believe more than one person was involved.That also happend in the Son of Sam case.If you think that it couldn't have been kept a secret,remember how the Mafia were able to it.They went after the family's of these men.David Berkowitz said that was how they did it in the S.O.S. case. This is all part of the confusion that has kept this case from being solved. Two heads are better than one ,how about 4 ? Even the z writer once wrote "We" the zodiacs are back. I believe that another clue is the odd drawing on page 246,which looks like a crude drawing of Mt. Diablo. The 4 dots I think represent 4 people two living east of the MT. and two west.
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-139-118.client.attbi.com - 184.108.40.206) on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 12:52 pm:|
"Even the z writer once wrote "We" the zodiacs are back. I believe that another clue is the odd drawing on page 246,which looks like a crude drawing of Mt. Diablo."
Page 246? Are you referring to a book?
Also, in exactly which authenticated Zodiac letter did he write "we..."?
|By Alan Cabal (Alan_Cabal) (220.127.116.11) on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 04:03 pm:|
If he/they had been inclined to use the first person plural, it almost certainly would have occurred in the "Exorcist" letter, in which context it would have been both ambiguous and chilling. It is, in fact, kind of interesting that of all the syntactic and grammatical anomalies abounding in the Z texts, there is not one instance of the use of the so-called "Royal We."
|By William Baker (Bill_Baker) (lsanca1-ar16-4-47-002-193.lsanca1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net - 18.104.22.168) on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 05:53 pm:|
Alan, that brings to mind the tendency amongst some of the domestic terrorist/radical groups from years past to refer to themselves as an "army," or other term evoking a legion of combatants, when in reality the "army" consisted of a small handful of zealots or even a single entity. Just as many members of the animal kingdom use physical puffery to appear larger and more menacing to their enemies, there have been many instances of lone criminals using the first person plural in their messages to induce greater intimidation and fear. Without reviewing all of Z's authenticated writings, I can't say he ever used "we," and I would tend to think that he wouldn't, knowing what "we" do of his criminal personality.
|By Alan Cabal (Alan_Cabal) (22.214.171.124) on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 06:18 pm:|
That's assuming it really was just one person. Part of looking at a work of art properly consists of noting what is implied but omitted. What is Mona Lisa smiling about? With all of the seemingly deranged misspellings and bizarre rants, why not "we" in the "Exorcist" letter? It would have led to some truly wild speculation.
|By William Baker (Bill_Baker) (lsanca1-ar16-4-47-002-193.lsanca1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net - 126.96.36.199) on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 09:28 pm:|
Alan, I don't see how (probably) intentional misspellings and bizarre rants have any bearing on the use of "we" in referring to the size of the complement behind the killings. I really doubt that Z's egotistical presentation would have conveyed anything but sole credit for his killings and writings. And I can't see Z, with his meticulous attention to detail, inadvertently writing we instead of I.
|By Alan Cabal (Alan_Cabal) (80.sanfrancisco-12rh16rt-ca.dial-access.att.net - 188.8.131.52) on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 11:42 pm:|
I don't think there's a single inadvertant word in the text, but I wonder how Z
resisted the impulse to tweak the audience with the further suggestion of possession
(already implied by the subject) by using the first person plural.
It would have scared the bejesus out of everyone.
|By Sandy (Sandy) (12-233-103-176.client.attbi.com - 184.108.40.206) on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 01:38 pm:|
Tom the page was in the first R.G. book on the Zodiac,sorry that is the only z book I have. You would think that with my name in his last one, I would have it. The note I believe was the one that was written to the school teacher along with the rose. She was the one who was receiving the phone call's from someone claiming to be Z and the one who was spotted near her home. I don't know if it was proven or not,but I believe that some of the real one's were discounted as fake.
|By TheBlackJet (Theblackjet) (220.127.116.11) on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 01:13 pm:|
Getting back to the idea of a Z team, Graysmith goes to some length to try and connect ALA to coed murders in the Santa Rosa area. He says that he police even saw Allen in a known dumping ground for these co-eds, somewhat suspcious I'll admit. Later in Zodiac Unmasked Graysmith says that an unidentified man was killed in a headon car crash and that police found drawings in his car of the murdered coeds hogtied. Graysmith strongly hints that this man and Allen may have worked together in the Zodiac killings with the man who was killed writing the letters and ALA doing the actual murders. If Allen did kill these coeds, and I admit there is some evidence he did, then finding drawings of these women when they were near death in another individuals car strongly implies a team. Anyone know who the man killed in the head on collision was, what his handwriting looked like, or if he knew Allen?
|By Wendi (Wendi) (dpc6682009035.direcpc.com - 18.104.22.168) on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 03:48 pm:|
I have had a bizarre education from several personal sources over my lifetime
regarding bondage sketches.( don't Ask).To me, they only seem to be the work of a
fetishist imagining perfect escapades with imaginary partners. For what its worth, I have
dozens of sketches drawn by someone I know who drew out his perfect sex scenarios on
paper.Quite detailed sketches at that.
Perhaps they were recollections of former crimes,but to sit and sketch a squirming hog-tied victim well enough to have them be as identifiable as photos is a feat I doubt someone excited by their crime could accomplish " on scene". Even someone observing the crime only would have difficulty concentrating to turn them into art.
So now one was killing while another drew a portrait of the act? Interesting.
The two person theory holds some water, but unless the sketches were after the fact...they doubtfully have any significance to that theory.Perhaps Graysmith is in knowledge of a man killed with sketches in his car, whats the proof that they were involved with the co-eds? Unless the girls had tattoos or jewelry that was meticulously detailed in these sketches...all we have is a rumor of bad art.And I doubt it would have the victims names as the title in the artwork. Doubtful...amazingly doubtful.
|By TheBlackJet (Theblackjet) (cache-mtc-af02.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 07:40 pm:|
Ok good point Wendi but lets consult Graysmith. On page 242 of Zodiac Unmaksed,
Graysmith mentions that the names of the victims were included with the drawings as well
as their sexual preferences. There was also a backpack that police identified as having
belonged to one of the victims found in the car the night of the crash.Police were already
bogged down with active cases didn't persue it becuase of some story about not wanting to
damange the guy's reputation now that he was dead. Now there is also evidence that Allen
had something to do with the Santa Rosa murders. Like I said before he was seen by police
walking around an area were a number of the bodies were discovered, Allen owned a trailer
in Santa Rosa, and a few other things. So if Allen and this unnamed person were working
together on this then they probably worked together on Zodiac.
P.S. Anyone know this guys real name or if he had an conclusive connection with ALA?
|By Wendi (Wendi) (dpc6682009035.direcpc.com - 126.96.36.199) on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 12:54 am:|
Okay, now I want to see 'em! Glad you took my post for the grain of salt is was meant
I never claim to be an authority, I just found it odd. I'd love some answers to the questions you raised as well.