Could The Zodiac Have Suffered From PTSD


Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Theories: Could The Zodiac Have Suffered From PTSD

By Nick (Nick) (216.52.215.232) on Thursday, October 31, 2002 - 12:06 am:

It is an intriguing angle. I wonder if any of the investigators in the Zodiac case ever pursued it. I don't suppose it would have been too difficult to get a list of all Vietnam combat veterans returning to the Northern Bay area in the 1965 to 1968 timeframe. Compare that list to the list of 2500 or so Zodiac suspects and see if you get any hits. I can imagine that you would get at least a few, perhaps more than a few.

There's a murder trial going on in Illinois right now where the defense is playing the PTSD card. Below is an excerpt clipped recently from the stltoday.com website. It provides a little background on how defense attorneys use this argument, and how guys like John P. Wilson make a living.

MADISON COUNTY

Defendant suffers from stress syndrome, lawyer says

The attorney for a Moro man accused of killing his wife presented evidence Tuesday that his client suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder from a stint as a door gunner on a combat helicopter in Vietnam. A psychologist who specializes in diagnosing and treating Vietnam veterans with post-traumatic stress disorder testified that Michael Sparks, 60, had tested positive for the disorder and that his interviews with Sparks had confirmed the condition.

Sparks is accused of murdering his wife, Patricia Sparks, 57, at their house in Moro on Sept. 2, 2000, just a month after she had filed for divorce from him after 37 years of marriage.

The prosecution rested its case Tuesday after a firearms expert testified that the bullet that killed Patricia Sparks matched the handgun that Michael Sparks was carrying when a Madison County sheriff's deputy found him walking in circles in a bean field.

The psychologist, John P. Wilson, and Sam Mallory, who served with Michael Sparks in Vietnam, talked about Sparks' experiences in the war: long days firing a machine gun from the door of a helicopter, times when Sparks witnessed aircraft crashing or being shot down.

"For the entire duration of his service in Vietnam, he was exposed on an ongoing, daily basis to heavy combat," said Wilson, who has worked with Vietnam veterans for nearly 30 years.

Sparks' attorney, William Lucco, also showed clips of amateur videos of Sparks in Vietnam. In one of the clips, Sparks smiles as he shows off a photograph of himself with his wife. Another clip showed Sparks' helicopter with the words "Hi Pat" written in the dust.

Madison County Assistant State's Attorney Don Weber quizzed Wilson about his findings, asking whether Sparks could have faked the test results and pointing out that Wilson almost always testifies on behalf of defendants.

Some of Wilson's former clients include Erik Menendez, a California man convicted of killing his parents in 1989 with the help of his brother, and William Kennedy Smith, who was acquitted in 1991 of a rape in Florida.

By Peter H (Peter_H) (dialup-63.214.87.199.dial1.boston1.level3.net - 63.214.87.199) on Thursday, October 31, 2002 - 05:20 am:

For a good case study on PTSD, do a little web surfing on Manny Babbitt. Textbook. I'll try to supply a link later. So clearly recognized as a Nam victim, he got his purple heart, official Marine ceremony, on death row at Quentin, and burial back here in Wareham with full military honors.

Hard for us to feature, maybe: Z as war hero.

No, Manny could not have been Z, even though he committed his crime on the night of Dec 18 in Sacramento. Not big enough, Cape Verdean, (African/Portuguese/American) and no doubt spoke with a recognizable South Shore accent (Ted Kennedy in a hardhat).

I think a military records search could begin much more narrowly than Nick suggests, focusing on rotations stateside in 1968. I am in the process of gathering the roster of SeaBee personnel at Khe Sanh, for two reasons. The seige of Khe Sanh was the most intense of the entire war, and involved relatively few troops: about 3500 marines and no more than 50 SeaBees [McArthur once said "the only thing wrong with the SeaBees is that there aren't enough of them"]. Both the seige and the in-country rotation of all the SeaBees and most of the Marines were voer in July of 1968, certainly within a few months after that. So you have a concentrated influx in a short time of a relatively few troops, all Navy, from the worst prolonged firefight of the war in the months just before Dec 20, 1968. Every one of the known Z killings occurred within 10 months thereafter.

BTW: My source informs me that SeaBees were issued wing-walkers in the States. Most had only jungle boots and dress shoes in-country, and switched over when they got back.

