Zodiac Actions Concided with Lunar Events


Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Theories: Zodiac Actions Concided with Lunar Events

By Ray N (Ray_N) (sdn-ap-006scfairp0149.dialsprint.net - 63.184.240.149) on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 07:13 pm:

Zodiac Actions Concided with Lunar Events

With a nom de plum such as Zodiac, a relationship between his actions and astrology can almost be a forgone conclusion. Before venturing down this road, it is vitally important to point out the difference between astrology and astronomy. Of course, astronomy is an established science that is the study of the makeup of the universe, and focuses in large part on the planets and constellations that are visible from earth. An established pattern of apparent movements of the heavens across the sky exists that has been studied since the time before recorded history. This pattern of continuous transitional movement is known as the Ephemeris. Astrology differs from astronomy in that it attempts to assign relevance to events on earth based upon whatever alignments may be in place at a given time. It goes on to assign certain general characteristics to people born under various stellar and planetary alignments. So, it can be said that astronomy is scientific and factual, and while astrology is grounded in astronomy, it is instead a system of beliefs. Whether these beliefs are in fact meaningful is not relevant to an investigation of this type. What is relevant is whether or not the suspect placed any importance on astrological influence. The name Zodiac, the astrological symbols used in the ciphers, certain patterns related to the commission of his crimes, and the posting of his letters lead us to believe that, at a minimum, he was at least aware of what was going on in the sky as he went about his business below.

In studying the details of this case, there are in fact several patterns that are nearly undeniable. Patterns can generally be said to suggest design, and so these are presented here as further evidence of the integrity of an overall theory.

The first consistent pattern relates to phases of the Moon during certain Zodiac events. All of the attacks themselves were committed on either a Friday or a Saturday. The assumption of this pattern not interfering with a normal work schedule makes as much sense as any other, particularly when it seems to have been the main controlling factor in the selection of attack dates. The next most important factor seems to have been the phase of the Moon. All of the attacks occurred either exactly at a New or Full Moon when such an event would permit a Friday or Saturday attack. Otherwise, the attack was carried out at the earliest opportunity following a New or a Full Moon. Presented below is a summary of the relevant dates and Moon phases:

December 20, 1968 - The Lake Herman Road attack on a Friday night, only one day after a New Moon and about six hours before the launch of Apollo 8, the same Moon mission commemorated by the stamp from the Halloween card. The New Moon was also at perigee (closest point to earth during one orbit) of about 356,703 km on December 19. Astronomical data provided by Fred Espenak of the Goddard Spaceflight Center in Greenbelt, MD.
July 4, 1969 - The Blue Rock Springs attack on the first Friday following the Full Moon of Monday, June 30.
September 27, 1969 - The Lake Berryessa attack on Saturday, two days after a Full Moon. There had just been a penumbral lunar eclipse on September 22, 1969.
October 11, 1969 - The Presidio Heights attack on Friday night, precisely on a New Moon.

Just as the attacks seem to have been scheduled around phases of the Moon, a similar pattern exists in relation to the mailing of important Zodiac letters and ciphers. The aspect of the Ephemeris that is emphasized in the case of the letters is not necessarily the Moon phase, but the position of the Moon or the Sun relative to the constellation Taurus. As a planet or other body moves through the sky, it transitions each of the twelve constellations in sequence. The Moon takes only about two days. As a body enters a constellation, it is said to cross its cusp….

The Vallejo Times-Herald received a three-page letter in early August 1969. This letter is officially dated August 7, 1969 but the San Francisco Examiner published it on August 4, 1969. This is the letter that begins with, "In answer to your asking for more details…" In this letter is the first occurrence of the name Zodiac and begins the campaign of clues by mail. The Moon entered the constellation of Taurus on the morning of August 4, 1969.
The "Dripping Pen" greeting card was posted on November 8, 1969. The next day, November 9, the 340-symbol cipher was posted. The New Moon occurred on November 9, 1969. Perhaps this posting two days in a row, the only time Zodiac did this, was meant to emphasize not only a certain date, but also the phase of the Moon that occurred on that date.
The Melvin Belli letter was postmarked on December 20, 1969, a Saturday. The Moon entered Taurus just before midnight GMT on December 19, 1969, about the time of the first anniversary of Lake Herman Road and Allen's birthday.
The "My Name Is" letter was postmarked April 20, 1970. The Sun entered Taurus on April 20, 1970.
There are three misspellings in the "Dripping Pen" card of November 8, 1969: "thought", spelled "though" omitting the "T"; need spelled "nead" with an incorrect "A"; and front spelled "frunt" with an incorrect "U". In order of appearance, these are TAU, which is the official abbreviation for Taurus.
In January 1974, the Moon had a very close perigee of 356,545 km. It had only come closer on four other occasions during the 20th century. There is an episode of In Search Of entitled "Moon Madness" that features January 1974 as being significant in many ways with respect to the lunar cycle. The Exorcist letter was posted on the 29th of that month, just after the winter solstice.

