Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Theories: Stine Murder
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p162.as1.clonmel1.eircom.net - 220.127.116.11) on Tuesday, June 11, 2002 - 01:43 pm:|
For various reasons this murder stands out as being different from the others.It also
comes "hot on the heels" of the Lb murders,just two weeks later.Up to this event
the others were well spaced, giving the impression that they may have been well
planned.When one examines other serial killers, the apparent pattern suggests, that the
time between killings becomes shorter as the killer spirals out of control.If these
killings were well planned,one would imagine that this murder especially would have to be
so.It appears unlikely, unless the aforementioned hypothesis is correct, that this
particular murder could be "pulled off" within that time.As I do not
"hold" with this generalisation as applied to the Zodiac case,I am speculating
this event was well planned earlier and possibly even, brought forward for some reason!
|By Zander Kite (Zk) (a010-0025.stbg.splitrock.net - 18.104.22.168) on Tuesday, June 11, 2002 - 02:30 pm:|
This interests me also. I don't believe he planned the cab crime in advance of Lake B., however he probably had several murder scenarios or ideas in his head all along. I would lean more towards Zodiac being the type to gauge the press and public reaction to his Lake B. episode then taking steps from there. What I think happened was that Zodiac became upset in some way(s) over the publicity received from Lake B.. I think at that time he was labeled a "ladykiller". Maybe he didn't like that. Whatever upset him, I think it caused him to rush into establishing a murder scenario...to strike back very quickly because he became very angry. A cab driver would work well in a quickly planned murder for obvious reasons. Maybe this is why Zodiac was almost captured that night. His anger got the best of him, and he rushed into a not so very well-planned murder. You could even imagine Zodiac critical of himself afterward for almost allowing his own capture and then realizing he had best become a bomber or his anger would lead him to the nearest jail cell.
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (104.philadelphia01rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 22.214.171.124) on Tuesday, June 11, 2002 - 05:20 pm:|
Another thing, Zander, is that the murder at PH was so boldly audacious. It suggests to me that he might have been tempting fate or playing a sort of Russian roulette with the police, not really wanting to die, but not really caring if his actions led to a confrontation with the police.
|By Ryan Olesin (Ryan) (d150-160-190.home.cgocable.net - 126.96.36.199) on Tuesday, June 11, 2002 - 09:13 pm:|
There is probably a psychological effect from the 3 couples attacked and the letters within this 9 month span. By that point, the Zodiac had been established as a legitimate threat, and not some one time shooter. With the killer still out there, I'm sure this discouraged many couples from going to these places and encouraged more police patrolling in lovers lane places. There is also the chance that some of these couples may have started to arm themselves. Perhaps there was too much risk to continue to attack this diminishing feeding ground.
|By Judy (Judy) (waf-dc27-49.rasserver.net - 188.8.131.52) on Wednesday, June 12, 2002 - 05:28 am:|
Ryan, I don't think there could have been any
more risk attacking lovers lanes than the risk Zodiac took that night he killed Mr. Stine.
If killing couples had been his real goal, he
would have done so. For reasons that have been
discussd on this board--(we will probably never
really know)--Zodiac took a completely different
twist that night...
Doug, you mention the boldness of Zodiac concerning the killing of Mr. Stine. I can only
remember the 3 kids in the apt. seeing the murder,
and describing what they saw. Were other people
around? Did they actually see the crime-and
offer their observations? It seems he may picked
a spot with little activity-both people and cars?
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p218.as1.clonmel1.eircom.net - 184.108.40.206) on Wednesday, June 12, 2002 - 06:41 am:|
There are a few more points here that I would like to discuss in more detail,however
we do have different versions of events here and I'd like to be a little clearer on that
first,if I can.
One has Foulkes and Zelms passing Zodiac as he walked east on Jackson,the report saying that he turned into a private residence when he saw them.
Another has the same encounter, only instead of turning into the private residence on Jackson, they have him heading north on Maple.
Zodiac claims that he was pulled over and directed the cops in a certain direction.He claims they "went around the corner as I directed and I disappeared into the park a block and a half away".Has it been confirmed exactly where the officers passed or encountered Zodiac? If so was this closer to Maple or Cherry? From where were the cops approaching from? Did they go straight to the scene or pass the scene? If so did they approach coming south on Cherry or west on Washington? Anyone!
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p144.as1.clonmel1.eircom.net - 220.127.116.11) on Wednesday, June 12, 2002 - 11:31 am:|
Ok, I have one of those answers.Zodiac was supposedly passed/stopped outside 3769
Jackson,not far from the intersection at Jackson and Cherry.This makes sense because of
the distance travelled.The call was logged at 9:58 apparently while the crime was still in
progress or as he was just leaving the scene.I make the distance between Washington and
Jackson as just under 300ft.At a slow stroll, I'm even surprised he got that far.
The distance between Cherry and Maple is approx.400ft. Regardless of which way the police car was travelling how could they have seen Zodiac heading north on Maple?