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-19-98.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.154.19.98) on Thursday, October 31, 2002 - 07:35 am:

Manny Babbitt URLS:
link1
link2
link3
Chronicle aricle

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (cache-ntc-af07.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.26.172) on Thursday, October 31, 2002 - 07:46 am:

Excellent start, Peter, and there are plenty of other places to look if that doesn't pan-out.

When did the 1/7 Air Calvary begin its exploits in Vietnam? Those boys saw a lot of combat, especially during the early stages of our most intense involvement. [Trivia: Who was the first American killed in Vietnam? What year?]

Remember, just because Z was [probably] from the Bay Area, and very well could have returned there following a stint in the military and Vietnam, doesn't necessarily mean that he was in the Navy; he could just have easily volunteered for any branch of the military. This brings up something else to ponder: If the Z was in the military during the Vietnam War, did he volunteer, or was he drafted? Also, just because he was in the military at the time wouldn't necessarily mean that he was ever deployed to Vietnam, especially if he hadn't been drafted.

A side note: Just in case it comes up or somehow makes a difference: Chances were about 99.9% certain that you'd end-up with an infantry assignment if you were drafted instead of having volunteered for service during the Vietnam Conflict. In other words, allowing yourself to be drafted as opposed to volunteering essentially insured that you'd see combat. That is why the military is now much more effective as an all-voluntary institution: You don't have to "go" infantry unless that is what you desire. Lessons learned, my friends, lessons learned.

So, assuming that the Z was in the military during the Vietnam War, is it possible to establish whether or not he volunteered or was drafted? And did he actually ever get rotated to Vietnam while he was in the military?

Keep in mind that I am essentially thinking out loud at the moment. Thoughts?

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-19-98.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.154.19.98) on Thursday, October 31, 2002 - 08:44 am:

I am focussing on Navy because that seems to be the most likely Z background. But that covers a lot of territory, including CBs, Marines and Corpsmen. I am also facussing on Khe Sanh because of the timing leading up to late '68, as well as that intriguing photo of the composite lookalike in the CB club.

Scott: First American killed in Vitetnam was Sept. 26, 1945. OSS Major A. Peter Dewey.
First killed in US War in Vietnam was
Tech Sgt Richard B. Fitzgibbon, Nov 1 1955.

I believe you mean 7/1 Air Cav (7th Squadron, 1st Air Cav (a/k/a Big Red One, a/k/a/ Death from Above) which was part of The Delta Aviation Group (164TH CAG) formed 20 DEC. 1967

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-20-197.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.154.20.197) on Friday, November 01, 2002 - 07:11 am:

Read the rest of my posts on this subject. If there ever was proof that war-related PTSD can bring about homicidal acting out, Manny Babbitt is it. Other Nam vets I have talked to have experienced homicidal urges but have sought help first and never acted on them. One in particular I talked to went through this in 1990, over twenty years after his rotation.

Others wigged out in-country. Read up on "fragging": a lot of it was not just removing hated leaders, but PTSD induced. So it seems likely to me that a PTSD victim, or someone with a similar pathology could have gone through it soon after returning, beginning at the end of 68.

By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p50-171.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 159.134.50.171) on Friday, November 01, 2002 - 07:36 am:

Just some general data which may or may not be helpful.

"Many people with PTSD repeatedly re-experience the ordeal in the form of flashback episodes,memories,night frightening thoughts,especially when when they are exposed to events or objects reminiscent of the trauma.Anniversaries of the event can trigger symptoms.People with PTSD also experience emotional numbness and sleep disturbed depression,anxiety,and irritability or outbursts of anger.Feelings of intense guilt are also common.Most people with PSTD try to avoid any reminders or thoughts of the ordeal.PSTD is diagnosed when symptoms last more than 6 months.
Symptoms typically begin within 3 months of a Traumatic event although occasionally they do not begin until years later.
About 30% of men and women who have spent time in war zones experience PTSD.One million war veterns developed PTSD after serving in Vietnam."

I'm only reading this as a layperson,but does it fit? "Most stay away from reminders" obviously those that suffer from it are not in control of the timing of symptoms. Given other evidence of Zodiac killing on weekends only,implying he did have a job perhaps.I do not know does this make Manny Babbit the rule or the exception?