Additionally, one important event stands out as being related to both Moon phase and position. The Lake Berryessa attack, Zodiac's spectacular appearance as the Lord High Executioner from The Mikado, occurred exactly six hours after the New Moon crossed the cusp of Taurus at 12:29 pm PST on September 27, 1969. The importance of the time of the attack was underscored by Zodiac himself, as he wrote "6:30" on the door of Hartnell's car. I have not been able to determine the significance of this, but it makes sense that it would have something to do with a certain additional alignment. This would explain why he waited until that time to commit the actual attack, first engaging the victims in conversation for a period of time. This would mean that Zodiac likely had his astrological chart done, and received readings for specific dates. It's possible that he felt he would have the greatest chance for success with certain planetary alignments in place.

Curiously, the Moon was not only New Moon, but had also been at a close perigee distance of 356,944 km on December 17, 1933. This relates very well to Zodiac's debut at Lake Herman Road. It might be useful to find out the time of Allen's birth, have his chart done, and then find out what kind of readings he would have likely gotten for embarking on risky ventures on the dates of the attacks.

The astrological data used above can be verified at the following sites:


http://www.ameritech.net/users/paulcarlisle/MoonCalendar.html

http://www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/pacalc.html

http://www.nasa.gov

By Ed N (Ed_N) (acbfb387.ipt.aol.com - 172.191.179.135) on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 07:30 pm:

Absolutely fascinating, Ray. You certainly put things in a far better perspective than Graysmith ever did concerning the possible use of astrology by Z in conjunction with his crimes. However, I might point out that you wrote:

The Exorcist letter was posted on the 29th of that month, just after the winter solstice.

The period you refer to as being "just after" the winter solstice was actually close to six weeks in length.

By Ed N (Ed_N) (acbfb387.ipt.aol.com - 172.191.179.135) on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 07:37 pm:

I especially like your discovery of the misspellings spelling out "TAU"... it looks like Z hid another Taurus "symbol" (abbreviation anyway) in his letters... I wonder if there are any others???

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-139-118.client.attbi.com - 12.224.139.118) on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 07:52 pm:

Ray wrote:
"The Lake Berryessa attack, Zodiac's spectacular appearance as the Lord High Executioner from The Mikado..."

You present that as a fact, which it is not. Whatever happened to the Count Zaroff theory?

Also, you used a few examples of coincidences involving the Zodiac's letters and sign of Taurus. With almost 25 letters to pick from, something tells me a case could be made for any other sign, too.

Finally, why didn't Zodiac merely write "6:29" on the car door?

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-139-118.client.attbi.com - 12.224.139.118) on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 07:58 pm:

Also (not to be a party pooper), Zodiac also spelled "awfully" incorrectly: a-u-f-u-l-l-y.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-139-118.client.attbi.com - 12.224.139.118) on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 08:10 pm:

Also, December was incorrectly abbreviated as d-e-s. That means we are only an "r" away from spelling TAURUS.

By Alan Cabal (Alan_Cabal) (12.81.121.130) on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 10:41 pm:

January 29 is, as has been noted, a long way from the Winter Solstice. Other than that, it looks interesting, but the whole thing is really getting to be a Mark Frost/David Lynch collaboration.

Maybe Zodiac killed Jack Nance.

By Ed N (Ed_N) (acbfbf59.ipt.aol.com - 172.191.191.89) on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 11:03 pm:

Remember, when you turn the card upside down, the dots underneath the exclamation points occur in three distinct groups, of 1, 3 and 2 dots, which indicate Highway 132...

By Ed N (Ed_N) (acbfbf59.ipt.aol.com - 172.191.191.89) on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 11:05 pm:

Tom... maybe his watch was one minute fast...

