Lake Berryessa, Possible WItness?
Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Theories: Lake Berryessa, Possible WItness?
|By Mike (Oklahoma_Mike) (220.127.116.11) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 10:27 pm:|
I decided this idea needed a new thread as it may go far afield from the discussion of
the sketch of the 'mysterious man' made at Lake Berryessa.
I mentioned in the above thread that it is inconsistent for the man who entered the store in a panic asking for directions for the quickest way to leave the lake to have been Zodiac for these reasons; 1-Virtually everyone interested in the case agrees Zodiac was very familiar with the areas in which he committed the crimes, he would not need to ask directions, he had his route planned out and probably practiced.
2-The surviving witnesses (Mageau, Hartnell, the
teens at the Stine site) all describe the killer as calm and methodical, leaving calmly, not in a rush or panic. When a police car passed him just after leaving the Stine killing he did not panic or freak (whether or not they spoke to him). The young women sunbathing remarked on this man's nevousness and chain smoking, neither of which have ever been mentioned by Zodiac witnesses. I concluded we cannot have it both ways. If Zodiac knew the area well he would not have rushed into the store in a panic asking for directions.
Try out this alternate scenario: What do we know about the man ion the sketch? He was ogling and staring at the women sunbathe to a degree they became at least a little uncomfortable. It appears this man went to the lake to fulfill voyeuristic desires. So, what if later in the afternoon he is hiding around the area and spots a young couple on a blanket, maybe kissing and maybe making out. He decides to watch, hoping for some really good voyeuristic action when a third party appears, wearing some kind of costume. Curious, he looks for a bit more and gets WAY, WAY more show than he ever expected! I know the geography of the place might make this difficult, but he could have been across a cove with binoculars. That could certainly make a nervous peeper freak and frantically ask directions to leave, especially if this was his first or one of the first times he was at lake Berryessa. Maybe the storekeeper witnessed the escape of a witness, not the killer!
If the above is correct, whey did the party not come forth? Maybe he was seen by Zodiac, or feared he had been. Maybe he had a record for window peeping and couldn't very well admit to the police what he was doing.
I have not heard this theory before, if it is not new, please inform me as to who deserves credit.
Whatever, what does everybody think?
By the way, I am not trying to tie the voyeur aspect to child molesting, ALA or any other suspect. If I am on to something, and this was a witness it does not rule in/out any suspect.
|By Esau (Esau) (12-246-187-137.client.attbi.com - 18.104.22.168) on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 11:44 pm:|
Excellent theory Mike. I'm surprised nobody has brought that up before. I think that just may be the best explaination I've heard so far.
|By Judy (Judy) (waf-dc32-39.rasserver.net - 22.214.171.124) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 06:37 am:|
Mike, very interesting... Try as I might, I can't
remember all the details regarding this man. Did
the storekeeper identify the composite drawing
from that day as being this same person?
Maybe I am naive, I can't help but think if this
man had indeed seen the killer he would have offered information. Afterall, watching girls sun-
bathing is not a crime. However, if he did have
a previous record-he may have wanted to stay
|By Metalex (Metalex) (126.96.36.199) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 12:45 pm:|
Does anyone know if Tom was ever able to interview the Los Gatos dentist and his son that were at LB the day of the attack?
|By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-wg064.proxy.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 03:13 pm:|
Good theory Mike,
I'll add that he did not care to come forward because there was a warrant out on him.
|By Judy (Judy) (waf-dc30-177.rasserver.net - 184.108.40.206) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 04:17 pm:|
Sylvie, do you have specific knowledge- or just
enhancing Mike's theory?
|By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-th062.proxy.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 04:32 pm:|
No Judy, I am just being creative.
|By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-ntc-tb083.proxy.aol.com - 18.104.22.168) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 07:15 pm:|
Very interesting ideas, Mike. You wrote, "If the above is correct, whey did the party not come forth? . . . Maybe he had a record for window peeping and couldn't very well admit to the police what he was doing."
It almost seems like the guy would have to have had a criminal record or something of that nature. Perhaps he was somehow violating his probation or was himself at large for some crime? If he witnessed the Z attack at LB, any of these possibilities could have made him panic and desire to vacate the scene before the cops arrived. At the moment, I can honestly think of no other reason why this guy would scram without providing testimony or, even better, some help to Bryan and Cecilia.
|By Mike (Oklahoma_Mike) (22.214.171.124) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 08:20 pm:|
Esau, Sylvie, Judy, Scott, thanks for the kind words and the aditional ideas. The only other possibility I can think of for such panicked behavior, as I mentioned above, was that the 'witness' thought he had been seen by the killer. Maybe he had. That would scare the heck out of me. BTW, if I give credit due once again it was my wife's contribution that maybe the witness had a record. Good elaboration, Sylvie, that maybe he had a warrant out. I'm excited about the possibilities of this thread.
|By William Baker (Bill_Baker) (lsanca1-ar16-4-47-009-142.lsanca1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net - 126.96.36.199) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 10:44 pm:|
Wouldn't it be something if the panicked voyeur had been seen by Z, and Z somehow managed to determine that he was a cab driver from SF?