If Zodiac was heading for the Presidio,why did he take the long route? The shortest line between the crime scene and the Presidio is straight up Cherry,just over 400ft.By walking east on Jackson and then north on Maple he was adding significant distance.If he did actually go this route, one could only assume that his car was parked somewhere around the top of Maple.
In Zodiacs letter, he writes about the murder over by Washington and Maple.Again one can only assume that either the location held some significance or he was unfamiliar with the area or both.Somehow the combination of this statement
and the route taken after the murder demonstrates a lack of knowledge of the area perhaps!
Does anyone know what kind of boundary existed at that time around the Presidio? Did it allow easy access?
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (acc12099.ipt.aol.com - 18.104.22.168) on Wednesday, June 12, 2002 - 02:51 pm:|
Lapumo: Check out Mapquest to see how the area looks today (I picked that intersection so
the star wouldn't be in the way of the important landmarks). As far as I know, it is
basically the same today as it was in 1969. Now, West Pacific is some six or seven feet
lower at the point where it almost intersects with Cherry, and at the northern end of
Cherry, there is a short path leading to some stairs which lead down and terminate at the
top of a wall approximately four feet high; the wall extends for quite some distance east
and west, and runs on the south side of West Pacific. Thus, the easiest way for Z to get
into the Presidio would have been to head one block north on Cherry, go down the stairs,
hop down to West Pacific Avenue, and head north. He could also have headed one block east
to Maple, turned north, hopped the fence at the end, and jumped down to West Pacific, but
it would have taken a couple of minutes longer to do so.
However, Z apparently turned east on Jackson and walked two blocks to Spruce, turned north, and at the end of Spruce, there is a gate of sorts that allows access to West Pacific and therefore to the playground and eventually the Presidio. The wall is about five feet high there. Pacific Avenue, which is a kind of one-way alley, runs along the south side of the wall and intersects with Spruce right by the gate, so West Pacific on the north and Pacific to the south actually parallel each other, separated only by the wall (Pacific is also a few feet higher than West Pacific at one point too).
His plan was already very risky from beginning to end, but he undoubtedly had already cased the neighborhood to know that there would be little traffic there at 10 PM. Even today, there is still not a lot of traffic or pedestrians at that time. I think that combined with his route demonstrates some rudimentary knowledge of the area. But why did Z choose that way? Other than the fire road through the forest on the north side of West Pacific that Bill Beeman opined that his brother Jack used as an escape route, there is no place to park one's car along West Pacific by Cherry or Maple without it being obvious. I don't recall if there's a parking lot along West Pacific by the playground, but Z certainly could have parked his car at the end of Spruce by the gate and away from anyone that might see him. Perhaps that's why he headed that way.
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (123.philadelphia01rh.16.pa.dial-access.att.net - 22.214.171.124) on Wednesday, June 12, 2002 - 04:16 pm:|
Judy, that area is residential, so I'm sure the potential existed for people to be around. One photo of the crime scene shows a crowd of people milling about, and I imagine they came from the surrounding houses, as opposed to being passers-by. Graysmith's scenario had him going past Maple Street after seeing a man out walking his dog. I'm sure this is just a product of Graysmith's imagination, but the inference is good, I think.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p51.as1.clonmel1.eircom.net - 126.96.36.199) on Wednesday, June 12, 2002 - 04:23 pm:|
That's the point I was next going to make.I didn't know about any fence but assumed
there would be one along the perimeter.Which goes back to the easiest route ,straight
north on Cherry and in by Finley Road.Ed, how do we know he walked two blocks to spruce?
Do you agree that the officers could not have seen him go north on Maple.Is this Graysmith
again?.It would also explain why the dogs did not pick up the scent at the top of Maple,if
Even if his car was where you suggest,one would still imagine he would have been better off getting into cover on the Presidio grounds, rather than walking the street.Again,much was made of him wanting to be seen.One wonders if he entered the Presidio at all!
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (acc12099.ipt.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Wednesday, June 12, 2002 - 05:06 pm:|
Granted, that's just an assumption that he walked to Spruce, but it is the easist way
to get to the playground without having to hop down from walls, etc (if he in fact was
even in that area). He may have been somewhere near the playground, as he described some
of the events of that night, but could just as easily have gotten the details from someone
who lived in the area and witnessed the events.
One thing is for certain, he did walk north on the east side of Cherry, and then turned east and walked down the south side of Jackson for perhaps half a block, at least as far as 3769. After that, it's hard to say, but I doubt Foukes and Zelms could have spotted Z on Maple; although it slopes steeply down from Washington to Jackson, it levels out north of there, and there are a lot of trees at the end by the rail at the top of the wall, so if Z was already there, he would have been difficult to spot from Jackson among the shadows (especially since he was wearing dark clothing).