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-139-118.client.attbi.com - 12.224.139.118) on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 11:06 pm:

I would find Ray's findings extremely interesting if you could find an "r" somewhere. Otherwise, it's just another mirage.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-19105.linkline.com - 64.30.222.109) on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 11:20 pm:

We have discussed astrology in detail in past posts and the Zodiac crimes.I have carefully researched astrology for many years as did police reporter Dave Peterson.I have consulted with a professional astrologer that has studied the subject since 1972.He was one of the best students of famed astrologer and math expert Carl Payne Tobeys best student.Tobey was a master in the subject of astronomy too.I am not advocating astrology,but I am indicating it is important to understanding or having a fuller degree of understanding in the ZODIAC case.
The new moon was in Sagittarius 12/20/68.On 7/5/69 the moon was in Pisces(Darlene was a Pisces FYI).On 9/27/69 the moon was in Aries.Moon full in Libra 10/11/69.For a FYI the moon was full in Libra 3/22/70.There WAS a full moon in Taurus 10/30/66 when Bates was killed.Taurus ,in astrology, 'rules' the throat!
There is an amazing preponderence of positions in Libra.12/20/68 Mars,Jupiter and Uranus all in Libra.7/4/5/69 Uranus in Libra.September 27,69 sun,Mercury,Jupiter and Uranus all were in Libra.On Oct.11,69 Moon,Mercury,Jupiter,and Uranus were all in Libra.FYI the moon and Uranus were both in Libra 3/22/70.More,but this is enough and really impressed Peterson who knew astrology and the occult.The moon changes signs in astrology about every two days or so.There are,of course,12 signs.
I would ,as my astrology friend stated,'look for a Libra'( such as my suspect born 10/5/42 FYI).He knew astrolgy and the occult sciences and firmly believed in it.
There is a strong Libra connection not Taurus.Incidently,in standard works of astrology,Libra AND Taurus are "ruled" by the SAME planet or Venus!Maybe Z was playing games with a subject he had a fair degree of interest in.
In Dave Petersons solution to the 'notched'cross/circle Zodiac drew ,it is Libra that is Rising (also called the Ascendent)which is extremely important in astrology.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-19105.linkline.com - 64.30.222.109) on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 11:58 pm:

Also, in a letter dated 8/13/72, to Det.Les Lundblad from Peterson he says"...his[Zodiac]sun is Libra.This would put his birthday in the Libra period of September 23-Oct.23."
The messages of Zodiac were linked with the sign Libra also.As Peterson says 'on 11/9/69 Uranus,Jupiter,and Venus were all in LIBRA.'There are many other examples of the Libra connection in regards to letter dates.They abound.
Peterson discusses Z'timimng' with Lundblad too."Quoting from an 1969 astrology magazine for the sign Libra,"Oct.8 ,Mercury ends its retrograde period.A new wave of activity("my riverside activity"-astro speak)can be expected to begin...A conjunction of the sun and Jupiter in Libra precedes the new moon of Oct.11[!] and the re-enterance of Mercury into the same sign[libra].You should occupy the SPOTLIGHT personally,and you[Librians]can expect opportunities to demonstrate to the LIMIT your capacity...all of which refers particularly to Jupiter in Libra...SAT.OCT.11[not because he had the day off-it's all astrological]:Begin a NEW[first time a lone male?] VENTURE and BROADEN the sphere of your interests[a hit in the large city of S.F. would fit these instructions!]...All such new undertakings[pretty literal for poor Stine!]are favored...You Librians are still in the early stages of the exciting transit of Uranus through your sun sign,WHICH BEGAN LAST FALL(1968!)."All EMP. mine and rest FYIs.

By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p51-38.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 159.134.51.38) on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 05:27 am:

Actually the TAU finding in the sixth card was information I passed to Ray as was significance of the post date on the "My name is letter".
The code included in this letter contains the Taurus symbol hidden in a circle( a new symbol used for the first time)As there have been many different opinions as to what this actually was,I think the posting date points to its actual meaning.The 20th is the day the sun enters Taurus.
Whether there is an overall pattern here remains to be seen,however I believe the posting date as it relates to Taurus and its inclusion in the 13 code can be taken on its own as being relevant.

By Zander Kite (Zk) (dialup-65.57.51.152.dial1.nashville1.level3.net - 65.57.51.152) on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 06:50 am:

"TAU" is the incorrect finding in the method used here. The "T" sets the standard, because it is a letter that should be penned but isn't. Thus the words: though, nead, frunt: produce the letters "TEO": because they are the letters that should be there but aren't.

By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p51-156.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 159.134.51.156) on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 07:18 am:

BWAHAHAHAHAHA, well done Zander.I did notice that before too.I was wondering how long it would take
to get Kazcynski in here.
I wouldn't call it an incorrect finding, just depends on how you view it.It could be just as easily argued that it was the errors themselves that are important.
Again as Tom pointed out there are two more errors
here,so it might be all nothing.I would like to see a clearer view of the "U" in AUFULLY though.It is hard to make out.The "au" is somewhat seperated from "fully". Symbolism? AU.. Gold. Bookworm is alive and well.
I could get an R in there, but I feel it a stretch.