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (54.philadelphia08rh.16.pa.dial-access.att.net - 188.8.131.52) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 03:45 am:|
It certainly would.
|By Judy (Judy) (waf-dc27-56.rasserver.net - 184.108.40.206) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 05:13 am:|
Just checking Sylvie. I am new to the board and am
not totally familiar with everyone's knowledge
about this case.
Oh, Bill-that would just be too freaky...
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (220.127.116.11) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 06:01 am:|
I can just imagine how it might play out:
Zodiac: Hey! Get lost! This is my turf!
Stine: Oh yeah? Have a look at this, fat boy! (Opens trenchcoat).
Zodiac: How disgusting! Who the hell are you, anyhow?
Stine: Paul Stine, and I drive a cab in San Francisco.
Zodiac: Well, pervert, I'm coming to San Francisco in a couple of weeks to blow out your zygomatic arch.
Stine: Oooo! That sounds kinky!
|By Jeff (Jeff) (spider-tn053.proxy.aol.com - 18.104.22.168) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 06:19 am:|
Maybe Stine was a lookout for Zodiac. Not knowing what was gonna happen he sees what happens and freaks out and high tails it out of Dodge. Then later, Z pays him a visit and evens the score....
|By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-wg063.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 07:48 am:|
Doug, you are bad!!!!
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-186-54.client.attbi.com - 126.96.36.199) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 08:33 am:|
I belive the story of the nervous guy in the store surfaced in the yellow book. I've
never seen it corroborated.
Maybe he was so nervous because he had just seen a bald, bloody fat guy get a speeding ticket? That's always traumatizing.
|By Judy (Judy) (waf-dc27-56.rasserver.net - 188.8.131.52) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 09:49 am:|
Tom, didn't RG mention other people who had seen
this guy in the store? I am thinking of the man
who was later killed in an explosion? And I thought maybe RG mentioned a waitress who saw him?
Maybe I have my facts mixed up.
I know RG takes liberties with the truth. But,
why he would make up such a falsehood?
|By Jake (Jake) (spider-tq014.proxy.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 09:55 am:|
"Does anyone know if Tom was ever able to interview the Los Gatos dentist and his son that were at LB the day of the attack?"
The Napa SO interviewed them and determined that the man they saw could not possibly have made it to the murder scene in time to have stabbed Shepard and Hartnell. This is documented in the reports Tom posted last year.
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (49.philadelphia04rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 220.127.116.11) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 10:08 am:|
Zodiac's assistant, no doubt.
|By Mike (Oklahoma_Mike) (18.104.22.168) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 04:38 pm:|
Det. William: The same thought occurred to me, but I just could not see any
resembelance between the photo of Mr. Stine on this site and the Lake Berryessa sketch.
Tom: Very frustrating. If tales relating to such specific events as the man frantically asking directions at Lake Berryessa or ALA observed walking along the rural road where a number of bodies were found are nothing more than fabrication or embellishment it makes me wonder if I can trust ANYTHING cited by the same source.
|By Judy (Judy) (0-1pool48-55.nas38.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net - 22.214.171.124) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 04:51 pm:|
Tom, I was under the impression you had some sort
of a working? relationship with RG. I may be wrong.
Do you? Have you discussed any of these points
with him at all? If not, do you plan to?
|By William Baker (Bill_Baker) (lsanca1-ar16-4-47-009-142.lsanca1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net - 126.96.36.199) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 08:59 pm:|
Mike, I hope you know that I was posing that scenario with my tongue firmly planted against my cheek.
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-186-54.client.attbi.com - 188.8.131.52) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 09:49 pm:|
Judy, I no longer care to communicate with that author.
|By Judy (Judy) (waf-dc29-211.rasserver.net - 184.108.40.206) on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 05:36 am:|
Tom, does that mean you have tried to communicate
with him, and he has not responded?
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 220.127.116.11) on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 02:04 pm:|
In a written summation of an interview with one of the three sun bathers at LB ,she reported to the detective and he wrote:"Suspect desc as approx 28 yrs[-Zodiac gives a start age as 25!]6'-6'-2 200-225 black hair possibly styled with part on left,rounded eyes,thin lips,med. nose,straight eyebrows,small ears,well built,nice looking,wearing black short sleeve sweat shirt bunched in front & T-shirt hanging out in back,dark trousers."