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-17-182.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.154.17.182) on Friday, November 01, 2002 - 08:48 am:

Lapumo:

Good information. Helpful indeed. And yes, it sure does fit. The seige of Khe Sanh began about 20 January 68, and the Tet offensive January 30. Tet was turned back on most fronts within weeks, but the Seige of Khe Sanh lasted about 77 days, and the base was not fully secured until about July, when both Marine and CB contingents began rotations back to the world in large numbers. Troops after Tet68 were probably the most demoralized of any at any time during the war. Timing is exactly correct for a PTSD victim to lose it as the holidays came on at the end of the year. Returns to Claifornia between July and October, symptoms set in within three months and worsen for tyhe next ten to twelve

I can only assume that the pattern seen at Khe Sanh holds true at least to a degree fro vets from other bases; Quang Tri, Danang, etc. But was probably most intense at Khe Sanh: A few thousand Marines and a few Naval Shore units and 30-50 SeaBees surronded by 35,000 and then 50,000 NVA regulars for three months. 2,000 wounded and believe about 450 KIA.

I don't think Manny was the exception in terms of whether PTSD can include homicidal urges or even blacked out spells of violence. It may be the exception in the extremity of the behavior. But out of 3,500-4,000 similarly traumatized vets, somany of whom left the base with what was known as "the thousand-yard stare", what are the odds there is one and only one like him?

the details of Manny's crime are also quite enlightening. Manny was apparently "souveniring", a Viiet NAm era GI term for ransacking and taking personal belonging in house to house search and destroy missions. He returned home with monet and personal effects of the victim. He was unarmed, but one report says the victim was watching a war movie when he broke in on her. Deadly combinatin: a marine on a flashback souveniring mission stumbles on a war movie sound track just at the momen he enters the hut . . .

A little more Zynchronicity, Manny Babbit was turned in by his brother, Bill, who discovered the evidence of his crime, and went through the agony of turning his brother with the idea that he would finally get the help he needed. Bill Babbitt and David Kazynski have since become friends and supporters of each others' causes.

By Lapumo (Lapumo) (p50-171.as1.clm.clonmel.eircom.net - 159.134.50.171) on Friday, November 01, 2002 - 09:12 am:

I guess it's worth looking into at least.The problem is I do not see the real link between Bobbit and Zodiac or for that matter between PTSD and Zodiac as it's put forward.
Bobbit was responsible for the death of one elderly woman during a "flashback".His condition
deteriorated because it went untreated.The symptoms of PSTD are wide and varied.Like you say many of these guys had that "thousand yard stare".
Many thousand also were unable to hold down steady jobs or even work at all.When we see Zodiac killing on weekends only,writing letters and codes over an extended intense period,makes me wonder how capable such a sufferer could be.
Zodiac appeared in control..relatively speaking:)

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-17-125.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.154.17.125) on Friday, November 01, 2002 - 09:27 am:

More control than Manny, certainly. But a lot less control than hundreds of PTSD victims who never act out. Look at the Belli letter in particular. Its all aboput controll, almost stop me before I kill again. Brings us back around to the sniper. Whatever his story turns out to be, it seems increasingly clear that it has something to do with his military experience. Charles Whitman, the Texas Tower Sniper, was also ex-marinee. No combat, but nothing but trouble in the corps and eventually washed out a failure. a lot of anger at both the Military and academia, the arenas of two total personal failures.

By Alan Cabal (Alan_Cabal) (67.sanfrancisco-12rh16rt-ca.dial-access.att.net - 12.81.119.67) on Friday, November 01, 2002 - 11:18 am:

Whitman also had a brain tumor.

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-19-180.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.154.19.180) on Friday, November 01, 2002 - 11:48 am:

Alan:

Yes, described as "a very small tumor" and ruled out by all examining physicians as related to his mental condition.

By Alan Cabal (Alan_Cabal) (53.sanfrancisco-12rh16rt-ca.dial-access.att.net - 12.81.119.53) on Friday, November 01, 2002 - 04:45 pm:

Yeah, well, I guess it ain't the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog. Who really knows what Charlie Whitman's brain tumor had to do with his rampage?

By William Baker (Bill_Baker) (lsanca1-ar16-4-47-002-193.lsanca1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net - 4.47.2.193) on Friday, November 01, 2002 - 05:09 pm:

Alan, wouldn't the location within the brain of the tumor, however small, determine what functions might be compromised? That may well be why the examining physicians ruled it out as the cause of his murderous behavior. No cabal, whoops, I mean no conspiracy there.

By Muskogee (Muskogee) (216-19-219-89.getnet.net - 216.19.219.89) on Friday, November 01, 2002 - 06:16 pm:

A tumor in the limbic system could certainly cause inability to control rage. However, I don't know anything about Whitman's brain (other that I had heard he had organic pathology), so I can't comment on his case. Interestingly, my parents were both students there at UT when he was sniping.