By Zander Kite (Zk) (dialup-65.58.105.124.dial1.nashville1.level3.net - 65.58.105.124) on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 02:14 pm:

I'm not promoting TEO as a clue here. I do agree that with no manipulation "TAU-US" is read, in order. I am, however, willing to rule out that The Zodiac was trying to write "Taurus" because I believe he would have just included an "R" error between the "U"s. I don't see any risk or otherwise reservation in including the full Taurus, like that suggested in the "Kaznski" 340-signature. I believe I have uncovered the cryptic clue left in the dripping pen letter. I say it that way because one is led in the direction of suspecting a cryptic clue exists, because the missing "T" is so blatant.* * * * Looking at the first line you read "I though you would nead". There are two errors. If you correct the sentence to it's closest word by adding a letter you get: I though(T) you would (K)nead : equals (TK). One really has to wonder why Kaczynski's name(and initials) keep surfacing in The Zodiac letters.

By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-139-118.client.attbi.com - 12.224.139.118) on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 03:09 pm:

Give me a break, Zander. If I added letters that don't exist to Zodiac's letters (such as your phantom "k") I could spell just about anything.

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (coral.tci.com - 198.178.8.81) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 12:59 am:

Ray,

Absolutely fascinating stuff! Thanks for sharing. Ed's right about your theory making more sense than Graysmith's. Excellent work!

You wrote, "It might be useful to find out the time of Allen's birth, have his chart done, and then find out what kind of readings he would have likely gotten for embarking on risky ventures on the dates of the attacks."

That is an excellent idea. IMHO, finding astrological patterns based upon a suspect's birth chart would be many times more significant than anything which might be found in the 340-character cipher.

Zander wrote, "If you correct the sentence to it's closest word by adding a letter you get: I though(T) you would (K)nead : equals (TK)."

Sure, but if you correct the sentence correctly you would get "need" not "knead."

"One really has to wonder why Kaczynski's name(and initials) keep surfacing in The Zodiac letters."

In the investigative world, it's referred to as "working with blinders on." How anybody can take your ethereal and tenuous connections seriously when you can't even establish the hardcore fundamentals is beyond me. IMO, anybody willing to buy into your line of bull has probably all ready purchased oceanfront property in Nevada and has a snake charmer for a personal physician.

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-ntc-ta084.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.16.59) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 07:46 am:

Ray,

By the way, what exactly do you mean by "have his chart done"?

Are we talking astrological or astronomical here?

Scott

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-ntc-ta084.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.16.59) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 08:10 am:

PPS. Astrological = psychic/medium.
Astronomical = evolutionary/historical = astronomy.

I honestly hope this doesn't turn into a "Harry Houdini and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle" type of discussion.

By Ray N (Ray_N) (sdn-ap-010scfairp0379.dialsprint.net - 63.189.161.125) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 08:35 am:

Yes, it's true Lapumo did contribute information on this including that bit about TAU which I neglected to point out. Sorry about that Sean.

As far as the solstice goes, it's just the shortest day of the year, it's at the end of December not January, so that was a mistake.

By having a chart done, I was referring to an astrological chart. This is assuming that Zodiac consulted an astrologer about when the best times would be for him to engage in risky behavior. So with his chart, we could today get readings that he likely would have got back then to see if there's any substance to this facet of it. I'm not a believer in astrology myself, but we can't ignore this if we think Zodiac was. This is why I'm keen on finding out the time of Allen's birth. The same test could be applied for anyone else's suspect as well.

I'm not saying this is how it went down, it's all just an interesting bunch of coincidences that can't be proven. This could very easily be nothing but a bunch of hogwash. However, I thought it was very, very interesting especially given the lunar aspects connecting Allen's birthdate and the date of the first attack.

By Ray N (Ray_N) (sdn-ap-006scfairp0485.dialsprint.net - 63.184.241.231) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 09:38 am:

As far as the time 6:30 goes, I'm not saying it's necessarily significant that the attack happened six hours after the moon went into Taurus. What I'm suggesting is that not only was the moon in Taurus, but that some additional alignment was also "required" for the attack to take place. What this might be I have not been able to determine. It would be easier if an astrological chart for one individual was available. It might be a collection of alignments that was significant.