There really isn't a fence around the Presidio like there is around other bases (at least in the Presidio Heights area), so anyone could really enter or leave at will, but there is a gate of sorts on Arguello to the west of Cherry to drive into the Presidio. I'm not certain where the dogs were brought in, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the cops did not have them get a scent at the cab first, otherwise they surely would have made a beeline for Z if he was still in the area.
BTW, where is Finley Road?
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (124.philadelphia-18-19rs.pa.dial-access.att.net - 184.108.40.206) on Wednesday, June 12, 2002 - 09:17 pm:|
You can see a good aerial view of the area if you go to Microsoft's Terraserver website at http://terraserver.microsoft.com. Just do a search on San Francisco and zoom in on the PH area until you're at one meter per pixel. You won't see details like fences, but you'll get a good perspective on the street layout and gross items like houses and buildings.
|By Zander Kite (Zk) (dialup-220.127.116.11.dial1.nashville1.level3.net - 18.104.22.168) on Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 07:15 am:|
I'd like to be the odd man out here and suggest the possibility that the Stine murder scheme was not as risky as what actually happened makes it appear. If a basketball player pulls up and shoots from half court, it is a bad idea, even if it goes in. If he shoots a wide open layup and misses, it was still a good idea. I believe the riskiness of the Stine scenario should be gauged before it happened, in a sense. Zodiac writes on November 9th:"... and I dissapeared into the park a block and a half away never to be seen again...." This seems to give away his expectations for that night. The way I see it, he planned to slip out of the cab undetected and disappear into the night without anyone really noticing what was going on. He apparently walked away calmly in an attempt to feign normalcy or otherwise not draw attention to the situation. I'm assuming this: The teens weren't drawn by the gunshot, but were just lucky enough to catch Zodiac in the act? Either way, I'm suggesting without an unlucky teen viewing, The Zodiac slips away into the night, and the cab is not discovered as a crime scene for some time with The Zodiac long gone. Of course, he elevated the risk from secluded drive-by shootings and put himself in the position to be free-floating thru the streets. My opinion on this though, is that 9 out of 10 times he slips out of the cab and disappears into the night, unoticed.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p218.as1.clonmel1.eircom.net - 22.214.171.124) on Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 01:14 pm:|
I checked this out with Mapquest.Finley road is right at the top of Cherry leading into the Presidio,right where you had those steps I guess.
Another point I wanted to get into here was the timing versus Foulkes and Zelms position.
Apparently, they spot Zodiac at the above address at 10pm while moving west on Jackson.By this time they are only 30 seconds from the murder scene.
I am guessing, I don't know for sure, but in all probability they are the closest to the murder scene at this point.Are there any official records?,where they the first on the scene? Surely
had they not encountered anything suspicious they would proceed directly to the scene to secure the area.This should have been at approx one minute past 10.The question is, whether this happened or they proceeded to look further along Washington.A more detailed look at this might give us an idea about whose version of events was correct!
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (acc3900e.ipt.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 05:53 pm:|
I found Finley Road; it's in the Presidio, and appears to lead into the golf course from Arguello, but it doesn't appear on the map I bought a couple of years ago! No wonder I couldn't find it... it's close to Cherry, but doesn't connect with it, however.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (ont-cvx1-198.linkline.com - 188.8.131.52) on Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 11:20 pm:|
Zander's thoughts are good.Z didn't plan on the teens seeing him and then calling the
police which brings Foulks/Zelms -so he may have changed plans,due to his seeing them and
later the two officers.
And who says Zodiac had a car that night?Did he have a safe place to stay with someone he knew?We have turned Z into a person who had no one and that is total speculation.The church of Satan(Motel 666!)which was fairly close, had its doors open to overnight crash people of all kinds.Hippy pads,many of them not really known to many people,provided refuge for a night or more with no questions asked.Or,he took a Yellow cab-just kiddin'!
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p246.as1.clonmel1.eircom.net - 184.108.40.206) on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 12:02 pm:|
True Ed, that Finley does not connect to Cherry,but perhaps that's what makes it most
attractive as an escape route. It's the nearest point of entry to the Presidio,there's
little chance of cars coming the opposite way and if Zodiac was followed to this point by
police they would have to get out of their cars to chase.If he had a car parked there he
has a good chance of escape.
Undoubtedly, the events of that night turned out much riskier than Zodiac had imagined.However he must surely have considered the possibility that
he may be seen and had an escape plan.I just find it hard to believe it involved walking a great distance.As far as Zodiac being seen strolling along goes,the teens only saw him walk for a short distance.As far as the poilce go the chances were he would have seen them before they seen him and slowed down to avoid arousing suspicion.
It also seems incredible to me that the dogs would have started from anywhere but the intersection at Cherry,unless there's information that we do not have.The fact that no trace of him was found makes it unlikely IMO that he walked to
any residence nearby, not impossible of course.
You are right Howard, in what you say about us assuming that Zodiac had no one.Given what we are looking at here we must at least consider that he was picked up.We also have that situation with K.Johns, where her car was not found in the place she left it.