By Alan Cabal (Alan_Cabal) (12.81.121.124) on Friday, November 01, 2002 - 06:25 pm:

I wasn't implying a conspiracy between Whitman and his neurotropic teratoma, Bill. Just suggesting that maybe less was known then than is now regarding brain function.

And I'm glad to see you respecting my intellectual copyright on the word "cabal." I can't tell you how it galls me to see it bandied about the way it has been lately. This is why I always say "Bush Junta" or "Bush Crime Family." To see my name juxtaposed with the name of That Vile Lineage appalls me, it really does.

By Nick (Nick) (216.52.215.232) on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 02:10 am:

As evidenced by his words and actions, the Zodiac was stone-cold. Here's a man who seemed to have a complete emotional detachment to the act of killing. That's not true of your typical sociopath. Some feel guilt, some get a hard on. The point is they feel someting. Z had ice running through his viens.

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-17-121.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.154.17.121) on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 06:06 am:

Let's suppose that the tumor had everything to do with hsi mental condition. If he had been say an elementary school music instructor, chess fanatic and poet, instead of a washed out Marine, is it likely he would have acted out his angst with a footlocker full of weapons?

By William Baker (Bill_Baker) (lsanca1-ar16-4-47-002-193.lsanca1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net - 4.47.2.193) on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 07:01 am:

Peter, I think killers and suicides both use whatever tools they have available and with which they feel most comfortable. Most cops end their own lives with a handgun. Live by the sword . . .

By Muskogee (Muskogee) (216-19-219-89.getnet.net - 216.19.219.89) on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 07:48 am:

Peter, you raise an interesting question. I think it's too complex to yield a simple answer. You're talking about the interplay between the brain, environment, learning, and behavior. I think you're right that an elementary music school teacher is less likely than an ex-Marine to start shooting people, but I don't think it's implausible.

Bill makes a good point about killing using the means you feel comfortable with. Nurses traditionally murder with medication overdoses or poisons. However, as the recent U of A shooter and nursing student proved, individuals can certainly vary from this stereotype.

I guess what I'm trying to say with my rambling is that I agree with you, Peter, that there is certainly more than one factor that contributes to the mechanism of a person's murderous rampage.

Meanwhile, I'm going to watch out for any disgruntled chess players carrying a rook in a menacing fashion... ;)

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (102.philadelphia01rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 12.90.16.102) on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 08:29 am:

Peter, how do you explain Kaczynski with his chestful of weapons and excellent shooting skills? The closest Ted ever got to the military was undoubtedly an army surplus store. A person doesn't have to possess a military background to become proficient in weapons use. In fact, as Mike Kelleher has observed, a military background is incompatible with the personality type of a killer who obviously has very deep-seated problems with socializing.

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-17-121.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.154.17.121) on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 08:47 am:

Douglas:

Interestng questions. "Mike Kelleher has observed, a military background is incompatible with the personality type of a killer who obviously has very deep-seated problems with socializing." Really. Then who are all those guys at Leavenworth? How would Kelleher explain Timothy McVeigh, Manny Babbitt and John Muhammad? Mike's got to be kidding, the military is full of social misfits. Difficulty socializing is PTSD 101a.

As far as Kascynski goes, I didn't say some other kind of nut couldn't also get inbto heavy weaponry: there are hunters and backwoods types out there, too. In fact, the Rockies and PNW are full of them. I think the bombs were a much bigger party of TKs deal than firearms, in any event. The shooting, if it was TKs work appears to have been a much morre practical, defensive consideration than his basic MO.

By Douglas Oswell (Dowland) (64.philadelphia06rh.15.pa.dial-access.att.net - 12.90.26.64) on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 11:31 am:

Peter, there's a difference between the type you're talking about and the pathologically asocial such as Kaczynski, whose inability to function socially leads to extreme sexual ineptitude. The type of people you're considering are basically what's known as "assholes." People like Kaczynski are best described as "basket-cases."

By Alan Cabal (Alan_Cabal) (12.81.120.156) on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 04:10 pm:

Then there are (former) street punks like myself, who get proficient with certain firearms and develop an interest in them but view shooting people as a basically dumb thing that attracts unwanted attention. I carried a gun for 12 years, pulled it 3 times and managed to never actually have to shoot anybody, thank God & Mr. Colt.

Serial killers and these mass and spree loons tend not to come off the street. The experience of street life either puts you in the system, kills you, or gives you a certain perspective on violence that makes unprovoked violence unacceptable.