By Ray N (Ray_N) (sdn-ap-006scfairp0485.dialsprint.net - 63.184.241.231) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 09:50 am:

Scott:

Having a chart done is really based in astronomy. This means that the position of the Ephemeris is computed for the exact coordinates, date, and time. These alignments are a matter of scientific fact. Astrology is only an attempt to assign meaning to these alignments.

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-ntc-ta072.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.16.52) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 09:50 am:

"I thought it was very, very interesting especially given the lunar aspects connecting Allen's birthdate and the date of the first attack."

I agree.

"This is assuming that Zodiac consulted an astrologer about when the best times would be for him to engage in risky behavior. So with his chart, we could today get readings that he likely would have got back then to see if there's any substance to this facet of it."

His "chart" by any medium and/or psychic in particular? Isn't it likely that 100 different mediums will give you 100 different answers? How can we possibly know to what "chart" Zodiac was referencing? If we were talking astrological, we could easily gauge Z's known activities in that regard, but by what standard can we gauge astrological charts?

Seriously, I'm not being argumentative, but for the sake of the discussion I'm claiming ignorance.

"The same test could be applied for anyone else's suspect as well."

I honestly don't get it, Ray. What "test" are you referring too? There are obvious parallels in astronomy, and you touched upon them very well, but astrology? Seriously, I'm not being facetious; I honestly don't understand how a "birth chart" can shed light upon anything. If you found a "chart" which had been "drawn by a medium" among a suspect's personal effects, that's one thing, but having a chart drawn that the suspect has never even seen doesn't amount to a can of beets from where I stand. Explain this further please.

Scott

By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p51-199.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 159.134.51.199) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 10:12 am:

Ray,
As well as the new moon on the night of the Stine killing, it was I believe, one year to the day after the launch of Apollo 7!

By Zander Kite (Zk) (dialup-65.58.107.239.dial1.nashville1.level3.net - 65.58.107.239) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 11:14 am:

The Zodiac made two spelling errors right in the beginning of the writing: "I though you would nead." Blatant errors like this I find suspicious. The last time I was drawn to blatant errors like this is when it read "Theo" in the 340. There are two spellings(pronounced the same) for the word "need" and also "knead". Of course "need" is intended, but Zodiac writes "nead". "need-nead-knead" It is clear to see that it is possible that The Zodiac was drawing attention to the initials TK with these blatant errors. "I thought you would knead.." compared to "I though you would nead..." Once again, only working off what The Zodiac has penned.

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-ntc-ta032.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.16.32) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 11:31 am:

Because it's written plainly in the post above, I thought I'd lend another reason to the list of why PH would have had major disadvantages to the teens who witnessed the aftermath: "[T]he new moon on the night of the Stine killing."

A new moon, fog, from at least sixty feet away, probably more like 30 - 40 yards in my honest opinion, at night, with [maybe] Z in disguise, by a group of teens who may or may not have been stoned . . . uhm, I mean, intoxicated . . . amounts to a whole lot of nothing. I'm telling y'all, both SFPD composites combined aren't worth the paper they were drawn on, including the ink. The only thing of significance that I can see is in the general features category, which, ironically enough, equates to everything other than that which the composite represents artistically. In other words, the verbal descriptions provided by Mageau and Hartnell are much more telling than anything the teens ever provided, and are therefore the only useful aspects to the composites themselves. Honestly, I don't [entirely] blame the SFPD composite artist for the character and feature flaws that the composites have. Under the conditions that he was provided, he did a competently inaccurate job.

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-ntc-ta032.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.16.32) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 11:41 am:

"Once again, only working off what The Zodiac has penned."

Minus the "T" and the "K"; yep, that's brilliant.

By Ray N (Ray_N) (sdn-ap-008scfairp0127.dialsprint.net - 63.189.136.127) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 01:10 pm:

Yep, right you are Lapumo. Apollo 7 was launched on October 11, 1968. Hmmm. It's apparent that we have some clues that we should pay attention to apects of the moon. There are just too many to ignore, and you have found yet another.