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (acc07aae.ipt.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 05:52 pm:|
Maybe Beeman did have something there when he suggested that JB hid his getaway car on the fire road, which is not that far from Finley Road.
|By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-10407-2.linkline.com - 18.104.22.168) on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 02:31 pm:|
Finley-not the Irish connection again!
|By Ray N (Ray_N) (user-38ldfjt.dialup.mindspring.com - 22.214.171.124) on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 09:31 pm:|
In addition to police booboo's, one has to say also that Zodiac was incredibly lucky.
He missed being apprehended in "flagrante horrendo" by a minute or two at
most and potentially by mere seconds at both LHR and PH. In fact, he was so lucky at PH
that I think he was himself amazed that he escaped. Surely, he realized that this would be
his most dangerous game to date. To my way of thinking, it's no wonder he fired off a
long-winded diatribe lambasting the police after this. I can just see him rolling down his
window going across the GGB screaming out his disbelief at not being apprehended. That
must have been the thrill of a lifetime for him. What puzzles me is the duality of it. On
one hand, he must have enjoyed how he felt with the blood pounding in his ears. On the
other hand, he knows that to duplicate this feeling will require another risky foray in
which his incredible luck could not reasonably be expected to hold up. Regardless, by the
time he penned the letter of Oct 13, he decided that his killing days were over, because
he wrote, "I disappeared into the park a block and a half away never to be seen
again." Here we have an authentic announcement from a serial killer telling us
he's done. Not only that, it appears he was telling the truth. This seems to me to be
strong evidence that Zodiac has been misprofiled. He describes better as a disaffected
offender, in that he was able to plan bizarre and involved scenarios in advance, not
acting on a whim or under duress of compulsion. It seems to be an organized campaign with
defined parameters and boundaries, one of which was that it had a start and a finish. This
is not consistent with current thinking on the psychology of serial murder. So, with this
statement, do we not have evidence that Zodiac is an oddity, certainly that he does not
fit cleanly into the mold of a sexual-sadist type serial killer?
|By Ray N (Ray_N) (user-38ldfjt.dialup.mindspring.com - 126.96.36.199) on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 09:56 pm:|
As far as being seen by the kids, he may not have planned on that, but good grief, he planned on shooting someone in a residential neighborhood. I don't care what Graysmith says, Z's ears were ringing heavily after that deed. And was it audible outside the cab? Sure it was.
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (acbfaac7.ipt.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 11:39 pm:|
Regardless, by the time he penned the letter of Oct 13, he decided that his killing days were over, because he wrote, "I disappeared into the park a block and a half away never to be seen again." Here we have an authentic announcement from a serial killer telling us he's done. Not only that, it appears he was telling the truth.
I've often thought that's exactly what Z meant, especially considering he was nearly caught and felt it would be better to quit while he was ahead. Before Stine, he may have thought of committing more murders, but because of the events of that night, he almost certainly reconsidered.
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (192.philadelphia06rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 184.108.40.206) on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 12:11 am:|
Ray writes, "So, with this statement, do we not have evidence that Zodiac is an
oddity, certainly that he does not fit cleanly into the mold of a sexual-sadist type
Not an oddity at all; simply that he's been mistyped. As I've been arguing for some time now, his personality is that of a mad bomber without the bombs. It's along the lines of a Huberty or Whitman, only in his case he's used the murders and the rationalization for them to build up his ego, whereas the egos of Huberty and Whitman were completely shattered to the point where suicide and a statement were the only way out for them.
|By Zander Kite (Zk) (dialup-220.127.116.11.dial1.nashville1.level3.net - 18.104.22.168) on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 05:09 pm:|
I prefer the label of "terrorist" for The Zodiac. Terrorists are drawn to bombs as a way of seeking revenge against a larger oppressing force, in this case society. The larger force fuels the anger in the terrorist, leading him to strike back. Zodiac seeks publicity and lets the authorities know what he is responsible for, just like any terrorist group that commits and takes credit for an act. Terrorists try to change the attitude of the larger force they are battling. Translated: Zodiac wanted to change society. Zodiac threatened to punish society if they did not wear his buttons. I believe this was fun and games for The Z, perhaps a dry run whereas an uncaught and advanced Zodiac would make more serious demands.
|By Park Grubbs (Parkgrubbs) (spider-tl062.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 07:14 pm:|
This may be a dumb question, but was the fingerprint in the cab tested against Stine? I've never actually heard that it was, and it seems to me that the possibility exists that the police simply did not do that ("how could he have left it if he was dead?") I've heard of bigger blunders in this case. Maybe a snickering Z left a conspicuous fingerprint from his victim to see if the police were stupid enough not to do this; it seems consistent with his taunting streak. Was the fingerprint mentioned in the paper? He might not have mentioned it in his letter, thinking it might throw them off indefinitely.