I've never killed anything bigger than a rat, nor do I intend to. Well, maybe a pit bull, there's a cat-killin' pit in a junkyard near here...

By Ed N. (Ed_N) (acadcc0a.ipt.aol.com - 172.173.204.10) on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 11:01 pm:

At the Wherehouse several months back I spotted an 1969 TV movie on DVD entitled The Ballad Of Andy Crocker starring Lee Majors, where he was a Vietnam vet returning home. According to the back cover (as I recall), it was the first Vietnam-related movie ever made. Whether he suffered from PTSD or not, I don't know, I didn't buy it (I wish I did). However, it's available at MoviesUnlimited.com. It would certainly be interesting to see if that was depicted or not, because, if so, that would indicate that, as early as 1969, PTSD was known to be affecting vets, as Z possibly was.

By Nick (Nick) (216.52.215.232) on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 01:43 am:

No one is born a stone-cold killer. It's a learned trait. That's the only inference I'm making.

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (cache-ntc-af07.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.26.172) on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 10:54 am:

Peter, you wrote, "I believe you mean 7/1 Air Cav . . ."

Nope. I mean precisely what I wrote, "1/7 Air Calvary."

What this designates is the following: 1st Battalion, 7th Calvary Regiment, 1st Calvary Division.

Nick,
You are absolutely right, in my opinion, though it might depend on how badly the child was abused while still in the womb.

Serial killers are a cultural breed; it's not in their nature to murder people, but the way they are nurtured is crucial and particular to their psychology, especially at the developmental stages in their lives.

Here's something to ponder: How many veterans of the Vietnam War who suffer from PTSD were drafted as opposed to having volunteered for service in the military? Personally, I don't know the actual figures, but I'd wager a buck or two that the majority were draftees. [Lessons learned: Don't put men on the battlefield who are under trained, less prepared, and don't possess the desire to be there.] If the Zodiac was a Vietnam War veteran who returned home with a severe case of PTSD, was he a volunteer or a draftee?

Also, isn't it possible that Z could have been affiliated with the military in some capacity without necessarily being a sufferer of PTSD? After all, it's not as if PTSD is a prerequisite for military veterans who've committed murder. Nevertheless, it seems very possible that PTSD [which I imagine is something that any combat veteran would suffer from to some degree] would have an especially negative affect on someone with a sociological -- not biological -- predisposition for violence.

Until later.

By Mike (Oklahoma_Mike) (66.138.8.114) on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 11:10 am:

Ed, I am actually old enough to have watched "The Ballad of Andy Crocker" on the ABC Tuesday night TV movie (they actually did a fair number of decent made for TV movies on that show, along with
all the typical drivel) and remember it was pretty good. It was about his inability to readjust to civilian life but he did not go on any murderous rampages, but it showed a short-temper as one consequence. I remember the ending, but won't tell you in case you watch it.
To all on this thread, the type of crimes Z committed do not strike me as motivated by someone with PTSD. When a victim of PTSD does become violent (and all of them don't) they do not usually manifest it with PLANNED crimes, they are usually sudden outbursts involving some type of confrontation or stimulated by an actual flashback. I saw a number of PTSD Vietnam Vets back in the 80's and early 90's and while the possibility of violence was there it never had the quality of danger one would assoiate with serial killers. That doesn't mean a serial killer could not be influenced by military (or other training) but I would be sceptical of PTSD as a cause. I have always thought that if Zodiac had any mental illness it was more likely bipolar disorder (or at that time, manic-depressive), but that's another thread

By Ed N. (Ed_N) (pluto.cds1.net - 216.174.197.132) on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 10:23 pm:

Perhaps it wasn't so much PTSD as it was Z developing a taste for killing others while he was in 'Nam, and he thought he'd get a few more kicks in before permanently "retiring" now that he had returned home.

I think we can all agree that Z himself, much like the case, was almost certainly a complex individual with perhaps many influences in his life that were reflected in his crimes (such as possibly Batman, The Most Dangerous Game, etc etc). The idea of Z being a Vietnam vet (PTSD or not) added to the mix certainly makes things more interesting now, and I think the theory has merit; perhaps, rather than "Could The Zodiac Have Suffered From PTSD," it should be, "Was the Zodiac a Vietnam veteran?"