Scott:

Don't feel bad. It's not the most straightforward concept. It works like this: Whether or not we have any regard for astrology (which I personally don't) is not relevant here. What is the important question is whether or not Zodiac did. Astrology is based upon astronomy. In other words, a birth chart only shows what the positions of the celestial bodies is at the time of a person's birth. These positions are not arbitrary, they are simply measurable scientific facts. Astrologers use the birth chart to make determinations and predictions about individuals. So if we had the birth chart for a particular suspect, we could find out what kind of readings that person would likely have received from an astrologer in the days/weeks leading up to the attacks. It doesn't matter whether the readings would mean anything to us, it matters whether they would mean anything to Zodiac. So, for example, if we were to give this suspect's chart to an astrologer today, that person could tell us the same kinds of things that an astrologer from the 60's would likely have told the suspect about the advisability of engaging in any type of risky behavior. This doesn't mean we have to accept what the astrologer tells us, it is only an indication of the information the suspect would have likely received had he consulted an astrologer before commiting attacks. So, all that is necessary is for the suspect to have had an interest and belief in the merits of astrology. This might be able to be determined by conducting the test I described.

Ray

By Ray N (Ray_N) (sdn-ap-008scfairp0127.dialsprint.net - 63.189.136.127) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 01:28 pm:

Scott:

As far as consistency among astrologers, you have a point. But this could also be part of the test. Astrology is generally not like somebody with a crystal ball just making stuff up. It is a fairly uniform discipline, in other words, certain alignments have certain meanings and there should not be much leeway with that. I'm sure it is possible to have variations in readings, but what if we got several that were the same?

By Ed N (Ed_N) (acbeca5a.ipt.aol.com - 172.190.202.90) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 07:28 pm:

October 11th, 1968, was the date the Star Trek episode "And the Children Shall Lead" first aired (as I pointed out last year, I believe). Belli and his son were both in that episode as well, but it's probably all zynchronicity.

By Ed N (Ed_N) (acbeca5a.ipt.aol.com - 172.190.202.90) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 08:17 pm:

Zander wrote:

Blatant errors like this I find suspicious... It is clear to see that it is possible that The Zodiac was drawing attention to the initials TK with these blatant errors.

Quite right, and some guy named Gareth Penn found them very suspicious as well. So suspicious, in fact, that he included quite a few of them in his 1987 book entitled Times 17. Perhaps you've heard of it? Just in case you haven't, within it's pages he goes into detail as to how these various spelling errors help prove that his suspect, Mike O'Hare, is really Z.

So, based on both Penn and you, Zander, using the concept of spelling errors to "prove" that your suspect is Z only shows that both of you can't be right. Only one theory, or neither, can be correct, and I am forced to choose the latter.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-19105.linkline.com - 64.30.222.109) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 08:56 pm:

The Children Shall Lead-Lee-see!Or bleed with the b being silent!
More seriously,I had my suspects chart done early on.The astrologer knew next to nothing about the Zodiac case.
What surprised me was that the suspect was in a long range Pluto cycle which the astrolger told me STARTED,or began to seriously indicate (to a believer-and he was an advocate) around October 1966!There were some 'influences' as they term it, in '63/4,but it was more forceful or public in 1966.It 'went out' and 'came in' -he informed me-"December 1968" and stayed 'in cycle'as it 'affected' his chart till the end of 1970 when he was taken into custody.
The astrologer found that in a killers chart this could mean the desire to kill,not that a person would ,but that on the negative side,it could indicate a time to strike out.
Pluto is associated with youth and pioneering activities and is an aggressive indicator.It 'rules' the underworld.
Keep in mind,I am only repeating astro thought and how someone into astrology would look at these kinds of transits,etc.as they surveyed their own chart.
I think testing other suspects is a grand idea.All one needs to do is request the birth data,as I did,from the area where they were born and for a small fee a copy of the certificate will be sent.
When the astrologer did the chart of my suspect and he gave me the points of time he would most likely strike out in some aggressive fashion,they were all the canonical Zodiac attacks times, with some, like the Johns abduction that aren't considered actual Zodiac hits.
When I showed the astrologer the Zodiac attack times he wasn't surprised as he 'did his chart and this doesn't surprise me-it fits.'
Since Peterson knew astrology he carefully checked the fingings and he concluded the same thing.This was fairly early on in our research.Peterson,on the case since 12/20/68,firmly believed Zodiac was into astrology,numerology,etc.
Taking the same astrology publication for Libras( a page of this same magazine was sent to the SAC Bee 12/10/69 -Leona Roberts?with a pasteup setting "Want Zodiac" and other writings as given in my book for the first time);
Peterson copied some of the following for Lundblad in his 1973 letter:"Dec 1968 issue:The opposition of Mars to Saturn and the conjunction of Jupiter and Uranus on the 4th degree of LIBRA,strongly emphaze your sun sign Libra...you should be eager to try new[Pluto-newness]paths...in quite revolutionary ways...fate smiles on you and your initiatives...you should radiate confidence...your efforts should bring you splended PUBLIC response."
For July 1969:"Venus which rules Libra,is making various aspects this week...On JULY 5 and 7 Venus makes inspiring aspects to Jupiter and ...FRI...you have an inside track...you must reconize opportunities when they are available and be ready to handle them in a judicious way."
Peterson told Lundblad (long before he knew my suspect or that he was a Libra 10/5/42- same date as postcard of 10/5/70 FYI) "...his[Zodiac]sun sign is Libra."