|By Ray N (Ray_N) (user-38ldf4n.dialup.mindspring.com - 126.96.36.199) on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 08:22 pm:|
There were prints on the cab attributed to Paul Stine. The bloody print is an
unidentified print, not because it wasn't matched to anyone, but because it is not in good
condition for comparison. It is an impression of portions of two fingers, with the
identified points of comparison split between the two fingers. There was only a trace
amount of blood, proven by the means used to lift it.
|By Zander Kite (Zk) (dialup-188.8.131.52.dial1.nashville1.level3.net - 184.108.40.206) on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 07:39 am:|
I've always believed that after the Stine fiasco, Zodiac decided to lay low, set himself up to take credit for any unanswered deaths, and turned to bombs. I did believe him capable of bombing, I just figured he decided laying low and making terrorist threats was all he should do at that point. However, Dougs description of The Zodiac as a mad bomber without the bombs or even a terrorist without bombs makes the most sense. Look at it this way: Zodiac decided to give up the up-close murders after Stine and turned to bombs. Bombs are a much safer way to kill, and the risk involved would be a lot less than murders like October 11th, maybe a little more risky than dropping off a letter, but equal if Zodiac decided to place a bomb in the maildrop? Zodiac wanted to kill, but not take the same previous risks, he wanted to bomb and kill but didn't. He appears to not have the ability to truly be a bomber at the time. Maybe he thought he could pull something off bomb-wise, but didn't. I guess we should believe that his bomb was a dud. It would make sense that at this point the Zodiac crimes are played out: He won't risk any more Stine-like close encounters and he has not the skill to be a bomber. His terrorist threats become played out as well without actual killing to go with it. Under this scenario we should look for a suspect who develops bomb skills after fading away from the zodiac scene in 1971, and becomes the bombing terrorist that he always wanted to be. We should also keep in mind that this guy is not one to dabble in obscurity.
|By Ray N (Ray_N) (user-38ldep7.dialup.mindspring.com - 220.127.116.11) on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 11:21 am:|
Just to answer your point about PH possibly being brought forward, I agree. I think this crime was probably conceived of at least in a general way between July and September. The Lynch interview was, IMHO, the likely trigger to put it into action.
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (acc1e59b.ipt.aol.com - 18.104.22.168) on Friday, June 21, 2002 - 09:18 pm:|
Zander: you're making certain assumptions about Z that are unknown and unknowable quantities until such time as he is identified, arrested, charged, tried, convicted and jailed. In other words, there is no proof that Z wanted to change society; rather, it appears more than anything else that he got his rocks off by doing what he did, because he managed to make no (permanent) change in society. And claiming that he turned to bombs is also a baseless assumption. He may have harped on bus bombs for a while, but so what? He certainly never used one. Now, using your logic, we'd expect that Bruce Davis would have turned out to be a mad bomber because he was always talking about blowing someone up. However, he seems to have gotten off using a knife instead and never blew anyone up. So, you appear to be going from the assumption that TK was Z, and work from there, rather than the other way around.
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (162.philadelphia08rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 22.214.171.124) on Friday, June 21, 2002 - 09:59 pm:|
Ed (and Zander, too), none of these people actually want to change society. They want to shore up their foundering egos, and to do it they create a quasi-delusional worldview in which they are the normal ones and everyone else is whacked. It's not psychotic delusion, though it masquerades as such, and throws the psychiatric profession into fits. TK had this delusional system fully in place by 1971. Obviously Zodiac didn't present us with anything approaching an ideology, but his victimology suggests that the crimes were motivated by a belief system in which affectionate young couples were viewed as worthy of punishment. Assuming the nexus between TK and Z, the former might have found himself a new worldview, but he never got over his despite of couples. Kaczynski flew into a rage when he discovered that his brother had found a woman and was getting married. Things were never the same between them after that. In a letter to David he wrote, "I can pretty well guess who the dominant member of that couple is going to be. It's just disgusting. Let me know your neck size - I'd like to get you a dog collar next Christmas."