By Nick (Nick) (216.52.215.232) on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 01:00 am:

All I'm really saying is that it would be incomprehensible for investigators not to explore the combat veteran angle. And for all I know they did. How else do you come up with 2500 suspects. Sure there are born and reared sociopathic killers. Typically, there's one or two for every 100,000 of us. During wartime, however, the ratio goes way up as the military trains your everyday Joe to become a sociopathic killer. How else are you gonna win a war. I'm not saying the Zodiac was PTSD, or even military, but why not play the odds.

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-17-121.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.154.17.121) on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 03:06 am:

Scott:

OK, but the 1/7 is not AIR Cav. Its the good old 7th Cavalry, as in Little Big Horn. Earliest date I can find in Nam is 1965. Of course they were insertd and extracted by chopper, but I believe Air Cav in Viet Nam was a combat air designation: Huey gunships and Apache attack choppers. Hey, check out your spelling of Cavalry, too. Freudian?

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-17-121.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.154.17.121) on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 03:27 am:

Scott: or did you mean 1st Battallion, 7th Regiment !st Cav Airmobile, which would the 1/7th, 1st Air Cav? First KIA also 1965

By Howard Davis (Howard) (dsl-gte-19167.linkline.com - 64.30.222.109) on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 09:42 pm:

Daniel Amen, M.D. is world authority on ADD.Dr.Amen is one of the few scientists in the world licensed in doing nuclear brain imaging and pioneered the use of brain imaging in psychiatry.
He has written many books on the subject and they are all excellent(see his site).He is a pioneer in using brain SPECT scans(over 11,000 thus far!)and he has developed 6 classifications of differing ADD types.
Zodiac, from what we know of his letter/crimes, is probably in number six(commonly called the Ring of Fire ADD).It seems to fit him ,at least from what we know of his public persona.There could be some over lap into other classifications.
Read Dr.Amens research and see what section you can place Zodiac.

By Nick (Nick) (216.52.215.232) on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 12:11 am:

The biggest misconception about ADD is that it's a children's disorder. I once asked the doctor who was treating my son at what age he grow out of it. He looked at me with the same frustrated stare he's probably given to a thousand other parents. It was like, man, you just don't get it.

Based on the criteria put forth by Dr. Amen, I would probably categorize the Zodiac as a type 4 or 6 who also abused stimulant narcotics during his short stretch of mayhem.

By Alan Cabal (Alan_Cabal) (12.81.121.95) on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 08:05 am:

Adult ADD subjects with a penchant for self-medication tend to favor methamphetamine. It gives them focus, just as its chemical cousin Ritalin does with children.

Of course, it also makes them psychotic, and alternatively priapic and impotent, but those little details tend to get lost in the rush...

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (cache-ntc-af07.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.26.172) on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 01:17 pm:

Peter wrote, "Hey, check out your spelling of Cavalry, too. Freudian?"

Perhaps it is, after all, the men of the 1/7 Air Cavalry were essentially used in a style of combat that was very experimental at the time. Perhaps some of the first casualties can be thought of as sacrificial.

The battles that were fought in the Central Highlands of Vietnam were extremely bloody and ferocious. Peter has talked about the Seabees who survived the siege of Khe Sahn, but I think that men of the 1/7 Air Cavalry and the 173rd Airborne should also be closely scrutinized. These fellas saw tons of combat very early in the war [starting in 1965] against hardcore NVA in the Central Highlands. I guarantee that more than a few of them ended up having to deal with PTSD later in their lives; not all of them coped in the same way, I'm sure.

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-17-30.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.154.17.30) on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 08:36 am:

Scott: I would love to follow up on this, but I cant figure exacylt what unit you mean by the 1/7 Air Cav. Do you mean the 1/7th 1st Cavalry Airmobile? (Gave you some bum info before: "Death From Above" was 101 Airborne, and Big Red One is of course 1st Infantry, not air cav)

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (cache-ntc-af07.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.26.172) on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 09:37 am:

Peter: 1st Battalion, 7th Cavalry Regiment, 1st Cavalry Division . . . Airmobile, my friend.

Link: 1st Cavalry Division.

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (cache-ntc-af07.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.26.172) on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 09:45 am:

Link #2: 1st Cavalry Division.

By Scott Bullock (Scott_Bullock) (cache-ntc-af07.proxy.aol.com - 198.81.26.172) on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 09:49 am:

Link #3: 1st Cavalry Division - Vietnam.

By Peter H (Peter_H) (pool-141-154-17-65.bos.east.verizon.net - 141.154.17.65) on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 12:44 pm:

Got it. a/k/a 1/7 1st Air Cav. a/k/a/ most decorated unit in the war.