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (cache-ntc-af07.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.26.172) on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 09:28 am:

Ray wrote, "I'm sure it is possible to have variations in readings, but what if we got several that were the same?"

There is only one way to be certain that I know of. Honestly, I believe that the Zodiac was into astrology in one way or another, but I'm also very skeptical as to whether or not multiple readings of the same birth date will be interpreted identically. That's the thing that separates astronomy from astrology; the former can be shown to be correct time and again while the latter cannot. If it could it would be considered a science, which it isn't.

I realize that astrology is based in astronomy, Ray, but one is obviously a science while the other is most definitely a belief structure. It doesn't matter if the Zodiac believed in astrology or not, and it also doesn't matter that astrology is rooted in astronomy, because the reading of a chart is left to individual interpretation, just like any religion that has ever existed. For science to have meaning it need only exist, whereas astrology requires explanation and faith. You can certainly have Allen's chart done, if for nothing other than amusement, and you can have it done 20, 50, 100 times, but any parallels that you see will exist only because of the general vagueness of the description. Sure, the same birth date will yield the same astronomical alignment of the heavens time and again because that part of it is scientific. However, everything after that is worthless because, beyond the actual alignment of the stars themselves [scientific], all that remains is a smorgasbord of interpretation [astrological]. Tell me, what good is that? Is it going to lead to a conviction? Irrefutable proof of Z's identity? Honestly, I think you are kidding yourself if that is what you are talking about.

This line of reasoning is way too esoteric for my tastes and, frankly, I never really thought of you as that type of researcher, despite the fact that you don't believe in astrology itself, and I truly believe that you don't. Seriously man, tell me you are joking. Granted, it's an interesting facet that [probably] had some influence on the Zodiac, but I'm seriously skeptical about the ability of an astrological birth chart leading to anything tangible. Perhaps there are clues hidden within the suspect's birth chart, but if they aren't tangible to the layman with a good head on his shoulders, you won't find the answer by going to an astrologist for a reading. I'm sorry, that simply doesn't make any sense.

Scott

By Ray N (Ray_N) (sdn-ap-008scfairp0372.dialsprint.net - 63.189.137.118) on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 10:12 am:

Scott:

You wrote: "Granted, it's an interesting facet that [probably] had some influence on the Zodiac, but I'm seriously skeptical about the ability of an astrological birth chart leading to anything tangible."

I agree with you. It would be impossible to garner any useful evidence by going to an astrologer. I only maintain that it might be interesting. Remember what I said earlier, there might not be anything to this whole line of thinking. As it stands now, the lunar angle is just a set of coincidences and cannot be proven to be more than that. As far as the kind of researcher I am, I like to think of myself as willing to explore (almost) any path. Most if not all of the traditional ones have been trailblazed, compacted, and paved without result. I'm not claiming that this is going to identify Zodiac. It's NOT! I do, however, think it is interesting and offered it only as an FYI type of thing for others who might find it so.

Ray

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (spider-ntc-tc041.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.17.36) on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 10:32 am:

Ok. Thanks.

By Zander Kite (Zk) (dialup-65.58.110.76.dial1.nashville1.level3.net - 65.58.110.76) on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 09:13 pm:

I can add some very interesting angles pertinent to the topic here concerning astrology, astronomy, coincidence and even witchcraft. Well anyway, there's a particular brand of astrology/witchcraft over here by Grandfather Mountain(my home)known as Shicklegruber. It is somewhat environment-ally based with an O Henry influence(his bones are not too far away). One example of interest(it also has pre-Zodiac San Fran Sisco connections) perhaps is the celebrated period of Wietchstein. Similar to Halloween, only it is celebrated from Oct. 11 to Oct. 30.! Interesting dates, huh? And yes, I did say it was called Wietchstein. STEIN!. Also it is common terminology among Shicklegruber followers to call the moon "Blue Rock" however up until now I cannot confirm if this does pre-date '68, but I believe so. I invite anyone to read up on it further and you'll see some potentially fascinating possibilities when applied to the Zodiac case and/or suspects.