|By Zander Kite (Zk) (dialup-126.96.36.199.dial1.nashville1.level3.net - 188.8.131.52) on Friday, June 21, 2002 - 10:50 pm:|
This is how I described The Zodiac in 1992(before Kaczynski). He is a publicity-seeking killer. A bomber. A loner who is better off writing than talking, because he writes like an elastic band thats been held back, socially repressed (if that's the correct wording.) Very careful killer, very interested in not getting caught. Does not show signs of being a "sexual sadist" like named on the back cover, is more of a terrorist-type of killer due to bomb threats and demands for publicity etc..Writes about going on a "kill rampage" which reflects a mass or spree killer mentality. Fairly to highly intelligent. Seems to write in different styles(British, hippie, etc.) in order to sow confusion. He is noise-disturbed.(Takes one to know one, sometimes). He is anti-working stiff(takes one to know one, sometimes.) I did not believe any of the 3 suspects could be The Zodiac. Thought it possible that the composite was accurate and/or the police encounter caused The Zodiac to become a lot less active. When he writes about all the different ways he will kill, it appears he is setting himself up to take credit for any unanswered deaths, on the heels of almost being caught. I saw those things as being connected. Other minor things like: I thought it was strange to use "The Zodiac" instead of "Zodiac". Things like: a serial killer will continue doing his thing: until killed or jailed can be applied here. So for me to think that The Zodiac would carry on, is not some sort of Kaczynski/conspiracy but staple serial killer theory. An example of how I would be off on the Kaczynski as Zodiac scenario, would be that I thought The Zodiac must have lived in the area from 68-71 or so. I had not even heard of The Unabomber at this time, at least I don't think so, either way not enough to make a difference.... Whenever I read about an unsolved case, I underline and take notes in the book. My GRK book is a mess of lines and notes. My originally-bought copy of Zodiac is in about ten pieces currently. I am not a hack.. I know what the hell I'm talking about..If no one believes that my description of Zodiac fit Ted like a glove BEFORE I had ever heard the name Kaczynski.. I don't care.. I graduated from Sherlock Holmes and The Hardy Boys when I was about 6, and that would be my advice to some of the people on this message board. PS: EVERYTHING you have just read are observations made before realizing that a person named Ted Kaczynski existed. Hopefully this puts to rest any garbage about Zander being accused of being a poser. Thank You.
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-186-54.client.attbi.com - 184.108.40.206) on Friday, June 21, 2002 - 10:54 pm:|
"Hopefully this puts to rest any garbage about Zander being accused of being a
poser. Thank You."
Zander, I'm curious: why are you speaking in the third person?
|By Zander Kite (Zk) (dialup-220.127.116.11.dial1.nashville1.level3.net - 18.104.22.168) on Friday, June 21, 2002 - 11:04 pm:|
Doug, I agree with your post. I am a bit torn on that in a way, because I do believe that the Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race. However, I still agree with what you have written. My lengthy post after yours was meant to answer Eds, just to clarify.
|By Zander Kite (Zk) (dialup-22.214.171.124.dial1.nashville1.level3.net - 126.96.36.199) on Friday, June 21, 2002 - 11:12 pm:|
Tom, I'm not sure actually: It could represent a disassociation problem: It could represent an empty lithium bottle. I guess it was just to be stylish though. Only one person writes for Zander Kite: me: just in case that might lead one to believe that Zander Kite is some sort of team effort.
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (acc2dfb5.ipt.aol.com - 188.8.131.52) on Saturday, June 22, 2002 - 12:44 am:|
Zander: I agree with some of what you came up with, and some I have to wonder how you came to the conclusion you did. For instance, why did you decide he was a bomber? Or a very careful killer? Quite the contrary, I saw Z as being careful enough to plan ahead, but also foolhardy and sloppy in some instances. As far as his bomb threats went, I saw them as his attempt to get as many cops as possible riding shotgun in buses, which would therefore reduce the number of cops out looking for him. In other words, a means to an end, but not something he was otherwise particularly interested in.
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (acc2dfb5.ipt.aol.com - 184.108.40.206) on Saturday, June 22, 2002 - 12:48 am:|
Like the Stine murder, for instance (the topic of this thread after all): it was, in my opinion, regardless of how quiet it was in that neighborhood at that time, still a foolhardy thing to do. That, coupled with being seen by five witnesses (two of which were cops), getting soaked with his victim's blood and possibly leaving fingerprints behind qualifies him as being pretty sloppy.
|By Zander Kite (Zk) (dialup-220.127.116.11.dial1.nashville1.level3.net - 18.104.22.168) on Saturday, June 22, 2002 - 08:10 am:|
The idea of my lengthy post was to show how I viewed Zodiac before Kaczynski. I'm not saying this description can't be disputed, but I have not tailored those things to match Kaczynski. Zodiac wrote that he wanted to kill with bombs. He is describing himself as a bomber. So, I have not made that up. As far as the Stine scenario, it can be described as a stupid move. But I think it is a better argument.... that it displays his compulsive leanings and his inability to contain his anger. I believe that he wanted to shoot the cab driver when no one was around on the streets: he jumped to the front, pushing the driver low out of level sight of the street. I believe that the catch here is: He didn't anticipate being seen from above...... or even from a residence. My opinion is that without someone luckily viewing Z at the right time, no cops and The Zodiac is then viewed as a crafty phantom-like killer, capable of anything. Maybe that's part of what he wanted out of this.
|By Zander Kite (Zk) (dialup-22.214.171.124.dial1.nashville1.level3.net - 126.96.36.199) on Saturday, June 22, 2002 - 08:45 am:|
A good comparison to the Stine scenario is Ted Bundy at Lake Sam. The "Ted" killer makes an appearance there in front of ALOT of people. He leads at least one potential victim to his car, that does not go with him. The authorities even ended up with a picture of "Ted" in his Volkswagen, he was lucky too, that the view of his plate was blocked. What must have the police thought of the "Ted" killer at that time: He was reckless, made some stupid moves etc. But we know who the killer was: A criminal genius: A man who carefully planned his crimes. So that is my argument: we are dealing with inherent risks and compulsive personalities. My opinion is that The Zodiac, when compared to other serial killers, was very careful.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p50-233.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 188.8.131.52) on Saturday, June 22, 2002 - 03:33 pm:|
Zander,with all due respect,I started a new thread here to try to discuss the events
surrounding the Stine murder.There are umpteen options open to you to get your views on
across,please use them.