By Zander Kite (Zk) (dialup-65.58.106.197.dial1.nashville1.level3.net - 65.58.106.197) on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 02:48 pm:

I have unearthed a lot more on Schicklegruber. There are amazing connections and I have become convinced that there is a Zodiac connection. The Zodiac symbol is actually the Schicklegruber sign and it goes back to at least the 1940's. Only difference is that the symbol includes N,E,W, and S at the points-"I thought you would knead a good laugh before you hear the bad news."?? Apparently directions are a big deal in witchcraft. Part of the Wietchstein tradition is to ride a moon-colored or otherwise yellow horse carriage thru town. But I have learned that it has been altered or otherwise evolved to where, as a replacement for the carriage, a cab is hailed and driven thru town. This is the first day of WS, October 11th. The last day of WS is on October 30th. Followers pay close attention to the time when nearing midnight, similar to a New Years celebration, to mark the end of WS into October 31st.

By Zander Kite (Zk) (dialup-65.58.109.67.dial1.nashville1.level3.net - 65.58.109.67) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 03:02 pm:

Today was a good day. I found a Schicklegruber dwelling at about the 3000 foot mark of Grandfather Mountain. Can't confirm if it's still being used, but it is somewhat worn. It has some strange writing. I wrote it down: Gfaiirlich ess iss wie toedt" and: "Sell iss awrchrecklich". I got pictures. I though I might get lucky and find the SG/Zodiac sign there but no. My advisor on the SG subject ,Natilie, says she believes there is a dwelling at 5000 feet with a Zodiac sign. So I'm headed out there tonight. I have been given a book: Gabrauch Buch: It's for good luck as is this schnitz un gnepp, and I'll have to dummel dich before it gets too cold. It's supposed to be 25 degrees tonight at 5000 feet, I'll knead my winter get-up for sure. Oh well, I'll try to get pictures. See you all in a few. Zander.

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-19105.linkline.com - 64.30.222.109) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 03:04 pm:

Zander,
I have always asserted that Zodiac had some interest in Hitler,witchcraft,etc.See past posts.I think Schicklegruber was Alois' or Hitlers fathers real name!It was later changed to Hiedler and shortened to Hitler.
Of course,April 20,1889 was Hitlers birthday(he was born at;yes,6:30 PM-and the astro'aspect at the time of the good ol' German Ghia door 'signing,' and the time of the supposed phone call from Zodiac to the Palo Alto Times on 10/20/69. Zodiac,as you know, sent a missive in 1970 at that time or on April 20th.
The time frame of WS for October or midnight seems close to the Bates time scenario.GS asks was there a reason why the killer 'seemed to waiting' for the right time or whatever.See his remarks.FYI

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-19105.linkline.com - 64.30.222.109) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 03:47 pm:

Zander,
And also,the failed Beerhall Putsch initiated by Hitler and his followers was November 9 with some giving it as 11/8/9,due to the events at that time.These dates were celebrated by Germans,as you know, during the Nazi reign.These also were the dates for two Z communications 11/8/9/69 as we know.Also,the ninth was the new moon.
I note that May 8th'45 was the day the Germans signed the allied surrender instrument and Z sent his 5/8/74 letter.FYI

By Alan Cabal (Alan_Cabal) (234.sanfrancisco-12rh16rt-ca.dial-access.att.net - 12.81.119.234) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 04:49 pm:

So the latest tack here is that the "Not Zs" did it? Maybe that'll help Erik Scheinermann (aka "Ariel Sharon") rally American support for his latest campaign of genocide. Spread the word! Hitler killed Cheri Jo!

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-19105.linkline.com - 64.30.222.109) on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 04:14 pm:

No Alan it was Himmler.He raised chickens in Riverside!
There have been posts before about the possible reasons Zodiac may have had for selecting kill times including the sending of letters.

By obiwan (Obiwan) (ciw1.ciw.edu - 192.70.249.30) on Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 01:37 am:

This would explain why he waited until that time to commit the actual attack,

Interesting, Ray. Perhaps you would wish to connect this to the Bates Letter "I SAID IT WAS ABOUT ... TIME FOR HER TO DIE". Regarding the time of LB, have you checked that against the time of sunset?

Also, most of the events you discribe are astronomical, not astrological. Question:are the times of Moon in Taurus the Astronomical Times or the Astrological? The difference is that Astrology has not accounted for precession so they have the positions of the constellations off by about 1-2 constellations. If they are the astronomical times, as suggested by the sources you have consulted, then I would not share your conclusion "Zodiac must have had an astrological chart done".

I really find very little to suggest that Z was into astrology. Few people who discuss radians are.