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (109.philadelphia08rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 184.108.40.206) on Saturday, June 22, 2002 - 04:07 pm:|
Actually, Lapumo, I seem to have been the one who originally brought up Kaczynski. Save your ire for me.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p50-58.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 220.127.116.11) on Saturday, June 22, 2002 - 05:09 pm:|
Actually,Doug,"Ire" didn't come into it,I believe
I was perfectly curteous and even answered Zander on the appropriate thread and I'm not being sarcastic either. Point taken,thank you.
|By Zander Kite (Zk) (dialup-18.104.22.168.dial1.nashville1.level3.net - 22.214.171.124) on Saturday, June 22, 2002 - 08:32 pm:|
That is true. I make no claims to have established or developed Kaczynski as a suspect. I am a follower, in a sense. The only thing I'm really doing that's original is attempting to collect some pictures from SF 68-71,74. Some of you have appeared to adopt the strategy of criticizing the Kaczynski/Zodiac connection thru me, but it's not my creation. But I can take it. I'm not bothered, anyway.
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (97.philadelphia-18-19rs.pa.dial-access.att.net - 126.96.36.199) on Sunday, June 23, 2002 - 07:52 am:|
Actually I was referring to bringing up Kaczynski in this thread, which I think was a
valid thing to do, the way the thread developed. But I don't consider myself as having any
kind of patent on the Kaczynski theory. Zander has made some outstanding observations, in
I believe the arguments in favor of the theory are both forthright and clear. Kaczynski may ultimately come up with an alibi or some other exonerating factor but I believe a solid case has been made that if he himself isn't culpable, the perpetrator is someone whose characteristics are virtually indistinguishable. One needn't be a blind follower in order to arrive at that conclusion.
|By Ray N (Ray_N) (user-38ldeto.dialup.mindspring.com - 188.8.131.52) on Sunday, June 23, 2002 - 10:16 am:|
Yes, there is no one who is going to say Ted doesn't warrant at least a look. I agree that Zodiac shares many personal characteristics with Ted. But ultimately, IMO, Ted will be shown not to be the Zodiac by the proof that someone else is. It will take that to eliminate him.
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (24.philadelphia01rh.16.pa.dial-access.att.net - 184.108.40.206) on Sunday, June 23, 2002 - 10:43 am:|
Agreed, Ray. Unless, of course, he can come up with an alibi. I can't understand why he refuses to do this, or why his brother won't jump in and say something in his favor.
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (acc05f25.ipt.aol.com - 220.127.116.11) on Sunday, June 23, 2002 - 11:13 pm:|
But getting back to the Stine murder...
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p51-171.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 18.104.22.168) on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 03:34 pm:|
Evidence suggests that "Zodiac" whoever he was, knew he was seen by the
teenagers that night.
Given the distance he covered before he was spotted by Foulkes and Zelms makes this only a walking pace,one can only see two alternatives.
Either he wasn't at all panicked by this,which may throw doubt on this whole "scared into changing his ways" belief or he was incapable of moving much faster, perhaps ,implying that he was indeed a "big man".
|By Ed N (Ed_N) (acbf0219.ipt.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 04:13 pm:|
Lapumo: Z was seen by the three teens. I've mentioned before that I happened to meet an old friend of theirs in November 1999 (he knew their names, which told me he was legit), and he said that they told him that Z looked directly at them, closed the cab door, and walked away into the night. So, he knew that not only had he been spotted, but also that the police were almost certainly on their way as well.
|By Sylvie (Sylvie14) (spider-ntc-tc083.proxy.aol.com - 126.96.36.199) on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 04:44 pm:|
And just as an aside note to that Ed, a couple of days ago I heard renowned composite
expert Jeanne Boylan say that in her (very educated) opinion adolescents and teens make
the very best witnesses in terms of describing a perp. She said they even do better than
There are differing theories as to why this is so.
With Z having looked directly into their eyes that evening, my guess is that he was terrified at being exposed.
Next naturally you have the denial - Gee folks I do not really look like that - you have the Belli letter claiming insanity, you have the threats to school buses, oh and no more definite Z crimes.
They saw him, and they saw him good.
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p50-225.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 188.8.131.52) on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 06:09 pm:|
Yes,I agree he was seen.Surely the natural inclination would have been to get "out of there" as fast as he could.However,the distance covered suggests only walking pace.I can only see two alternatives,as above!If he was "terrified", why didn't he run?
|By Zander Kite (Zk) (dialup-184.108.40.206.dial1.nashville1.level3.net - 220.127.116.11) on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 06:29 pm:|
As an example, Eric Rudolph was identified because he drew attention to himself by running away from the scene of his last bombing. The Zodiac, at that point, was locked into a situation where he was better off staying calm than panicking. He also wrote previously of driving away quite slowly so as not to draw attention to his car.
|By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (208.philadelphia08rh.16.pa.dial-access.att.net - 18.104.22.168) on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 07:30 pm:|
It's interesting to compare the behavior of Kaczynski when he was caught in Salt Lake
City in the act of placing a bomb. Rather than running (which would have alerted the
witnesses that something was up) he simply turned around and walked calmly away. That's
what a clear-thinking person will do in a situation like that. The police aren't around,
and there's not necessarily any indication that they'll arrive any time soon, or even that
they've been summoned. Run, and you'll draw attention to yourself from all quarters.
Retain your composure and there's still a chance you'll be caught, but at the same time
there's a good chance you'll be passed by.
By this time, Zodiac has already shown himself to be a cool character who can pull off a major crime in a very short period of time, acting almost as if from a script. Yes, he made mistakes, but on the whole the murders (especially Berryessa) went off quite well. I'd expect nothing different from PH.
As for his being "scared" by the near-miss in the latter event, I think he was very frightened, only in a cerebral way, as opposed to the physiological sensation of angst.
|By Bucko (Bucko) (spider-mtc-te022.proxy.aol.com - 22.214.171.124) on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 08:28 pm:|
Ed N wrote: "...and he said that they told him that Z looked directly at them,
closed the cab door, and walked away into the night".
If this indeed happened, it would seem to lend credibility to the viewpoint that the print on the cab did come from Z. I can see Z forgetting himself for that one brief moment, as he suddenly realized that he was being watched.
The value of the print is another issue, of course. Are the whereabouts of the witnesses known? Have they been interviewed lately?
|By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p51-170.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 126.96.36.199) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 01:44 pm:|
Just getting back to this "did the officers stop him or
not"discussion....The dispatcher logged the call at 9.48pm. The officers in question,
being the closest to the scene, responded.They time their encounter with Zodiac at 10.pm,
two minutes walk from the scene.
Standard operating procedure would also require these guys to "log in" at the crime scene and I believe a log book is kept for such a purpose.Any officer or detective arriving thereafter would have to do this.
By my way of thinking, the first duty of such professionals would be to secure the crime scene.
If accounts given by these officers are correct i.e "they just drove passed this guy" that would put them first on the scene at approx 10.01pm.
If one the other hand,they stopped and spoke with Zodiac or, as Zodiac claimed, they took off in the direction which he pointed,then perhaps arrival at the scene would be later that expected.
Perhaps there are police reports available detailing who arrived when or first.If not,perhaps there are witnesses who undoubtedly began to gather there, with this information.
This timing might allow us to make a reasonable assumption!
|By Brackett (Brackett) (sc-66-74-243-206.socal.rr.com - 188.8.131.52) on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 12:49 pm:|
I am new to this, but have many questions. Even though I have read most of the
messages relating to Paul Stine's murder, excuse any redundant questions/observations.
I truly think the crux of the Zodiac case lies with Paul Stine's murder. My grandparents, Father and subsequently I all lived at 392_ Washington St. (1940-1995) I know the area very well and the neighbors. Something is very odd about the Stine murder -- on the surface it appears to be almost an afterthought/unrelated to the other murders.
Did Z specifically request to be dropped of at Maple and Washington? If he did, which the log shows, then there must have been two reasons: 1) he had a car waiting there or 2) he lived in that area, perhaps in the Presidio. Supposedly, the cab continued on an extra block to Cherry--there was a man walking a dog? A witness? Which leads me to ask, why murder Stine on a house-lined street with possible witnesses in homes (like the teenagers)? Why not continue into the Presidio, where there are also homes, but where it is darker and easier to get away? What was significant about this destination--was it random or planned, was the assault premeditated in the cab ride, at Mason and Geary earlier in the night, or days beforehand? If you are going to kill a cabbie, there are so many other places to do it in that would seem less risky...what was it about this location and this victim? Last question for now: the teenagers that night saw him at what distance? From the street or the home where the party was taking place? Did any of them, or the officers who supposedly questioned him notice any blood on him?
|By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (pdx-cfi-90.navi.net - 184.108.40.206) on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 01:38 pm:|
"Last question for now: the teenagers that night saw him at what distance? From the street or the home where the party was taking place? Did any of them, or the officers who supposedly questioned him notice any blood on him?"
You really need to review the rest of my site before asking questions. Most have already been answered. See Paul Stine's page.